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Originally posted by barbaros45:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yes, there are those who wear the Christian hat and claim to have faith -- and do not. There are "social Christian" who go to church on Sunday just to make sure other folks see them there. "Mustn't let folks think we are not good Christians!" But, their relationship with God ends as soon as they walk out of church Sunday morning. But, not to worry, they will pick up their Christian hat and be on time next Sunday. And, this is not only the laymen; you will also find pastors, elders, and other church leaders in that group.
Bill, Bill, Bill*, What a crock! (*You remind me of Mr. Bill on SNL) How in heck do you know this? Here again you are making a judgment call, assuming a adjudication that is clearly above your mental and/or spiritual capabilities. Come on down here with the rest of us, and just be happy they are in church, regardless of their intent.
Hi Barbara,
Yes, I can speak first hand of folks who will attend church and not truly be believing Christians. I did this for fifty years. During those years, if anyone asked if I were a Christian, my answer was a very quick,
"Yes, absolutely. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I have attended many churches -- starting with the Baptist and Methodist churches while a teenager in Sheffield. Alabama is the heart of the Bible Belt. Of course, I am a Christian!" But, to be honest with you, I had no idea what a Christian was nor what made a person a Christian. Attending church does not make one a Christian. Intellectually believing in God and Jesus does not make one a Christian. Being born and raised in the Bible Belt South does not make one a Christian. Reading the Bible intellectually does not make one a Christian.
So, what does make one a Christian? Glad you asked. A person becomes a Christian believer when, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- a person sincerely invites, asks, Jesus Christ to come into his/her life and become his/her personal Lord, Savior, and Master (Revelation 3:20). That is the beginning. At that point a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is a believer; albeit, an infant believer. We call such a person a
"babe in Christ." Then, over the years, as that person become involved in a local fellowship, gets involved in corporate Bible study and other study groups such as Sunday School -- the person begins to mature into a solid Christian believer, a Christ Follower.
Billy Graham in his Crusades and now Greg Laurie in his Harvest Crusades does not call a person who comes forward at one of the events a convert, i.e., a believer. These people are called "inquirers." These "inquirers" are guided toward a local church fellowship and encouraged to get involved. Then, as Billy Graham tells us, after several years of consistent involvement in a local church fellowship -- then, that person can be called a convert, a true believer. Why do Billy Graham and Greg Laurie say this? Because they know that many people get caught up in the emotion of the moment and come forward at a Crusade; or they follow a friend and come forward -- and the next day, after the emotion has cooled -- they go back to their worldly lifestyle and forget all about what they did. Then, maybe next year, at the next Crusade, they will do the same thing all over again. These are not Christian believers; but, instead are people who are riding an emotional roller coaster.
Yes, for fifty years I was Bill "sure I am a Christian" Gray -- as I hit the night clubs in search of good scotch and wild women.
Then, praise God, I met a Godly man, a pastor, who showed the real way to become a Christian believer. That happened in 1987 -- and since then, I can truly say,
"Yes, I am a Christian believer. I am a Christ Follower." Have I known some of these "social Christians" and "networking Christians"? You bet I have. I have known people who would tell you,
"I was saved when I was twelve years old." And, follow that with an invitation to go bar hopping and chasing women.
I have known people who would "farm a church." What do I mean by this? These are people who will come into a church and immediately, instead of sharing God and salvation -- would start the hard sell for their insurance, real estate, or whatever other products they had to sell. At one church where I was a leader, the finance officer called a meeting of our church leaders and had her friend come in to give a pitch about how much money we could make for the church if we would push all our members to use his telephone/communication service. His company would give a certain percentage back to the church.
After his pitch, I spoke up and told him that when people come to our church they are coming to hear the Gospel, not to be sold telephone/communication services. Thanks, but, no thanks. And the pastor and others went along with me.
I can still see two particular couples who came to our church a few years ago, to farm it for their insurance business. The pastor put a stop to it -- and they moved on to a larger church with more farming potential. No way they would stay at our church if they could not farm it for their business. Now, what would you call these folks?
Yes, Barbara, I have seen a lot of "social and networking" Christians (?) -- but, praise God, I have seen a lot more of the real thing. And, it is with those people that we grow in our walk with the Lord.
Am I saying that I do not want non-believers and the "Social" Christians in our church? Absolutely not. A church which consistently has only believers in our services -- is
"preaching to the choir." The main purpose of the church should be, and must be, to reach the non-believers, the unchurched -- and tell them about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The unbeliever should be the main thrust of all Christian churches. Otherwise, we are not doing what Jesus instructed us:
"Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them" (Matthew 28:19-20) and
"Be My witness to all the world" (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).
No, Barbara, I am not trying to judge anyone, nor am I trying to act holier than others. I am merely stating a fact that I know to be true -- that not all who sit in the pews, or stand in the pulpits, wearing their Christian hats -- are Christian. Should we be trying to reach these folks? Absolutely! That should be our main goal -- to reach them and other non-believers. However, if their actions tend to disrupt the church -- such as the "networkers" and "farmers" -- we have to step in and put a stop to that activity.
My wife has been a real estate broker for over thirty years. Yet, I would get very upset with her if she were to start trying to farm our church. If a person comes up and asks her a real estate question, she should give an answer. If there is serious business to discuss; schedule a time outside our church time for this. Church is for worshiping God, enjoying fellowship with other believers, and doing what we can to reach the non-believer -- not for selling products.
I pray that you have a better understanding of how I feel and my understanding of our Christian faith.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill