A deeply flawed analysis, especially in those places where it attempts to discredit God as not being "all powerful" because he chooses NOT to do certain things.  God is, in fac, all-powerful and He has the power to choose which of any potential number of courses of action to follow.  If he was powerless to make such coices, He would indeed not be all-powerful

 

You have things backward.

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Boy, you are really tip-toeing the circular logic boundary. Maybe this will push you over the line: How do you know that God is, in fact, all-powerful?

 

The Problem of Evil. By Peter Kreft

 

 

 

* I know it's along post.. But it's really interesting. 

 

The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world. It is also the one serious objection to the existence of God.

When Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote his great Summa Theologica, he could find only two objections to the existence of God, even though he tried to list at least three objections to every one of the thousands of theses he tried to prove in that great work. One of the two objections is the apparent ability of natural science to explain everything in our experience without God; and the other is the problem of evil.

More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of evil than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it's not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it. That's why the Book of Job is so arresting.

The problem can be stated very simply: If God is so good, why is his world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?

The unbeliever who asks that question is usually feeling resentment toward and rebellion against God, not just lacking evidence for his existence. C. S. Lewis recalls that as an atheist he "did not believe God existed. I was also very angry with him for not existing. I was also angry with him for having created the world."

When you talk to such a person, remember that it is more like talking to a divorcée than to a skeptical scientist. The reason for unbelief is an unfaithful lover, not an inadequate hypothesis. The unbeliever's problem is not just a soft head but a hard heart. And the good apologist knows how to let the heart lead the head as well as vice versa.

There are four parts to the solution to the problem of evil.

Evil is not a thing but a wrong choice.

First, evil is not a thing, an entity, a being. All beings are either the Creator or creatures created by the Creator. But every thing God created is good, according to Genesis. We naturally tend to picture evil as a thing—a black cloud, or a dangerous storm, or a grimacing face, or dirt. But these pictures mislead us. If God is the Creator of all things and evil is a thing, then God is the Creator of evil, and he is to blame for its existence. No, evil is not a thing but a wrong choice, or the damage done by a wrong choice. Evil is no more a positive thing than blindness is. But it is just as real. It is not a thing, but it is not an illusion.

The all-powerful God gave us a share in his power  to choose freely.

Second, the origin of evil is not the Creator but the creature's freely choosing sin and selfishness. Take away all sin and selfishness and you would have heaven on earth. Even the remaining physical evils would no longer rankle and embitter us. Saints endure and even embrace suffering and death as lovers embrace heroic challenges. But they do not embrace sin.

Furthermore, the cause of physical evil is spiritual evil. The cause of suffering is sin. After Genesis tells the story of the good God creating a good world, it next answers the obvious question "Where did evil come from then?" by the story of the fall of mankind. How are we to understand this? How can spiritual evil (sin) cause physical evil (suffering and death)?

God is the source of all life and joy. Therefore, when the human soul rebels against God, it loses its life and joy. Now a human being is body as well as soul. We are single creatures, not double: we are not even body and soul as much as we are embodied soul, or ensouled body. So the body must share in the soul's inevitable punishment—a punishment as natural and unavoidable as broken bones from jumping off a cliff or a sick stomach from eating rotten food rather than a punishment as artificial and external as a grade for a course or a slap on the hands for taking the cookies.

Whether this consequence of sin was a physical change in the world or only a spiritual change in human consciousness—whether the "thorns and thistles" grew in the garden only after the fall or whether they were always there but were only felt as painful by the newly fallen consciousness—is another question. But in either case the connection between spiritual evil and physical evil has to be as close as the connection between the two things they affect, the human soul and the human body.

If the origin of evil is free will, and God is the origin of free will, isn't God then the origin of evil? Only as parents are the origin of the misdeeds their children commit by being the origin of their children. The all-powerful God gave us a share in his power to choose freely. Would we prefer he had not and had made us robots rather than human beings?

The Cross is God's part of the practical solution to evil. Our part is to repent, to believe, and to work with God in fighting evil by the power of love.

A third part of the solution to the problem of evil is the most important part: how to resolve the problem in practice, not just in theory; in life, not just in thought. Although evil is a serious problem for thought (for it seems to disprove the existence of God), it is even more of a problem in life (for it is the real exclusion of God). But even if you think the solution in thought is obscure and uncertain, the solution in practice is as strong and clear as the sun: it is the Son. God's solution to the problem of evil is his Son Jesus Christ. The Father's love sent his Son to die for us to defeat the power of evil in human nature: that's the heart of the Christian story. We do not worship a deistic God, an absentee landlord who ignores his slum; we worship a garbageman God who came right down into our worst garbage to clean it up. How do we get God off the hook for allowing evil? God is not off the hook; God is the hook. That's the point of a crucifix.

The Cross is God's part of the practical solution to evil. Our part, according to the same Gospel, is to repent, to believe, and to work with God in fighting evil by the power of love. The King has invaded; we are finishing the mop-up operation.

Why do bad things happen  to good people?  The question makes three questionable assumptions.

Finally, what about the philosophical problem? It is not logically contradictory to say an all-powerful and all-loving God tolerates so much evil when he could eradicate it? Why do bad things happen to good people? The question makes three questionable assumptions.

First, who's to say we are good people? The question should be not "Why do bad things happen to good people?" but "Why do good things happen to bad people?" If the fairy godmother tells Cinderella that she can wear her magic gown until midnight, the question should be not "Why not after midnight?" but "Why did I get to wear it at all?" The question is not why the glass of water is half empty but why it is half full, for all goodness is gift. The best people are the ones who are most reluctant to call themselves good people. Sinners think they are saints, but saints know they are sinners. The best man who ever lived once said, "No one is good but God alone."

Second, who's to say suffering is all bad? Life without it would produce spoiled brats and tyrants, not joyful saints. Rabbi Abraham Heschel says simply, "The man who has not suffered, what can he possibly know, anyway?" Suffering can work for the greater good of wisdom. It is not true that all things are good, but it is true that "all things work together for good to those who love God."

Third, who's to say we have to know all God's reasons? Who ever promised us all the answers? Animals can't understand much about us; why should we be able to understand everything about God? The obvious point of the Book of Job, the world's greatest exploration of the problem of evil, is that we just don't know what God is up to. What a hard lesson to learn: Lesson One, that we are ignorant, that we are infants! No wonder Socrates was declared by the Delphic Oracle to be the wisest man in the world. He interpreted that declaration to mean that he alone knew that he did not have wisdom, and that was true wisdom for man.

A child on the tenth story of a burning building cannot see the firefighters with their safety net on the street. They call up, "Jump! We'll catch you. Trust us." The child objects, "But I can't see you." The firefighter replies, "That's all right. I can see you. We are like that child, evil is like the fire, our ignorance is like the smoke, God is like the firefighter, and Christ is like the safety net. If there are situations like this where we must trust even fallible human beings with our lives, where we must trust what we hear, not what we see, then it is reasonable that we must trust the infallible, all-seeing God when we hear from his word but do not see from our reason or experience. We cannot know all God's reasons, but we can know why we cannot know.

God has let us know a lot. He has lifted the curtain on the problem of evil with Christ. There, the greatest evil that ever happened, both the greatest spiritual evil and the greatest physical evil, both the greatest sin (deicide) and the greatest suffering (perfect love hated and crucified), is revealed as his wise and loving plan to bring about the greatest good, the salvation of the world from sin and suffering eternally. There, the greatest injustice of all time is integrated into the plan of salvation that Saint Paul calls "the righteousness (justice) of God". Love finds a way. Love is very tricky. But love needs to be trusted.

The worst aspect of the problem of evil is eternal evil, hell. Does hell not contradict a loving and omnipotent God? No, for hell is the consequence of free will. We freely choose hell for ourselves; God does not cast anyone into hell against his will. If a creature is really free to say yes or no to the Creator's offer of love and spiritual marriage, then it must be possible for the creature to say no. And that is what hell is, essentially. Free will, in turn, was created out of God's love. Therefore hell is a result of God's love. Everything is.

No sane person wants hell to exist. No sane person wants evil to exist. But hell is just evil eternalized. If there is evil and if there is eternity, there can be hell. If it is intellectually dishonest to disbelieve in evil just because it is shocking and uncomfortable, it is the same with hell. Reality has hard corners, surprises, and terrible dangers in it. We desperately need a true road map, not nice feelings, if we are to get home. It is true, as people often say, that "hell just feels unreal, impossible." Yes. So does Auschwitz. So does Calvary.

 

Perhaps atheists want God to destroy all black hearted people at this very moment. How many of them would be left?

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I say the atheists would fare just fine. Sure, if there was a god it would be nice if he would destroy all the black hearted people. And since so called christians out number the atheists I'd say there'd be more of them popped than atheists. Especially the ones that bear false witness against people they don't know. But seeing as how there is no god I don't see that happening.

oh yes best, rest assured there is a God but it don't help your case. [gengee]

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You will learn that most of us on this forum don't read long post.

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Your statement makes no sense at all. Atheist don't believe in God.

That statement would apply to many, many "Christians".

For those who claim to be religious but don't follow the teachings of the Bible, their suffering will be unbearable once the Judge arrives.

I read it HOD, excellent post.

 

I read it too, HoD. For those whose attention span is too short to read it, well it's their loss. It is an EXCELLENT post!

Isiah 45

"I am the Lord, and there is no other.

7I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the Lord, do all these things."

me too, HoD- wonderful wonderful post... Thanks for sharing!!

Veep, it's SO great to have you back!! I don't know if you've read any of the older posts, but if you have you will know that I have finally done what I've known I should do all along - I have converted and am taking catechism. It's great to have FOUR of us here now. For a while it was just Vic (and me, in my heart). He has done an admirable job defending the faith and now God has seen fit to bring in the "reinforcements". I know there is a reason that both you and HoD have returned, and I believe He is working through all of you (can't claim myself - YET) to shine a light on the Truth.

OH!!! O No! I am so happy, happy to read that!! that truly makes my heart sing!  

Consider yourself cyber-hugged!!!! Proud that you are embarking on the journey to full conversion, and would LOVE to be here to support you, along with HOD and Vic. 
I feel kind of guilty for leaving Vic alone- I know how horrible it is to be the only one to defend our faith on this forum- but, I had to take a hiatus. It was really doing myself harm to be in this "****ing contest" (can I say that here???)

My heart was not full of the love of the Lord, but, rather, it was angry at....well, you know....people that were constantly lying and attacking our faith. Instead of living love, I was becoming angry and defensive.

But, I don't know why, but I feel like I am armored better now- I have some clarity, and a vow to ignore the "pokes" that he makes. I've come to the conclusion that some people just talk (or type) to hear themselves speak, and i really just don't need/want any part of that. It's laughable, really. So as long as I approach this forum with that attitude, and try to engage in HONEST and open conversation, It will be fine. Make sense?  

 Anyway, I'm so glad to "see" you again!!!!! (((()))))))HUGS!!

Glad to see you Veep !!! O No is right this is a wonderful surprise. :-) Yay! God bless. Let's have fun !!!

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Seems I was wrong (again) so I'm going to go play in the road now.

Semi, I apologize for phrasing that the way I did. *I* don't read a lot of the long long posts from Bill or What4 either and I know most here don't. I also know it's not because of short attention spans, but because almost everything they post, they have already posted a thousand times.

 

But this one was WORTH reading. It is so good I think it is worth STUDYING.

 

Please forgive me my friend. You know I love you.

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Nothing to forgive. I don't read long post & shouldn't have assumed that most don't. My bad.

Love you too.......always.

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I'll be in the street with you semi,I didn't read it either.

 

Well Vic, go back and read it!!     

 

And Semi, I'll tell you something that is truer than true. If I didn't believe in God, I would have to change my mind because I would need to thank him for YOU. He has heaped so many blessings on me, and my sweet friend, YOU are one of the very best blessings of the bunch!

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Uh, Oh......Billy will preach to you for loving & being a good friend to a nasty, ole, hell bound non-believer like me.

Thank you but I'm not a great blessing. Just someone that treasures a true friend.

 

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Wow! Did you feel the wind from that 18 wheeler?