For Heaven's sake

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:
Was the Christian Bible written for all the people that ever lived?
Or was it only for the people of the last two thousand years?
If only for the last two grand, are all non Christians losing their
salvation?

There are many different religions through out the world, and do we know which
ones are acceptable to God, if any, and those that aren't.

Are Christians judged on Christian standards only, and other beliefs could
be judged on its own merits and so on?

Could different locations in Heaven be occuped by belief systems, as
maybe Christians may be are contained in a certain area?
But free to roam to a certain extent.

Will there be some people in Heaven, and lucky to be there, that will be very
surspised to see cult, non christians, heathen or just not wanted?

If you're in Heaven, and a much loved person by you isn't there,
will you know that person is missing?

.

a few interesting questions. the one bolded i've often thought about.
it just always seemed cruel to me, even as a tiny tot beliving as only a child can, that it was a pretty mean trick to punish everyone who didn't belieive in jesus. what about all the people who never heard of him? i thought it was a little like getting a speeding ticket for driving too fast on a road that didn't ever have a speed limit posted. if you don't know the rules, how can you be punished? that's the kinda crap mankind does to itself, not something our just and loving lord would do.

that was when i was a little kid.

as a growed up, it still makes me wonder....how it that fair? there are people who are born, live their life and die without ever having heard of jesus. according to bill's bible, they are just as condemned as adolph hitler.

this is yet one more idea that makes it impossible for me to believe the bible is the word of god.

quote:

There are many different religions through out the world, and do we know which
ones are acceptable to God, if any, and those that aren't.

How would you know that?

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:
Was the Christian Bible written for all the people that ever lived? ( It was And is for all mankind living, that has lived and will live.)
Or was it only for the people of the last two thousand years?
If only for the last two grand, are all non Christians losing their
salvation?( Depends on what your definition of salvation is, God has made a way for all of us to RETURN back to Him if we are obediant.)

There are many different religions through out the world, and do we know which
ones are acceptable to God, if any, and those that aren't.( God only gives His stamp of approval on one church, that is the Church Jesus Christ established. You will be able to recognize this church because it will be the only one on this earth with an UNBROKEN line of POWER and AUTHORITY direct from Jesus Christ.)

Are Christians judged on Christian standards only, and other beliefs could
be judged on its own merits and so on? ( All people will be judged on the ammount of the LAW they have and how well they understand it and how obediant they are to what they have.)

Could different locations in Heaven be occuped by belief systems, as
maybe Christians may be are contained in a certain area? ( There are different levels of heaven, two levels spoken of in the Bible are the 3rd level and the 7th heaven. In my fathers kingdom nare many mansions.)
But free to roam to a certain extent.( Each person that attains a degree of glory will be free to roam in that area. )

Will there be some people in Heaven, and lucky to be there, that will be very
surspised to see cult, non christians, heathen or just not wanted? BIG YES on that one!)

If you're in Heaven, and a much loved person by you isn't there,
will you know that person is missing? ( You will know they bare missing but you will have a perfect understanding of why and be able to accept the absense. If that person gets a lesser degree of glory they cannot come to a higher place of glory to visit, but those of a higher degree of glory will be able to visit those in a lesser degree of glory.)

.

I answered these in belief that they were scencier questions.

quote:

they are just as condemned as adolph hitler.

Hitler was a catholic. He had heard of God. If he repented before he died, he may have been forgiven and welcomed into heaven. Ain't that how it goes Christians?

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:

Could different locations in Heaven be occuped by belief systems, as
maybe Christians may be are contained in a certain area?
But free to roam to a certain extent.

.

a few interesting questions. the one bolded i've often thought about.
it just always seemed cruel to me, even as a tiny tot beliving as only a child can, that it was a pretty mean trick to punish everyone who didn't belieive in jesus. what about all the people who never heard of him? i thought it was a little like getting a speeding ticket for driving too fast on a road that didn't ever have a speed limit posted. if you don't know the rules, how can you be punished? that's the kinda crap mankind does to itself, not something our just and loving lord would do.

that was when i was a little kid.

as a growed up, it still makes me wonder....how it that fair? there are people who are born, live their life and die without ever having heard of jesus. according to bill's bible, they are just as condemned as adolph hitler.

this is yet one more idea that makes it impossible for me to believe the bible is the word of god.

xxxxxxxxxxx

nagel, that was one of the big things that bothered me growing up.
Theres no religion in Heaven, I think its come as you are because
God has already cleared the way or not. Its your life and your heart
the makes the difference.


.

quote:

Originally posted by WINDSONG:

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:

If you're in Heaven, and a much loved person by you isn't there,
will you know that person is missing? ( You will know they bare missing but you will have a perfect understanding of why and be able to accept the absense. If that person gets a lesser degree of glory they cannot come to a higher place of glory to visit, but those of a higher degree of glory will be able to visit those in a lesser degree of glory.)

.

I answered these in belief that they were scencier questions.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

No wind, I'm saying if the person is not in heaven at all, what then?

.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

There are many different religions through out the world, and do we know which
ones are acceptable to God, if any, and those that aren't.

How would you know that?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

We don't know that, but we have many people helping God
sort this out. Who can and can't go to heaven.

God should be grateful.


.

[/QUOTE]

a few interesting questions. the one bolded i've often thought about.
it just always seemed cruel to me, even as a tiny tot beliving as only a child can, that it was a pretty mean trick to punish everyone who didn't belieive in jesus. what about all the people who never heard of him? i thought it was a little like getting a speeding ticket for driving too fast on a road that didn't ever have a speed limit posted. if you don't know the rules, how can you be punished? that's the kinda crap mankind does to itself, not something our just and loving lord would do.

that was when i was a little kid.

as a growed up, it still makes me wonder....how it that fair? there are people who are born, live their life and die without ever having heard of jesus. according to bill's bible, they are just as condemned as adolph hitler.

this is yet one more idea that makes it impossible for me to believe the bible is the word of god.[/QUOTE]
________________________________________

We believe in the LDS(Mormon)Church that if a person lives his or her life
without ever hearing of Jesus Christ or if a person if the circumstances are
wrong for them to believe in Christ. For instance if they are strongly influenced
by thier parents or other adults when they are very young to live a certain way
or believe a certain way. the lord knows thier hearts whether they are good
or bad whether they know or not. We believe they will have the opportunity
after they die before judgement. To learn the things they didn't have the
chance to or couldn't understand, in the spirit world. They will have the
opportunity as they did on earth to chose for themselves whether to except Christ
as thier Lord and Savior. With Hitler he was true hate and evil personified.
Why would our God not give everyone the chance to learn of Him and His Son
when that is the very reason we come to this earth to learn all good things.

Skippy

Interesting post Invictus. I, personally, believe that the next life, after death and that God has prepared for us will be one very foreign to that which we live today. We can only make judgments based upon our environment and fleshly reality. I believe that our bodies, in the next life, will be "glorified" bodies that will be of no specific gender and although I believe we will have the ability to know people or know specific persons I don't know how much memories well will carryover. I think worry, illness, sin, things such as that will be void in our glorified bodies.

As for who will be in heaven, I do not feel comfortable making those judgments myself. I do believe that those who meet God's requirements will be rewarded by God and those that don't face God's wrath and punishment. As to the degree of that punishment I also do not feel comfortable making those judgments for God, I'm satisfied, has those decisions handled.

I am one that fully believes that God could have other life/beings/creations outside Earth itself and regarding humans who were here before the Scriptures and Christ Sacrifice there again God has that handled and I yield to His much more perfect Will.

I personally believe that people, before Christ, lived looking forward to Christ, the Messiah, and those since look and live looking backwards to that moment in time. As for other religions, such as Muslims or the Indians who worshiped a God or anyone else I fully believe, and rely upon, that God is sufficient to reveal Himself to anyone whom He wishes to reveal Himself unto in whatever methods He chooses. My mind and understanding is much to inadequate to attempt to understand God's Will and ways. I have only myself, my actions, to account unto God for and I'm just thankful that Christ died for my sins and inadequacies in order to make me acceptable to God the Father even though my sins are many.

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:

quote:

they are just as condemned as adolph hitler.

Hitler was a catholic. He had heard of God. If he repented before he died, he may have been forgiven and welcomed into heaven. Ain't that how it goes Christians?

Actually, bluetick, I believe that God must enable our Spiritual understanding, through and by His Holy Spirit, in order for us to be able to, really, spiritually understand our state and need for salvation. Many people rely and hope for a death bed confession that they will live as they want, do anything, and right before that last breath call to God and ask for forgiveness.

I, personally, believe that the scriptures teach that this cannot be relied upon. I do believe that all can be saved and all that truly seek God can and will receive a point of time that God will reach out to them, through His Holy Spirit, but that His time is not necessarily our time.

I cannot conceive of Hitler, or anyone like him with his actions, having the Holy Spirit within ( being a Christian ) and if we go by the "fruits of the Spirit" (signs that we can observe that define a Christian and the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life) explained in Galatians 5:22-25

Galatians 5:22-26 (NLT) 22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.

I believe it can be safely said that Hitler was not a Christian believer or saved.

To answer your question though. IF God saw fit to reach out, reveal Himself unto Hitler and Hitler truly accepted Christ then yes I would believe he would be in Heaven and saved from judgment, just as anyone else. Even his level of sins could be forgiven and covered by Christ Blood. Again, though, Hitler committed suicide and if there was such a miracle conversion then I believe that He could not have done that but faced his fate and testified of his conversion and "new" revelation.

The apostles knew well what their testimony, concerning Jesus, would yield and bring upon them yet they stayed the course and testified. When you have full knowledge that God is in your corner and life then nothing has power over you or your fear anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
Interesting post Invictus. I, personally, believe that the next life, after death and that God has prepared for us will be one very foreign to that which we live today. We can only make judgments based upon our environment and fleshly reality. I believe that our bodies, in the next life, will be "glorified" bodies that will be of no specific gender and although I believe we will have the ability to know people or know specific persons I don't know how much memories well will carryover. I think worry, illness, sin, things such as that will be void in our glorified bodies.

As for who will be in heaven, I do not feel comfortable making those judgments myself. I do believe that those who meet God's requirements will be rewarded by God and those that don't face God's wrath and punishment. As to the degree of that punishment I also do not feel comfortable making those judgments for God, I'm satisfied, has those decisions handled.

I am one that fully believes that God could have other life/beings/creations outside Earth itself and regarding humans who were here before the Scriptures and Christ Sacrifice there again God has that handled and I yield to His much more perfect Will.

I personally believe that people, before Christ, lived looking forward to Christ, the Messiah, and those since look and live looking backwards to that moment in time. As for other religions, such as Muslims or the Indians who worshiped a God or anyone else I fully believe, and rely upon, that God is sufficient to reveal Himself to anyone whom He wishes to reveal Himself unto in whatever methods He chooses. My mind and understanding is much to inadequate to attempt to understand God's Will and ways. I have only myself, my actions, to account unto God for and I'm just thankful that Christ died for my sins and inadequacies in order to make me acceptable to God the Father even though my sins are many.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Good answer, of course there will be no illness and worry in heaven and sin
has never or ever will enter Heaven.

I think we will have our gender, but if a loved one doesn't make it to Heaven,
will you know they are not in Heaven?

.

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:

quote:

they are just as condemned as adolph hitler.

Hitler was a catholic. He had heard of God. If he repented before he died, he may have been forgiven and welcomed into heaven. Ain't that how it goes Christians?

Here we go with the Hilter was a catholic speech again.
He had a catholic mother who probably tried to pass her faith on to him. But hitler was evil and not representative of who Catholics are. Invictus, veep, and I are Catholics.

Jeffrey Dalhmer was an atheist while he was killing and cannibalizing, but surely that doesn't represent who atheist are.

Hitler never saw himself as wrong or evil.
He was a sociopath, doubt he repented.

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
Hitler never saw himself as wrong or evil.
He was a sociopath, doubt he repented.

"Good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things. It takes religion to make good people do bad things".-- Steven Weinberg.


Was Hitler just bad, or was it religion that made him to bad things?

I'm thinking he was just bad, but religion didn't prevent him from a dammed thing.


nsns

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
Interesting post Invictus. I, personally, believe that the next life, after death and that God has prepared for us will be one very foreign to that which we live today. We can only make judgments based upon our environment and fleshly reality. I believe that our bodies, in the next life, will be "glorified" bodies that will be of no specific gender and although I believe we will have the ability to know people or know specific persons I don't know how much memories well will carryover. I think worry, illness, sin, things such as that will be void in our glorified bodies.

As for who will be in heaven, I do not feel comfortable making those judgments myself. I do believe that those who meet God's requirements will be rewarded by God and those that don't face God's wrath and punishment. As to the degree of that punishment I also do not feel comfortable making those judgments for God, I'm satisfied, has those decisions handled.

I am one that fully believes that God could have other life/beings/creations outside Earth itself and regarding humans who were here before the Scriptures and Christ Sacrifice there again God has that handled and I yield to His much more perfect Will.

I personally believe that people, before Christ, lived looking forward to Christ, the Messiah, and those since look and live looking backwards to that moment in time. As for other religions, such as Muslims or the Indians who worshiped a God or anyone else I fully believe, and rely upon, that God is sufficient to reveal Himself to anyone whom He wishes to reveal Himself unto in whatever methods He chooses. My mind and understanding is much to inadequate to attempt to understand God's Will and ways. I have only myself, my actions, to account unto God for and I'm just thankful that Christ died for my sins and inadequacies in order to make me acceptable to God the Father even though my sins are many.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Good answer, of course there will be no illness and worry in heaven and sin
has never or ever will enter Heaven.

I think we will have our gender, but if a loved one doesn't make it to Heaven,
will you know they are not in Heaven?

.

If someone dear to you has passed and they did not have the chance or opportunity to know God or be saved, can you pray to God for them to enter Heaven, or have they already cashed their check and that's it?

People pray for the health and well being for others when they are sick, near death, etc, how about praying for their soul after they have passed?

Does this even make sense?

"The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

quote:

Originally posted by IDOL:
.

If someone dear to you has passed and they did not have the chance or opportunity to know God or be saved, can you pray to God for them to enter Heaven, or have they already cashed their check and that's it?

People pray for the health and well being for others when they are sick, near death, etc, how about praying for their soul after they have passed?

Does this even make sense?[/QUOTE]
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As long as someone isn't in hell, they will go to heaven.
Purgatory is still there and sin will never enter Heaven.

God DOESN'T cover our sins.

.

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:

quote:

Originally posted by IDOL:
.

If someone dear to you has passed and they did not have the chance or opportunity to know God or be saved, can you pray to God for them to enter Heaven, or have they already cashed their check and that's it?

People pray for the health and well being for others when they are sick, near death, etc, how about praying for their soul after they have passed?

Does this even make sense?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As long as someone isn't in hell, they will go to heaven.
Purgatory is still there and sin will never enter Heaven.

God DOESN'T cover our sins.

.[/QUOTE]



Jesus paid for our sins...

Happy Holy Thursday!

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:
Was the Christian Bible written for all the people that ever lived? Or was it only for the people of the last two thousand years? If only for the last two grand, are all non Christians losing their salvation?

There are many different religions through out the world, and do we know which ones are acceptable to God, if any, and those that aren't. Are Christians judged on Christian standards only, and other beliefs could be judged on its own merits and so on?

Could different locations in Heaven be occupied by belief systems, as maybe Christians may be are contained in a certain area? But free to roam to a certain extent. Will there be some people in Heaven, and lucky to be there, that will be very surprised to see cult, non christians, heathen or just not wanted? If you're in Heaven, and a much loved person by you isn't there, will you know that person is missing?

Hi Vic,

I can tell you where to find the answer to all your questions -- THE BIBLE!!

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." Everything you need for living the Christian life and serving the Lord.

From the Statement of Faith in the church I attend -- and I agree with it 100%:

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, infallible, and authoritative Word of God, and the sole basis and authority for Christian faith and practice is the Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalm 119:105-160, 12:6; Proverbs 30:5

I also like this from our Statement of Beliefs:

Because God gives man eternal life through Jesus Christ, the believer is secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self-effort of the Christian. It is the grace and keeping power of God that gives this security.

John 10:29; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 7:25; 10:10, 14; 1 Peter 1:3-5

So, Vic, if you have questions about who will be in heaven, how to get to heaven -- or any other questions regarding salvation, our Christian walk, etc. -- go to the Bible. That is where you will find all the answers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by IDOL:
If someone dear to you has passed and they did not have the chance or opportunity to know God or be saved, can you pray to God for them to enter Heaven, or have they already cashed their check and that's it?

People pray for the health and well being for others when they are sick, near death, etc, how about praying for their soul after they have passed? Does this even make sense?

Hi Idol,

First, let's clarify one thing. In America today, and in most of the world -- the Word of God is shared so much that you will find it very difficult to find anyone who has not heard of God and the necessity of being saved. What you will find is a lot of people who will ignore the Word of God, or who will condemn Christians for sharing the Word of God. But, unless one has been living in a cave deep in the forest all his life -- it will be hard to find anyone in America who has not heard of God.

Now, what happens after a person dies? The Bible is very clear that once a person leaves this life, i.e., dies -- there is no second chance. In Hebrews 9:27 God tells us, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment."

This is why it is so important for Christians to be diligent about sharing the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, with all the world. For, when we all breathe that last breath in this mortal body -- our next breath will be in eternity.

And, that next breath will in the eternal home we have chosen in this life -- heaven with God -- or hell, the Lake of Fire. The story told by Jesus Christ in Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable, nor just a lesson to learn -- it is the true story of Lazarus and the rich man. When Jesus taught using parables, there were no names used -- only local symbolism such as agricultural examples which the people could understand. When Jesus used names, i.e., Lazarus, Abraham -- this is a true story -- so, pay heed.

Lazarus, when he died, went into the Bosom of Abraham, the Paradise side of Hades. The rich man, when he died, went into the Torment side of Hades. And, as Abraham told the rich man -- no man can travel from Paradise to Torment, or the reverse -- and no man can go back to warn our loved ones still living. The door of death is final -- then, our eternity begins.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." All people will stand before Jesus Christ in judgment. We are told in Romans 14:10-12, ". . .For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: "[As] I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then each of us shall give account of himself to God."

The believers will stand before Jesus Christ at the Believers' Judgment (often called the Bema Seat Judgment), which is a judgment of rewards, or lack of rewards, for all believers. This is not a judgment of punishment -- for, regardless of how many or how few rewards a believer gets -- his/her greatest reward in being in heaven, in the presence of God for eternity.

The Believers' Judgment will occur after the Rapture when the church, the worldwide body of believers, is in heaven during the seven year Tribulation. During that seven year Tribulation period there are two major event which will occur. First, is the Believers' Judgment which is the final stage of readiness to prepare the Bride of Christ, the church, for the Bridegroom, Jesus Christ. The second major event is the Wedding Feast of the Lamb -- when Jesus Christ takes His Bride, the church, the body of believers -- for eternity. You can read about this in Revelation 19:6-9.

The other judgment is not so nice. At the end of the seven year Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return to earth, His Second Coming. He first came as the Suffering Lamb. His Second Coming will be as the King of kings, the Lion of Judah -- and He will establish His 1000 year Millennial Reign of earth (the perfect theocracy) from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

At the end of His Millennial Reign on earth, all non-believers, all who have died denying God, will be resurrected in their immortal, eternal bodies (Revelation 20:5) -- to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) -- a judgment of punishment. Then, all who died in still denying God -- will go into the lake of fire for eternity.

But, did God send them to hell, to the lake of fire? No!! They sent themselves. During this life, everyone has the opportunity to believe and follow Jesus Christ. All who refuse are condemning themselves to an eternity in hell.

And, that, my Friend, is the truth -- straight out of God's Written Word, the Bible. There is no purgatory! There is no second chance after this life! A person leaves this life headed in one of two directions -- heaven or hell. There are no other choices. However, God loves you so much that He encourages you to choose heaven while you still have time -- before that last breath on earth.

And, for all your loved ones and friends whom you hold close -- if you truly love them -- YOU will tell them about Jesus Christ and His "free gift" of eternal life. If you do not care about them and their eternal life -- then, just don't tell them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

There is no purgatory!

Bill re-read HoD's above post.

Jesus saves....................................Green Stamps.