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One of the biggest examples of eisegesis that I see in these forums has to do with the false concept of once saved, always saved.  Scripture clearly indicates that this is not true, beginning early in the Old Testament.  In Exodus, we see the Israelites saved by Moses (a prefiguring/type of Christ), led out of Egypt (representing earth and a sinful life) and led into the desert and towards the Promised Land (a type of heaven).  However, the Israelites, though saved, must still complete the journey to the Promised Land, and as the Old Testament shows, many Israelites sinned in the desert and lost their salvation.  Moses himself did not get to enter the Promised Land.  Though the Israelites had been saved, it was not a one- time process.  They had to remain faithful throughout their journey through the desert until they reached the Promised Land.  Only when they actually entered the Promised Land was their salvation assured.  There was no guarantee that all those saved would enter into the Promised Land.

Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 9:14 when he says that we have to run the race (lead our lives) so as to obtain the prize.  We have to finish the race to obtain the prize.  You don’t win the prize if you start the race (are saved) but fail to finish the race.  You must finish the race (live your live to the end) to win the prize. 

Paul re-confirms this in 2 Timothy 4:7.  Here Paul is near death, and he says that he has run the good race, he has kept the faith.  He knew that he had to keep the faith all the way to the end of his life.  His salvation depended on that, because he knew that salvation can be lost.

Throughout the New Testament, there are many verses that confirm the fact that salvation can be lost.  Acts 20:24:  However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me--the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. 

Galatians 2:2:  I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.

Phillippians 1:30:  since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

1 Tim 1:18:  Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight.

1 Tim 6:12: Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

2 Tim 3:10:  You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance.

Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Phillippians 2:15:  Work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Hebrews 12:1:  Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Matt 7:7:  Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, will be saved.

 

Once saved, not always saved.  We must persevere to the end!  Run the race!  Finish the race!  Fight the good fight!!  Don’t quit!! 

Praised be Jesus forever!!

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Hi Nathan,

 

You tell us, "One of the biggest examples of eisegesis that I see in these forums has to do with the false concept of once saved, always saved. . . . Paul re-confirms this in 2 Timothy 4:7.  Here Paul is near death, and he says that he has run the good race, he has kept the faith.  He knew that he had to keep the faith all the way to the end of his life.  His salvation depended on that, because he knew that salvation can be lost."

 

Let's examine that Scripture passage:

 

2 Timothy 4:6-8, "For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.  (7) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; (8) in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing."

 

Where in this Scripture passage do you see ANY indication that Paul feels he has, or might, lose his salvation.  In this passage, I see that Paul is absolutely certain that he HAS eternal life in Christ.  He tells us, "in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness."   That sure doesn't sound as though Paul believes he has lost, or even slightly forfeited, his eternal life.

 

In that passage you have most definitely tried to push your Vatican installed preconceived ideas -- where they do not fit.

 

You might want to take a serious look at the passage which is just before that one:

 

2 Timothy 4:1-5, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:  (2) preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.  (3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, (4) and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.  (5) But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."

 

My Friend, it really seems to me that you have been having your ears tickled by the Vatican for way too long.   For you most certainly seem to be following their myths. 

 

I suggest what you need is a good Christ-centered, Bible-teaching Bible study -- where you can learn to read and understand the Bible yourself.  And, stop allowing the Vatican to TELL YOU what the Bible means.   You need to dig into your own Bible study -- and stop allowing the priest to dig your wells for you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

2 Timothy 2-15

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  • 2 Timothy 2-15

Hi Gingee,

 

You and I know that, by the grace of God, we are saved through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.  This is verified in Ephesians 2:8-9.    It is often explained:  Grace is God giving us what we do not deserveMercy is God, through His Grace, not giving us what we do deserve, death as a penalty for our sin nature.

 

God, because He loves us so much (John 3:16) and wishes all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9) gives Grace to all mankind; but, if we do not accept it by placing our faith in Jesus Christ -- we have wasted His Grace.

 

Justification is when, by faith, we receive Christ as Lord and Savior, are forgiven of all sins, and covered by the righteousness of Christ.  Sanctification means that, after being justified by God, we are set apart, made holy in His eyes.  We are members of His family.    And Glorification will happen when we are Raptured.  In this mortal body we will always have a sin nature -- and we can never enter the kingdom of God in that state.  At the Rapture, we will receive our glorified, immortal bodies, i.e., Glorification, and be accepted into the presence of God.

 

Now, the difference between Biblical thinking and Roman Catholic thinking about Grace, is that we know that God has made His Grace available to all people -- that we might choose, through "free will" to receive Christ as Lord and Savior through His finished work.

 

In the Roman Catholic church, one has to keep earning Grace -- much as one must keep working for their salvation.  Of course, the logical question has to be:  When will one KNOW that he/she has enough Grace or has worked enough to earn entry into heaven?  

 

And, of course, in a works related salvation theology -- no one can ever know.  Thus, our Roman Catholic Friends, and their Pope, cannot know until they die -- if they will go to heaven. 

 

In other words, when you and I die -- we KNOW that we will just walk through door marked Heaven.   Our Roman Catholic Friends, when they die -- still are looking at two doors, Heaven and Hell, wondering which will open to admit them.

 

In other words, you and I have "eternal security" in Christ.  Our Friends must keep looking at their tally sheet of works, wondering.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Gingee, the "good race" means to CONTINUE to strive to do God's will. That means to give your life to Him once again every day. To wake up with the first thought in your mind that you want to do His will on this day, not your own. It means being willing to go where you'd rather not go and do what you'd rather not do, if it should be that the Holy Spirit let's you know that that is God's will.

 

Too many "Christians" believe in Him without really giving over their lives and their wills to Him. Many start out that way, but over time the cares and temptations of the world come to the forefront of their lives and kind of push God into the background. Sure, they still believe He is real, but they don't make Him the focal point of everything they do. And if they feel guilt over something they have done, or more likely HAVEN'T done, even thogh it is something they know they SHOULD, that means they are doing their OWN will rather than God's.

 

OSAS makes it too easy to just shrug off our obligations to Him. He MADE us! He SUFFERED for us! He DIED for us! We owe it to Him to put HIM first in all things. If we approach our faith as if "running the good race" meant the difference between being saved or not, even if we are wrong and OSAS IS true, we will be better Christians and better people. We will be MUCH more likely to lose that complaisancy that leads to doing our own will. We will make HIM happy, and we will make ourselves happy.

 

Christians often tell atheists that they have nothing to lose by believing, but the atheists have a lot to lose. If Christians are wrong, they haven't lost a thing, but if atheists are wrong they have lost Heaven.

 

Well, I believe that refusing to go for OSAS is about the same. If I am wrong I have lost nothing, but if OSAS believers are wrong, they have lost everything.

Hi O No,

 

You tell Gingee, "OSAS makes it too easy to just shrug off our obligations to Him."

 

While I realize that neither you nor I can say if a person is saved or not.   However, if a person can just "shrug off" Jesus Christ -- I do have to wonder if that person ever really knew Jesus Christ.  As James wrote, and I paraphrase, "Works will not save you; but, if your salvation does not produce works, it is dead." 

 

And, if a professed faith in Christ allows a person to "shrug off" Jesus Christ -- that leaves a really big question mark in my mind.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by O No!:

Gingee, the "good race" means to CONTINUE to strive to do God's will. That means to give your life to Him once again every day. To wake up with the first thought in your mind that you want to do His will on this day, not your own. It means being willing to go where you'd rather not go and do what you'd rather not do, if it should be that the Holy Spirit let's you know that that is God's will.

 

Too many "Christians" believe in Him without really giving over their lives and their wills to Him. Many start out that way, but over time the cares and temptations of the world come to the forefront of their lives and kind of push God into the background. Sure, they still believe He is real, but they don't make Him the focal point of everything they do. And if they feel guilt over something they have done, or more likely HAVEN'T done, even thogh it is something they know they SHOULD, that means they are doing their OWN will rather than God's.

 

OSAS makes it too easy to just shrug off our obligations to Him. He MADE us! He SUFFERED for us! He DIED for us! We owe it to Him to put HIM first in all things. If we approach our faith as if "running the good race" meant the difference between being saved or not, even if we are wrong and OSAS IS true, we will be better Christians and better people. We will be MUCH more likely to lose that complaisancy that leads to doing our own will. We will make HIM happy, and we will make ourselves happy.

 

Christians often tell atheists that they have nothing to lose by believing, but the atheists have a lot to lose. If Christians are wrong, they haven't lost a thing, but if atheists are wrong they have lost Heaven.

 

Well, I believe that refusing to go for OSAS is about the same. If I am wrong I have lost nothing, but if OSAS believers are wrong, they have lost everything.

I am not saying that I believe in once saved always saved, i do believe we are saved by Grace and not by works. Before God sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins people were saved by works. After Jesus died for us we are saved by Grace. Not all persons will accept His Grace. There may be some who accept His Grace and then later turn away from Christ. I am not sure about this since I have a very difficult time believing that someone who has a relationship with the Holy Spirit could ever totally turn away from God. We all have our faults and we always will as long as we are in this world and as long as satan rules this world. Yet we have the Holy Spirit and we should never quit seeking His guidance in even the smallest of things and we should constantly thank and Praise Him for His many blessings.

I think the prodigal son is an example of those who turn away from Him. God wanted us to know that no matter how far we stray, if we come back to Him, He will accept us with open arms. But if that prodigal son had NOT come back, how could his father have taken him back into his arms? It is up to each of us to, IF we stray, come back to Him. If we stray and DON'T come back, I believe we will STAY outside of His arms.

 

I have known too many people in this life who HAVE strayed and some came back while others didn't. I did it myself. I was an atheist for several years, but I came back. If I had died while I was "away", I believe I would have gone to Hell. I just thank Him that He let me live long enough to come back.

quote:   Originally Posted by O No!:

I think the prodigal son is an example of those who turn away from Him.  God wanted us to know that no matter how far we stray, if we come back to Him, He will accept us with open arms.  But if that prodigal son had NOT come back, how could his father have taken him back into his arms? It is up to each of us to, IF we stray, come back to Him.  If we stray and DON'T come back, I believe we will STAY outside of His arms.

 

I have known too many people in this life who HAVE strayed and some came back while others didn't.  I did it myself.  I was an atheist for several years, but I came back.  If I had died while I was "away", I believe I would have gone to Hell.  I just thank Him that He let me live long enough to come back.

Hi O No,

 

Yes, the parable of the Prodigal Son is a perfect example of God's forgiveness and of what we are taught in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

 

But, the Prodigal Son represents one who is saved, i.e., a member of the family -- while 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking of all people.  And, you are right that, as the Prodigal Son parable teaches, when one is adopted into the family of God, no matter how far we might stray -- He is always ready and eager to welcome us back.

 

And, just like a child who is adopted into a family -- no matter how mad or upset the child gets with that family -- he/she is still a member of that family.  That adoption is like the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit -- once done, it cannot be reversed -- for no one can evict the Holy Spirit.  And, no one can snatch us from the hands of God (John 10:28-29).   Thus, once indwelled and sealed, we have "eternal security" in Christ.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

One who claims to know that they are guaranteed a spot in heaven when they die is guilt of the sin of presumption.  One does not know.  If one says that they know that they will be in heaven, then that person is claiming to be equal to God in knowledge.  Only God knows what our eternal fate will be.  No one, not even Bill Gray, knows what his eternal fate will be.  God knows, we don't!!

 

And while no one can snatch us from the hands of God, we can choose to turn away from Him.  until we die and are safely in heaven, that remains a possibility. 

Once saved, not always saved.

 

Praised be Jesus forever!!

 

Hi Nathan,

 

When we read the promises of God in the Bible -- believing those promises is not presuming anything EXCEPT that when God promises, He will keep that promise.

 

My Friend, the difference between you and me is that YOU are relying on the promises of the Pope, who does not even know if he is saved.

 

And, I am relying on the promises of God -- who does the saving. 

 

You keep your Pope -- and I will keep my God.  But, depending upon the Pope to get you into heaven -- is truly the "blind leading the blind."

 

"He that believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE."  (John 6:47) -- spoken by Jesus Christ Himself.   Do you believe Him or not?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Good grief, how many times do you have to be shown WHY OSAS is not biblical? Do we believe Jesus? Absolutely. Unlike you, we believe everything He said. Especially the height of Christian remembrance and celebration in the Eucharist. Bill, you are the one who does not believe what Jesus says.

Hi VP,

 

And, once again, I must say to you and Nathan -- that as long as you keep your eyes tightly closed and keep yelling, "I don't see it!  I don't see it!" -- you will always be like our atheist Friends who keep denying God -- because they refuse to look up. 

 

I have compared our atheist Friends with the man standing in the middle of the interstate, asking, "What truck?" -- as the 18-wheeler roars toward him/her.   And, my Religion Forum Roman Catholic Friends are doing the same with your closed eyed, "I don't see it!  I don't see it!"

 

You keep bringing up the Eucharist or Lord's Supper.  We read about the Lord's Supper in Matthew 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:14-20, and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29.   And, in both Luke 22:19 and in 1 Corinthians 11:25 -- He tells us to do this in remembrance of Him -- until He comes again (verse 26).  Nothing about the Eucharist, where the elements become the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, in any of these.

 

In John 6 He is totally on a different subject.  What do we find in John 6?  In verses 1 and 2, His disciples return and He heals the multitude.  In verses 3-14, He feeds the 5000 and in verse 15 He goes out to pray alone.  Verses 16-21 tells of the boat ride back to Capernaum where Jesus walks on water and Peter tries and sinks. 

 

Then, in John 6:22 to 7:1, He uses this recent feeding of the 5000 miracle which is still fresh in their minds, having happened only a day ago -- to teach about the miracle of spiritual food sent from God, Him.  He compares the miracle from God of physical food for the 5000 and manna for the Israelites -- to the spiritual food from God, Him -- for all who will believe.

 

We read His discourse on the Bread of Life -- where He tells of the manna, the physical food God sent from heaven to feed the Israelites in the desert during their 40 year wandering.  Then, He tells them how He is the spiritual food, the Bread of Life, God sent from heaven to offer spiritual life, eternal life, to all who will believe.  No Eucharist found in John 6.

 

VP, when Jesus said, in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life" -- what did He mean?

 

I read that to mean that everyone who, by the grace of God, through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- BELIEVES and receives Him as Lord and Savior (John 1:12) -- HAS ETERNAL LIFE.   How do YOU read it?

 

And, if you will read the Bible with an open mind and heart -- you will also find "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved" clearly defined and declared there also.  Jesus Christ wants to save all who will be saved -- and will not allow you to walk off a spiritual cliff once you have become adopted into His family.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Another problem with the lie of once saved, always saved, is that it denies the continued exercise of our free will.  If I say the magic words and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then I am always saved, according to this lie.  That means that there is no chance that I could ever change my mind.  but life in Christ is not like that.  It is a continual relationship, that must be nurtured, and relationships can be ended. In this case, we have the guarantee that Jesus will not end it on His part, but what about us?  Whave free will, given to us by God, who created us in His image and likeness.  We can choose to end  our relationship with God if we so choose.  He allows us to do so by having given us free will.  So we cannot just utter s those magic words once, and assume that we have done all we need to do and are saved.  We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul says.  we must run the good race, we must finish the race, we must choose Jesus every day.  We cannot be like the Israelites in the desert, who were saved once, but fell on the journey in the desert, and thus were not always saved.  We must persevere to the end, as Scripture tells us.

Once saved, not always saved!!

Praised be Jesus forever!!!

Nathan

If we cannot know that we have eternal life why did John write in 1 John 5:13 that he wrote these things that "ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"? 

 

OSAS or eternal security is not a license to sin. Look a little further in 1 John 5:16 and John talks about a sin unto death. He's talking about saved people because he talks about a "brother" fellow believer being overtaken in sin unto death and sin not unto death. Believers who live outside God's will place themselves in danger even the danger of an early physical death. However, it is God's power that keeps not our own. 

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Nathan

If we cannot know that we have eternal life why did John write in 1 John 5:13 that he wrote these things that "ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"? 

OSAS or eternal security is not a license to sin.

____

If a person knows in their heart that they have been saved, but then, for whatever reason, they walk away, turning their back on God, do you really believe they still have eternal security? 

 OSAS believers will say that person was never saved in the first place, but that's a cop out. An answer to a question they can't sincerely answer.

 

Some people that's new in Christ or doesn't really understand what the Bible is saying could be easily swayed by the words that Bill Gray & his kind preach. They come to believe that since they have eternal security they have a license to do whatever they want.

He says we have eternal life. Yes, Bill, we see it. We have it because He makes that promise to us. But there are a lot of "IF's" attached. It is not reasonable to hang your entire salvation and belief system on a one verse. So that YOU MAY HAVE eternal life. If you follow Him If you profess Him If you repent If you keep His commandments If you confess your sins. What's the point of this life if we already know we are all set for the next one? We work out our salvation in fear and trembling. I don't mean works as in "good deeds"- but in filling up that "if" list- every day.
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Nathan

If we cannot know that we have eternal life why did John write in 1 John 5:13 that he wrote these things that "ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"? 

OSAS or eternal security is not a license to sin.

____

If a person knows in their heart that they have been saved, but then, for whatever reason, they walk away, turning their back on God, do you really believe they still have eternal security? 

 OSAS believers will say that person was never saved in the first place, but that's a cop out. An answer to a question they can't sincerely answer.

 

Some people that's new in Christ or doesn't really understand what the Bible is saying could be easily swayed by the words that Bill Gray & his kind preach. They come to believe that since they have eternal security they have a license to do whatever they want.

What is the definition of being saved? Does it not mean that we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Does it not mean that we know without a doubt that God exists? Does it not mean that the Holy Spirit lives within us and guides us? Does it not mean that we have a personal realationship with God? If you accept the fact that the sun is in the sky, will it simply cease to exist if you hide from it the rest of your life? How could someone not believe something exists when they know for certain that it does?

.

Billie said;

Hi VP,

And, once again, I must say to you and Nathan -- that as long as you keep your eyes tightly closed and keep yelling, "I don't see it! I don't see it!" -- you will always be like our atheist Friends who keep denying God -- because they refuse to look up.

 

Not true billie, you're the very one that can't see. You never did see and you

never will. You are calvinist and that is, plain to see. You have invented your

own kind of salvation which isn't Biblical. You won't follow the teachings of

Christ so you can't call yourself a true Christian.

 

You don't believe in Baptism which is Biblical and an example of a sacrament

Jesus made for us that you refuse to reconize as anything important.

 

The chapter 6 of John is a preparatory for the coming sacrament of the Holy

Eucharist gifted to us. Which was of great expense to Jesus in the loss of

many disciples who knew he wasn't talking about OSAS. They knew he was

referring to his body and blood, they just didn't understand how that could

be possible. The same way many people consider it today. If you don't

believe what Jesus was saying why don't you walk away? Oh I forgot,

you take five or six words out of seventy two verses of that chapter and

invent yourself a new religion and deceptively call it Christian. That is yet another

slap of refusal in the Face of Christ.





Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
~~~~~~~~~~

VP, when Jesus said, in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life" -- what did He mean?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

~~~~~~~~~~

Hi, I am curious as to what book your verse is referenced?   In the New American Bible (a Catholic Bible) the verse is as you present but in all other references that I have: KJV, NKJV, and The Interlinear Bible (Hebrew-Greek-English) the verse emphasizes...he that believeth in Me...

 

With great interest I read Scriptural verses that are presented in discussion so that I may learn.  I am not Catholic and from what I've gleaned from reading these posts you are not Catholic either...I believe more along the Calvinistic line of thought.  If I am wrong, I mean no disrespect and please accept me apologies.  But, it does help me to know for what source you are referencing the verses from...Catholic bible, KJV, NKJV, or The MacArthur which is a Calvinist bible...etc.  For me, it does make a difference and would help me tremendously in understanding the train of thoughts in what's being posted.  Thank you~

Hi Tamela,

You ask me, "Hi, I am curious as to what book your verse is referenced?   In the New American Bible (a Catholic Bible) the verse is as you present but in all other references that I have: KJV, NKJV, and The Interlinear Bible (Hebrew-Greek-English) the verse emphasizes...he that believeth in Me..."

Normally, I always use and quote the NASB (New American Standard Bible) and try to be consistent to include a translation reference when I do use another translation.

John 6:47 (nasb), "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:47 (nkjv), "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me* has everlasting life.

John 6:47 (kjv), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life."

Actually, the KJV and the NKJV read more powerfully, for they include the reference reminding us that we are believing in or on Jesus Christ.  Our whole faith is truly built up our believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross -- for that is why He came to earth in the frail body of man.

I use the NASB because, back in 1987 when I first began attending Bible studies, all I had was a King James Bible given to my wife by Mormons -- and when I became interested and wanted to read the Bible on my own; I ran into a brick wall at Romans.  At Bible study that week, I mentioned this to our pastor.  When he saw the Bible I was using he gave both my wife and me a new Bible.  It was an NASB Harper Study Bible -- and I have used it ever since.  The more mature and knowledgeable I grow in His Word, the more I like that translation.

However, often when writing and I want to explain a particular point -- I will find that another translation makes that particular point more clearly.  Then, I will use that translation, that time.  But, I try to be consistent in also including a reference showing the translation used in that instance.

Then, you say, "With great interest I read Scriptural verses that are presented in discussion so that I may learn.  I am not Catholic and from what I've gleaned from reading these posts you are not Catholic either...I believe more along the Calvinistic line of thought.  If I am wrong, I mean no disrespect and please accept me apologies.  But, it does help me to know for what source you are referencing the verses from...Catholic bible, KJV, NKJV, or The MacArthur which is a Calvinist bible...etc.  For me, it does make a difference and would help me tremendously in understanding the train of thoughts in what's being posted.  Thank you~"

It is true that I am not a member of the Roman Catholic church.  I did actively attend that church for about 20 years, before I was a Christian believer.  I became a believer in a Baptist church (Baptist General Conference [BGC]) in 1987 and, since then, I have worked diligently to grow more mature in my knowledge of God's Word and in my Christian faith.

But, to answer your main question here, let me share what I wrote last night when RobC wrote that I am a Calvinist because I believe in "once saved, always saved":


Actually, belief in "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved" is not just a Calvinist doctrine.  I firmly believe in "eternal security" in Christ -- but, I am not a Calvinist.

I cannot accept their doctrine of Predestination.  And, like you, I cannot accept their doctrine of "Irresistable Grace" -- the teaching that the elect, those who Calvinists believe have been unconditionally elected to eternal life, cannot resist the grace of God and heaven's determination to save them.  That would mean that Hitler and others of his ilk might be saved -- and Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, etc., lost.

For one thing, Calvinist Predestination teaches that before the Creation God arbitrarily chose who will be saved and go to heaven, the Elect -- and will be lost and go to hell, the Reprobate.  And, they teach that we do not have "free will" to choose Christ or to deny Him -- and that, because of that, there is absolutely nothing a person can do to be saved.  Either God has already saved you -- or God has already condemned you to hell.  Nothing else.

The question I have always asked Calvinist -- and no one yet, not even pastors, has been able to answer is:  "If Predestination is true -- how do YOU know that God chose you to be among the Elect before the Creation?"    If they say because I love Him.  No, that is something you are doing and that will not work in your Calvinist theology.   If they say, "I just know, I feel it."  Nope, that is still something you are doing.

In other words, if Calvinist Predestination were true -- there is NO WAY anyone could know he/she is saved or not -- unless God gave that person a special revelation.  And, so far, no one has ever told me that God gave him/her a special revelation.

What does happen is that the person will just ignore my question -- or will get mad at me for asking.

But, no, my Friend -- Calvinism and "once saved, always saved" are not tied together.  We both believe in "eternal security" -- but, that is the end of our relationship.  I once had a Calvinist pastor ask me to join their church.  I liked the guy very much; but, told him that if I were in their Bible studies -- we would have great disagreements.

 

Tamela, thank you for raising these questions.  It is always good to make sure we have a level playing field when discussing our Lord and the eternal life He purchased for all who will, by the grace of God, through faith in Him and His finished work -- believe and receive Him as our personal Lord and Savior.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Nathan

If we cannot know that we have eternal life why did John write in 1 John 5:13 that he wrote these things that "ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"? 

OSAS or eternal security is not a license to sin.

____

If a person knows in their heart that they have been saved, but then, for whatever reason, they walk away, turning their back on God, do you really believe they still have eternal security? 

 OSAS believers will say that person was never saved in the first place, but that's a cop out. An answer to a question they can't sincerely answer.

 

Some people that's new in Christ or doesn't really understand what the Bible is saying could be easily swayed by the words that Bill Gray & his kind preach. They come to believe that since they have eternal security they have a license to do whatever they want.

 

 

Semi

Anyone who believes they have a license to do as they want doesn't really sound like a "new creature in Christ Jesus" do they? A person is saved unto good works. We work because we love Jesus and we love others. I'm not doing what I'm doing to go to heaven. Jesus settled that on the cross 2000 years ago. If its truly up to me to live up to some standard or be lost forever I'm a goner. I know that in me dwells no good thing but praise the Lord his righteousness is imputed to me when I repent and place my faith and trust in him and the finished work of Calvary.

.

Red...

In my way of thinking of osas is another way to say, if you are without the

sin of death, an unforgivable sin, and you comply with the doctrine Jesus

Christ set before us you should go to Heaven. That's the reason I know I'm

going to heaven without a osas label on it.

With a free will I also know I can lose my salvation no matter how I might

twist the scripture.

But for me to get in your face every chance I find and tell you what a fool

you are if you don't know without a doubt if you don't know if you are saved

or not isn't what God expects from us.

And again, eternal life is obtained and promised to all that comply with

his doctrine. 

 

Thank you Bill for answering my question.  It is true that once God holds you in His grace, no one can pull you from it...you however can choose to leave His grace.  I do not hold to the belief that 'once saved, always saved'; I do believe we can fall from grace.  I do not believe that it is only by professing a faith in God that stands as "our gift to God" for "our part" in salvation.  I do believe that faith without works is dead faith.  For me, this is clearing see in EVERY aspect of life...anything without effort is nothing.  For example:  I can say I am alive for the simply fact that my heart beats but if I do not truly "live" my life, am I truly alive?  These are MY beliefs and MY beliefs do not make others' beliefs wrong...they are simply MY beliefs.  Again, thank you for your response.

Originally Posted by Tamela:

Thank you Bill for answering my question.  It is true that once God holds you in His grace, no one can pull you from it...you however can choose to leave His grace.  I do not hold to the belief that 'once saved, always saved'; I do believe we can fall from grace.  I do not believe that it is only by professing a faith in God that stands as "our gift to God" for "our part" in salvation.  I do believe that faith without works is dead faith.  For me, this is clearing see in EVERY aspect of life...anything without effort is nothing.  For example:  I can say I am alive for the simply fact that my heart beats but if I do not truly "live" my life, am I truly alive?  These are MY beliefs and MY beliefs do not make others' beliefs wrong...they are simply MY beliefs.  Again, thank you for your response.

***********

I agree with everything you said, you must be very smart.


 

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Anyone who believes they have a license to do as they want doesn't really sound like a "new creature in Christ Jesus" do they? A person is saved unto good works. We work because we love Jesus and we love others. I'm not doing what I'm doing to go to heaven. Jesus settled that on the cross 2000 years ago. If its truly up to me to live up to some standard or be lost forever I'm a goner. I know that in me dwells no good thing but praise the Lord his righteousness is imputed to me when I repent and place my faith and trust in him and the finished work of Calvary.

_______

Red, anything I ever say to you is never meant to come across sounding like an argumentative tone. I am true in any questions I may ask, so please, never take it that I’m arguing, but only in a sincere discussion.

 

If all a "new creature in Christ Jesus" ever heard was OSAS & put in a way that he/she will always have eternal security, then yes, they could really believe they could do what they want. I have a family member that will tell you he is saved, & no matter what he does, he cannot become unsaved.

 

You’re not doing what you’re doing to get to heaven? Then why are you doing it? You’ll probably say you’re doing it because you love Jesus. But why do you love Jesus? You love Him because He died on the cross for your sins, AND, though you may not say it, He is your only way to Heaven.

 

Say both of us saw a homeless person on the street, cold & hungry. The one I see, I get him some food, get a thick winter coat so he can stay warm, shoes/socks for his cold feet, a blanket for him to sit on. Whatever I did for him it was because my heart hurt seeing him cold & hungry & I wanted to do something for him. I tell him goodbye & walk away.

 

The one you see, you do the same thing for that I did for the one I saw. The difference is you did it because you feel that Jesus would expect you to. You believe that Jesus wouldn’t want you to walk by w/o helping this person. You may feel compassion for this person but the main reason you did it is because you are a Christian, & that is what you should do. And you will probably ask if you can pray for him before you walk away.

 

You will go to Heaven because you did all those good things that Jesus expected of you. You worked for Him because He is Lord & Savior over your life.

I did it because I wanted to help & my heart hurt for that person. It wasn’t because someone expected it of me, not because I felt I had to, but because I wanted to from deep down in my heart. Only difference in you & I is that you go to Heaven for your good works, but I do not.

 

Several years ago, I was in the bad part of Florence. I had made a wrong turn & was trying to get back to the street I was supposed to be on. Standing at the edge of an alley way, was what I assumed to be a prostitute because of the way she was dressed & the way in which she was standing & watching traffic. She had no coat & it was probably 20 degrees outside. I went home, got a coat, stopped at a corner café, got a BLT, some hot  soup & a cup of coffee to go. I didn’t know if she would still be there because I had been gone, probably, an hour. There she was, standing at that same spot. I get out, hand her the coat, sit the food & coffee on the sidewalk next to her, & walk away. I said nothing & she said nothing.

I cried all the way to where I was going because my heart hurt for that woman. I didn’t do it because I felt I had to but because I wanted to. I can do as much good as a Christian does but because we do it for different reasons, I go to Hell.

 

I have no idea why I told that story, just felt a need to let you know that just because I’m not a Christian anymore, doesn’t mean I’m a bad person.
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
 I can do as much good as a Christian does but because we do it for different reasons, I go to Hell.

 

I have no idea why I told that story, just felt a need to let you know that just because I’m not a Christian anymore, doesn’t mean I’m a bad person.

 

Thank you for sharing your story.  I don't know the paths you've traveled in your life or the reasons to why you feel you're not a Christian but I do know that I read a lot of love in your actions.  "Good" can not come from evil nor can love come from an empty heart.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

If you accept the fact that the sun is in the sky, will it simply cease to exist if you hide from it the rest of your life? How could someone not believe something exists when they know for certain that it does?




So you've "seen" a god?

I "see" God in everything. I feel His spirit always with me and it is a wonderful feeling knowing that He is always with me. You shouldn't be so quick to judge something that you know nothing about. Has it ever dawned on you that someone that believes in God knows God? Just because you don't know God doesn't mean that He doesn't exist.

Semi, you profess belief in satan and in hell. I know that you **want to believe in God, but that events in your life have caused you to doubt Him. My dear friend, I encourage you to open your heart. We are all here for you and love you. You know, the evil cannot exist without the "good". Being disappointed in God is okay. We all have been at times. We all have questioned our faith. But it pains me when you say "you are going to hell"....please, don't **** your heart down to the possibilities...
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:.

Feeling sorry for yourself isn't the answer semi, the answer is to put on your big girl panties an act like you wish to gain Heaven for yourself. Your are the only one saying anything about hell, God isn't saying it. You don't need to claim you're a christian to go to Heaven. Just do it.

_______

Vic, I don't need or want you advising me in any aspect of religion. I didn't ask for it & don't want it.

Maybe you should get that beam out of your own eye before you start telling me what to do or how to do it!!

 

If it bothers you that I refuse to lie to myself, block me!

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Semi

You are obviously a compassionate person. I never meant to say that you must be a Christian to be kind or a good person. I just believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has the power to change lives. I know it has changed mine. God Bless.

_______

No more compassionate than you or anyone else. 

I never took it that you meant someone must be a Christian to be kind or a good person. Maybe I said it all wrong or got my words twisted. I just meant that we both could do the same good deeds & one (you) goes to heaven & the other (me) goes to Hell.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
 

Vic, I don't need or want you advising me in any aspect of religion. I didn't ask for it & don't want it.

Maybe you should get that beam out of your own eye before you start telling me what to do or how to do it!!

 

If it bothers you that I refuse to lie to myself, block me!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess I misread some of your posts semi, i've got a eye appointment

this morning.

Semi, I’m callin’ you out on that story. In short I think you made it up.

1. The “Corner café’ “sounds fishy I don’t know of one.

2. The soup?? I only know of one that sold soup and it was not in any “bad part of Florence”.

3, Standing out in 20 deg. Weather for an hour dressed like you and best in you avatars is not believable.

4. There are NO alleys as you describe in Florence.

5. “several years you would not have been allowed to be out in a car by yourself.

6. The only “traffic” to watch “several years ago” would have been non existent in a “bad part of Florence”.

7. The popo would have already shared donuts and coffee and a warm place to stay.

Semi I expect you to recant this wild story.

This is a common fantasy.

Semi I therefore accuse you of  “

sabotage[ing] the cure,[ being Christian] combining revenge against the therapist [God] with self-punishment.

Read more:
http://www.answers.com/topic/self-punishment-psychoanalysis#ixzz2LvSyFSUy

 

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