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this one is mainly for folks like GBRK who base some of their dismissal of evolution on the apparent fact that, "if evolution were true, then where are all the previous life forms?" many like him can';t seem to wrap their heads around the fact that ALL previous and current life forms are transitional.  all life (with a few exceptions - namely some bacteria) is in a constant state of change.  we cannot see this change in our puny little lifetimes. this change can only be witnessed over the span of unimaginable periods of time.  this little picture is an example of how life changes over time without us being able to see it.

 

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“Documented” Transitional Forms?

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

 

The cover of the March 1-7, 2008 issue of New Scientist pictures an illustrator’s attempt at drawing a half fish, half reptilian creature. Above the illustration is the title: “Amazing Missing Links: Creatures that Reveal the Real Power of Evolution.” Allegedly, evolutionists “have abundant evidence for how all the major groups of animals are related, much of it in the form of excellent transitional fossils” (Prothero, 2008, 197[2645]:35). After his introductory comments, the author, Donald Prothero, listed several alleged transitional fossils, which supposedly “are conclusive proof that evolution has occurred, and is still occurring” (p. 41). Included in this list were a variety of animals—from velvet worms to dinosaurs, and giraffes to manatees. Readers, however, have to go no further than Prothero’s introduction to see the inaccuracy of his assertions.

Prothero introduced his list of transitional forms, that supposedly prove evolution, with two examples that science dealt a crushing blow to long ago. Prothero wrote: “Darwin’s 1859 prediction that transitional forms would be found was quickly confirmed. In 1861 the first specimen of Archaeopteryx—a classic transitional form between dinosaurs and birds—was discovered, and in the 1870s the iconic sequence of fossil horses was documented” (p. 35, emp. added). Of the alleged “numerous fossils and fossil sequences showing evolutionary change,” Prothero chose to begin his article with Archaeopteryx and the “sequence of horse fossils,” both of which are supposedly “documented” proof of evolution. In truth, Archaeopteryx and the horse family tree do not even come close to confirming evolution.

Regarding horse evolution, the fossil record simply does not bear out what New Scientist writer Prothero claimed. In fact, due to the severe lack of fossil evidence linking the various horse “family members” together, even prominent evolutionists have abandoned the “horse evolution” argument. Prothero claimed that as far back as “the 1870s the iconic sequence of fossil horses was documented” (p. 35). Since that time, however, evolutionists such as Dr. George ***lord Simpson have admitted, “The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature” (Simpson, 1953, p. 125, emp. added). In a 2000 article that appeared in the journal Natural History, Dr. Stephen Jay Gould criticized science textbooks’ use of misinformation surrounding the evolution of horses. He wrote:

Once ensconced in textbooks, misinformation becomes cocooned and effectively permanent, because, as stated above, textbooks copy from previous texts. (I have written two essays on this lamentable practice: one on the amusingly perennial description of the eohippus, or “dawn horse,” as the size of a fox terrier, even though most authors, including yours truly, have no idea of the dimensions or appearance of this breed...) [2000, 109[2]:45, emp. added].

In light of such statements by renowned evolutionists, one wonders how Prothero can be so confident that the evolution of horses was documented by fossils as far back as the 1870s. Is Prothero’s article just another example of how “misinformation becomes cocooned and effectively permanent” in many evolutionary writings?

And what about Archaeopteryx? Is it a “confirmed” transitional form, as Prothero asserted? Simply because Archaeopteryx has teeth in its beak and claws on its wings, does not prove that it was the transitional form between reptiles and birds. Consider that some modern birds have claws on their wings, and yet no one thinks of them as being missing links. The African bird known as touraco has claws on its wings, as does the hoatzin of South America when it is young. Both of these birds use their fully functional claws to grasp branches and climb trees. If you have ever seen an ostrich close up, you might have noticed that it, too, has claws on each wing and can use them if attacked. Obviously, simply because a bird in the fossil record is discovered with claws on its wings does not mean that it is a transitional fossil.

In 1993, Science News reported that an odd fossil bird had been unearthed in Mongolia. It supposedly is millions of years younger than Archaeopteryx and, interestingly, had teeth in its beak (Monasterky, 1993, 143:245). As with the claws on the wings of Archaeopteryx, evolutionists cannot prove that the presence of teeth make the animal something more than a bird. What’s more, consider that while most reptiles have teeth, turtles do not. And, some fish and amphibians have teeth, while other fish and amphibians have no teeth. How can evolutionists be so sure that Archaeopteryx’s teeth make it a dinosaur-bird link? Such an assertion is based on unprovable assumptions.

Archaeopteryx also had fully formed feathers, just like living birds. Fossils of Archaeopteryx leave no hint of the animal being a half-scaly/half-feathered creature. It was not in some kind of in-between stage. Furthermore, “[e]xperts don’t know what Archaeopteryx’s closest [alleged—EL] dinosaur ancestor looked like—fossils haven’t yet been found” (“Fossil Evidence,” 2007), i.e., evolutionists have been entirely unsuccessful in finding any actual transitional forms between dinosaurs and birds.

Finally, what makes the suggestion that Archaeopteryx was the missing link between reptiles and birds even more unbelievable is that “[a]nother bird fossil found in the desert of west Texas in 1983, Protoavis, is dated even earlier, 75 million years before Archaeopteryx” (DeYoung, 2000, p. 37, emp. added). Although some paleontologists have questions about the fossil remains of Protoavis (birds, after all, were not supposed to be around with the “earliest dinosaurs&rdquo, Dr. Chatterjee of Texas Tech University “has pointed out, the skull of Protoavis has 23 features that are fundamentally bird-like, as are the forelimbs, the shoulders, and the hip girdle” (Harrub and Thompson, 2001). In 1991, Science magazine ran a story titled, “Early Bird Threatens Archaeopteryx’s Perch,” wherein Alan Anderson wrote: “His [Chaterjee’s—EL] reconstruction also shows a flexible neck, large brain, binocular vision, and, crucially, portals running from the rear of the skull to the eye socket—a feature seen in modern birds but not dinosaurs” (253:35).

The fact is, the fossil record does not, in any way, demonstrate that dinosaurs evolved into birds or that horses evolved from little dog-like creatures. Ironically, although Prothero, writing for New Scientist, wrote that a “favourite lie” of creationists is ‘there are no transitional fossils’” (2008, 197[2645]:35), evolutionist Mark Ridley wrote an article for the same journal 27 years earlier and confessed that “no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation...” (1981, 90:832, emp. added).

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

this one is mainly for folks like GBRK who base some of their dismissal of evolution on the apparent fact that, "if evolution were true, then where are all the previous life forms?" many like him can';t seem to wrap their heads around the fact that ALL previous and current life forms are transitional.  all life (with a few exceptions - namely some bacteria) is in a constant state of change.  we cannot see this change in our puny little lifetimes. this change can only be witnessed over the span of unimaginable periods of time.  this little picture is an example of how life changes over time without us being able to see it.

 

 

 

 

Man! This hurts my eyes (after a Sat. nite!)

Maybe if I burn one it will be readable...and pretty.

Hi Uno,

 

Two comments.  First, all you have emphasized is that God created us with amazing eyes; something evolution could never have done.

 

Second, with all that transitioning -- where are the inter-species fossils?   Yep!  Still missing; that elusive old "Missing Link"!

 

Good try,  Billy Bob, but -- no cigar!!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

This won't go away:

 "evolutionist Mark Ridley wrote an article for the same journal 27 years earlier and confessed that “no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation...” (1981, 90:832, emp. added).

 
 

Since the post was directed at me, among some others, specifically I suppose I should generate a reply.  I am not challenging that various transitions can occur for that's evident in life.  Ice transitions into water and transitions into steam or vapor but that doesn't prove evolution as a source of life's source.  Evolution, if correct and valid, would be just as valid, and occurring, today just as it is said to have occurred eons ago.  It (evolution) should be just as visible as your transitional change from red to blue.  

 

Using your example you have red, you have blue, you have each transitional hue or state between for you to observe.  Today we have the same elements, that was said to make up the primordial soup, existing on this Earth and you have somewhere environmental conditions that is conducive to this so called Evolution yet Evolutionist can only point to the beginning (where we came from) and the end (where we got to) and somehow all the intermediate transitional states have disappeared.   Not only is there missing fossil evidence but evidence can't be found living, existing, walking around today for us to observe and analyze.  

 

Some say man came (evolved) from a certain kind of Monkey and that Monkey still exist and man certainly exist yet creatures in the transitional states are not there or not observable.  10% monkey and 90% man or transcending from tree dwellers to land dwellers.  Take other species even and the transitional incremental states are not there.  How can any rational thinking mind conceive that evolution was correct and the path which all life got here?  

 

The theory of evolution is just that ... a theory which is clung to by people who can't imagine that a deity/God could exist and could have caused life and creation.  Even some believers, who believe in God Created, believe He used Evolution as the process of life.  I cannot accept that Evolution was the vehicle by which all life got here whether by Evolution alone or by God's Creation.  What you are putting your faith in is Darwin and his theory of life's beginnings and source.  If you take it from a purely scientific point of view then somewhere along the chain of evolution life had to evolve or come from non-life and then all species, of life, stem from there.  If that was factual then EACH transitional stage and state should still be evolving and transcending now as it was then yet all Evolutionist can point to is a source and a completed species yet how to get from one state to the other is to be accepted on faith with no evidential evidence past or presence.  

 

Sorry but it's more black and white than red and blue. 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Since the post was directed at me, among some others, specifically I suppose I should generate a reply.  I am not challenging that various transitions can occur for that's evident in life.  Ice transitions into water and transitions into steam or vapor but that doesn't prove evolution as a source of life's source.  Evolution, if correct and valid, would be just as valid, and occurring, today just as it is said to have occurred eons ago.  It (evolution) should be just as visible as your transitional change from red to blue.  

 

Using your example you have red, you have blue, you have each transitional hue or state between for you to observe.  Today we have the same elements, that was said to make up the primordial soup, existing on this Earth and you have somewhere environmental conditions that is conducive to this so called Evolution yet Evolutionist can only point to the beginning (where we came from) and the end (where we got to) and somehow all the intermediate transitional states have disappeared.   Not only is there missing fossil evidence but evidence can't be found living, existing, walking around today for us to observe and analyze.  

 

Some say man came (evolved) from a certain kind of Monkey and that Monkey still exist and man certainly exist yet creatures in the transitional states are not there or not observable.  10% monkey and 90% man or transcending from tree dwellers to land dwellers.  Take other species even and the transitional incremental states are not there.  How can any rational thinking mind conceive that evolution was correct and the path which all life got here?  

 

The theory of evolution is just that ... a theory which is clung to by people who can't imagine that a deity/God could exist and could have caused life and creation.  Even some believers, who believe in God Created, believe He used Evolution as the process of life.  I cannot accept that Evolution was the vehicle by which all life got here whether by Evolution alone or by God's Creation.  What you are putting your faith in is Darwin and his theory of life's beginnings and source.  If you take it from a purely scientific point of view then somewhere along the chain of evolution life had to evolve or come from non-life and then all species, of life, stem from there.  If that was factual then EACH transitional stage and state should still be evolving and transcending now as it was then yet all Evolutionist can point to is a source and a completed species yet how to get from one state to the other is to be accepted on faith with no evidential evidence past or presence.  

 

Sorry but it's more black and white than red and blue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You do know, don't  you...they're just going to tell you to look in a mirror...

Originally Posted by Jennifer:

One would think not if this forum was taken as the sample.   Certain things can evolve and evolution is a term that can be applied in certain conditions as well as macro and micro evolution but as a vehicle by which life, life forms, species got here and became what they are my answer and my belief is absolutely impossible and improbable based simply on observation of what is available today.  What does need to evolve is peoples curiosity as to what they have been told and sold.  It's amazing to me how many place so much faith on Evolution yet are so detrimental toward people who express belief that life and creation sprang from a much greater intelligence than that which is human. 

 

If someone wishes to put their belief in evolution as how they got here and how all life got here then have at it but I cannot conceive of any thinking, logical, person looking around at all diverse life and life forms and concluding that all came from one cell and overtime developed into all the diverse forms of life we have all while leaving no transitional states behind that incontrovertibly links all diverse species backwards to one.  Also forget leaving behind fossil or past evidence we should still be seeing transitional creatures and beings here now living among us.  That is my reason for denying evolution as the vehicle by which we all got here. 

 

Frankly the same rationale that would lead one to accept evolution would lead the same to accept that the world is flat. 


I repeat ... If someone wishes to accept evolution and believe in that as the vehicle that all life sprang from that is their right but what amazes me is how they seem so threatened by those that don't believe such.  I've stated the reasons I cannot accept evolution as that vehicle without condemning another person yet it seems some feel like they have been attacked.

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

gif

 

Heh.

 

One problem with the cartoon RP,   I have never made an argument against evolution based upon Religion, Christianity, my belief in God or anything close.  My arguments, historically and always been based upon what deficiencies there are in the theory of Evolution and based upon clearly observable absences of evidential proof, past and present. 

 

At least your cartoon is consistent with how most evolutionist, scientist, and non-believers view Christians or people who disagree with them.

 

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

If someone wishes to put their belief in evolution as how they got here and how all life got here then have at it 

If someone wishes to accept evolution and believe in that as the vehicle that all life sprang from that is their right but what amazes me is how they seem so threatened by those that don't believe such. 

As I've said before, I can't quite wrap my mind around the idea that we came to be here from a Bang or that we came from Monkeys. I also question the idea that man came to be from a mound of dirt & woman from a rib of that man. And I mean no disrespect to any of you that believe either of those.

 

I was raised in church & accepted the Bible at face value for many, many years. After years of frustration with prayers going unanswered, people that wear the hat only when necessary or when trying to impress someone, I gave up taking the Bible at face value & started researching. I wanted, & still do, some proof, something that would click. I've read what the Atheist say & what they've said here & some of those things make sense. But it's still out of reach for me, as is the Bible.

 

I have many, many questions but no answers that are forthcoming. I was saved many years ago, when I did believe. Bill Gray tells me I'm going to Hell but people like him, with his judgmental attitude & lack of love/compassion is no more to me than a spec of dust. I've met his kind through the years & he is what turns a lot of people away from Christianity. But if God does exist, he will someday deal with the Bill Grays of this world.

 

You may be offended by the Atheist & what they believe & speak on this forum but people like Bill do much more damage to Christianity than the Atheist ever have. You should be offended by the garbage that Bill throws out daily on this forum.

Semi,

 

I can very much appreciate the remarks that you have made.  Each person must confirm and reconcile, within their own mind as what is real and true.  As for where we all (and life) originated and came from or how we came will most likely will never be explained or understood by any human mind therefore it's a matter of faith that we place our belief in one method or another without having to reconcile the absolute method or mechanics by which it happened. 

 

Regarding your personal faith or beliefs whether in God, nature, or atheism again that is a very personal and intimate think with anyone.  It is my belief that Christ came not condemning people, in judgment, but rather meeting their needs and answering their questions, ask of Him. 

 

It is also my personal belief that God does communicate with humans (man/woman) directly and personally without the requirement that you are holding the Bible or talking to a preacher.  While I do believe that God's Spirit works through the Bible and uses various people to work through I believe His ultimate communication and relation with persons is up close and very personal.  Therefore IF God exist (And I fully believe and attest He does) then He (God) will effect and communicate with that person in such a way that it cannot be misunderstood to be anything but God that is communicating with the person.  I also don't believe that God speaks to persons in an audible voice but I am not one to limit God nor would I attempt to.  I do though believe God chooses to communicate with those who seek Him internally. 

 

I believe being human means we are created a physical body (by our parents)  and given a created (by God) internal spirit dwelling within each human body.  It is my belief and faith that God chooses to communicate Spirit to spirit.  His Holy Spirit with your (each) human inner spirit and request in unspoken, but undeniable, words, feelings, thoughts, that He desires a personal intimate relationship with you (whoever honestly seeks Him).  If/When this happens the human has, at that moment, the only Undeniable Proof of God and that evidence or proof is God's Holy Spirit working inside the human's body with their inner spirit. 

 

When I say God or God's Holy Spirit or Christ I am meaning the same entity or deity although we look at them as three different words.  Christ is our path to perfection in God's eyes having taken our sins and wrongdoings or our imperfection upon Himself.  God therefore can not only approach us directly and intimately but God's Holy Spirit can actually co-dwell within our bodies with our inner spirits.  It is only by Christ perfect sacrifice that allows this to occur and happen.  Christ makes that difference.  Therefore when God relates or communicates with us/humans today He does so because and through Christ Sacrifice and it is Christ Blood that we put our faith in to cover our sins and imperfections.  So ... IF God exist, as I assert He does, then it is God that will reveal Himself unto you and not some man/woman convince you that God exist in a mental way or capacity.  The Proof will come from God Himself.    I say God Himself but God is Spirit and has no sex but out of convenience and tradition that  people refer to God in the masculine.

 

I hope you do find your answers/peace that you are looking for one day for each person should not only be confident in what they accept to believe but know why they believe as they do.  As for judgment that is no human's responsibility with respect to the afterlife.  Remember that Christ did not Judge those who placed Him on the Cross before or after so no Christian has that responsibility to do either. 

Originally Posted by buffalo:

 

Yes evolution is still occurring as in adaptation but the Darwin evolution from a common ancestor has been proven bunk years ago. Why folk keep insisting man evolved from some animal is a curious thing since the theory is evidence bare.

 

....and jimi, I'm not asking for your argument to the contrari.

 

There is a great deal of evidence. No need to argue. No viable argument against evolutionary biology is possible. You can dispute scientific fact.

Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

gif

 

Heh.

 

My arguments, historically and always been based upon what deficiencies there are in the theory of Evolution and based upon clearly observable absences of evidential proof, past and present. 

Your "arguments" show a profound ignorance of science on your part. Evolution is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Anyone who say differently is either, ignorant, lying, or confused. Evolution is fact. Get over it. Denying this fact only makes you look foolish.

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Semi,

 

I can very much appreciate the remarks that you have made.  Each person must confirm and reconcile, within their own mind as what is real and true.  As for where we all (and life) originated and came from or how we came will most likely will never be explained or understood by any human mind therefore it's a matter of faith that we place our belief in one method or another without having to reconcile the absolute method or mechanics by which it happened. 

 

Regarding your personal faith or beliefs whether in God, nature, or atheism again that is a very personal and intimate think with anyone.  It is my belief that Christ came not condemning people, in judgment, but rather meeting their needs and answering their questions, ask of Him. 

 

It is also my personal belief that God does communicate with humans (man/woman) directly and personally without the requirement that you are holding the Bible or talking to a preacher.  While I do believe that God's Spirit works through the Bible and uses various people to work through I believe His ultimate communication and relation with persons is up close and very personal.  Therefore IF God exist (And I fully believe and attest He does) then He (God) will effect and communicate with that person in such a way that it cannot be misunderstood to be anything but God that is communicating with the person.  I also don't believe that God speaks to persons in an audible voice but I am not one to limit God nor would I attempt to.  I do though believe God chooses to communicate with those who seek Him internally. 

 

I believe being human means we are created a physical body (by our parents)  and given a created (by God) internal spirit dwelling within each human body.  It is my belief and faith that God chooses to communicate Spirit to spirit.  His Holy Spirit with your (each) human inner spirit and request in unspoken, but undeniable, words, feelings, thoughts, that He desires a personal intimate relationship with you (whoever honestly seeks Him).  If/When this happens the human has, at that moment, the only Undeniable Proof of God and that evidence or proof is God's Holy Spirit working inside the human's body with their inner spirit. 

 

When I say God or God's Holy Spirit or Christ I am meaning the same entity or deity although we look at them as three different words.  Christ is our path to perfection in God's eyes having taken our sins and wrongdoings or our imperfection upon Himself.  God therefore can not only approach us directly and intimately but God's Holy Spirit can actually co-dwell within our bodies with our inner spirits.  It is only by Christ perfect sacrifice that allows this to occur and happen.  Christ makes that difference.  Therefore when God relates or communicates with us/humans today He does so because and through Christ Sacrifice and it is Christ Blood that we put our faith in to cover our sins and imperfections.  So ... IF God exist, as I assert He does, then it is God that will reveal Himself unto you and not some man/woman convince you that God exist in a mental way or capacity.  The Proof will come from God Himself.    I say God Himself but God is Spirit and has no sex but out of convenience and tradition that  people refer to God in the masculine.

 

I hope you do find your answers/peace that you are looking for one day for each person should not only be confident in what they accept to believe but know why they believe as they do.  As for judgment that is no human's responsibility with respect to the afterlife.  Remember that Christ did not Judge those who placed Him on the Cross before or after so no Christian has that responsibility to do either. 

If you believe any of this, you are just stupid. Sorry, but that is the only rational conclusion.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Semi,

 

I can very much appreciate the remarks that you have made.  Each person must confirm and reconcile, within their own mind as what is real and true.  As for where we all (and life) originated and came from or how we came will most likely will never be explained or understood by any human mind therefore it's a matter of faith that we place our belief in one method or another without having to reconcile the absolute method or mechanics by which it happened. 

 

Regarding your personal faith or beliefs whether in God, nature, or atheism again that is a very personal and intimate think with anyone.  It is my belief that Christ came not condemning people, in judgment, but rather meeting their needs and answering their questions, ask of Him. 

 

It is also my personal belief that God does communicate with humans (man/woman) directly and personally without the requirement that you are holding the Bible or talking to a preacher.  While I do believe that God's Spirit works through the Bible and uses various people to work through I believe His ultimate communication and relation with persons is up close and very personal.  Therefore IF God exist (And I fully believe and attest He does) then He (God) will effect and communicate with that person in such a way that it cannot be misunderstood to be anything but God that is communicating with the person.  I also don't believe that God speaks to persons in an audible voice but I am not one to limit God nor would I attempt to.  I do though believe God chooses to communicate with those who seek Him internally. 

 

I believe being human means we are created a physical body (by our parents)  and given a created (by God) internal spirit dwelling within each human body.  It is my belief and faith that God chooses to communicate Spirit to spirit.  His Holy Spirit with your (each) human inner spirit and request in unspoken, but undeniable, words, feelings, thoughts, that He desires a personal intimate relationship with you (whoever honestly seeks Him).  If/When this happens the human has, at that moment, the only Undeniable Proof of God and that evidence or proof is God's Holy Spirit working inside the human's body with their inner spirit. 

 

When I say God or God's Holy Spirit or Christ I am meaning the same entity or deity although we look at them as three different words.  Christ is our path to perfection in God's eyes having taken our sins and wrongdoings or our imperfection upon Himself.  God therefore can not only approach us directly and intimately but God's Holy Spirit can actually co-dwell within our bodies with our inner spirits.  It is only by Christ perfect sacrifice that allows this to occur and happen.  Christ makes that difference.  Therefore when God relates or communicates with us/humans today He does so because and through Christ Sacrifice and it is Christ Blood that we put our faith in to cover our sins and imperfections.  So ... IF God exist, as I assert He does, then it is God that will reveal Himself unto you and not some man/woman convince you that God exist in a mental way or capacity.  The Proof will come from God Himself.    I say God Himself but God is Spirit and has no sex but out of convenience and tradition that  people refer to God in the masculine.

 

I hope you do find your answers/peace that you are looking for one day for each person should not only be confident in what they accept to believe but know why they believe as they do.  As for judgment that is no human's responsibility with respect to the afterlife.  Remember that Christ did not Judge those who placed Him on the Cross before or after so no Christian has that responsibility to do either. 

If you believe any of this, you are just stupid. Sorry, but that is the only rational conclusion.

 

 

 

 

Wow! TWO sentences! However, using "rational"...and jimi....in the same post is an oxymoron..

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

gif

 

Heh.

 

My arguments, historically and always been based upon what deficiencies there are in the theory of Evolution and based upon clearly observable absences of evidential proof, past and present. 

Your "arguments" show a profound ignorance of science on your part. Evolution is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Anyone who say differently is either, ignorant, lying, or confused. Evolution is fact. Get over it. Denying this fact only makes you look foolish.

 

 

Jimi, tell us what you think is the significance of humans and the orangutan having %98 common genes.

Here’s your chance to be the hero.

 

I usually just dismiss Jimi's remarks for generally they only prove that he is not interested in debate or substance but they originate from a very bitter, biased, and angry source and of the three it's difficult to see which influences most of the replies that he makes.  It's fairly easy to see that Jimi is either not capable of being a Representative for whatever position or belief he has for the greatest substance of any of his replies, on practically any subject, is based upon the attempted degradation of another forum members intelligence or character.  His is not to genuinely contribute to the forums but rather to seek out others with whom he disagrees with or doesn't like account of their personal beliefs or politics and use petty names to attempt to disparage the forum member rather than their argument.  It is very similar to childhood antics on an elementary playground.  Some play the game while others stand in the distance and throw rocks and shout insults.  Forum members can judge for themselves what Jimi is trying to do by his post.

 

It is usually obvious those that are here for constructive reasons whether that be to debate, defend or explain their own beliefs or answer questions from sincere members who seek to clarify their own beliefs or positions.  Others who demonstrate the shallowness of their own intellect and inability to convey, rationally, the reasons for their own beliefs and positions find that their greatest abilities and strengths lie in ridicule and attacks upon other forum members whom they disagree with.  They make very terse and short statements as if they should be the sole accepted authority and source of knowledge all the while demonstrating their own inadequacies in their personal attacks on other forum members.  Their substance is usually painfully lacking their answers are always so general and broad that it only demonstrates no personal thought or conviction rather a blind trust and following of another whom they have championed as some hero worthy of their blind worship and following yet they, themselves cannot even explain why they believe what they believe without tying it to someone else.  They have few if any original thoughts and their basis of belief usually resides in another, other than themselves.

 


Last edited by gbrk

Good point as this also was Science or a great number of Scientist.  Many accept the statements about Global Cooling and Global Warming as undeniable fact therefore it should not be questioned because it's science.  After actual events and evidence conflicts with the current fact then standards or references and data is revised.  Often it's easier to redefine the danger as in the move to Climate Change.

 

It's also interesting, if you believe what they say, that science knows far more about the moon than they do our own planet.  The far depths of the ocean are still vastly unexplored and the center of the earth has areas that are beyond exploration as there is no known ways or equipment to sample there.  Yet there are some who accept without doubts or questions anything that science has to say provided it correlates with their own personal core belief about God or the one overwhelming thing that they are obsessed with in their life.  For some that's politics and others it can be religion and then others could be lunar cycles or some genre of music. We all possess these inner biases .

 

 

One thing I feel pretty sure about WITHOUT any proof to back it up.  We are wrong about more than we are right about.  Sometimes we re-define the rules once proven wrong, sometimes we don't, depends on who you ask.

 

Pluto's a planet right?  Absolutely a planet, until it was proven wrong, and then re-defined.  Now it is absolutely something else, a dwarf planet maybe, Absolutely, I think.  Not sure.  I guess we were all idiots for believing what Science taught us, after all Science taught us it was a Planet, and we believed it.  Funny NOW we are expected to believe anything because we "Googled it".

Remember though that the Flat Earth example can be used by both sides and in both ways.  Creationist will say Evolutionist are like those who believed the Earth was flat because that's all they could see and visualize until their eyes were opened to conflicting information.  They had an inability to view things in a three dimensional way and relied on a two dimensional world.

 

Science is important and valid and essential in our world and lives however Science is irrelevant and invalid when it comes to the Spiritual because by its very nature Science cannot conceive of something it cannot sample, touch, or observe.  There is no credence given to the possibility of a realm apart from the physical.  The closest that Science can come to acknowledging a Spiritual Realm is consideration or theory of a parallel universe through some black hole in space.  Creation doesn't have to involve a Spiritual God but could be aliens or some other Intelligence beyond what man is capable of understanding or comprehending yet Evolution is but a restriction to lock a persons vision and confine the establishment of life and creation to a concise, humanly understandable process that somehow man can find a way to verify.  It therefore seems inconceivable, to them, that someone or something would be beyond their own intelligence or intellect.  Yeah that's a stretch but seems logical to say given the two dimensional thinking required to accept evolution and putting faith in everything springing from the most basic of substances by some unknown accidental process that escapes duplication or reproduction. 

Originally Posted by Jennifer:

And man once thought the earth was flat. Moving forward, making new discoveries, and learning truths isn't a bad thing. Most scientists won't claim that they have the only answer. They have theories based on their research and they present them to others. If another scientist disagrees he does his own research.

Couldn't possibly agree with you more on the flat earth part, making new discoveries, learning truth, etc.  I agree with you 100% there.

 

I do think you are wrong about the "Most Scientists" part but that is just my opinion.  Also, we the people follow what our scientist tell us, we just pick the scientist we CURRENTLY believe, until evidence is overwhelming against that lone stragling, scientist.  If you put all your eggs in one basket, your gonna lose ALL your eggs.

 

Anyway, I respect your opinion, and I am glad you have the right to have one.

GBRK be say, "Using your example you have red, you have blue, you have each transitional hue or state between for you to observe.  Today we have the same elements, that was said to make up the primordial soup, existing on this Earth and you have somewhere environmental conditions that is conducive to this so called Evolution yet Evolutionist can only point to the beginning (where we came from) and the end (where we got to) and somehow all the intermediate transitional states have disappeared.   Not only is there missing fossil evidence but evidence can't be found living, existing, walking around today for us to observe and analyze.  "

GB my friend, you completely missed the point.  

Let's try this:  Are you familiar with language?  It is the perfect metaphor for evolution.  log ago, our ancestors likely used grunts and clicks to convey thoughts.  those grunts and clicks evolved over time into more and more complex languages.  our ancestors got separated for various reasons.  some traveled to asia, some remained in africa.  some traveled to the brittish isles.  some to the steppes of what is now russia.

each of those groups added sounds to their language.  each group eventually EVOLVED their very won language.  no one alive would say that spanish and french are the same "species" of language but they almost certainly originated from a common source long ago.  that common source is a deal language.  it went extinct.  

i wonder how many languages are thought to have existed during the past few hundred thousands years?  probably thousands.  perhaps even millions.  all those predecessors are now dead. gone.  the fossils still remain, however.  our own english language has "DNA" left in it from latin, germanic and crillic languages among many others.  yet it is a new "species" of language.

 

using just common sense, it is easy to imagine that all the languages on earth probably came from one single source a very long time ago.  so it is with evolution.

that's how it works, GBRK.  can you really not see this? 

Originally Posted by buffalo:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

gif

 

Heh.

 

My arguments, historically and always been based upon what deficiencies there are in the theory of Evolution and based upon clearly observable absences of evidential proof, past and present. 

Your "arguments" show a profound ignorance of science on your part. Evolution is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Anyone who say differently is either, ignorant, lying, or confused. Evolution is fact. Get over it. Denying this fact only makes you look foolish.

 

 

Jimi, tell us what you think is the significance of humans and the orangutan having %98 common genes.

Here’s your chance to be the hero.

 

The presence of similar genes can be interpreted by an evolutionist either as a consequence of evolution or by a creationist as simply the employment by God of the building blocks of inheritance in different arrangements.  The simple presence of similar genes does not PROVE either argument.  Moreover, the more we learn about genes the less "similar" seem such supposed "98%" similarities between man and the great apes in any absolute or mathematical sense.  The complex physiological activity of a gene in one organism can vary greatly from its activity in another in terms of biochemical processes and mechanisms energized and controlled by the gene.

 

And upside-down one of the amazing things about common genes; even though they exist in the same environment together and evolve from in it ,even heritable trait’s the same gene in both that call for a head, has no predictive power, as how messengers and receptors are coded for proteins that regulate a different outcome as to the heads final makeup being nothing alike.

 

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

GBRK be say, "Using your example you have red, you have blue, you have each transitional hue or state between for you to observe.  Today we have the same elements, that was said to make up the primordial soup, existing on this Earth and you have somewhere environmental conditions that is conducive to this so called Evolution yet Evolutionist can only point to the beginning (where we came from) and the end (where we got to) and somehow all the intermediate transitional states have disappeared.   Not only is there missing fossil evidence but evidence can't be found living, existing, walking around today for us to observe and analyze.  "

GB my friend, you completely missed the point.  

Let's try this:  Are you familiar with language?  It is the perfect metaphor for evolution.  log ago, our ancestors likely ( this is an assumption by those who subscribe to the theory no dogmatic evidence exist though) used grunts and clicks to convey thoughts.  those grunts and clicks evolved over time into more and more complex languages.  our ancestors got separated for various reasons.  some traveled to asia, some remained in africa.  some traveled to the brittish isles.  some to the steppes of what is now russia.

each of those groups added sounds to their language.  each group eventually EVOLVED their very won language.  no one alive would say that spanish and french are the same "species" of language but they almost certainly originated from a common source long ago.  that common source is a deal language.  it went extinct.  ( Uno, you do well at presenting your case and I have no problem with metaphors and your choice of examples however it is the glaring inadequacies contained within evolution, as a vehicle by which ALL life species became. Using your common languages and then spreading to diverse languages, again all springing from one common base source, you have to also explain such a diverging of species from insect to animal, to plant to amphibian, reptile and human.  Although these life forms were to have sprung from one singular primordial soup, one element or cell which somehow became life or living from non-living they some species somehow developed/evolved verbal capabilities while others did not evolve into verbal communications.  Even if this is attempted to be explained over eons of time the whole process, from most basic to most complex would be happening right now as we live and breath.  Evolution, even if it happened by accident, would have not become extinct in and of itself and therefore since the most basic/base elements/cells exist today along with a beneficial environment for growth, then samples and increments of the complete process, across the board, should be happening and evident somewhere in the world today.  If Evolution was correct as the vehicle by which life became then the process would still be continuing just as it did on day one.  Evolution by its very nature is not an intelligent process but one which develops out of need so there is no innate knowledge of that base molecule that it need not continue to evolve just because others have in the past.  Also how is it that only Man/Woman/Humans were the only such creatures to develop such a higher level communication ability?  If species were interconnected so that they sprang from one common ancestor then we should have seen, also evolving, inter-species communication abilities with multiple diverse species and across many diverse species but that isn't the case.)

i wonder how many languages are thought to have existed during the past few hundred thousands years?  probably thousands.  perhaps even millions.  all those predecessors are now dead. gone.  the fossils still remain, however.  our own english language has "DNA" left in it from latin, germanic and crillic languages among many others.  yet it is a new "species" of language.

 

using just common sense, it is easy to imagine that all the languages on earth probably came from one single source a very long time ago.  so it is with evolution.

 

that's how it works, GBRK.  can you really not see this? 

 

So evolutionist suggest and propose however it is a theory and just as valid as Creationist or Intelligent Design advocates who propose that there was some intelligent or deliberate reason for the existence of the diverse languages and peoples.  It all depends on what you choose to accept as valid for your own criteria.  If Evolution was the source of all life species, being unintelligent, then the event that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs should have allowed replication to duplicate the evolution that brought everything to the point of development at the time of that extinction event and that wasn't the case.   There are so many diverse species of life and life forms existing today that if Evolution was correct then ample evidence of common diverging life forms should be everywhere.  That is transitional being transitioning from and diverging from amphibian, insect, plant, organisms, animal, and humans.  Evolution is lacking in my personal opinion in explaining how life became and became from non-life.  Life from non-life and then providing for different sexes to allow for sexual reproduction and all this in some non-intelligent accidental process.  Great Faith is certainly needed to accept such a proposal.  That or great gullibility, take your choice.  Sorry but no I cannot see that, for I prefer to look at Earth, Life, and Humans as Special creations by a super high intelligent Creator whether you want to refer to that as God, ID, or some Intelligent Source rather than us, and everything else, being here by Accident all from some great explosion from either nothing or one basic element from which one would need to explain how it had it's origin.  You see I believe the answers are inconceivable to the human mind and that even with our higher intellect and understanding that compared to the Creator and in the scope of things we are very basic ourselves and incapable of actually understanding how things came to be even if that process was simply a Thought of God. 

 

Just as humans enter into a strange and wondrous new world upon birth knowing so little yet over time realizing how little we really know and expanding our learning I believe that is a drop in the bucket (so to say) to what we will experience crossing that border of physical death when our inner spirits enter into the Spiritual Realm which I propose none of us can began to conceive how vast and magnificent it is.   Note that even the birth process is an evolving event in that our knowledge grows in time but if there was not some specialty to it, if it was by pure unintelligent accident that we got here then that process would be extremely longer than it is.  Our minds and capabilities I believe are special and given, granted, by a magnanimous creator/God.

Last edited by gbrk

Evolution bothers you but the idea of a human made out of dirt doesn't? And can you even begin to imagine what size an "ark" would have to be to hold two of every animal and plant on earth? Would something that large even float? What would that weigh? Where would anyone get the materials and workers to even do a small version of an ark? And how many years would it have to rain to even raise the bottom of the thing off the ground if it would float? On that part alone you should call BS on the story of the flood. If your god was going to destroy the wicked couldn't he come up with something less complicated? He supposedly had unlimited power. None of this makes any kind of sense. GB, do you honestly believe this story?

Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Evolution bothers you but the idea of a human made out of dirt doesn't?  ( Actually, Jennifer, evolution doesn't bother me it just doesn't provide a sufficient explanation for how all life became. The ones that seem "bothered" as you put it are those who cannot conceive that I will not blindly accept Darwin's theory.   As for humans made out of dirt, as you said.; This basically comes from the statement that we all return to dust, from which we came, upon death.  I believe that simply means that the physical body (flesh) comes from the physical (flesh or process of sexual union of two like/fleshly entities) and conversely the spirit comes out of the Spiritual realm a creation of the Creator and will exist past the physical fleshly body being released by physical death.)  And can you even begin to imagine what size an "ark" would have to be to hold two of every animal and plant on earth? Would something that large even float? What would that weigh? Where would anyone get the materials and workers to even do a small version of an ark? (Regarding the Ark, again I have no problem there for IF GOD is GOD then being Powerful and much more capable and sufficient than His human creation would be fully able and capable to provide what was needed as for information and provide for miraculous manipulation of the species and creatures that were aboard to enable them to co-exist and live or hibernate the needed time.  Dimensions, provided in Scriptures have been duplicated and tested by experts and determined that the Ark would float and could theoretically exist and have provided shelter,  as for materials, again, If God is God then surely it would not be beyond conception that He could specially provide that which was needed)  And how many years would it have to rain to even raise the bottom of the thing off the ground if it would float? (Speculation is that the construction of the Ark was not an event that was done in one, two, or even twenty years but was a span of many years far more than our current lifetimes are.  As for the water and rain there could be ample explanations of where surplus water could come from in order to flood the land.  And again IF God is God and responsible for creation He could surely control the weather and elements)  On that part alone you should call BS on the story of the flood. If your god was going to destroy the wicked couldn't he come up with something less complicated? He supposedly had unlimited power. None of this makes any kind of sense. GB, do you honestly believe this story?

 

Yes I actually do believe this story.  The great problem that man/woman/humans have with God is that they are always seeking to define and constrict God into Human terms, into Physical terms.  It's not unexpected in that is all we have to go by for we are human and that is the limitation of our understanding and intellect therefore we attempt to define and understand everything within limits set by our the limits of our own understanding and intelligence.  We, being human, restrict ourselves to confining and defining God in human terms.  While this may be expected and rational to do so I believe and assert that God is so beyond the human mind and intelligence that our conception cannot touch the most basic understanding of what God or the Spiritual realm actually is. 

 

Comparing the physical with the Spiritual is similar to the real and imaginary.  When you build a home you can only do so with the tools you have at hand what you can afford yet mentally you can conceive, dream, imagine without limitations.  You can envision and imagine a dwelling or place as ornate, large, and beautiful as the limitations of your own mind yet what actually gets constructed is limited by the extent of what materials you can afford and tools at your disposal.    The Spiritual is likewise much greater than what is limited by our minds limitations.  WE have human limitations that restrict us from being able to comprehend and understand things that are beyond our physical existence.

 

Well GB, again why the drama? If he was so powerful to provide all that stuff, and he wanted to destroy man, why not just do it? Why wait all those years? You believe he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with no fanfare, no hoopla, no years and years of preparation don't you? All those years building an "ark", gathering animals, plants and insects when he could just wipe it all out in five minutes?

Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Well GB, again why the drama? If he was so powerful to provide all that stuff, and he wanted to destroy man, why not just do it? Why wait all those years? You believe he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with no fanfare, no hoopla, no years and years of preparation don't you? All those years building an "ark", gathering animals, plants and insects when he could just wipe it all out in five minutes?

 This response is not concerning evolution but rather addressing your statement about "the drama".  I say this so as not to lead those who might happen just on this answer to believe my opposition to Evolution is rooted in my Christian belief.  Now to address your reply.

 

I can only provide you with a personal opinionated answer, that is really no definite answer.  You are looking for an answer that conforms with human understanding and human reasoning.  We see things through a human (if you will) filter applying our own personal biases and opinions.  We seek for an answer, applying to God, that will satisfy our own convictions and beliefs or feelings in order to reconcile Scriptural accounts that we find conflicting or confusing or unjust.  It is by our standards that we are attempting to judge God's actions attempting to have God conform to our reasoning and our understanding.  Therefore my answer to you as to "Why" God did not do this or that is to say that I have insufficient comprehending of God's ultimate Will and ways to explain why things had to happen the way they did.  Scripture does provide some information as to why certain events or actions had to happen and the reasoning for them and for explanation to future believers and generations but the Bible is also silent in many areas.


It is said: "Absence of proof is not proof of absence" .AbsenceQuotations by William Cowper 


Silence of the Scriptures on many events and actions is also not lack of justification of them.  The end result is that it is essentially a matter of faith on the part of the person making the judgments.

 

Regarding evidence of God or human justification of events recorded in the Scriptures again whoever hears and judges it does so incorporating their own personal biases and prejudices.


 

A few other quotes that I find sums it up concisely are:

 

Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have Certainty without any proof.Science and ScientistsQuotations by C. E. Montague

 

Faith is not belief without proof, but trust without reservation.FaithQuotations by Elton Trueblood

 

and lastly

 

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Semi,

Remember that Christ did not Judge those who placed Him on the Cross before or after so no Christian has that responsibility to do either. 

To bad those that wear the hat can't feel the same way you do.

Thank you for that response, that's the way I have always felt and believed.  I cannot apologize for those that believe differently nor can I justify it, or would I attempt to.  I can only answer for my own actions.

quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Evolution bothers you but the idea of a human made out of dirt doesn't? And can you even begin to imagine what size an "ark" would have to be to hold two of every animal and plant on earth? Would something that large even float? What would that weigh? Where would anyone get the materials and workers to even do a small version of an ark? And how many years would it have to rain to even raise the bottom of the thing off the ground if it would float? On that part alone you should call BS on the story of the flood. If your god was going to destroy the wicked couldn't he come up with something less complicated? He supposedly had unlimited power. None of this makes any kind of sense. GB, do you honestly believe this story?


Hi Jennifer,

 

Based upon your supposition -- an aircraft carrier will never float -- and a 747 will never fly.  But, since the aircraft carrier does indeed float and the 747 does indeed fly -- I see no problem with believing that Noah's ark floated and that there was a world wide flood which lasted for about a year.  Works for me.

 

And, remember that Noah spent 100 years building the ark -- so, he and his sons could have been the only workers.  Or, he could have hired local help.  Materials?  I have always found that if God wants me to do a task -- He will make sure I have the materials.  So, obviously there must have been trees available and a source of pitch for sealing and making the ark watertight.

 

Jennifer, I sincerely pray that you do not think that I hate you -- just because I disagree with you. 

 

And, I have responded using your criteria -- nothing from the Bible -- except the mention of Noah, his ark, and the flood.  But, that is allowed since you set the precedence by mentioning them first.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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