This is bound to come up for discussion, so I will post it here:

 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011...hool-football-games/

 

http://www.waaytv.com/news/loc...v2kynHGt0ImmThg.cspx

 

The articles describe the decision of John Mullins, superintendent of Arab City Schools in Arab, to discontinue pregame prayer at Arab High School after receiving a letter from the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

 

Please note that this is a case where an official of civil government obviously considers himself to be vested with civil governmental authority to decide whether or not a public prayer is to be allowed to be uttered over the public address systems of those stadiums in his governmental jurisdiction where official school athletic events are held.

 

How long will it take for some civil governmental officials in Alabama and elsewhere to come to grips with the well-established legal reality that state-controlled religious observances in public, government-supervised venues are UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!??

 

And before any of you theocrats out there get your ecclesiastical panties in too tight a wad, consider this question:

 

Do you truly believe that officials of the civil government should have authority to tell public school children when to pray, to whom to pray, for what to pray, or in whose name to pray?  THAT, dear friends, is what happens when “school prayer,” as practiced in the past, is allowed in public school classrooms or other public school venues.

 

I continue to be astonished at the dissonance, within the conservative ranks, exemplified by those who favor that kind of prayer in the public schools.  The same people who insist that “the government needs to stay out of our private lives” and that the “government which governs best is the government which governs least” are nevertheless willing to allow government to design, prescribe and control the religious exercises of captive audiences of public school children in public (i.e. GOVERNMENT-operated) public school classrooms.

 

Go figure!

I yam what I yam and that's all I yam--but it is enough!

Original Post

Yes, and they are all the time harping about others pushing their views, lifestyles, what have you, on them and yet, this is the same thing!

 

What is wrong with a moment of silence? That way, if they want to pray to themselves, they can.

 

I think the principle made the right decision!

You wouldn't be against it if you didn't see it as your chance to take a swing at conservatives. The entire school can't be made up of conservatives, and this has gone on for 10 years. BTW, there goes the argument that schools don't have prayer. No matter how many examples they're given christians will still argue it doesn't happen. On the comments page there it gets heated with atheists being blamed once again for people who are doing unlawful things getting called on it. Some want the entire group to stand and recite a prayer before a game. Fine, if they insist I can see others demanding equal time so to speak,and pretty soon they won't be able to have games at all. What I don't understand is why they feel they have to pray before the game. It's a sporting event, not a church meeting. Pray or have your "moment of silence" before you leave home.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You wouldn't be against it if you didn't see it as your chance to take a swing at conservatives. The entire school can't be made up of conservatives, and this has gone on for 10 years. BTW, there goes the argument that schools don't have prayer. No matter how many examples they're given christians will still argue it doesn't happen. On the comments page there it gets heated with atheists being blamed once again for people who are doing unlawful things getting called on it. Some want the entire group to stand and recite a prayer before a game. Fine, if they insist I can see others demanding equal time so to speak,and pretty soon they won't be able to have games at all. What I don't understand is why they feel they have to pray before the game. It's a sporting event, not a church meeting. Pray or have your "moment of silence" before you leave home.

*****

 

I am, and long have been, against government-directed religious observances, irrespective of whether they are promoted by conservatives, liberals, Rosicrucians, animists, Druids or any other faction, cult, or  coven whatsoever. The reason I referred to conservatives is because approximately 99.999% of the blithering that I hear and read about "bringing prayer back to the schools" or "taking back this country for God" or other such unconstitutional, ignorantly advanced objectives originates within the conservative sector.

I wish our local School board would get a letter from the FFRF.  At the high school my nephew goes to, (Wilson) they do it all the time. I have also gone to a game at Brooks and it was the same thing. The prayer was said in Jesus name Amen.

 

Unconstitutional.

 

For the kids that want to pray before a game there is nothing stopping them. They can pray to the deity of their choice. For it to be led over the loud speaker and directed at one particular deity is just wrong.

 

Great job Arab Principal!!!!

Hi all,

 

Gee, based upon your logic -- the schools not only should, but MUST remove all water fountains from school property.  Why?  Because having water fountains on school property means that MY CHILDREN will have to drink water because the other kids are drinking water.

 

And, also, remove all urinals -- for, if a girl should accidentally wander into the wrong toilet she may get an inferiority complex because she cannot pee in the urinal.

 

After all, we MUST be fair to ALL the students.  Therefore, drinking fountains and urinals on school property are UNCONSTITUTIONAL! 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Gee, based upon your logic -- the schools not only should, but MUST remove all water fountains from school property.  Why?  Because having water fountains on school property means that MY CHILDREN will have to drink water because the other kids are drinking water.

 

And, also, remove all urinals -- for, if a girl should accidentally wander into the wrong toilet she may get an inferiority complex because she cannot pee in the urinal.

 

After all, we MUST be fair to ALL the students.  Therefore, drinking fountains and urinals on school property are UNCONSTITUTIONAL! 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

--

This is the most intensely nitwitted thing I've read in a while. For shame.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Gee, based upon your logic -- the schools not only should, but MUST remove all water fountains from school property.  Why?  Because having water fountains on school property means that MY CHILDREN will have to drink water because the other kids are drinking water.

 

And, also, remove all urinals -- for, if a girl should accidentally wander into the wrong toilet she may get an inferiority complex because she cannot pee in the urinal.

 

After all, we MUST be fair to ALL the students.  Therefore, drinking fountains and urinals on school property are UNCONSTITUTIONAL! 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

--

This is the most intensely nitwitted thing I've read in a while. For shame.

 

**********************

Amen, Winston! Bill has sunk to a new level of irrelevance and polemic incompetence. His last commentary on this topic is appropriately disposed of in either a urinal or a toilet, being on a par with the materials that normally find their way to these conveniences.

Bill Gray, you and other theocratically-inclined persons tend to avoid the argument I made above, specifically:

 

<<<<<"I continue to be astonished at the dissonance, within the conservative ranks, exemplified by those who favor that kind of prayer in the public schools.  The same people who insist that “the government needs to stay out of our private lives” and that the “government which governs best is the government which governs least” are nevertheless willing to allow government to design, prescribe and control the religious exercises of captive audiences of public school children in public (i.e. GOVERNMENT-operated) public school classrooms.>>>>>>>

 

Why don't you address this matter straight on?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

And, also, remove all urinals -- for, if a girl should accidentally wander into the wrong toilet she may get an inferiority complex because she cannot pee in the urinal.

Bill

_____________________

Good grief!!! What does where you pee have to do with prayer????

I peed in a urinal once. Had to cause the ladies bathroom was out of order. My husband guarded the door for me. Didn't hurt my complex at all, but made my bladder feel a lot better. When you gotta go, you go wherever.

This is the most intensely nitwitted thing I've read in a while. For shame.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That was AR's post. Winston is all for the prayer.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

<<<<<"I continue to be astonished at the dissonance, within the conservative ranks, exemplified by those who favor that kind of prayer in the public schools.  The same people who insist that “the government needs to stay out of our private lives” and that the “government which governs best is the government which governs least” are nevertheless willing to allow government to design, prescribe and control the religious exercises of captive audiences of public school children in public (i.e. GOVERNMENT-operated) public school classrooms.>>>>>>>

 

Why don't you address this matter straight on?

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What do you want addressed? As I posted, this couldn't have happened unless the majority went along with it, so why would you even try to claim that all the people attending the games were "right wing" religious nuts so to speak? Face it, there are as many religious nuts on the left as there are on the right.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

This is the most intensely nitwitted thing I've read in a while. For shame.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That was AR's post. Winston is all for the prayer.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

<<<<<"I continue to be astonished at the dissonance, within the conservative ranks, exemplified by those who favor that kind of prayer in the public schools.  The same people who insist that “the government needs to stay out of our private lives” and that the “government which governs best is the government which governs least” are nevertheless willing to allow government to design, prescribe and control the religious exercises of captive audiences of public school children in public (i.e. GOVERNMENT-operated) public school classrooms.>>>>>>>

 

Why don't you address this matter straight on?

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What do you want addressed? As I posted, this couldn't have happened unless the majority went along with it, so why would you even try to claim that all the people attending the games were "right wing" religious nuts so to speak? Face it, there are as many religious nuts on the left as there are on the right.

*****

I never claimed that all the people attending the games were conservartives.  If you disagree, then please show me where I did that.

 

You theocrats just never seem to get it.  It is is irrelevant, as a constitutional matter, whether the majority wants it or not.  The Constitution, and most especially the First Amendment, protects the rights of minorities, and it prohibits the imposition of majority religious views, doctrines and practices upon minorities by instrumentalities of civil government! Yes, are were likely some "liberals" at the football games in Decatur and elsewhere in Alabama, and yes, they "went along with it" in the sense that they did not object to the particular prayers being said, but that does no mean that they all endorsed the practice of praying government-sanctioned sectarian prayers in a public venue.  As a practical matter, a "liberal", atheist, or anyone else posing objection to such a practice bears the very substantial risk that he and his family will become the objects of community vilification and even violence.  Thus, as a practical matter, it is rare for "liberals"  within a community to protest such unconstitutional practices.

 

I place "liberal" in quotes because I do not regard the insistence of citizens that the constitution be respected as a liberal position.  If anything, it is conservative in the sense that it stands in defense of the constitution, something that good, patriotic Americans should always do.

 

Finally, I do not characterize any of those attending the games as right wing religious nuts.  I simply disagree with those among the attendees and anyone else  who supports the notion that civil government has the right to direct religious activities in the public schools.   I stand with the U.S. Supreme Court in that matter.  You apparently do not

I continue to be astonished at the dissonance, within the conservative ranks, exemplified by those who favor that kind of prayer in the public schools.  The same people who insist that “the government needs to stay out of our private lives” and that the “government which governs best is the government which governs least” are nevertheless willing to allow government to design, prescribe and control the religious exercises of captive audiences of public school children in public (i.e. GOVERNMENT-operated) public school classrooms.

 

Go figure!

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Finally, I do not characterize any of those attending the games as right wing religious nuts.  I simply disagree with those among the attendees and anyone else  who supports the notion that civil government has the right to direct religious activities in the public schools.   I stand with the U.S. Supreme Court in that matter.  You apparently do not

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You kinda contradicted yourself bettern-nun. Now how do you figure I don't "stand" with the court? You're pulling a bill, trying to slant it to your way of thinking without letting the truth get in the way.

****

 

No contradiction from me, Bestworking. If you see one, then kindly point it out.Vague and unexplicated accusations do not compute with me.  Where is the "contradiction"??

 

And how does one "kinda" contradict oneself?  Isn't "kinda contradicted" sort of like "kind of pregnant"?

Read your own posts bettern-nun. What's "vague" about posting your own words back to you? You absolutely blame the conservatives, then you want to crawfish when that's pointed out to you. DA, it's not about the majority, it's about bettern-nun wanting to make it seem that the majority here is the religious right. Bettern-nun,  "kinda contradicted yourself" is an expression but I'll clear it up-you contradicted yourself.

If Congress passed legislation mandating all high schools to pray before football games, that would be unconstitutional.

 

If a community chooses to express their religious beliefs publicly, it's not unconstitutional.

 

I've been to high school games where they allow a local pastor or chaplain a few moments to say a brief prayer. No one is forced to pray, no one is condemned for not praying. It simply happens and it's over.

 

I believe very strongly in freedom of expression. Silencing the majority simply because a handful of people disagree is wrong.

 

It doesn't matter if it was a Muslim prayer, Jewish prayer, Hindu prayer, Wiccan prayer, or whatever. Preventing freedom of expression simply because one or two people may be uncomfortable for a moment is wrong.

It doesn't matter if it was a Muslim prayer, Jewish prayer, Hindu prayer, Wiccan prayer, or whatever. Preventing freedom of expression simply because one or two people may be uncomfortable for a moment is wrong.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm sure there'd be no opposition to any of the prayers you listed. LOL!!

Originally Posted by NashBama:
...I believe very strongly in freedom of expression. Silencing the majority simply because a handful of people disagree is wrong...

NB,

What you believe very strongly is irrelevant to law. There's a reason why the school didn't fight this. They and their attorneys know very well that they're in violation of established law and they'd lose the case and a lot of tax-payer money that ought to be used to actually educate students. If you actually think your very strong personal beliefs mean anything vs. the US Constitution, please file a lawsuit based on your beliefs and interpretations and let us know, so we can follow it.

 

There is a lot of leeway and protection for personal expression (moment of silence is appropriate) but don't confuse that with a government agency cramming any one specific religion down the throats of a totally captive audience. That is wrong and also happens to be against the law.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Read your own posts bettern-nun. What's "vague" about posting your own words back to you? You absolutely blame the conservatives, then you want to crawfish when that's pointed out to you. DA, it's not about the majority, it's about bettern-nun wanting to make it seem that the majority here is the religious right. Bettern-nun,  "kinda contradicted yourself" is an expression but I'll clear it up-you contradicted yourself.

****

 

Piffle! You need to deal with reality.  It IS the conservatives who continue to agitate for the 
restoration of government controlled prayer in the public schools.  It IS the conservatives who contend that the Supreme Court decisions concerning this aspect of the First Amendment are wrong. The nationally-prominent persons, such as Roy Moore and David Barton, who agitate for such practices as school prayer and the singular posting of the 10 Commandments in public, government-controlled venues are conservatives.  To imply otherwise is just plain silly!

 

Yes, I absolutely blame conservatives for taking these unconstitutional positions, because it IS they who take those positions! The question of how many liberals are in the bleachers at high school football games in Decatur, Alabama has nothing to do with this matter.

At least you finally admitted what you were doing. You're the one that needs to deal. Look at the polls bettern-nun, see how the democrats and republicans are in agreement about prayer in schools. Until you can get your religious nuts in order you have no right to talk about the right. As I keep posting, when it comes to religion you all stick together.  Arab isn't Decatur btw.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by NashBama:
...I believe very strongly in freedom of expression. Silencing the majority simply because a handful of people disagree is wrong...

NB,

What you believe very strongly is irrelevant to law. There's a reason why the school didn't fight this. They and their attorneys know very well that they're in violation of established law and they'd lose the case and a lot of tax-payer money that ought to be used to actually educate students. If you actually think your very strong personal beliefs mean anything vs. the US Constitution, please file a lawsuit based on your beliefs and interpretations and let us know, so we can follow it.

 

There is a lot of leeway and protection for personal expression (moment of silence is appropriate) but don't confuse that with a government agency cramming any one specific religion down the throats of a totally captive audience. That is wrong and also happens to be against the law.

*****

Robustus, you are right on, but do not expect to convert to your view those whose positions are rooted not in law or logic, but in their emotions!

 

Support student-led school prayer
Republicans80%
Democrats59%
Independents61%

 

This is from a abc news poll. For some reason I can't get the link to post. You can google it.

 

Here is another one similar but from gallup:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181...-public-schools.aspx

 

 

Please tell me whether you favor or oppose a constitutional amendment to allow voluntary prayer in public schools.

 

Favor

Oppose

 

%

%

Overall

76

23

Church attendance

  

Weekly

88

11

Nearly weekly/Monthly

82

17

Seldom/Never

63

35

Religious affiliation

  

Protestants

83

17

Catholics

75

21

Non-Christians

44

55

Party

  

Republicans

88

12

Independents

72

25

Democrats

67

32

 

Although it really does not matter what political party or what the majority of Americans think. It is unconstitutional and that is where the debate starts and stops.

DA, I posted it before, I don't oppose the democratic party for their religious beliefs, I just ask that they acknowledge their own religious nutjobs. This is an example of throwing rocks when you live in a glass house, and why when people ask how an atheist can be a republican, I point this out.

Best it would take a constitutional amendment for it to be legal. What the schools are doing right now is not.  88% of Republicans would change the constitution to make it so. Verses 67% Democrats. I agree it is still a majority on both sides but there is more than a 20% difference between the 2.  My only problem with what your saying is that they are not as close you seem to think when it comes to these issues.

 

In the part of the poll you are referring to the question was between 2 choices. Spoken or moment of silence. That is a different situation. What that poll shows is that the majority of Americans would prefer a moment of silence if faced with those 2 options. But as I said spoken prayer is not constitutional in the first place so we have to go back to the first part of the polls and see that 88% of Republicans would make an amendment vs 67% of Democrats.

 

So based on those numbers the Republicans are quite a bit more inclined to force religion on ALL Americans. Thankfully as of today we have the Constitution on our side when it comes to this issue. I am not in favor of giving a party control that would change that.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by NashBama:
...I believe very strongly in freedom of expression. Silencing the majority simply because a handful of people disagree is wrong...

NB,

What you believe very strongly is irrelevant to law. There's a reason why the school didn't fight this. They and their attorneys know very well that they're in violation of established law and they'd lose the case and a lot of tax-payer money that ought to be used to actually educate students. If you actually think your very strong personal beliefs mean anything vs. the US Constitution, please file a lawsuit based on your beliefs and interpretations and let us know, so we can follow it.

 

There is a lot of leeway and protection for personal expression (moment of silence is appropriate) but don't confuse that with a government agency cramming any one specific religion down the throats of a totally captive audience. That is wrong and also happens to be against the law.

A school allowing someone to lead a voluntary prayer is not unconstitutional. No one is being forced to adhere to a religion.

 

The school didn't fight it because they don't have the funds to do so, you're right about that. However, their decision is based on money not on whether they did something illegal. They did nothing illegal.

 

Sure, there is the whole "separation of church and state" deal which is not in the constitution at all. It has taken precedence because the Supreme Court used it in a ruling.

 

The Supreme Court also once ruled that it was constitutional for Dred Scott to be considered another man's legal property. So they're not always right.

The school didn't fight it because they don't have the funds to do so, you're right about that. However, their decision is based on money not on whether they did something illegal. They did nothing illegal.

 

======================================================================

 

If they did nothing illegal what would there be to fight?

Originally Posted by NashBama:
...The school didn't fight it because they don't have the funds to do so, you're right about that. However, their decision is based on money not on whether they did something illegal. They did nothing illegal...

 

Please listen to Albertville High's Principal McAbee describe why he also canceled pre-game prayers through their the PA to a captive audience:

http://www.whnt.com/videobeta/...Ends-Pre-Game-Prayer

 

For the lazy among you, he says, "We know it's illegal" "You don't fight something you know you can't win"

 

Other local schools will soon stop their pre-game prayers too and they'll do so because their lawyers know they've been in violation of the law for years in this respect, but got away with it until now.

 

NB, like I told you, your belief about the law is irrelevant. If you still feel strongly about your legal claims please cite the case law to back it up, then get out there and sue the pants off the FFRF.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

The school didn't fight it because they don't have the funds to do so, you're right about that. However, their decision is based on money not on whether they did something illegal. They did nothing illegal.

 

======================================================================

 

If they did nothing illegal what would there be to fight?

A lawsuit doesn't mean they did anything illegal. It means they are accused of doing something illegal. Very different.

 

The school was forced to stop their tradition because a group with more money, that does not live in the community, bullied them into stopping. It has nothing to do with rights or what is legal. It's about silencing religion and free expression.

 

I'm not offended by other religions or when someone says they are an atheist. Doesn't bother me in the least. Yet, one of the most vile things a group of students and parents can do is pray with a single atheist present.

Originally Posted by NashBama:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

The school didn't fight it because they don't have the funds to do so, you're right about that. However, their decision is based on money not on whether they did something illegal. They did nothing illegal.

 

======================================================================

 

If they did nothing illegal what would there be to fight?

A lawsuit doesn't mean they did anything illegal. It means they are accused of doing something illegal. Very different.

 

The school was forced to stop their tradition because a group with more money, that does not live in the community, bullied them into stopping. It has nothing to do with rights or what is legal. It's about silencing religion and free expression.

 

I'm not offended by other religions or when someone says they are an atheist. Doesn't bother me in the least. Yet, one of the most vile things a group of students and parents can do is pray with a single atheist present.

****

You say, "Yet, one of the most vile things a group of students and parents can do is pray with a single atheist present."  Well, then, to be certain not to participate in such a "vile" exercise, would it not be best NOT to have ANY public prayers where hundreds, or even thousands, of persons are present and where it is highly probable that at least one of them is an atheist?  Should those believing  parents and students at football games at Arab, Alabama  canvass the crowd to be sure there is not an atheist there, lest their pre-game prayer become some kind of abomination?

Everyday I learn something new and now because of Best and Semi, my ignorance relating to the female urinal skills has been cured, I'll just write that up that any factual knowledge is good knowledge.

Anyway, I once again have seen someone elses ignorance about separation of Church & State, it's a well known fact that the intent of separation of Church and State is to keep the State out of Church affairs and not to keep the Church out of State affairs but anyway, the law is the law and fair is fair. I would be highly offended if I heard of a muslim prayer being offered over the PA at a game anywhere in the USA, I would be very unhappy at the thought of these weirdo wiccans leading a public prayer too or for any type of non Christitan devotion to be imposed. I do like that a Christian prayer is generally offered but I would rather it not be offered than to have to share the mic with imbeciles and at the moment I cannot think of a just law that could be written to limit pre game prayer to only a truly Christian prayer.

 It is my hope that other valley schools who have a pre game prayer will be left alone but if they are told to stop or some offbrand religion tries to get their crap in with our prayers then I hope that their community will react the same way that the Arab community reacted to being told that there will be no pre game prayer (see link below).

 

http://www.waaytv.com/news/loc...GSEGmOR3c7V1QKA.cspx

 

Its illegal NB. The SCOTUS has ruled on this issue a few times now and keep coming back with the same answer. Also it is usually NOT atheist that sue the schools for doing this. I believe they are just good American citizens that don't want to see what we stand for and our democracy destroyed. So they stand up for what is right, even if it means ****ing the Christians off.

 

Read this from a CNN article in 2000.

 

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Monday that prayer does not belong in public schools, even if students initiate and lead the prayers.

The court ruled 6-3 in a Texas case that public schools cannot allow student-led prayer before high school football games, a decision that reinforces the wall between church and state erected by the First Amendment.

The ruling came in Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe, a case involving the Sante Fe Independent School District in Galveston, Texas, which allowed student-initiated and student-led prayer to be broadcast over the public address system before high school football games.

 
 

The central question was whether allowing prayer violates the First Amendment's establishment clause, which states that Congress "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.""We recognize the important role that public worship plays in many communities, as well as the sincere desire to include public prayer as a part of various occasions so as to mark those occasions' significance," Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the majority."But such religious activity in public schools, as elsewhere, must comport with the First Amendment," he added.

Two students and their mothers filed suit in 1995 and were joined by the American Civil Liberties Union. The students, one Mormon and one Catholic, and their mothers were not named in court papers.

 

continue reading....

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2000-0...lic-prayer?_s=PM:LAW

 

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Do you nitwits seriously believe that God takes sides ih high school sporting events?

Judging from the records at Shoals Christian, Mars Hill, and Covenent Christian I would think not
I don't think that anyone implied that he does and I have never heard a prayer at a game that asks God to favor one side over the other.

 

It's my understanding that some Shoals area high schools mysteriously offered no prayer before the games yesterday even though it had been a tradition of theirs. Coincidence?? I think not.

 

It's against the law NB. Denying it is utterly fruitless. Please educate yourself. And be glad that the law still allows for a moment of silence.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

It's my understanding that some Shoals area high schools mysteriously offered no prayer before the games yesterday even though it had been a tradition of theirs. Coincidence?? I think not.

 

It's against the law NB. Denying it is utterly fruitless. Please educate yourself. And be glad that the law still allows for a moment of silence.


I was only at one game and they had prayer as usual.

 

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