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Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

I see where you have answered the brain, but that is not entirely logical, especially when saying it encourages the propagation of the species. Love would act in this capacity, but how does hope? We hope it won't rain; we hope we'll win the lottery; we hope our terminally ill loved ones can be miraculously cured. Three very different kinds of hope.

 

What are we hoping for? Not all social sub-groups hoped for an afterlife. I've taken no courses in anthropology, but I was specifically taught that the Viking race, while they believed in various gods, did not specifically hope for an afterlife. Did they have less hope that other races? If so, hope is not innate. If we had no word in the English language for hope, would we still have this emotion?

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Everything in biology encourages the propagation and maintenance of species. "Hope", in part, helps us intelligent creatures make it through to see and live for another day. Those few without any hope kill themselves. We cant procreate and propagate if we're dead. Most humans cannot commit suicide regardless of immense hardships and pressure.

All known human cultures throughout history have had "religion". All know religions have advanced the idea of an afterlife (with the exception of one that I can't recall). The Vikings famously had Valhalla (also Folkvangr, Helgafjell and Helhiem) as concepts of life after death.

"Everything in biology encourages the propagation and maintenance of species. "Hope", in part, helps us intelligent creatures make it through to see and live for another day. Those few without any hope kill themselves. We cant procreate and propagate if we're dead. Most humans cannot commit suicide regardless of immense hardships and pressure"

 

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ok adot  not so fast.where is the science on this outrageous claim of yours here?

Sorry, AR, only those who died in combat went to Valhalla. I believe that would rule out most women, disabled, mentally deficient, etc.

 

As for hope being the reason one does not commit suicide, I once had a patient in H'ville psych ward who would have killed herself, she said, but first she had to clean her house and that was so tiresome.

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Sorry, AR, only those who died in combat went to Valhalla. I believe that would rule out most women, disabled, mentally deficient, etc.

 

As for hope being the reason one does not commit suicide, I once had a patient in H'ville psych ward who would have killed herself, she said, but first she had to clean her house and that was so tiresome.

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You claimed that Vikings didn't have specific hopes for an afterlife. That is proven false even by your admission that Valhalla (and other places) was were they hoped dead warriors went to.

 

The patient you describe was not remotely suicidal. Suicidal ideology, even having a plan for suicide, is not uncommon. Actually committing suicide is uncommon. Those that commit suicide have lost all hope for the possible relief of their torment. It is at that most hopeless of places that one can actually off themselves. Concerns for family, friends, pets, or clean houses are the types of things that keep clinically depressed people from becoming clinically dead people by their own doing.

 

adot here printed below is a quote from your Humanist Manifesto II. Do you believe in assisted suicide?

 

SEVENTH: To enhance freedom and dignity the individual must experience a full range of civil liberties in all societies. This includes freedom of speech and the press, political democracy, the legal right of opposition to governmental policies, fair judicial process, religious liberty, freedom of association, and artistic, scientific, and cultural freedom. It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. We oppose the increasing invasion of privacy, by whatever means, in both totalitarian and democratic societies. We would sa***uard, extend, and implement the principles of human freedom evolved from the Magna Carta to the Bill of Rights, the Rights of Man, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

i'm concerned about a group of people selling the idea of suicide as does the Humanist group.

 

we have several members on this forum who are members of the Humanist group of The Shoals.

 

   a carful study so far of this group and their attitudes point to a Jim Jones type mentality and they do consider thems to be a religious Humanist group.

 

     these people do have children , the metric being now.

 

i'm not atall comfortable with young innocent children being exposed to this mentality.

 

      adot, since you are involved with this group can you give concerned citizens assurance that the humanist are not exposing minors to suicide as an accepted alternative?

I believe hope and love comes from within.  My faith informs me that these are properties granted to us by our Creator - whoever or whatever you deem that to be. To claim it comes from our God is a bit problematic. There are a whole lotta religions in this world. Only one of them can be right. I believe it is mine based on careful observations but who am I (or you) to pretend that that is the only answer?

 

Originally Posted by lexum:

i'm concerned about a group of people selling the idea of suicide as does the Humanist group.

 

we have several members on this forum who are members of the Humanist group of The Shoals.

 

   a carful study so far of this group and their attitudes point to a Jim Jones type mentality and they do consider thems to be a religious Humanist group.

 

     these people do have children , the metric being now.

 

i'm not atall comfortable with young innocent children being exposed to this mentality.

 

      adot, since you are involved with this group can you give concerned citizens assurance that the humanist are not exposing minors to suicide as an accepted alternative?

 

 

Don't you think it's the humanists' business what they teach their kids. Suicide isn't murder.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

WHERE would WE (believers and non-believers, alike) be without hope or love? WHY does hope matter? WHY does love matter?

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I go several days at a time w/o thinking of or mentioning the word Hope. It’s nothing more than a desire for something that may or may not come to pass. It’s sort of like a drug, it gives us a temporary high, but then, reality strikes & we have to face the consequences. I read once that hope can be a fools weapon, a pretty good way of spending the time in between two tragedies.

I can hope my husband will still love me tomorrow, & I have trust that he will but I have no guarantee.  

 

Love is something we need as much as the air we breathe. It’s a need, someone to listen & validate us, a purpose in life & connections to others. Words are easy, it's how a person treats you that proves their love.

I’ve heard people say they're happy to be alone & can live without love, but I don’t believe that.

Most people need to love & be loved in return, because it feels so good.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

"I can hope my husband will still love me tomorrow, & I have trust that he will but I have no guarantee."

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Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513: 

That SOUNDS an awful lot like FAITH.......

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Hope is an act of wishing or desiring that something will happen.

As for faith, depends on how you look at it. For Christians, faith as defined in the Bible is to fully believe in God.

Even a non-believer can have faith. Our belief in someone, something or some cause is to have faith in that person, thing or movement.

 

Faith is an attitude, we can have it in a relationship with someone we love & trust. Doesn’t have to have anything to do with religion.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

...well, it kind of disintegrated for lack of a cogent theme or any maintenance by the OP. It's my fault for expecting too much. I was just curious as to where he was planning on going with it.

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Maybe he's just been busy & hasn't had time to continue it. I'm curious where it's going too.

OK...this is the THIRD time I am attempting to post. 'SOMEone' apparently doesn't want me to????

 

As for 'where this thread is going....'. I have no answer. I simply desired to pick your brains a bit...perhaps to enlighten myself. Perhaps to demonstrate that faith and hope are 2 sides of the same coin. In the following example, which would best describe YOUR feelings?

 

You and your family are headed to..I don't know....perhaps grandmother's house.  You meet countlless vehicles enroute, all at approach speeds in excess of 100 mph. HOW DO YOU KNOW...that the drivers you meet will keep their vehicles on THEIR side of the highway? Is it faith...or hope?

Dog, I'd be wondering where the cops are, getting off that highway, and calling 911 to tell them there are cars traveling at over 100 miles an hour!! I think you wanted this thread to lead to some point where you could say, "see, god is the reason". I could be wrong but that's the impression I get. Hope and faith are two entirely different things imo, and neither requires a god. 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Dog, I'd be wondering where the cops are, getting off that highway, and calling 911 to tell them there are cars traveling at over 100 miles an hour!! I think you wanted this thread to lead to some point where you could say, "see, god is the reason". I could be wrong but that's the impression I get. Hope and faith are two entirely different things imo, and neither requires a god. 

CLOSING speed. NO one was traveling at 100 mph. A vehicle traveling at 55mph meeting another vehicle, also traveling at 55mph, have a CLOSING SPEED of 110mph.

It is certainly no secret that myself along with many great scientists both living and dead argue for the theory of conscience creation. That is: all substances [physical matter or material] do not exist other than in the conscience mechanism of the mind.

      The Bible says just that very thing in Hebrews. “faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for”.

What a wonderful collection of laws and truths is the Bible.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

OK...this is the THIRD time I am attempting to post. 'SOMEone' apparently doesn't want me to????

 

As for 'where this thread is going....'. I have no answer. I simply desired to pick your brains a bit...perhaps to enlighten myself. Perhaps to demonstrate that faith and hope are 2 sides of the same coin. In the following example, which would best describe YOUR feelings?

 

You and your family are headed to..I don't know....perhaps grandmother's house.  You meet countlless vehicles enroute, all at approach speeds in excess of 100 mph. HOW DO YOU KNOW...that the drivers you meet will keep their vehicles on THEIR side of the highway? Is it faith...or hope?

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To tell you the truth, I don't think about such things that often. Life is dangerous. Life is uncertain. I just live it the best way I know how and I don't worry about the things I can't control. In your scenario I would just drive my vehicle to the best of my ability and pay attention to the on coming cars. If one swerved into my lane I would do my best to avoid it. Would you call that hope?

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