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In another topic, Bill Gray made a comment about my being a non-believer. That comment brought something to mind that I would like everyone's opinion on.
I can't say for a fact that God/Jesus does/does not exist. If anyone can prove He does or does not, to my satisfaction, I would be open to hearing the proof.
For those of you that want to prove to me he does, I do not want scriptures from the Bible saying He exist. If one has doubts about God, then of course, there would be doubts about the Bible.

My husband believes in healing. I would like to know of one. I'm not talking about healing of a headache/toothache. I'm talking about a real healing, as coming off the deathbed healed. I want to talk with this person, not just be told it happened.

I was in a Holiness church one time & a girl was being prayed for not being able to hear in one ear. After having "hands laid on her" & people babbling in an unknown tongue, she said she was healed, that she could hear out of an ear she hadn't heard out of in years.
Couple of years later, I heard her say she couldn't hear out of one ear. I questioned her as to that night she proclaimed to be healed. She said she felt she should "claim" the healing. In doing that she was showing faith that God would heal her later, though not right then. As of today, she still hasn't been healed.
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Hi Chick,

You say, "In another topic, Bill Gray made a comment about my being a non-believer. That comment brought something to mind that I would like everyone's opinion on. I can't say for a fact that God/Jesus does/does not exist. If anyone can prove He does or does not, to my satisfaction, I would be open to hearing the proof."

The fact that you do not know whether God -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- do indeed exist testifies that you are truly a non-believer. It sounds as though you are an agnostic
(nor sure one way or the other) -- possibly heading toward atheism (convinced that God does not exist).

You keep asking for someone to offer you proof -- to your satisfaction -- that God exists. Why should God want to satisfy your curiosity? He has offered you the greatest, most expensive gift in the world -- eternal salvation paid for by the blood of His Son. If you turn your nose up at that; why should He care what else you believe or do not believe?

And, once again, I ask you what proof are you seeking? What bar have you set -- that God must pass over to prove Himself to you?

Then, you say, "For those of you that want to prove to me he does, I do not want scriptures from the Bible saying He exist. If one has doubts about God, then of course, there would be doubts about the Bible."

That is like asking an engineer to prove that electricity is real -- but, do not use any science books. And, Jerk has given a good example -- the atom. We cannot see inside it -- but, we do know it is real and we know how it functions. We cannot physically see God -- but, we know He is real and we know how He functions.

You have put your own blinders on, yelling, "Don't show me the Bible!" Why? What do you fear? Are you afraid it could make a difference in your life? Are you afraid the Bible will change your life if you crack the door and let it into your life?

Next, you say, "My husband believes in healing. I would like to know of one. I'm not talking about healing of a headache/toothache. I'm talking about a real healing, as coming off the deathbed healed. I want to talk with this person, not just be told it happened."

You are attempting to set the bar so high -- hoping that no one could possibly lift God that high. Well, rest well -- no one can; but, God Himself can surpass any bar you set for Him. Actually, it appears you are not setting a bar -- but, instead you are building a wall around yourself -- to keep God out. Not to worry; God will not break down you wall -- you will have to do that yourself.

Have I a seen a true deathbed healing? Yes. My friend, Lolita Mueller, underwent exploratory surgery for cancer. My friend, Nattie Almeda, was the OR nurse during that operation. She came to our Friday Night Bible study and told us that when the doctor opened Lolita that afternoon -- her body was so full of cancer that all he could do was to close her. There was no humanly way he could treat her to forestall the inevitable -- she was going to die -- soon. We asked Nattie how long she had and were told, "A few weeks, maybe a month at most."

A lot of people began to pray for Lolita. Six months later, she was well enough to do church office work at home. A year later, she was back in church directing our choir -- which she did for another six years. Here was a woman who, by all human efforts, should have been dead within weeks. Yet, she lived another seven, very productive years. How did this happen? It was not the doctors; so, it must have been God.

Yes, Chick, I have personally seen a deathbed healing. God is real -- and He is awesome!

Finally, you tell us, "I was in a Holiness church one time & a girl was being prayed for not being able to hear in one ear. After having "hands laid on her" & people babbling in an unknown tongue, she said she was healed, that she could hear out of an ear she hadn't heard out of in years. Couple of years later, I heard her say she couldn't hear out of one ear. I questioned her as to that night she proclaimed to be healed. She said she felt she should "claim" the healing. In doing that she was showing faith that God would heal her later, though not right then. As of today, she still hasn't been healed."

Yes, I can see how this can happen. A similar thing happened to me at a Nazarene church in Sheffield when I was a young boy. To make her happy, I went with my mom and step-dad to a Wednesday night Revival Meeting. During the service the traveling revival preacher told us all to stand up. Then he said, "All who are saved can sit down." I was not a Christian; but, I was not going to lie about it and sit -- so, I stayed standing. Then, he told us, "Just keep standing there until you decide to come forward and be saved." Obviously he needed to meet his quota that week -- and drastic steps were needed..

If that had happened when I was an adult, I would have waved goodbye with one finger and walked out. But, as a young boy, I did not know what to do -- so, I went forward. They "laid hands" on me and began to pray, working up a real fever pitch -- and I will admit that I was moved. I was caught up in the emotions of the moment -- and really thought I had been saved. Then, I went home and, that night, laying in bed I had some very unChristian thoughts about some of the girls I knew. This really blew my mind -- how could I have just been saved and still have these thoughts? That put my self image in the bottom of the well -- and I ran from God until I was fifty years old -- all because the revival preacher needed to meet his quota of saved souls for the week.

I can see how you friend could have been drawn into the "healing fever" of the moment and truly believe she had been healed -- when, in fact, she had possibly met the same revival preacher, or his son, that I encountered in my childhood.

We will always have these charlatans around who are playing loose with the Gospel for various reasons. We see television preachers every day who are out to make the almighty dollar -- and most are doing very well financially. However, I would not want to be in their shoes when they stand before the Lord whom they have mocked with their money making charades.

Yes, Chick, God is real. And, one day when you begin to "tear down that wall!" -- and let Him penetrate your Iron Curtain -- you, too, will have the faith to believe in what you cannot see (Hebrews 11:1).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, if I were convinced God doesn’t exist, why would I be asking? Several times in past years, I have heard peope make the comment that “God showed himself to them”, or that they “felt his presence”. Why can’t he do the same for me?
Why should He satisfy my curiosity? Simply because I would like to know. He has evidently satisfied the curiosity of others, why not mine?
The offering of eternal salvation you say He paid for by the blood of His Son is told in a book that many men wrote. I have read many books, but just because I read it doesn’t make it true.
I do not fear the Bible. I’ve cracked it open many times. I was asking for something else, not a scripture in the Bible. I’ve read it, I know what it says.
As far as electricity being real, I know it is. All you have to do is touch something with electricity running thru it & you’ll feel it right away.
As far as God not breaking down any wall, I’ve heard others say He does, & has.
As to the deathbed healing you saw, why doesn’t it happen more often? A lady my husband goes to church with recently died of cancer, after months of people praying for her. Why was she not healed?
The girl that claimed a healing for her ear wasn’t in a revival; it was a typical Wednesday night service.
You ask the question why should God care what I believe or do not believe? That kind of jumped out at me to confirm what I already thought. Evidently He doesn’t care
Freida,
Our pastor recently brought something to our attention. The verse from which you quoted goes,
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened."
Look at the first letter of the three words, "Ask," "Seek," and "Knock." A-S-K.
This verse appears in Matthew 7:7 and Luke 11:9
semi,
Are you asking merely out of curiosity, or are you asking out of faith? Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains. If you were fluent in Spanish, I'd tell you to call an elderly man in Cosa Rica named Rafael. Rafael was healed of tumor in his abdomen a few months ago. His healing has astounded his physician. Cancerous tumors don't just "go away" instantaneously. Rafael had been dealing with sleep deprivation from all the pain he was having. The night after God healed him, he reported sleeping better than he had in a very long time. God had just healed Rafael's soul before He healed his body.
When I post this, some of you may recognize the events which I describe and know my real identity.

In 2006, my son had a series of setback, associated with his birth defect. On the morning of December 7th, when I went to wake him up for the day, I found him unresponsive. He was rushed to a local hospital, stabilized and flown to Children’s Hospital in Birmingham for additional treatment that included emergency surgery.

On the following morning, he crashed again while in PICU. A MRI revealed that he had sustained a brain stem injury in the area that controls the majority of his body systems. The injury detected was so severe, that my wife and I were told, that nothing else could be done for him and we were asked to consider taking him off of life support. By this time, he was totally care dependant and a vegetated state.

That was over 3 years ago and today he is an active, alert and independent young man. Even though he remains a paraplegic since birth, he is stronger than he was prior to the events of 2006.

During the events of December 2006, there were two stories in which he shared with us of his experiences during this time. One being of overhearing the doctors while making group rounds; discussing how serious his prognosis was and of his determination to prove them wrong by thinking “not if I can help it.”

The other being a story of a mysterious doctor who visited with him by his bedside during the overnight hours; even though no one else ever saw this mysterious doctor.

We saw his neurosurgeon today for the latest re-check. Contrary to what I know personally about birth defect and medical care, treatment, diagnosis and his prognosis; he continues to defy all medical odds and possibilities, because we have been told repeatedly that no one ever reverses like he has. At least not until they witnessed the miracles which we have with him.

During my life, I have seen many who received fatal injuries, but for some unknown reason have survived. I have also encountered many with survival injuries and illnesses, who have died. I truly believe that the unlocked secrets of the brain play a key factor in healing. The rest is up your personal faith, belief and convictions.
Stinky, thank you for sharing this about your son. This part made chills run over me from head to toe. “a mysterious doctor who visited with him by his bedside during the overnight hours; even though no one else ever saw this mysterious doctor”.
The thought that went thru my mind that it was a visit from the “Great Physician”. Stupid thought coming from someone like me, isn’t it? Your son sounds like an amazing young man.
I wish him the best & again, thank you for sharing.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
semi,
Are you asking merely out of curiosity, or are you asking out of faith? Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains. If you were fluent in Spanish, I'd tell you to call an elderly man in Cosa Rica named Rafael. Rafael was healed of tumor in his abdomen a few months ago. His healing has astounded his physician. Cancerous tumors don't just "go away" instantaneously. Rafael had been dealing with sleep deprivation from all the pain he was having. The night after God healed him, he reported sleeping better than he had in a very long time. God had just healed Rafael's soul before He healed his body.



Curiosity or faith? I honestly don't know, though my guess would be curiosity since I don't know where the faith would come from.
Believe me when I say that the Faith of a mustard seed doesn't always work.
I wish I knew Spanish too, I would love to talk with Rafael.
Regarding the Existence of God, the proof or lack of it, is an issue that has been with mankind from the beginning. I think, whether or not people admit it or not, even staunch and adamant non-belivers, everyone has times that they wonder and doubt and yes seek answers to a greater being, a creator or God. Even Christians, who believe, have times that doubt creeps in so it works both ways. I believe, and I believe Scriptures teach that being human (man/woman) means we are flesh and spirit. Some call it a soul but I use the word spirit which is not physical. The body serves to support that inner spirit and the body/flesh is finite, limited, flawed, and will die and created by the union of male and female. The spirit, I believe is created of God and is eternal in it's nature and exist. lives on past the death of the fleshly body. Once death has come and the spirit continues it is in the Spiritual Realm, God's realm. I say all that for this reason. To a person that does not believe in God or has not experienced God's conviction, God's call, so to say, then God truly doesn't exist for they have no tangible proof that they can lay their hands upon. No empirical proof. I do though feel and believe that God, through His Holy Spirit, communicates with mankind (humans, man/woman) as they seek for God and to know God and are open to God speaking to them. That communication comes in a way that is supernatural and so profound that there is no question it is of a higher power, i.e. God. The Christian, upon that magical moment that they believe, through faith, accept Christ, as being the sacrifice for their sins receive a magical, supernatural, gift from God and that is God's Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their salvation that it is real. This Holy Spirit, God Himself, is of such a nature and overcoming that there is no longer any question or doubt remaining within the Christian's mind of whether God exist or not.

What I'm saying is that no one person can ever convince you that God exist or doesn't for that's impossible. We live in a physical world where science rules and defines that rules that govern our physical existence however God is Spirit and His is a Spiritual environment and existence which encompasses the physical but is far more expansive and greater and which cannot be sampled or tested by the physical or scientific means. The "proof" of God comes only when God reveals Himself (Himself used only as an expression as I believe God is nether Male or Female but Spirit) unto His creation, the person's inner Spirit/being and at that time only is God alive to the unbeliever, that very moment that God is convicting the person of their need to accept Him, accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

We believe God to be singular, a single God yet in three forms. Just as the I believe to be human means that we are Physical (body) mental (mind), spiritual (spirit/soul) and emotional .... or in the way that water can be in three forms .. liquid, gas, or solid GOD is one yet ministers and exist in three forms. God the Father ... God the Son ( Jesus Christ .. God come to earth as man .. God's spirit living within a mortal human body ... God the Holy Spirit which ministers directly to Man.

It is strictly a matter of faith .. belief in what we cannot see or touch but I do believe that God does reveal Himself to human man/woman and i do believe that God heals and in some cases still works miracles today due to people's beliefs and prayers and request.

Don't allow someone (a human) to turn you off to God but I do believe if you sincerely openly honestly seek God that He will reveal Himself to you and seek you out and at that time you will experience that which you seek and find the answers you want to find.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,

You say, "In another topic, Bill Gray made a comment about my being a non-believer. That comment brought something to mind that I would like everyone's opinion on. I can't say for a fact that God/Jesus does/does not exist. If anyone can prove He does or does not, to my satisfaction, I would be open to hearing the proof."

The fact that you do not know whether God -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- do indeed exist testifies that you are truly a non-believer. It sounds as though you are an agnostic
(nor sure one way or the other) -- possibly heading toward atheism (convinced that God does not exist).

You keep asking for someone to offer you proof -- to your satisfaction -- that God exists. Why should God want to satisfy your curiosity? He has offered you the greatest, most expensive gift in the world -- eternal salvation paid for by the blood of His Son. If you turn your nose up at that; why should He care what else you believe or do not believe?

And, once again, I ask you what proof are you seeking? What bar have you set -- that God must pass over to prove Himself to you?

Then, you say, "For those of you that want to prove to me he does, I do not want scriptures from the Bible saying He exist. If one has doubts about God, then of course, there would be doubts about the Bible."

That is like asking an engineer to prove that electricity is real -- but, do not use any science books. And, Jerk has given a good example -- the atom. We cannot see inside it -- but, we do know it is real and we know how it functions. We cannot physically see God -- but, we know He is real and we know how He functions.

You have put your own blinders on, yelling, "Don't show me the Bible!" Why? What do you fear? Are you afraid it could make a difference in your life? Are you afraid the Bible will change your life if you crack the door and let it into your life?

Next, you say, "My husband believes in healing. I would like to know of one. I'm not talking about healing of a headache/toothache. I'm talking about a real healing, as coming off the deathbed healed. I want to talk with this person, not just be told it happened."

You are attempting to set the bar so high -- hoping that no one could possibly lift God that high. Well, rest well -- no one can; but, God Himself can surpass any bar you set for Him. Actually, it appears you are not setting a bar -- but, instead you are building a wall around yourself -- to keep God out. Not to worry; God will not break down you wall -- you will have to do that yourself.

Have I a seen a true deathbed healing? Yes. My friend, Lolita Mueller, underwent exploratory surgery for cancer. My friend, Nattie Almeda, was the OR nurse during that operation. She came to our Friday Night Bible study and told us that when the doctor opened Lolita that afternoon -- her body was so full of cancer that all he could do was to close her. There was no humanly way he could treat her to forestall the inevitable -- she was going to die -- soon. We asked Nattie how long she had and were told, "A few weeks, maybe a month at most."

A lot of people began to pray for Lolita. Six months later, she was well enough to do church office work at home. A year later, she was back in church directing our choir -- which she did for another six years. Here was a woman who, by all human efforts, should have been dead within weeks. Yet, she lived another seven, very productive years. How did this happen? It was not the doctors; so, it must have been God.

Yes, Chick, I have personally seen a deathbed healing. God is real -- and He is awesome!

Finally, you tell us, "I was in a Holiness church one time & a girl was being prayed for not being able to hear in one ear. After having "hands laid on her" & people babbling in an unknown tongue, she said she was healed, that she could hear out of an ear she hadn't heard out of in years. Couple of years later, I heard her say she couldn't hear out of one ear. I questioned her as to that night she proclaimed to be healed. She said she felt she should "claim" the healing. In doing that she was showing faith that God would heal her later, though not right then. As of today, she still hasn't been healed."

Yes, I can see how this can happen. A similar thing happened to me at a Nazarene church in Sheffield when I was a young boy. To make her happy, I went with my mom and step-dad to a Wednesday night Revival Meeting. During the service the traveling revival preacher told us all to stand up. Then he said, "All who are saved can sit down." I was not a Christian; but, I was not going to lie about it and sit -- so, I stayed standing. Then, he told us, "Just keep standing there until you decide to come forward and be saved." Obviously he needed to meet his quota that week -- and drastic steps were needed..

If that had happened when I was an adult, I would have waved goodbye with one finger and walked out. But, as a young boy, I did not know what to do -- so, I went forward. They "laid hands" on me and began to pray, working up a real fever pitch -- and I will admit that I was moved. I was caught up in the emotions of the moment -- and really thought I had been saved. Then, I went home and, that night, laying in bed I had some very unChristian thoughts about some of the girls I knew. This really blew my mind -- how could I have just been saved and still have these thoughts? That put my self image in the bottom of the well -- and I ran from God until I was fifty years old -- all because the revival preacher needed to meet his quota of saved souls for the week.

I can see how you friend could have been drawn into the "healing fever" of the moment and truly believe she had been healed -- when, in fact, she had possibly met the same revival preacher, or his son, that I encountered in my childhood.

We will always have these charlatans around who are playing loose with the Gospel for various reasons. We see television preachers every day who are out to make the almighty dollar -- and most are doing very well financially. However, I would not want to be in their shoes when they stand before the Lord whom they have mocked with their money making charades.

Yes, Chick, God is real. And, one day when you begin to "tear down that wall!" -- and let Him penetrate your Iron Curtain -- you, too, will have the faith to believe in what you cannot see (Hebrews 11:1).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Hi Bill, Have you ever read "Salvation" by Langston Hughes? It is a short story and I think you may have met his evangelist. You have GOT to look it up and read it.
Hi Chick...My baby lived when he should have died. I don't want to give away my identity but we were told there would have been 0% chance of survival if we had been held up by one more redlight. (We drove our child to B'ham after a local Dr told us to get down there as fast as possible.) My son was bleeding internally at 7 months old. God was (and continues to be) amazing. I have learned that when all is lost..that is when God comes to your rescue. It was a rainstorm and I prayed that we could drive faster(than the 90 mph we were already going) To my utter amazement God absolutely open the skies and we drove the rest of the way on dry pavement. Now keep in mind this was in January (several years ago) and it had literally been raining for days...not a summer pop-up shower.
When you start believing God can do anything...He will utterly amaze you. Just a few months ago this same child (now an adult) was out of town with no insurance and called to say he was certain he had a kidney stone. I said Pray, take tylenol, and Drink gatorade . He was racked with pain as he called me from the store to by meds and gatorade. He called back two minutes later (without urinating ) to say that he was pain free . It was simply gone. He has had one before so he knew what it was. You may say it found a "happy spot". Well, there has been no return of the pain. I will give the glory to God and take the healing..thank you.
I think if with a sincere heart you seek God..He will definitely show Himself to you. I challenge you even to just break down the wall and ask Him into your heart. Ask Him to forgive you of your sins and come in and live..He will. When I asked Him in I was a teen and I was afraid of what others would think. I honestly did not tell anyone for weeks...but I was changed. It is really cool. Without even knowing what the Bible said about most anything the Holy Spirit Himself taught me stuff. (I was not raised in church.) He corrected me when I sinned and gently nudged me to do right. I found some activites around me repulsive. And watching TV as a new Christian was quite an eye-opening experience. Things I had never given two thoughts about were.. well...let's just say everything is changed. Thank you for bringing up this subject because I needed a boost to remind me of what God has brought me through. I may have given away my identity but it will be more than worth it if you find God.
I will be praying for you to find the answers you need.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
It is strictly a matter of faith

I wonder how many "Christians" if they were honest, would admit that they don't really have that faith? They say they do because they believe they will get it by saying they have it.

Hi Chick,

Yes, there are those who wear the Christian hat and claim to have faith -- and do not. There are "social Christian" who go to church on Sunday just to make sure other folks see them there. "Mustn't let folks think we are not good Christians!" But, their relationship with God ends as soon as they walk out of church Sunday morning. But, not to worry, they will pick up their Christian hat and be on time next Sunday. And, this is not only the laymen; you will also find pastors, elders, and other church leaders in that group.

But, a person who truly has a relationship with Jesus Christ -- has true faith. And, this faith includes having the Holy Spirit resident within us -- teaching us, guiding us, and convicting us the many times we stray and do not obey God's will. If the non-believer does something which goes against the teachings of God; most likely he/she will not even notice, nor care. However, when the Christian steps over that line -- the Holy Spirit is tugging inside, letting us know that we have strayed and need to set ourselves on the right path again.

Chick, before I was a Christian I traveled a lot on business. I cannot tell you how many nights I lay in a hotel room -- lonely, depressed, wanting peace. People had always told me to turn to God, turn to the Bible -- so, I would pick up the Gideon Bible which is in virtually all hotel rooms and try to read it. I could not get past a couple of verses before I was discouraged and put the Bible away. Why? Because I did not understand what I was reading; I could not make sense of what the Bible was saying -- it was literally like reading Greek.

Yet, after I became a Christian, after I had the Holy Spirit within me -- the Bible began to make more sense. It did not happen overnight; it was not a miraculous influx of Bible knowledge. But, the desire to learn more was now there; so, I wanted to attend Bible studies, I wanted to be in Sunday School classes, I wanted to be wherever Christians were discussing and studying the Bible. That desire has not lessened in the 22 years I have been a Christian; but, instead has grown. This is why you see me on the Forum and in other venues, wanting to discuss the Word of God with others.

Before, I used to be amazed that a person could spend four years in seminary -- studying one book, the Bible. I would wonder -- what in the world can one learn by studying the same book for four years? Now, I have been studying the Bible for over 22 years -- and every day, I learn something new. The Bible is a never ending book of knowledge and wisdom.

And, the beautiful thing is -- we will be learning for eternity. Yes, that is true. For eternity we believers will be learning. How do I know this? Well, only God knows all things. If we were to ever get to the point where we could no longer learn -- we would be Gods; and that will never happen. So, we will always be learning -- and that excites me beyond belief.

Chick, when one has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ -- we have begun wallking an eternal path of growing faith. Yet, faith is something you and I can have today. Yes, you may start with faith the size of a mustard seed. That is okay; just keep watering it and nurturing it -- and watch it grow. I pray that you will.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
If anyone can prove He does or does not, to my satisfaction, I would be open to hearing the proof.


This is something that the wisest among our race have been wrestling with as long as we have walked the earth. I don't think you'll ever find a logical proof for or against the existence of God, because I don’t think God designed love to be a mathematical equation. We are instructed to receive the kingdom of God as a little child -- by faith (a free act of the will).

However, there are plenty of clues if you are open to them. One such clue is near death experiences. There have been many such occurrences where people have told of being outside of their bodies and described what the medical staff were doing, in great detail, while working on them. And this is not tabloid fodder. This is a legit academic discipline. Check the University of Connecticut and the Journal of Near Death Studies.

It is not proof that God exists, but it is a clue that materialists have trouble explaining.
By Mr. Bill..
"Yes, there are those who wear the Christian hat and claim to have faith -- and do not. There are "social Christian" who go to church on Sunday just to make sure other folks see them there. "Mustn't let folks think we are not good Christians!" But, their relationship with God ends as soon as they walk out of church Sunday morning. But, not to worry, they will pick up their Christian hat and be on time next Sunday. And, this is not only the laymen; you will also find pastors, elders, and other church leaders in that group."


Bill, Bill, Bill*,
What a crock! (*You remind me of Mr. Bill on SNL)How in heck do you know this? Here again you are making a judgement call, assuming an ajudication that is clearly above your mental and/or spiritual capabilities. Come on down here with the rest of us, and just be happy they are in church, regardless of their intent.
Last edited by barbaros45
...if you believe there is great evil in this world, then you have to believe there is great good. The great evil manifests itself in daily newspaper and TV depictions, the great good is quieter, working inside the hearts and minds of peoples all over this great world. You have seen goodness work, it just doesn't make all the noise that evil does. God will not be put to a test, to see if he is there. But you feel his presence everytime you do a good deed. That "feeling" you have comes from your heavenly father.
quote:
Originally posted by barbaros45:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yes, there are those who wear the Christian hat and claim to have faith -- and do not. There are "social Christian" who go to church on Sunday just to make sure other folks see them there. "Mustn't let folks think we are not good Christians!" But, their relationship with God ends as soon as they walk out of church Sunday morning. But, not to worry, they will pick up their Christian hat and be on time next Sunday. And, this is not only the laymen; you will also find pastors, elders, and other church leaders in that group.

Bill, Bill, Bill*, What a crock! (*You remind me of Mr. Bill on SNL) How in heck do you know this? Here again you are making a judgment call, assuming a adjudication that is clearly above your mental and/or spiritual capabilities. Come on down here with the rest of us, and just be happy they are in church, regardless of their intent.

Hi Barbara,

Yes, I can speak first hand of folks who will attend church and not truly be believing Christians. I did this for fifty years. During those years, if anyone asked if I were a Christian, my answer was a very quick, "Yes, absolutely. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I have attended many churches -- starting with the Baptist and Methodist churches while a teenager in Sheffield. Alabama is the heart of the Bible Belt. Of course, I am a Christian!"

But, to be honest with you, I had no idea what a Christian was nor what made a person a Christian. Attending church does not make one a Christian. Intellectually believing in God and Jesus does not make one a Christian. Being born and raised in the Bible Belt South does not make one a Christian. Reading the Bible intellectually does not make one a Christian.

So, what does make one a Christian? Glad you asked. A person becomes a Christian believer when, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- a person sincerely invites, asks, Jesus Christ to come into his/her life and become his/her personal Lord, Savior, and Master (Revelation 3:20). That is the beginning. At that point a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is a believer; albeit, an infant believer. We call such a person a "babe in Christ." Then, over the years, as that person become involved in a local fellowship, gets involved in corporate Bible study and other study groups such as Sunday School -- the person begins to mature into a solid Christian believer, a Christ Follower.

Billy Graham in his Crusades and now Greg Laurie in his Harvest Crusades does not call a person who comes forward at one of the events a convert, i.e., a believer. These people are called "inquirers." These "inquirers" are guided toward a local church fellowship and encouraged to get involved. Then, as Billy Graham tells us, after several years of consistent involvement in a local church fellowship -- then, that person can be called a convert, a true believer. Why do Billy Graham and Greg Laurie say this? Because they know that many people get caught up in the emotion of the moment and come forward at a Crusade; or they follow a friend and come forward -- and the next day, after the emotion has cooled -- they go back to their worldly lifestyle and forget all about what they did. Then, maybe next year, at the next Crusade, they will do the same thing all over again. These are not Christian believers; but, instead are people who are riding an emotional roller coaster.

Yes, for fifty years I was Bill "sure I am a Christian" Gray -- as I hit the night clubs in search of good scotch and wild women.

Then, praise God, I met a Godly man, a pastor, who showed the real way to become a Christian believer. That happened in 1987 -- and since then, I can truly say, "Yes, I am a Christian believer. I am a Christ Follower."

Have I known some of these "social Christians" and "networking Christians"? You bet I have. I have known people who would tell you, "I was saved when I was twelve years old." And, follow that with an invitation to go bar hopping and chasing women.

I have known people who would "farm a church." What do I mean by this? These are people who will come into a church and immediately, instead of sharing God and salvation -- would start the hard sell for their insurance, real estate, or whatever other products they had to sell. At one church where I was a leader, the finance officer called a meeting of our church leaders and had her friend come in to give a pitch about how much money we could make for the church if we would push all our members to use his telephone/communication service. His company would give a certain percentage back to the church.

After his pitch, I spoke up and told him that when people come to our church they are coming to hear the Gospel, not to be sold telephone/communication services. Thanks, but, no thanks. And the pastor and others went along with me.

I can still see two particular couples who came to our church a few years ago, to farm it for their insurance business. The pastor put a stop to it -- and they moved on to a larger church with more farming potential. No way they would stay at our church if they could not farm it for their business. Now, what would you call these folks?

Yes, Barbara, I have seen a lot of "social and networking" Christians (?) -- but, praise God, I have seen a lot more of the real thing. And, it is with those people that we grow in our walk with the Lord.

Am I saying that I do not want non-believers and the "Social" Christians in our church? Absolutely not. A church which consistently has only believers in our services -- is "preaching to the choir." The main purpose of the church should be, and must be, to reach the non-believers, the unchurched -- and tell them about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The unbeliever should be the main thrust of all Christian churches. Otherwise, we are not doing what Jesus instructed us: "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them" (Matthew 28:19-20) and "Be My witness to all the world" (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).

No, Barbara, I am not trying to judge anyone, nor am I trying to act holier than others. I am merely stating a fact that I know to be true -- that not all who sit in the pews, or stand in the pulpits, wearing their Christian hats -- are Christian. Should we be trying to reach these folks? Absolutely! That should be our main goal -- to reach them and other non-believers. However, if their actions tend to disrupt the church -- such as the "networkers" and "farmers" -- we have to step in and put a stop to that activity.

My wife has been a real estate broker for over thirty years. Yet, I would get very upset with her if she were to start trying to farm our church. If a person comes up and asks her a real estate question, she should give an answer. If there is serious business to discuss; schedule a time outside our church time for this. Church is for worshiping God, enjoying fellowship with other believers, and doing what we can to reach the non-believer -- not for selling products.

I pray that you have a better understanding of how I feel and my understanding of our Christian faith.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by barbaros45:
...if you believe there is great evil in this world, then you have to believe there is great good. The great evil manifests itself in daily newspaper and TV depictions, the great good is quieter, working inside the hearts and minds of peoples all over this great world. You have seen goodness work, it just doesn't make all the noise that evil does. God will not be put to a test, to see if he is there. But you feel his presence every time you do a good deed. That "feeling" you have comes from your heavenly Father.

Hi Barbara,

Doing good deeds is a wonderful thing -- and I wish more people did it. However, doing good deeds does not make one a Christian nor is one saved by doing good deeds. If that were the case, many of our atheist Friends would beat us to heaven. Many atheist, secularist, and other non-believers do many good deeds. But, they are not Christian believers -- and they do not have eternal salvation. As a matter of fact, all they have, as atheists, secularist, and non-believers, is the assurance that they have chosen the wrong path and it will lead them to an eternity of misery. They will not, unless they change their lifestyle and begin to follow Jesus, spend eternity in the presence of God. And, if one is not eternally in the presence of God -- the only other alternative is to be eternally in the presence of Satan. Not much to dream about.

Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." In other words, salvation is by grace through faith -- plus NOTHING ELSE.

If your salvation were dependent upon good works -- how many good works do you have to do to earn the right to enter heaven? How will you know when you have worked enough to warrant entry into heaven?

That is one problem with works oriented churches, such as the Roman Catholic church -- no one, not even the pope, knows if they have earned heaven or not. In other word, even the leaders, even the supreme leader of that church -- does not know if he is saved. If that is the case, how is the common, man on the street, Roman Catholic to have any assurance of his/her salvation? And, if one does not know if they have salvation -- why do they worship?

No, Barbara, a person, a Christian believer, can know FOR SURE, with no doubts -- that he/she has salvation. That is eternal security. And, we have this directly from Jesus Christ Himself: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47).

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (you, me, everyone), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Barbara, there are many more promises of eternal security in Jesus Christ. So, there is no reason that anyone who, by the grace of God, though faith in Jesus Christ -- believes and receives (John 1:12) His "paid in full" free gift of salvation -- should not KNOW beyond all doubt that he/she is saved and will spend eternity with God. I pray that you have this eternal security and know exactly where you will spend eternity.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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My grandmother, who is no longer living, used to tell a story about a divine intervention that happened when my dad was an infant. My father had come down with a sudden fever and was near the point of death. This was in the early 1920's and no doctor was available. She sat up with him late that night hoping and praying for a miracle. Suddenly a
person appeared in the room with her and the baby. She said "who are you and why are you here?" The person only answered "I've come for the baby." She felt suddenly that this person was of an angelic presence and feared that he meant he had come to "take the baby". She fell to her knees and begged the angel not to take her youngest child. When she looked up, the person was gone and the baby was still alive. Through that night and the following day, the infant made a miraculous recovery. It was only later that my grandmother realized that when the angel said "I've come for the baby", that he literally meant that he had come to help the baby and save him from imminent death.

I heard that story many times from my grandmother when I was a child, and she never wavered from her belief that God had sent an angel to save my father that night. This February, my dad celebrated his 88th birthday.
quote:
Originally posted by barbaros45:
Bill, it is not "Barbara", it is "Barbaro"...the only professional athlete worth his salt...so to speak....and my favorite professional athlete...and you didnt read my post past the first two lines...

Hi BarbarO,

Sorry, I did not intend to mess up your name. I am familiar with the name "Barbara" -- but, have to confess that I have never heard of your "BarbarO." I have always been pretty much into sports -- but, must confess -- I have never heard of your Barbaro. What sport does he/she play? Now, if you had called yourself "Kobe" or "Brett" or even "Joe Namath" -- I would have recognized you. But, sorry -- no BarbarO in my memory banks.

To you other point, I did read your post and what I read led me to understand that you believe one is saved by "good feelings" or "good works." And, neither is true. If I misread your post; please tell me the point you had intended -- and we can discuss it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by barbaros45:
...if you believe there is great evil in this world, then you have to believe there is great good. The great evil manifests itself in daily newspaper and TV depictions, the great good is quieter, working inside the hearts and minds of peoples all over this great world. You have seen goodness work, it just doesn't make all the noise that evil does. God will not be put to a test, to see if he is there. But you feel his presence everytime you do a good deed. That "feeling" you have comes from your heavenly father.


I think I understand what you mean about the good deed part. I feel his presence all the time. It is not because I am better than anyone else, or so holy or without sin. I AM NOT. I am flawed human being. I feel his presence because I know he has changed me, and that change has given me a joy that I can't really explain in words. I wish I could explain how I know God is real. I just KNOW.
Canade, ..... God's Holy Spirit is a miraculous and wonderful aspect of God isn't it? Most have a hard and difficult time understanding how God's Holy Spirit can actually dwell within mortal man/woman and change them ... that is until it happens to them then no explanation is necessary. Thank's for your post.

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