Flags, Crosses & Circuses... And Apathy!!:

Visit any church parking lot in my town, during Sunday services, and count the flags, yellow ribbons and bumper stickers that in reality support the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. Would Jesus condone what our country is doing?
http://www.informationclearing...nfo/article25313.htm
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Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
Is this an admission that you don't support our troops?


Face it, Hoober--the "troops" have been and always will be pawns in the game in which old men send young men to war. Sometimes those wars are justified; sometimes they are not. The "troops" went to Vietnam and over 50,000 of them never came back alive, and THAT was a misbegotten war that gained this nation nothing.

The Bushian/Rumsfeldian/Cheneyian misadventure in Iraq was a huge error, engendered by bogus information, and it has gained us nothing close to what it has cost us and never will. It is not my obligation or anyone else's to support either of those wars simply because we sent thousands of troops to fight in them. If those wars were wrong, they were wrong.

As to Afghanistan, we can fairly claim justification for the initial invasion of that nation, which harbored the Taliban, a demonstrated enemy of this nation, connected to 9/11. But our fumbling leaders messed that one up by moving the "troops" out too soon and hastily transferring too many of them to Iraq, thus leaving the opportunity for a Taliban comeback, which is just what happened.

So, Hoober, it is not such a simple proposition as whether one does or does not "support the troops. The larger, and meaningful, question is whether the wars we initiate are wars deserving of the support of the American people.

Going back to Korea, and Vietnam, and Iraq--it looks like this country has pretty sorry record of choosing when and where to wage war. Our losses in lives and treasure hardly justify those engagements. The "troops" who died in those wars did what they were told, as all good soldiers do, but what they were told to do was in many ways waste and folly, and that is no way to treat the "troops."
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Going back to Korea, and Vietnam, and Iraq--it looks like this country has pretty sorry record of choosing when and where to wage war. Our losses in lives and treasure hardly justify those engagements. The "troops" who died in those wars did what they were told, as all good soldiers do, but what they were told to do was in many ways waste and folly, and that is no way to treat the "troops."

Hi Beter,

Have you EVER seen a person who has a malignant cancer cured of that cancer -- by just sitting at home, ignoring medical treatment, and waiting? Can't say that I have.

The same is true of those who would destroy our freedoms. Be they Communists, Terrorists, Nazis, Socialists, etc. -- they have one goal in life -- to spread, like cancer, to cover the entire world.

In World War 2, we fought Nazism and Socialism. In Korea and Vietnam, we fought Communism. In Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. -- we are fighting a mixture of Islam and Terrorism -- the two go hand in hand.

So, you might consider our war in the Middle East to be a form or Chemotherapy -- an attempt to prevent the "cancer" from spreading to our homes, our neighborhoods, our cities, states, and nation. Of course, we could just sit back, ignore the disease -- and wait. Wait for what? For the "cancer" to spread -- until it brings death to our homes?

Is that what you want? Do the ladies in your family have their Burkas pressed and ready to wear -- to all the funerals?

Sorry, my Friend, not me. I went to Korea; ready to serve my country; ready to keep Communism over there -- and not over here. While many like you protested the "unfair wars" -- many other brave Americans went into harm's way -- to give those "protesters" the freedom to protest.

Yes, we must fight evil -- and it is better to fight it in their countries -- rather than in my backyard.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
In World War 2, we fought Nazism and Socialism. In Korea and Vietnam, we fought Communism. In Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. -- we are fighting a mixture of Islam and Terrorism -- the two go hand in hand.

wrong. stereotypical and judgemental (sic) generalization. Islam is a peaceful religion. EXTREMISTS can occur in any religion, Bill.

Hi VP,

Somehow, I get the feeling that if I said, "Doo doo stinks!" -- you would swear it smelled like roses! And, YOU tell me that my writings are full of hate?

Okay, let's talk about your Religion Of Peace, Islam.

From the web site: TheReligionOfPeace.Com http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

About TheReligionofPeace.com

TheReligionofPeace.com is a non-partisan and pluralistic site concerned with Islam's true political and cultural teachings according to its own texts. We are not associated with nor funded by any organization. Here is why we exist:

On 9/11, nineteen devout Muslims believed they had a religious mandate to fly planes into buildings and slaughter thousands of innocent people.

The Muslim world erupted with outrage over this horrible act of mass murder. Massive demonstrations were held in nearly every Muslim country and Western city. At these demonstrations, Muslim leaders harshly denounced Islamic terror and shared the many hundreds of verses from the Qur'an that encourage universal brotherhood, peace and tolerance. A slew of fatwas and clerical condemnations against terror soon followed.

Tens of millions of ordinary Muslims also reacted by rallying against violence and demanding that their leaders root out and eliminate the Islamic terrorists and their supporters. These same Muslims and their clerics called for introspection and atonement, accepting the role that the radical elements of their religion played in the attacks, and committing themselves to combating and eradicating the misinterpretation of their religion - the Religion of Peace...

Well, not quite.

Obviously this didn't happen. If it had, then Islamic terror would have ended -- 9/11 would have been a singular event -- and this web site would not exist.

Unfortunately, the optimistic and fictitious picture that we just painted of Muslim reaction to terror and the predominance of peaceful Qur'anic verses could not be any further from the truth. In fact, some Muslims actually celebrated the attacks, and not just overseas, but even in the offices of the U.S. State Department.

A member of the Islamist group, Hamas, actually described the attacks as "one of the miracles of the Qur'an." Australia's Grand Mufti said they were "God's work against oppressors." Even Islamic apologist pollsters, Esposito and Mogahed, were forced to admit that about 1 out of 3 Muslims worldwide view the terrorism of 9/11 as justified (about 450 million believers).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Okay, so what do the Islamic books, the Qur'an and the Hadith, tell us about the religion of Islam?

On TheReligionofPeace.com -- Guide to Understanding Islam http://www.thereligionofpeace....ran/023-violence.htm

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The Qur'an contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text - as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.

FROM THE QUR'AN:

Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

FROM THE HADITH:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Muslim (1:33) - The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"

Tabari 9:69 - "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

In fact, many Muslims are simply unaware of the Qur'an's near absence of verses that preach universal non-violence. This is because their understanding of Islam comes from what they are taught by others. In the West, it is typical for Muslims to come to believe that their religion must be like Christianity - preaching the New Testament virtues of peace, love, and tolerance - because Muslims are taught that Islam is supposed to be superior in every way. They are somewhat surprised and embarrassed to learn that the evidence of the Qur'an and the bloody history of Islam are very much in contradiction to this.

For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking on the altar of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous.

There are just too many Muslims who take the Qur'an literally... and too many others who couldn't care less about the violence done in the name of Islam.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And, VP, my Friend -- that is your Religion of Peace, Islam. To me, even though there are many very nice people who are Muslim -- the religion itself teaches murder, death, destruction, world domination -- all in the name of Allah.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
In World War 2, we fought Nazism and Socialism. In Korea and Vietnam, we fought Communism. In Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. -- we are fighting a mixture of Islam and Terrorism -- the two go hand in hand.

wrong. stereotypical and judgemental (sic) generalization. Islam is a peaceful religion. EXTREMISTS can occur in any religion, Bill.

Hi VP,

Somehow, I get the feeling that if I said, "Doo doo stinks!" -- you would swear it smelled like roses! And, YOU tell me that my writings are full of hate?

Okay, let's talk about your Religion Of Peace, Islam.



no, lets talk about the peaceful religion of christianity.

Islam hates christians and wants to kill us?

with the extensive list of 'crusades' launched primarily against muslems, i can't imagine why they'd hate us.
everyone knows about ' the crusades'. do you know how many there were?
nine.
7 were aimed at muslims.
all 7 were started by " christians"

let's talk about the spanish inquisition.


good, peaceful muslims look at these whack-job extremists the same way christians look at the inquisition and the kkk, who also used god's word to justify killing people.
Bill Gray, you need to realize that in going into Iraq on false premises, this nation acted on the basis of LIES about "weapons of mass destruction." And our entry into that war has coaxed out a whole lot of Muslim antagonism that would not have developed if we had stayed out of there. Iraq became a rallying point for Al Qaeda, which for practical purposes was non-existent in iraq before our ill-considered invasion. Saddam Hussein was hostile to Al Qaeda. With Iraq, this nation created a cause for Islamic extremists to use in recruiting more young Muslim recruits ready to offer their very lives to oppose the "Great Satan."
That is no way to make things safer for this country; it has the opposite effect.

No, Bill, the war in Iraq is NOT a form of chemotherapy. It is, in fact, a form of metastatic spread of Islamic violence, encouraged by our decision to invade a nation on false pretenses.
quote:
Somehow, I get the feeling that if I said, "Doo doo stinks!" -- you would swear it smelled like roses! And, YOU tell me that my writings are full of hate?


Bill Gray there is nothing hateful about what I said. I simply said, and will maintain, that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is extremists (who can pop up anywhere) that give Muslims that false stereotype.
So, sorry, no, I'm not full of hate.
But I do "hate" prejudice.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Bill Gray, you need to realize that in going into Iraq on false premises, this nation acted on the basis of LIES about "weapons of mass destruction." And our entry into that war has coaxed out a whole lot of Muslim antagonism that would not have developed if we had stayed out of there. Iraq became a rallying point for Al Qaeda, which for practical purposes was non-existent in iraq before our ill-considered invasion. Saddam Hussein was hostile to Al Qaeda. With Iraq, this nation created a cause for Islamic extremists to use in recruiting more young Muslim recruits ready to offer their very lives to oppose the "Great Satan."
That is no way to make things safer for this country; it has the opposite effect.

No, Bill, the war in Iraq is NOT a form of chemotherapy. It is, in fact, a form of metastatic spread of Islamic violence, encouraged by our decision to invade a nation on false pretenses.


beter,
You have no proof that Iraq did not have WMD's. You only have what the liberal media told everybody. I have spoken with Soldiers who would swear by their children's lives that Iraq DID have WMD's. One of those guys is about to ship out for his third tour in Iraq. During his last tour, he worked with Iraqi soldiers who told him of the horrors of Hussein's WMD's and where the unused ones had been moved before the investigation began: Syria, Turkey and Kuwait.
US Army (Retired) Major General Gary Harrell corroborated this. "If someone tries to tell you there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, they're either lying or stupid."
Why don't you google the name? His is a very interesting service record.
thenagel,
There's more to being a Christian than just using God's name.
"Lord, did we not do all this in Your Name?"
"Depart from me, you workers of sin, for I never knew you."

Farmer Brown had never attended a church service his entire 76 years. He decided he was going to give it a shot. Donning his best overalls, he showed up at church the very next Sunday. At the end of the service, the pastor was shaking hands with all who had attended. Farmer Brown had his turn and the pastor said, "I want you to go home and ask Jesus what you need to wear when you come to my church."
"All right, preacher."
The next Sunday found Farmer Brown back at the service in his best overalls again. The pastor was livid as he spoke to Farmer Brown.
"I thought I told you to go home and ask Jesus what you needed to wear when you came to my church!"
"I did, preacher. Jesus said He didn't know because He had never been here before, either."
quote:
Just because you choose to not support our men and women in the armed forces because you believe it is an unjust war


I don't think you have to be supportive of the war itself, the premises upon which it began, to support the individual troops.
Personally, I do not agree with the Iraq war. But I admire and support the INDIVIDUALS who are there on our behalf. They are brave souls who are following their orders, and I pray they all come home safely. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with the agenda that took them there to begin with.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Bill Gray, you need to realize that in going into Iraq on false premises, this nation acted on the basis of LIES about "weapons of mass destruction." And our entry into that war has coaxed out a whole lot of Muslim antagonism that would not have developed if we had stayed out of there. Iraq became a rallying point for Al Qaeda, which for practical purposes was non-existent in iraq before our ill-considered invasion. Saddam Hussein was hostile to Al Qaeda. With Iraq, this nation created a cause for Islamic extremists to use in recruiting more young Muslim recruits ready to offer their very lives to oppose the "Great Satan."
That is no way to make things safer for this country; it has the opposite effect.

No, Bill, the war in Iraq is NOT a form of chemotherapy. It is, in fact, a form of metastatic spread of Islamic violence, encouraged by our decision to invade a nation on false pretenses.


beter,
You have no proof that Iraq did not have WMD's. You only have what the liberal media told everybody. I have spoken with Soldiers who would swear by their children's lives that Iraq DID have WMD's. One of those guys is about to ship out for his third tour in Iraq. During his last tour, he worked with Iraqi soldiers who told him of the horrors of Hussein's WMD's and where the unused ones had been moved before the investigation began: Syria, Turkey and Kuwait.
US Army (Retired) Major General Gary Harrell corroborated this. "If someone tries to tell you there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, they're either lying or stupid."
Why don't you google the name? His is a very interesting service record.


General Harrell was wrong about a number of things. Example:

"Harrell said the evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq was solid as far he was concerned, and he said the trailers recovered that indicate use as mobile biological labs backed that up, even though they have been called into question in recent weeks."

Source: http://www.somalilandtimes.net/2003/74/7410.shtml

Harrell, like many other warmongers, was very anxious to believe that Saddam had WMDs. That would make it easy to justify the invasion. Neither Harrell nor anyone else has come up with real proof that Saddam had WMD. The WMD fabrication was the creature of wishful thinking by military and political types who were much too eager to find some "reason" to invade Iraq. They found no WMD, but to save face, some of them still insist that there really were WMD and spin off all those unproven and unprovable stories about WMD in the Euphrates River, in Syria, in Timbuctu, etc.

All of it was a convenient mythology to "justify" the catastrophic misadventure that the fumbleton Bush and the warmongering neocons Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc. were bound and determined to plunge this country into.

Here is the TRUTH on those dreaded trailers:

"The information behind the mobile vehicles had come from the multiple informants but the main and most important one was known as Curveball. Curveball, an Iraqi asylum in Germany claimed that after he had graduated top of his chemical engineering class at Baghdad University in 1994 [3] he worked for “Dr. Germ,” British-trained microbiologist Rihab Rashid Taha to led a team that built mobile labs to brew deadly bio WMD[3]was never actually interviewed by the American intelligence and eventually in May 2004, over a year after the invasion of Iraq, the CIA concluded formally that Curveball's information was fabricated. Furthermore on June 26 2006, the Washington Post reported that "the CIA acknowledged that Curveball was a con artist who drove a taxi in Iraq and spun his engineering knowledge into a fantastic but plausible tale about secret bioweapons factories on wheels."[2]
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_weapons_laboratory

More on the trailer tales:

"In an interview with Polish television on May 29, 2003, President Bush stated: "We found the weapons of mass destruction." Bush was referencing two trailers or "mobile labs" discovered in Iraq.

Just days earlier, the Defense Intelligence Agency had concluded that the trailers "could not be used as a transportable biological production system as the system is presently configured." It was ultimately acknowledged that the trailers had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction and were probably used to manufacture hydrogen employed in weather balloons."

Feom:http://projects.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/Default.aspx?src=project_home&context=key_false_statements&id=946


Here4 is a link to a big ole Congressional report on the WMD business. Read it and see how shaky the warmongers' arguments were!

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

Some more goodies, from the Center for Public Integrity:

"In a national radio address on September 28, 2002, President Bush flatly asserted: "The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons, is rebuilding the facilities to make more and, according to the British government, could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order is given. The regime has long-standing and continuing ties to terrorist groups, and there are al Qaeda terrorists inside Iraq. This regime is seeking a nuclear bomb, and with fissile material could build one within a year."

What the American people did not know at the time was that, just three weeks before Bush's radio address, in early September, Central Intelligence Agency Director George Tenet told the Senate Intelligence Committee that there was no National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Such an assessment had not been done in years because nobody within the intelligence community had deemed it necessary, and, remarkably, nobody at the White House had requested that it be done.

The CIA put the NIE together in less than three weeks. It proved to be false. As the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence later concluded, "Postwar findings do not support the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) judgment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program."

FROM: http://projects.publicintegrit...se_statements&id=946

Lies and the lying liars who tell them! The Pentagon and the White House were full of them!

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