For those who care for truth

Wul upside did Madison get false credit or did Madison actually speak these words at some point in history? Do you know?

The POINT is that Barton claimed that Madison said those words but Barton could not find any documentation to prove he said them.

I would say the odds are in favor of him saying that very thing at some point in history.

Certainly no one could deny the possibility of Madison having uttered them.

After all the atheisticisticicts believe mankind appeared at greater odds.

I’m going in with Madison.

Upsidehead, Fundy Xtians never let the truth interfere with a good story. 

DF

The conditions certainly were present at that time for Madison to have spoken those very words.

Opinion at that time would have supported such a statement.

How could there be sufficient doubt that these are his words?

Maggie:

Because a condition exists, it's okay to put words into people's mouths, and say it was true?  That is called historical FICTION. 

Hi Head,

I will admit that I do not know what you believe.  You tell us you are a Christian -- yet, you deny that God ever had any part in American history. 

You tell us you are a Christian -- yet, you want no Christian influence in our state or national leadership.

About the only thing I know for sure about you is that you dislike Mormonism.  Other than that -- I am not really sure what you believe.  Would you care to clarify this for us?  I know that I, personally, am very interested in knowing just where YOU stand in respect to God, Jesus Christ, salvation, eternal life, and teaching our children about God.

And, just for the record, I think David Barton is doing a great job in exposing people to greater knowledge of our founding fathers and the role God has played in the birth and growth of America and our American society.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

David Barton is another Liar for Jesus.  How is fabricating history "exposing people to greater knowledge"?

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Bill, if you have not been able to discern what I believe about just about any topic posted on this forum over the last 3 years or so, then you simply have not been paying attention! As an example of what I am saying, you assert the folllowing, just above:

"About the only thing I know for sure about you is that you dislike Mormonism."

Holy kamoley, Bill! That is astonishing!!  Is your memory fading? Have you forgotten all that I have posted in specific disagreement with YOU on topics such as--but certaily not limited to--perseverance of the saints ("once saved, always saved")  the purpose of baptism, and the scriptural method of church governance?

Go back, Bill, and read what I have posted under "beternU" and "upsidedehead" and you will find that your alleged incapacity to discern my beliefs must derive from your own failures, and certainly not from reluctance on my part to state my views!

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Come ON, Mag!  That is a pitifully weak rationalization.  Barton submits a specific statement within quotation marks that he asserts was made by a specific founding father, but that can not be found in anything that Madison wrote or in anything cited by Madison's contemporaries as having been said or written by him!  You  attempt to support Barton's insupportable deception

by saying that then-current opinion "would have supported" such a statement.  Any re****ble historian--indeed any honest and careful analyst--would laugh to shame  you or anyone else attempting  to defend Barton or any other wingnut con man-via such a circuituous and speculative strategem.  Try to be at least halfway honest with the facts!

Hi Head,

Unfortunately, in this new forum format -- it is not that easy to look back at previous posts.  I have tried and seldom can find anything.  In the old forum, we could easily do that -- but, not today.

So, to simplify matters -- why don't you take a moment and just answer those few questions.  If you prefer not to do that, not a problem.  I will just have to draw my own conclusions.  Are you, as several have suggested -- in the Church of Christ?  If so, then I will search for their doctrinal teachings to see what you believe.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Now it is obvious why Bill likes ole Dave Barton: they share the same MO.

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Dear Upside, perhaps you are ignoring the mountains of evidence present at that time in the form of allegiance to God that most certainly points to this utterance as being congruent to Madison as a statesman.

Perhaps you have overlooked the abundance of fossil evidence chiseled on the many edifii of our nations capital.

It should be as clear as Darwin’s evolution from monkey ancestors that in fact Madison and indis****bly is the author of these words.

If you don't have any evidence, just make it up. Yeah. That works.

Bill, the point is if schools can teach Christian beliefs, they will have to teach Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Is that what you want? I'm sure since you live in a much more socially diverse climate, you see Muslims and Sikhs almost every day. They're out there. What is the difference? Is it simply we as Christians are in the majority? What if we aren't? What would you say then?

Hi Firenze,

You ask me, "Bill, the point is if schools can teach Christian beliefs, they will have to teach Muslim, Buddhist, etc.  Is that what you  want?  I'm sure since you live in a much more socially diverse climate, you see Muslims and Sikhs almost every day.  They're out  there.  What is the difference?  Is it simply we as Christians are in the majority?  What if we aren't?  What would you say then?"

Firenze, going under the belief that you are a Christian and you live in a Christian home -- and have the tradition of praying and giving thanks to God before each meal -- if you have dinner guests who are Muslim, Buddhists, Mormons, atheists, etc. -- when you give thanks for your meal -- do you also pray to their gods?

No, being a Christian home, and with the Christian custom of giving thanks to our God for the meal; you will do your normal meal prayer to our Christian God and leave it at that.  If the people who are guests in your home will be offended by that -- do you really want them in your home?

Our home, America, is a Christian nation -- always was and always will be.  So, in our home, America, we pray to and worship our God.  If, in their homes, national or private, your guests want to pray to and worship their gods -- our First Amendment gives them  that right.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

So bill, if you have Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, or atheists in your home (fat chance), and they pray to their god or in the case of the atheist either sit repectfully or step out of the room while all the praying  is going on, would you be offended? Would you be a good host if you insisted that only YOU could pray??

You have made a good point.  Thank you.  Actually, I would see no problem if, when we are offering a prayer of thanksgiving to our God -- if my guests quietly did the same, in their own way.   Now, I realize that you will jump all over the word "quietly" -- but, that is the only courteous way for this to be handled.

If I were in a Muslim, Buddhist, etc., home and they were offering prayer to their god or gods; I would "quietly" lift prayer to my God. 

I am reminded of a time a few years ago when three elderly members of our church asked the pastor to have we elders pray with them.  Since there were three of them -- and three; we each prayed with one of them.  I prayed with 80 year old Maggie.  Later, my pastor asked if I noticed that Maggie was praying in tongues while I prayed for her.  I had noticed that she was praying quietly while I prayed -- and I saw nothing wrong with that.  I do not pray in tongues; but, if this brought peace and comfort to Maggie -- why should I object?

So, the same would be true of other Friends, especially those who are non-Christian.  If while I am praying, giving thanks to God for our food -- or praying to God for their protection and salvation -- why should I object if they are also praying?

Jennifer, thank you again for raising this very important question.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You have made a good point.  Thank you.  Actually, I would see no problem if, when we are offering a prayer of thanksgiving to our God -- if my guests quietly did the same, in their own way.   Now, I realize that you will jump all over the word "quietly" -- but, that is the only courteous way for this to be handled.

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I'm not going to "jump all over the word quietly", but that is not being a good host. You're putting limitations on them and still insisting that your prayer be the only one given credence. Why wouldn't you ask one of your guests to say a prayer? Now that does sound like the polite thing to do.

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God established church, home, and state. Home and state are separate. Prayers at home and prayers at a state funded school, etc. are therefore different.

If you think that having a Christian prayer each morning in school would not cause a batspit dipstick to file a law suit to have a Muslim, Buddhist, Pastafarian, etc. prayer also, you haven't been reading these forums. Do you want your children subjected to that? I don't.

If you can afford to send children to a private Christian school, great; but what about those Jewish or Christian images elsewhere on government funded buildings? Do you want to have to see a statue of Cthulu each time you renew your driver license?

 Do you want to have to see a statue of Cthulu each time you renew your driver license?

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Might be way cool. Gargoyles are pretty cool.

When I hit the Lotto, my Trophy House will feature gargoyles.  Just for fun..... LOL!

DF

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They're on churches too.

All the better, Jen.

Are you familiar with William Lane Craig?  He is considered mighty among Christian apologists.  He uses bogus statistics to make poor points.  Dig this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...&feature=feedlik

DF

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Those words (NOT an "utterance, since there is no documentation of their having been uttered) might or might not have been "congruent" with some things Madison believed, but being "congruent" does NOT equate to being the authentic words of Madison.  Being "congruent" does not entitle some concept to be placed within quotation marks and trotted out as something actually coming from the lips.

Barton produced a "quote" that he can not document to have been uttered by the cited source.  He has done it a lot  more than once.  How much alleged congruence does it take to rationalize all those misquotes away?

If you can't understand this, then I am done with you.  I will not waste any more sweetness on the desert air of your addlepated intransigence!

Addlepated intransigence:  Had to look it up - great stuff.

Old folks use that word-they say they're addlepated meaning they're confused.