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quote:
Originally posted by ms. wonka:
Ok, first let me just say that I think a thread is allowed for a specific amount of time and is then deleted.


Secondly...Deep Fat, can you tell me where the very first living organism on earth was formed and how,then please explain the evolution process of the very first living organism and what was it called.



I went to the NEWS section, since it was the first section created on the NEW EVE FORUM, and it goes back to Nov 2006, so no, they don't delete older posts.

I think they delete according to member agreement, or that is the way it SHOULD be anyway.
Ms. W,

There is much available on the web and in print on this topic. I suggest "Cosmos" the companion book of the PBS science series. It has a good chapter on this very subject.

To oversimplify, however, naturally occurring chemicals, such as those we see on Venus and Jupiter now, were subjected to energy, catalyzing them to experiment with billions of chemical reactions and compounds. Over the course of time, some of those compounds became self-replicating, and thus, after a fashion, alive.

The famous Miller Urey experiment re-creates the environment of the early Earth, demonstrating how such chemicals can combine.

It is worth noting that about half of life's history on Earth occurred before the first single-celled organism.

Read up on it, it's interesting stuff. Here's a start: http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio106/origins.htm



DF
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
It already has.
DF


That's deep, Deep.

Depth is relative. To a child, the wading pool is deep. To an atheist, spiritual discernment is way, way over his head.

To a man of faith, God is the answer -- to all things.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Ms. W,

There is much available on the web and in print on this topic. I suggest "Cosmos" the companion book of the PBS science series. It has a good chapter on this very subject.

To oversimplify, however, naturally occurring chemicals, such as those we see on Venus and Jupiter now, were subjected to energy, catalyzing them to experiment with billions of chemical reactions and compounds. Over the course of time, some of those compounds became self-replicating, and thus, after a fashion, alive.

The famous Miller Urey experiment re-creates the environment of the early Earth, demonstrating how such chemicals can combine.

It is worth noting that about half of life's history on Earth occurred before the first single-celled organism.

Read up on it, it's interesting stuff. Here's a start: http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio106/origins.htm
DF

But, Deep, where did those "naturally occurring chemicals" come from? That is her question.

You talk about "this is how you throw a football" -- but, you ignore the question, "Where did the football come from?"

Why don't you, rather than refer her to many evolutionist written web sites -- why don't you answer her question, in your own words?

Everything had a beginning. Where did the process of evolution begin?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by ms. wonka:
D F No living organism has ever been created in a lab. Why not? If the big bang theory and evolution is how we came into existance then why can't it be recreated? That would put an end to the Creationism theory once and for all.


Would it?

Some scientists claim to ahve already done so:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-03d.html

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070607_mycoplasma.htm
quote:
Originally posted by ms. wonka:
Nope Big Grin you still did not answer my question. Where and how did the very first living organism come from and what was it called? Note: I said "very first livingorganism"


Viruses reside on the border between inanimate objects and life but they are living organisms. Something very much like them were likely the first forms of life.

You view, Ms. Wonka, is the equivalent of standing at the bottom of 500 foot vertical cliff and proclaiming that it is impossible to leap to the top. What you don't know is that, on the other side of that cliff, hidden from your view, is a gently rolling slope with a meandering path that leads to the top.

Life most likely began thusly. The universe is pregnant with complex chemicals. We find amino acids on meteors and comets. The early earth was literally made of this stuff. Chemicals react with one another to form other chemicals. Complexity increases over time. Over hundreds and hundreds of millions of years of these reactions, something just a little more miraculous and organized than a silicon crystal, perhaps something that resembled a virus, gained the ability to replicate itself. Very small changes in these barely-live organisms led to an immeasurable increase in complexity. Change built upon change. Life upon life. Tens of hundreds of millions of years later, we have the complexity we see today.

Humans are not able to fit the concept of "unimaginably long time" in their brains. But it is easy to see how complexity can increase over time.

One you grasp the concept of infinitesimally small changes over vast periods of time, you will understand the foundation of evolution. Nothing evil. Nothing unexplainable. Nothing scary. Just small changes over time that led to beings that can contemplate their origins.

. . . . Either than or some superintelligent space alien zapped everything into existence with one snap of his finger. Yeah, that makes more sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Miamizsun and all,

I agree that when some posts become offensive those posts should be deleted -- without deleting the entire discussion.

But, maybe it is just easier for the moderators to delete the entire discussion; rather than have to wade through the whole discussion looking for offensive posts. Maybe if folks use the "Report This Post" button it would make the mods job easier and they would not do the complete hatchet job.

I, too, enjoyed the Evolution discussion and was sad to see it deleted entirely.

On the other hand, maybe this can be a wake-up call for us. If we work at not being offensive in our posts -- to anyone -- there would be no reason to delete any posts.


I can agree here.

To delete post is simple - a click of a mouse. To remove an entire thread which has/had a lot more bona fide material isn't fair. But hey, it is their forum and they can do whatever they want.

Offensive is subjective and in the heat of argument/debate one usually tries to stand on intellectual honesty and tries to keep ego in check. We all have "reasons" why we believe what we believe. Either you have good reasons or you don't. We're all hoping to change someone's mind to our views, especially in light of new data. I'm not perfect, but I am human and I will never intentionally offend someone on a personal level. Does it happen? I'm certain it does.

We can exchange comments and still remain friends, no matter how misguided we may feel the other person might be....

regards, miamizsun
Last edited by miamizsun
Hi Miamizsun,

You say, "Offensive is subjective and in the heat of argument/debate one usually tries to stand on intellectual honesty and tries to keep ego in check. We all have "reasons" why we believe what we believe. Either you have good reasons or you don't. We're all hoping to change someone's mind to our views, especially in light of new data. I'm not perfect, but I am human and I will never intentionally offend someone on a personal level. Does it happen? I'm certain it does."

You have never offended me. But, when others start calling folks names, i.e., liar, stupid, ignorant, etc. -- this certainly is no way to win others to your point of view. Which leads me to believe that such folks are not trying to win others to their point of view; but, instead are making a feeble attempt to show their "self-ordained" superiority and "self-proclaimed" intellectual knowledge to the world. I feel sorry for them as they, in effect, are screaming to the world, "Don't you see how intellectual I am? Please see how smart I am." This effort at self-elevation by attempting to degrade others is like a child doing something forbidden just to get mommy's attention.

I have enjoyed my dialogues with you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
quote:
Originally posted by Kool-Aid:
I think that instead of pointing fingers at Bill, perhaps you should all take a look at yourselves.

Whoever had that thread deleted was clearly looking out for your spiritual safety. Try and open your eyes a little. What this imposter "Kenn Ham" brought was evil, despicable, and yes, dangerous. It was a form of humor, and God does not like it.

If you'll open your Bible to Genesis 6:13, God says... well, I'll tell you, it isn't funny. Turn to Job 2:4. Again, dry and serious. What we see here is a clear indication that God not only lacks a sense of humor, he actually hates humor and wants man to have no part of it.

Throughout the Bible, God has reserved laughter for those whose enemies have been smitten, or whose bellies are full. Laughter is for ridicule or holy gratitute. It is not to be used as a response to satire, which is quite possibly the Devil's work.

God bless us all, everyone.


God hates humor? Satire is the work of the devil? Laughter is for ridicule or holy gratitude? So, we are to believe that God does not want man to laugh unless he is ridiculing someone or something or for giving holy gratitude. That just sounds as if God does not want us to be a happy people. Hmmmmmm... sounds strange. I was taught that God wanted his people to be happy and loving. What you state is the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, it's FUNNY, almost satirical of how things should be. I laughed so hard I spewed my drink out of my nose. I'm still laughing, but don't worry, it is to ridicule what you said not because I enjoyed the content.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Lynn,

As Persident of the Maerican Society Dyslexic Agnotsic Insomnicas of, I am highly offneded at your pathetic idae a joke of.

Frist, there is a dog.

You'll be haering from our laywer.

DF
12:42 a.m.

Hi Deep,

For the very first time -- something you have said makes sense. Keep up the good work!

God bless, have a wonderul, blessed day,

Bill

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For Bill:


http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/fish/fish.html

The Pagan fish symbol


However, let's go back to a time even before St. Clement, since Paganism has been around much longer than Christianity.

Neo-pagans are often quick to point out, that the fish is not a Christian owned symbol at all, but was derived from a sexually related image. The fish symbol was often drawn by overlapping two thin crescent moons, signifying a woman's cycle. (See also Lunate Cross.)

In Babylonian mythology, a fish pushed a giant egg out of the river Euphrates, and from this egg emerged the mermaid and fertility goddess of the seas, Atargatis. The son of Atargatis was named Ichthys. There are a few other Pagan goddesses and gods that manifest themselves as dolphin, fish or other sea creature, and most seem to be connected with sexuality. The oval outline of a fish was compared to the shape of the womb, and both 'fish' and 'womb' homophonously shared the ancient Greek word delphos. (See also Dolphin Cross.)
quote:
Originally posted by daniel16215:
For Bill:


http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/fish/fish.html

The Pagan fish symbol


However, let's go back to a time even before St. Clement, since Paganism has been around much longer than Christianity.

Neo-pagans are often quick to point out, that the fish is not a Christian owned symbol at all, but was derived from a sexually related image. The fish symbol was often drawn by overlapping two thin crescent moons, signifying a woman's cycle. (See also Lunate Cross.)

In Babylonian mythology, a fish pushed a giant egg out of the river Euphrates, and from this egg emerged the mermaid and fertility goddess of the seas, Atargatis. The son of Atargatis was named Ichthys. There are a few other Pagan goddesses and gods that manifest themselves as dolphin, fish or other sea creature, and most seem to be connected with sexuality. The oval outline of a fish was compared to the shape of the womb, and both 'fish' and 'womb' homophonously shared the ancient Greek word delphos. (See also Dolphin Cross.)


Stop it. You'll just confuse them.
GAAA!!! I've promised myself to not jump into these arguments any more, but I have one question for you, DF...


To quote from Deep:

To oversimplify, however, naturally occurring chemicals, such as those we see on Venus and Jupiter now, were subjected to energy, catalyzing them to experiment with billions of chemical reactions and compounds. Over the course of time, some of those compounds became self-replicating, and thus, after a fashion, alive.


Where did this energy come from and what was it? Just curious, thanks.
Hi Daniel,

While anyone who wants to search can usually find something pagan, lewd, or vulgar about most any symbol; there is a specific significance to the Christian fish symbol. The main purpose for this symbol was to recognize and be recognized by brothers and sisters in Christ -- while avoiding those who only wanted to persecute Christians.

The excerpt below from the web page http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/symbols/fish.htm explains this very well.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The fish was an early symbol of Christian faith that endures today on bumper stickers and businesses as a sign of Christian faith.

(1) The fish is thought to have been chosen by the early Christians for several reasons: the Greek word for fish (ICHTUS), works nicely as an acrostic for "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior" and,

(2) The fish would not be an obvious Christian symbol to persecutors, and

(3) Jesus' ministry is associated with fish: He chose several fishermen to be His disciples and declared He would make them "fishers of men."

It is said that during the persecution of the early church, a Christian meeting someone new would draw a single arc in the sand. If the other person was a Christian, he or she would complete the drawing of a fish with a second arc. If the second person was not a Christian, the ambiguity of the half-symbol would not reveal the first person as a Christian.

The second fish symbol above is the ICHTHUS fish, with the Greek word for fish written out to emphasize the symbolic acrostic described above.

Although the word looks like IXOYE, the letters are from the Greek alphabet, so the "I" is actually an iota, the "X" is actually a chi, the "O" is actually a theta, the "Y" is an upsilon, and the "E" or "C" at the end is a sigma. Taking the first sound from each of these Greek letter names, we get the transliteration into our alphabet of ICHTHUS.

Today, when Christians in the West do not need to worry about persecution, the Christian fish symbol often has "Jesus" written inside or includes a cross symbol.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

All Christian brothers and sisters should recognize the Christian fish -- for we still wear it as a proud symbol of our relationship with Jesus Christ. And, all non-believers will still scoff at it or try to paste a pagan or lewd label upon it. Not a problem, they see what they want to see -- believers see it as our Badge of Honor.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
mando,

Heat, lightning, motion.... natural forms of energy. DF

Hi Deep,

Interesting -- but, did they just pop out of nothing? Or were they created?

Seems rather obvious that the God who created all other forms of matter and energy -- also created these.

Or did they just evolve from a little "energy" cell floating in that primordial swamp?

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Mr. Bill,

We're having a serious discussion here, and we have no time for your religion of nothingness (What created god? Nothing).

Please get back to us on another topic. Thanks.

DF

Hi Deep,

In other words, you are saying, "I have no answer" so I'll just resort to my normal atheistic response: when stumped -- say something "I" consider cute.

Sorry, Deep, all this says to me is that you have no answer. Which I do honestly appreciate. It is very difficult for a person, who absolutely refuses to acknowledge God, to give an answer -- when everything points toward God.

But, the silver lining is, Deep, that God has not given up on you yet. He still is wanting to see you open your heart -- and let Him open your spiritual eyes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
In other words, you are saying, "I have no answer"...

Sorry, Deep, all this says to me is that you have no answer. Which I do honestly appreciate. It is very difficult for a person, who absolutely refuses to acknowledge God, to give an answer -- when everything points toward God.

Am I then correct in making the same type of assumption based on your lack of a response here, Bill?

Click me.

Glad I can count your silence as acknowledgement that you've finally embraced reason over fantasy. Welcome aboard, Bill. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by mandomama:
Thanks for the reply, DF.

Just to throw something out into the argument, how did the natural elements/energy come into being?


http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current...t_billion_years.html

This gives some of the info about early earth. Really interesting stuff (at least I think so) I think one of the main problems folks encounter when looking at formation of earth, life... is the amount of time involved. 4.5 billion years. If that can be even slightly imagined (which I have trouble thinking millions of years let alone hundreds of million, billions...) it makes understanding evolution of life a bit easier.

The Earliest Atmosphere, Oceans and Continents
After loss of the hydrogen, helium and other hydrogen-containing gases from early Earth due to the Sun's radiation, primitive Earth was devoid of an atmosphere. The first atmosphere was formed by outgassing of gases trapped in the interior of the early Earth, which still goes on today in volcanoes.
For the Early Earth, extreme volcanism occurred during differentiation, when massive heating and fluid-like motion in the mantle occurred. It is likely that the bulk of the atmosphere was derived from degassing early in the Earth's history.


Life started to have a major impact on the environment once photosynthetic organisms evolved. These organisms, blue-green algae (picture of stromatolite, which is the rock formed by these algae), fed off atmospheric carbon dioxide and converted much of it into marine sediments consisting of the shells of sea creatures.

While photosynthetic life reduced the carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere, it also started to produce oxygen. For a long time, the oxygen produced did not build up in the atmosphere, since it was taken up by rocks, as recorded in Banded Iron Formations (BIFs; picture) and continental red beds. To this day, the majority of oxygen produced over time is locked up in the ancient "banded rock" and "red bed" formations. It was not until probably only 1 billion years ago that the reservoirs of oxidizable rock became saturated and the free oxygen stayed in the air.

Once oxygen had been produced, ultraviolet light split the molecules, producing the ozone UV shield as a by-product. Only at this point did life move out of the oceans and respiration evolved. We will discuss these issues in greater detail later on in this course.

Early Oceans
The Early atmosphere was probably dominated at first by water vapor, which, as the temperature dropped, would rain out and form the oceans. This would have been a deluge of truly global proportions an resulted in further reduction of CO2. Then the atmosphere was dominated by nitrogen, but there was certainly no oxygen in the early atmosphere. The dominance of Banded-Iron Formations (BIFs; see picture) before 2.5Ga indicates that Fe occurred in its reduced state (Fe2+). Whereas reduced Fe is much more soluble than oxidized Fe (Fe3+), it rapidly oxidizes during transport. However, the dissolved O in early oceans reacted with Fe to form Fe-oxide in BIFs. As soon as sufficient O entered the atmosphere, Fe takes the oxidized state and is no longer soluble. The first occurrence of redbeds, a sediments that contains oxidized iron, marks this major transition in Earth's atmosphere.
Hi Daniel,

I have seen you copy/paste volumes of words from other writers -- but, I have seldom seen you write more than a few caustic comments.

Is there a reason for this? Do you not have any original thoughts of your own? Do you always have to rely upon what someone else has written?

Forgive me, Daniel -- but, I have a strong feeling that if someone had not CREATED copy/paste -- you would be in dire trouble.

Dialogues are interesting; even when I do not agree with the other person. But, how do you dialogue with copy/paste material?

I would love to dialogue with you -- but, only if it is you and not another copy/paste.

Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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