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Fourth Generation Mormon Speaks: "I Bear You My Testimony"

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to all my Forum Friends,

Our Mormon Friend, Dwight, has been bringing his Mormon (Latter-day Saints) theology to the Religion Forum for about five months now. And, it has been my experience that he will not directly answer any questions about his Mormon church beliefs. It is my understanding that this is Mormon Evangelism training -- do not answer questions directly, especially in a public meeting or forum; preferring to get the person alone with one or two Mormon evangelists. In other words, isolate the intended convert and speak only from Mormon literature.

This aligns with my personal experience several years ago, when I saw a Latter-day Saints advertisement on television -- giving an 800 number to call, promising to mail the caller a video about Jesus Christ. I called and gave my mailing address. A couple of days later, I received a call from the local Mormon group telling me that their "elders" would bring the video to my home.

I told the girl, "No, your ad promised to mail it; so, mail it. If I have questions, I will call." She promised to mail it. Two months later, no video, so, I called again and the young lady told me their "elders' would bring the video to my home. Again, I reminded her that their TV ad promised to mail the video and, again, she agreed to mail it.

Well, to make a long story a wee bit shorter -- this went on for a year (honest!) before they finally mailed the video to me. And, when I did receive it -- it was five minutes about Jesus Christ -- and twenty five minutes about the Mormon church.

So, as you can see, we really cannot blame Dwight; for this is how they are taught to evangelize -- isolate the promising convert and feed him/her Mormon literature and propaganda.

For a long time I have been asking Dwight a simple question: Do the Mormons worship the preexisting God of the Bible -- or do the Mormons worship exalted men/gods? He steadfastly dances around this question, refusing to answer -- for Dwight knows that a truthful answer will definitely prove, beyond all doubt, that Mormonism is a cult religion.

Since Dwight will not answer my question, I turned to a much better source -- James Walker.

The following bio information on James Walker comes from the Watchman Fellowship web site:
http://www.watchman.org/index....ion=home.bio_jwalker

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James Walker, the president of Watchman Fellowship, is a former fourth generation Mormon with over twenty years of ministry experience in the field of Christian counter-cult evangelism, apologetics, and discernment. He has been interviewed as an expert on new religious movements and cults on a variety of network television programs including Nightline, ABC World News Tonight with Peter Jennings, and The News Hour with Jim Lehrer. He has spoken at hundreds of churches, colleges, universities, and seminaries throughout the United States and internationally.

Education: Rev. Walker holds a BA in Biblical Studies and an MA in Theology (Summa cum Laude) from The Criswell College in Dallas. He serves on the faculties of Arlington Baptist College and The Criswell College as adjunct professor and co-teaches an annual workshop on alternative religions at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He is an ordained Baptist minister and a member of the Society for the Study of Alternative Religions, the Evangelical Press Association, and serves on the Board of Directors of Evangelical Ministries to New Religions.

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For a number of years, I have had a tract written by James K. Walker and published by the American Tract Society, telling of his experience as a Mormon and why he left Mormonism. The following is the text of that tract:

I BEAR YOU MY TESTIMONY
by James K. Walker
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/walker.html

"I bear you my testimony that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church on the earth today."

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I shared this testimony with hundreds of people. You see, I was born into an LDS home. My father's side of the family had been members of the Church for four generations.

After receiving a testimony, I was baptized at the age of eight and received the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Growing up, I was actively involved in my Ward's Boy Scout programs. As an adult I tithed and attended Priesthood, tithe and testimony, and Sacrament meetings. I also performed my duty in our Family Home Evening and Home Teaching. Later I obtained my temple recommend and entered the Salt Lake City Temple to perform baptism for the dead, which was the high point of my life.

As my commitment increased, a good friend of mine, who was not a member of the Church, became concerned about me. He had been researching and shared some facts on the Church I didn't know about. These facts didn't disturb me, however, because I had prayed about the Church and had a testimony of the truthfulness of our gospel.

But in time I did begin to question my personal salvation: "Why should my Heavenly Father take me to the highest degree of heaven?" The Third Article of Faith says, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." And although I was in good standing with the Church, I was not sure I was keeping all the laws. There were 913 laws just in the Old Testament. I didn't even know all of them.

I also read in 2 Nephi 2523, "... it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." If I was honest with myself, neither I nor any of my LDS friends were really doing all we could do.

I thought I had been trusting Christ as my personal Savior. Really I was trusting my testimony and my good works for salvation. I finally knelt down and admitted to my Heavenly Father that even on my best days I was not perfect. I, like everyone, was a sinner (Romans 3:23). It was hard, but I told God I was no longer going to trust in my own good works or any church for eternal life. From that time on, I was going to trust His Son Jesus Christ alone to save me from my sins, just like the Bible said (Acts 4:12).

Then I was ready to seriously investigate some of the facts my friend had tried to show me years earlier. There was one truth that stood out above all others. The god I worshiped as a Latter-day Saint was totally different from the God of the Bible.

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, in his book Mormon Doctrine (p. 270), admits that many people worshiping God by the right names are really worshiping false gods. He states: "The mere worship of a god who has the proper scriptural names does not assure one that he is worshiping the true and living God." I had worshiped "God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost" (First Article of Faith). The names were right but the god was wrong.

The god that I worshiped as a Latter-day Saint had a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22), was a glorified, exalted man (Gospel Through the Ages, Milton Hunter, p. 104), and was one of many gods (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 576-577).

The God of the Bible does not have a body of flesh and bone. "God is a Spirit..." (John 4:24); "A spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39).

The God of the Bible is not a man who was exalted to godhood. "God is not a man..." (Numbers 23:19); "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God unto an image like to corruptible man..." (Romans 1:22-23).

The God of the Bible is the only true God. "I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me" (Isaiah 43:10); "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

Ironically, the Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible and disagrees with Mormonism, even though I no longer believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God. The Book of Mormon says God does not have a body of flesh and bones (Alma 18:26-28), He isn't an exalted man (Moroni 8:18), and He is the only true God (Alma 11:28-29). How could I believe Mormon doctrine when its own books taught to the contrary?

It was not until years later I realized many false religions also pray and gain testimonies of their religion.

But I bear you my testimony that, according to the Bible, the only true Gospel is that Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again for my personal salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). I thought I could earn Celestial exaltation, but instead I needed to trust Christ alone as my Savior. The Bible says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I urge you to come to the God of the Bible, the only true God (Deuteronomy 435). He loves you and sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for your sins (John 3:16). Admit to God that you are a sinner (Isaiah 53:6) and today trust Christ alone as your Savior (Romans 10:9-10).

"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).

James K. Walker

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

While our Religion Forum welcomes all people to share their beliefs and thoughts -- it is also incumbent upon all Christian believers that we refute those beliefs and thought which are not Biblical. My refuting of Dwight's Mormon teaching is not a personal attack against him; just as my refuting the atheist teachings of Deep and other atheist Friends, is not a personal attack against them.

I have no doubt that if I were to meet Dwight, Deep, and our other atheist Friends in person -- I would enjoy it. Yet, as long as God gives me the ability and the means -- I will continue to refute non-Biblical teachings on the Religion Forum and on all venues He makes available to me.

Jesus Christ tells believers that we are to be His witnesses in all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15). If we believers do not refute false teachings which may be read by new believers and new seekers, teachings which could cause seekers to fall away before they are securely sealed in an eternal relationship with Jesus Christ -- we are failing the Savior who died to give us eternal life. Personally, I cannot do that.

So, let's all be Friends -- Friends who agree to disagree at times -- and let's enjoy our dialogues without getting personal, defensive, or abusive.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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thenagelthenagelPost Master
i don't wish to be your friend. you're to slimy and spend to much time comdemning others for doing the same things you do.

i still can't believe that you called him on not answering questions, when yo uare the all time forum champ for ignoreing the inconvient query or the awkward interrogative. there's whold threads fill with questions you refuse to answer eithr because you disreguard the questioner as a ****ed soul, or because you realize you will look foolish becaue you can't answer it.

you condemn others for believing in their holy writ, while you spew the scripture as though you were afflicted with biblical dysentery.

i rememebr the free video offer. i called the number as you did.

i got my video in the mail abotu a week later, along with a new hardcover copy of the book of mormon. no one came to my house. the only people who've ever knocked on my door are jehovah's witness and baptists. the witnesses were always much more polite.
so from MY experiance with the mormons, i believe you are lying to try and help prove your point.
and that is covered by the 10 commandments - thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor - which means don't make up stuff about people.



you are a bad, bad christian bill and i believe you have destroyed any influence you might have ever had on these forums. no one takes you seriously, i don't think. even christians lean away from you, because they don't want their words of love and hop to be tainted by your messages of bile and fear and threats of suffering and examples of hate and discrimination.
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
Bill, you've already told this long rambling story. I'd say they knew you weren't sincere and only wanted the video to use to do just what you're doing now, bash their religion. I wouldn't have bothered with you either.

I still don't understand your and bettern-nun's intense hatred for Mormons. I have never heard that from my christian friends or christian members of my family. The Mormons I know are no different than anybody else. Granted I don't know that many, but still the ones I know are normal people that have never come at me with any of their beliefs.

As someone suggested, why not use that energy you use to trash Mormons and do something constructive like taking on the "westboro bunch of trash".
BFred07BFred07Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
Bill, you've already told this long rambling story. I'd say they knew you weren't sincere and only wanted the video to use to do just what you're doing now, bash their religion. I wouldn't have bothered with you either.

I still don't understand your and bettern-nun's intense hatred for Mormons. I have never heard that from my christian friends or christian members of my family. The Mormons I know are no different than anybody else. Granted I don't know that many, but still the ones I know are normal people that have never come at me with any of their beliefs.

As someone suggested, why not use that energy you use to trash Mormons and do something constructive like taking on the "westboro bunch of trash".


I doubt that it's a hatred for mormans, most mormans I have met seem to be decent people but their religion is nothing less than a cult that goes against Christianity which many Christians (like myself) find offensive because of the way they portray God. I hate the religion and have disdain for the pedophile who founded the morman camp and conned so many people into joining up and following him, not the people who practice it.
Joseph Smith's personality and actions show a lot of similarities to Jim Jones, mohammed, and David Koresh.
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
I doubt that it's a hatred for mormans, most mormans I have met seem to be decent people but their religion is nothing less than a cult that goes against Christianity which many Christians (like myself) find offensive because of the way they portray God. I hate the religion and have disdain for the pedophile who founded the morman camp and conned so many people into joining up and following him, not the people who practice it.
Joseph Smith's personality and actions show a lot of similarities to Jim Jones, mohammed, and David Koresh.


Child molesters in religions! No way!
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
I'm not a historian by any means, but I do know that during the time of Joseph Smith girls and boys married very young. Not all of them of course, but it wasn't unusual. Laura Ingall Wilders was very young and her husband was 10 years older than her. Was he a child molester? I'd bet you watched Little House on The Prairie and loved the "message" it brought. Loretta Lynn was 13 when she married, bet you like her too. I could go on and on. How old were women in the bible when they married? How about that sleeping with their own fathers and other family members in the bible? How about adam and eve sleeping with their own children?
BFred07BFred07Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
I'm not a historian by any means, but I do know that during the time of Joseph Smith girls and boys married very young. Not all of them of course, but it wasn't unusual. Laura Ingall Wilders was very young and her husband was 10 years older than her. Was he a child molester? I'd bet you watched Little House on The Prairie and loved the "message" it brought. Loretta Lynn was 13 when she married, bet you like her too. I could go on and on. How old were women in the bible when they married? How about that sleeping with their own fathers and other family members in the bible? How about adam and eve sleeping with their own children?


My grandmother was 12 when she married my grandfather who was 19, of course that was 1909 and things were different back then but it was not acceptable for an old man to marry such a young girl. Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young married very young girls when the were 40ish and both also took wives who already had living husbands.
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
I'm not a historian by any means, but I do know that during the time of Joseph Smith girls and boys married very young. Not all of them of course, but it wasn't unusual. Laura Ingall Wilders was very young and her husband was 10 years older than her. Was he a child molester? I'd bet you watched Little House on The Prairie and loved the "message" it brought. Loretta Lynn was 13 when she married, bet you like her too. I could go on and on. How old were women in the bible when they married? How about that sleeping with their own fathers and other family members in the bible? How about adam and eve sleeping with their own children?


My grandmother was 12 when she married my grandfather who was 19, of course that was 1909 and things were different back then but it was not acceptable for an old man to marry such a young girl. Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young married very young girls when the were 40ish and both also took wives who already had living husbands.
It was their religion. IMO your grandfather had no business marrying a 12 year old, but like I said, things were different then. I can't argue for any religion because they're all wacky to me, but what's the difference in them doing that and the things that I posted about the goings on in the bible? And I don't think Mormons would support that today anymore than you'd support a 19 year old marrying a 12 year old.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
It's not just the mormans Bill shows hatred for, he does the same to Catholics.

Hi Chick,

Actually, I can think of no one that I hate. There are some I would not choose to invite for dinner; but, hate them? No.

However, when someone posts a belief or teaching which is antithetical or contrary to Biblical teaching -- I will speak up and refute the false teaching.

Jesus Christ tells us to be His witnesses in all the world -- and, if I did not refute anti-Biblical teachings and allowed the new believers and new seekers to be fed false information -- I would not be a very good witness.

But, hate the Mormons and Roman Catholics? No. As I have said before, there are people who are very dear to me who are Roman Catholic.

And, I have a Friend who has been on my Friends Ministry mail list for years -- who is a Mormon Elder.

I do not bash either of them. However, if they ask me a question, I will give them an honest answer.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
And, I have a Friend who has been on my Friends Ministry mail list for years -- who is a Mormon Elder.

Do you say the same things to that "friend" that you say to Windsong? And there are plenty that would think your teachings are false. And bill, you never answer questions-you demand answers but you never give them.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And, I have a Friend who has been on my Friends Ministry mail list for years -- who is a Mormon Elder.

Do you say the same things to that "friend" that you say to Windsong? And there are plenty that would think your teachings are false. And bill, you never answer questions-you demand answers but you never give them.

Hi Jennifer,

If my Friend asks the same questions or makes the same claims as Dwight -- yes, I answer him the same way.

Jennifer, if you sincerely believe what I write is false -- then, by all means, share your belief to refute me. But, please make it factual and give sources. No, "Well, you are wrong 'cause I don't like you!" type comments please.

I have answered tons of questions over the past four plus years on the Forums. Maybe I have not given the answer you WANT to hear -- but, I do answer.

Now, I will admit that when a question is an obvious attempt to denigrate Christianity, the Bible, or God -- I often will ignore that attempt. But, serious questions, even when far off base -- I most often answer for they give me a good opportunity to share the Gospel.

At times, when the questions become too numerous; I may choose to answer only those which offer the best opportunities for sharing the Gospel.

However, I do not duck your serious, well intended questions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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BFred07BFred07Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
It was their religion. IMO your grandfather had no business marrying a 12 year old, but like I said, things were different then. I can't argue for any religion because they're all wacky to me, but what's the difference in them doing that and the things that I posted about the goings on in the bible? And I don't think Mormons would support that today anymore than you'd support a 19 year old marrying a 12 year old.


I stand corrected, my grandma was 14 (oops). Anyway, it's my understanding that is the way it was back then but last year when my 15 year old daughter was being pursued a 19 year old I threatened (promised) to press charges if he ever tried to communicate with her again.
As for Smith & Young along with many of the other morman leaders, it is my understanding that several of their child wives were not willing participants at the beginning of their marriages. They were simply rapists, they also claimed that it was ok for them to marry women who were already married to someone else if the woman's husband was not a morman.

Basically the mormans were founded by Joseph Smith out of his twisted desire to diddle anyone he wanted including little kids which got him tarred and almost castrated while in Ohio in 1832 by some LDS members that finally wised up to his crap.

As for what you said about Adam & Eve, nothing in the Bible indicates that they slept with their kids, there were several cases of polygamy in the Old Testament however it was never considered OK to take another man's wife and King David was severely punished by God for stealing another man's wife.
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
It was their religion. IMO your grandfather had no business marrying a 12 year old, but like I said, things were different then. I can't argue for any religion because they're all wacky to me, but what's the difference in them doing that and the things that I posted about the goings on in the bible? And I don't think Mormons would support that today anymore than you'd support a 19 year old marrying a 12 year old.


I stand corrected, my grandma was 14 (oops). Anyway, it's my understanding that is the way it was back then but last year when my 15 year old daughter was being pursued a 19 year old I threatened (promised) to press charges if he ever tried to communicate with her again.
As for Smith & Young along with many of the other morman leaders, it is my understanding that several of their child wives were not willing participants at the beginning of their marriages. They were simply rapists, they also claimed that it was ok for them to marry women who were already married to someone else if the woman's husband was not a morman.

Basically the mormans were founded by Joseph Smith out of his twisted desire to diddle anyone he wanted including little kids which got him tarred and almost castrated while in Ohio in 1832 by some LDS members that finally wised up to his crap.

As for what you said about Adam & Eve, nothing in the Bible indicates that they slept with their kids, there were several cases of polygamy in the Old Testament however it was never considered OK to take another man's wife and King David was severely punished by God for stealing another man's wife.
Well first of all we don't know if they were willing or not. David was punished?
********************************************

The question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: “Lamech married two women.” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, said that if David’s wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3.
****************************************
Now then, if adam and eve didn't have sex with their children, where did other people come from?
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
Now then, if adam and eve didn't have sex with their children, where did other people come from?

Hi Jennifer,

In those days, incest was not against the law of God. So, brothers, sisters, and cousins married.

It was later, when the gene pool was threatening to become polluted by intermarriage, that God forbid sibling marriages.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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BFred07BFred07Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Well first of all we don't know if they were willing or not.


Some of the wives are reported to have been angry when they were told they would be marrying him, they really did not have much of a voice in the matter, it was not their choice to make.

quote:

David was punished?
********************************************


Yes, the first child of David & Bathsheba was taken by God as punishment. 2 Samuel 11 and 12

quote:

The question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: “Lamech married two women.” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, said that if David’s wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3.
****************************************


After reading in the New Testement you find that God did give the OK for men to take more than one wife but that he did not really like the idea and it was sort of a concession.

quote:

Now then, if adam and eve didn't have sex with their children, where did other people come from?


I would assume from brothers and sisters doing each other (gross), that's not really addressed in the Bible but I guess we can read between the lines. Anyway, I guess they had to do what they had to do so as to be fruitful and multiply.
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
If my Friend asks the same questions or makes the same claims as Dwight -- yes, I answer him the same way.

Jennifer, if you sincerely believe what I write is false -- then, by all means, share your belief to refute me. But, please make it factual and give sources. No, "Well, you are wrong 'cause I don't like you!" type comments please.

I'm not the only one that knows you don't answer questions. You might answer a question that has nothing to do with a subject, or answer a question with a question, but when you get yourself in a corner you won't answer. IF your "friend" is a Mormon then he believes like Windsong. So I'd say either you have no Mormon friend, and judging by the way you hate them I'd say you'd never be friends with a Mormon, or you wouldn't dare mouth off to him like you do in here to Windsong.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
If my Friend asks the same questions or makes the same claims as Dwight -- yes, I answer him the same way.

Jennifer, if you sincerely believe what I write is false -- then, by all means, share your belief to refute me. But, please make it factual and give sources. No, "Well, you are wrong 'cause I don't like you!" type comments please.

I'm not the only one that knows you don't answer questions. You might answer a question that has nothing to do with a subject, or answer a question with a question, but when you get yourself in a corner you won't answer. IF your "friend" is a Mormon then he believes like Windsong. So I'd say either you have no Mormon friend, and judging by the way you hate them I'd say you'd never be friends with a Mormon, or you wouldn't dare mouth off to him like you do in here to Windsong.

Hi Jennifer,

You keep accusing me -- but, you NEVER give honest, accurate examples.

And, Jennifer, my Friend -- you seem to be the one who is so hung up on HATE. No, I do not hate anyone -- not even atheists.

Yes, I am sure that my Mormon Friend believes most of what Dwight believes. It is just that my Friend is not set on pushing it on the Religion Forum. Dwight tried in Cherokee, and when they rejected him -- he came on the Religion Forum.

Well, guess what? We (excluding the atheists, secularists, and vanilla-flavored non-believers who will agree with a dead horse if they can find a way to denigrate Christianity with it) reject Dwight's Mormon cult religion, also!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Jennifer,

In those days, incest was not against the law of God. So, brothers, sisters, and cousins married.

It was later, when the gene pool was threatening to become polluted by intermarriage, that God forbid sibling marriages.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Your understanding of genetics leaves a lot to be desired. However, God changed his mind, once again?
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
I'm not a historian by any means, but I do know that during the time of Joseph Smith girls and boys married very young. Not all of them of course, but it wasn't unusual. Laura Ingall Wilders was very young and her husband was 10 years older than her. Was he a child molester?


Probably. Just because it was accepted practice then, doesn't mean it was okay. Was slavery ever right?
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jennifer,

In those days, incest was not against the law of God. So, brothers, sisters, and cousins married.

It was later, when the gene pool was threatening to become polluted by intermarriage, that God forbid sibling marriages.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Your understanding of genetics leaves a lot to be desired. However, God changed his mind, once again?

Hi Crusty,

Once again, my Friend, you speak before putting your mind in gear!

God had never forbidden sibling marriage. He had never blessed it and, yet, never forbidden it. But, at some later time, He did forbid it. How is this changing His mind?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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PR Peter RiellyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
I'm not a historian by any means, but I do know that during the time of Joseph Smith girls and boys married very young. Not all of them of course, but it wasn't unusual. Laura Ingall Wilders was very young and her husband was 10 years older than her. Was he a child molester? I'd bet you watched Little House on The Prairie and loved the "message" it brought. Loretta Lynn was 13 when she married, bet you like her too. I could go on and on. How old were women in the bible when they married? How about that sleeping with their own fathers and other family members in the bible? How about adam and eve sleeping with their own children?


i would love for you to show me the passage that states Adam or Eve ever had relations with any of their children. And if you do not have that passage then you simply prove what I've stated about you for a long while now. You don't really know the Bible at all. That's fine. You are an atheist and don't believe it. But once again, it's foolish to state something from the Bible when you know nothing about it. Be an atheist, call the Bible a complete work of fiction, call God just another fairy tale. I really don't care...just so long as you don't try to use a non-existent Biblical passage to attempt to prove your point.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Jennifer,

In those days, incest was not against the law of God. So, brothers, sisters, and cousins married.

It was later, when the gene pool was threatening to become polluted by intermarriage, that God forbid sibling marriages.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Your understanding of genetics leaves a lot to be desired. However, God changed his mind, once again?

Hi Crusty,

Once again, my Friend, you speak before putting your mind in gear!

God had never forbidden sibling marriage. He had never blessed it and, yet, never forbidden it. But, at some later time, He did forbid it. How is this changing His mind?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Read that back to yourself, Bill. If you don't get it, I will never be able to explain. One day you might take your blinders off, put down your legalistic worship of the Bible, and take up its true message. Until then... really?

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JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
i would love for you to show me the passage that states Adam or Eve ever had relations with any of their children. And if you do not have that passage then you simply prove what I've stated about you for a long while now. You don't really know the Bible at all. That's fine. You are an atheist and don't believe it. But once again, it's foolish to state something from the Bible when you know nothing about it. Be an atheist, call the Bible a complete work of fiction, call God just another fairy tale. I really don't care...just so long as you don't try to use a non-existent Biblical passage to attempt to prove your point.

Did I say it was written in the bible? No, so how do you figure I used a non-existent quote? I stated that IF they didn't practice incest where did other people come from. Now read what bill and some others have said, incest was OK but then it wasn't OK. None of this changes the fact the bible IS a work of fiction. A messed up pile of contradictory fictional stories.
PR Peter RiellyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
i would love for you to show me the passage that states Adam or Eve ever had relations with any of their children. And if you do not have that passage then you simply prove what I've stated about you for a long while now. You don't really know the Bible at all. That's fine. You are an atheist and don't believe it. But once again, it's foolish to state something from the Bible when you know nothing about it. Be an atheist, call the Bible a complete work of fiction, call God just another fairy tale. I really don't care...just so long as you don't try to use a non-existent Biblical passage to attempt to prove your point.

Did I say it was written in the bible? No, so how do you figure I used a non-existent quote? I stated that IF they didn't practice incest where did other people come from. Now read what bill and some others have said, incest was OK but then it wasn't OK. None of this changes the fact the bible IS a work of fiction. A messed up pile of contradictory fictional stories.


You stated that Adam and Eve slept with their children. I simply asked you to show me where you ever got the idea that anyone believes that. The Bible doesn't say it, so where did you get that idea?

And again you come with the word "contradictory". Where? What in the Bible contradicts something else in the Bible? MAN contradicts the Bible. The Bible itself is not contradictory. That contradictions lies within your lack of knowledge, but not in the facts within the pages of the Bible.
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
i would love for you to show me the passage that states Adam or Eve ever had relations with any of their children. And if you do not have that passage then you simply prove what I've stated about you for a long while now. You don't really know the Bible at all. That's fine. You are an atheist and don't believe it. But once again, it's foolish to state something from the Bible when you know nothing about it. Be an atheist, call the Bible a complete work of fiction, call God just another fairy tale. I really don't care...just so long as you don't try to use a non-existent Biblical passage to attempt to prove your point.

Did I say it was written in the bible? No, so how do you figure I used a non-existent quote? I stated that IF they didn't practice incest where did other people come from. Now read what bill and some others have said, incest was OK but then it wasn't OK. None of this changes the fact the bible IS a work of fiction. A messed up pile of contradictory fictional stories.


You stated that Adam and Eve slept with their children. I simply asked you to show me where you ever got the idea that anyone believes that. The Bible doesn't say it, so where did you get that idea?
From christians when I ask where all the people came from. So you tell me then, if there was only adam and eve, where did the people come from that their children married?
PR Peter RiellyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
i would love for you to show me the passage that states Adam or Eve ever had relations with any of their children. And if you do not have that passage then you simply prove what I've stated about you for a long while now. You don't really know the Bible at all. That's fine. You are an atheist and don't believe it. But once again, it's foolish to state something from the Bible when you know nothing about it. Be an atheist, call the Bible a complete work of fiction, call God just another fairy tale. I really don't care...just so long as you don't try to use a non-existent Biblical passage to attempt to prove your point.

Did I say it was written in the bible? No, so how do you figure I used a non-existent quote? I stated that IF they didn't practice incest where did other people come from. Now read what bill and some others have said, incest was OK but then it wasn't OK. None of this changes the fact the bible IS a work of fiction. A messed up pile of contradictory fictional stories.


You stated that Adam and Eve slept with their children. I simply asked you to show me where you ever got the idea that anyone believes that. The Bible doesn't say it, so where did you get that idea?
From christians when I ask where all the people came from. So you tell me then, if there was only adam and eve, where did the people come from that their children married?


I don't believe the Bible tells us that "only" Adam and Eve were created. Only that they were the only ones in the Garden of Eden. Also, that they are the direct descendants of Noah, Abraham, David, and Jesus Christ. I've discussed this before. Genesis 1 verses 27 and 28, talks about the creation of "man" in very general terms.
27 "So God created MANKIND in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

However, in Genesis 2, it is a detailed account of the creation of "the man" as it is translated.

Adam and Eve very well may have been the first 2 God created, but in no way do I see is as a definative fact that they were the ONLY 2 God created.
WINDSONGWINDSONGHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
If my Friend asks the same questions or makes the same claims as Dwight -- yes, I answer him the same way.

Jennifer, if you sincerely believe what I write is false -- then, by all means, share your belief to refute me. But, please make it factual and give sources. No, "Well, you are wrong 'cause I don't like you!" type comments please.

I'm not the only one that knows you don't answer questions. You might answer a question that has nothing to do with a subject, or answer a question with a question, but when you get yourself in a corner you won't answer. IF your "friend" is a Mormon then he believes like Windsong. So I'd say either you have no Mormon friend, and judging by the way you hate them I'd say you'd never be friends with a Mormon, or you wouldn't dare mouth off to him like you do in here to Windsong.

Hi Jennifer,

You keep accusing me -- but, you NEVER give honest, accurate examples.

And, Jennifer, my Friend -- you seem to be the one who is so hung up on HATE. No, I do not hate anyone -- not even atheists.

Yes, I am sure that my Mormon Friend believes most of what Dwight believes. It is just that my Friend is not set on pushing it on the Religion Forum. Dwight tried in Cherokee, and when they rejected him -- he came on the Religion Forum.

Well, guess what? We (excluding the atheists, secularists, and vanilla-flavored non-believers who will agree with a dead horse if they can find a way to denigrate Christianity with it) reject Dwight's Mormon cult religion, also!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


NO BILL< Mormonism was not rejected in Cherokee. You live in California and if you get any information it is hearsay. I did not come in the Forum because I was rejected in Cherokee. Again you speak un truths! I came in the forum to share the Good News that the True Church of JESUS CHRIST was RESTORED through the Prophet Joseph Smith and that the Heavens were open to two way communication between God and MAN!

I came to refute your false doctrines that you pass off as the word of God when in fact they are the teachings of Lucifer! I came bringing my testimony of truth and even taught people how to pray to God and how to recognize answers from God through the Holy Ghost.
Now Bill, bec aues you and a bunch of others are against the true Gosple of the one and only JESUS CHRIST, that is taught by the Latter Day Saints, this doesnt make it false. Because you have a very disorted lack of understanding of Gods Word, doesnt make the truth I bring in here any less true. I dont have to defend that which I teach in here, the Holy Ghost will do that. You, My Friend are doing as it is stated in the scriptures, Kicking against the *****s. You are blinded and work as if you were a broken record saying the same lines of untruthfullness of the word of God. You are NOT as wise and all knowing as you believe you are. I now call you to repentance before this entire forum and say unto you, Kick no longer and what did God tell SAUL on the road? Thats to you right now buddy! Be very carefull as to what your response will be to this fore thou are found wanting before the Lord!Thus sayeth the Lord YOUR God, Speak no more ill against my people and mine anointed!
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Hi Jennifer,

You keep accusing me -- but, you NEVER give honest, accurate examples.

And, Jennifer, my Friend -- you seem to be the one who is so hung up on HATE. No, I do not hate anyone -- not even atheists.

Yes, I am sure that my Mormon Friend believes most of what Dwight believes. It is just that my Friend is not set on pushing it on the Religion Forum. Dwight tried in Cherokee, and when they rejected him -- he came on the Religion Forum.

Well, guess what? We (excluding the atheists, secularists, and vanilla-flavored non-believers who will agree with a dead horse if they can find a way to denigrate Christianity with it) reject Dwight's Mormon cult religion, also!

I give you example after example and all you do is this same BS, which is to keep asking which question you haven't answered. The way I see it bill, your "friend" would have as much right as you to come on this forum and so does Windsong. Who made you boss over who could and couldn't post about their religion or non-religion on here. So in other words, if your friend stays quiet and lets you run your mouth about his religion, and doesn't dare call you on your beliefs, he can be your friend. Typical bill attitude. Just like you'd love for atheists to do, just sit back and let you run the show.

One question you never answered-why do you feel you can discriminate against a group of people but get bent out of shape if you think someone has done that to your wife. You never answered that one and plenty more you just skip over because you don't have the answer. Then you act all offended and try to accuse people of "attacking" your family.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Good, Dwight,

Now that we are communicating -- WHO IS GOD?

I'll make it easy for you. Just choose Door 1 or Door 2.

Door 1. Is God the preexisting deity of the Bible -- eternity to eternity?

Door 2. Or, is God in the Mormon church -- exalted men/gods?

Door 1 or Door 2? Who is God in the Mormon church?

Of course, you CANNOT answer -- and we all know why.

But, Dwight, I make you a promise. I will NOT stop asking until you either answer the question or -- just honestly admit to all of us that Mormonism is, as we already know -- truly, a cult religion.

My Friend, by NOT answering this one question -- you are digging the hole deeper and deeper for Mormonism.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bil

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Jennifer,

You tell me, "I give you example after example and all you do is this same BS, which is to keep asking which question you haven't answered."

No, Jennifer, you have not asked a single straightforward, direct question which I have not answered. Yes, you have alluded to issues -- but, that is not asking a direct question.

Let me modify that at wee bit. There may have been a few times when a number of questions have been suggested at the same time -- and, for the sake of expediency, I have chosen to answer only the pertinent questions which I felt will benefit more that just you and me.

But, I have not been avoiding your questions. If you have a direct question, please ask it. If you just want to sling mud -- that is not a question.

Then, you say, "The way I see it bill, your "friend" would have as much right as you to come on this forum and so does Windsong. Who made you boss over who could and couldn't post about their religion or non-religion on here."

You are right that every one has the right to come on the Religion Forum and discuss his/her religion. By the same token, we Christian believers have a right to refute false and unBiblical teachings. Right?

Next, you say, "So in other words, if your friend stays quiet and lets you run your mouth about his religion, and doesn't dare call you on your beliefs, he can be your friend. Typical bill attitude. Just like you'd love for atheists to do, just sit back and let you run the show."

No, there have been times we have disagreed. But, that is not a problem. We both realize there will be times when we have to agree to disagree -- but, that should not affect our friendship. Do YOU cast away people just because they disagree with you?

But, Jennifer, please believe me -- I do not want you atheists to remain silent on the Religion Forum. Atheists give me the absolute best platforms for sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with our silent Friends who only read. So, please, keep those Cards and Letters coming!

And, you say, "One question you never answered - why do you feel you can discriminate against a group of people but get bent out of shape if you think someone has done that to your wife. You never answered that one and plenty more you just skip over because you don't have the answer. Then you act all offended and try to accuse people of 'attacking' your family."

Jennifer, one thing we who have been on the Forum for a long while understand -- is that people's families are off-limits. Say what you will about me, or other members -- but, stay away from our families. And, we will stay away from yours. You have not seen anyone mentioning your husband, children, or other family members -- right? That is because in a mature discussion; we have learned to show respect for other members' families.

But, since you did bring up the situation where a blonde, Caucasian waitress showed discrimination against my wife and her client -- that situation did happen just as I shared it. I did not share it to knock blonde caucasians or any other group. Hey, I am a blonde caucasian -- or, at least I was. Now my hair is a wee bit more blonde -- or some may call it white. But, I am still a caucasian!

We all have seen ignorant people who will show such discrimination. I am sure you have seen it before. In the late 1950s, my friend who is from India was a teenager. Her step-dad was an American caucasian who worked in management for TWA. One Sunday, Cynthia, her mom, and step-dad were on a Sunday drive and stopped at a cafe in San Pedro, California. The owner or manager, or whatever, told them, "I don't serve blacks in here." Her step-dad told the man, "My wife and daughter are from India.'

And, this man's highly intelligent response was, "I don't care! They are black to me!" To me, this just shows the ignorance of prejudice.

Growing up in the Shoals area in the 1940s and 1950s, there were no Hispanics or Asians at all. The only Hispanic or Asian we ever saw was in the movies. After graduation from SHS, three friends and I went into the Air Force. Fast forward a couple of years and I was stationed on an Air Base in Texas.

One day I was walking to the main gate when a car stopped for me. It was another classmate who had graduated with us from SHS. As we were driving toward town, he told me, "These damm Mexicans; they are worse that the damm N - - - - - -!" I was both stunned and shocked. In my home in Sheffield, we were not raised to be prejudiced against a person's skin color.

And, at that time, until the past couple of years, this fellow SHS graduate had never seen a Mexican or any Hispanic person in his life. And, now he hates them? Give me a break! That is total ignorance speaking! And, that is the sum total of all such discrimination and prejudice.

So, yes, Jennifer, I did feel justified in writing to corporate headquarters when the manager of this restaurant would not apologize for what her employee had done to my wife and her client, or have her employee apologize. And, I felt no guilt over the blonde being fired.

But, Jennifer, back to the main point of your last statement, "why do you feel you can discriminate against a group of people. . .?"

Disagreeing with Dwight's Mormon religion, or your and Deep's atheist religion -- is not discrimination, nor is it prejudice. You, as a group, make unBiblical claims which I feel can be harmful to readers who are new Christians or are new seekers -- and I respectfully refute those claims. How is that discrimination?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Jennifer, one thing we who have been on the Forum for a long while understand -- is that people's families are off-limits. Say what you will about me, or other members -- but, stay away from our families. And, we will stay away from yours. You have not seen anyone mentioning your husband, children, or other family members -- right? That is because in a mature discussion; we have learned to show respect for other members' families.

But, since you did bring up the situation where a blonde, Caucasian waitress showed discrimination against my wife and her client -- that situation did happen just as I shared it. I did not share it to knock blonde caucasians or any other group. Hey, I am a blonde caucasian -- or, at least I was. Now my hair is a wee bit more blonde -- or some may call it white. But, I am still a caucasian!

More BS from bill. I told you too that maybe the waitress was having a bad day, maybe your wife wasn't nice to her, but you didn't care. You didn't do the "christian" thing and forgive her and let it go, you had to try to get her in trouble. What I say is NOT attacking your family so give that old tired excuse a rest. I was attacking the way you went after the waitress without knowing why she did what she did. AND you are so quick to yell about people attacking your family even when they aren't, but you think nothing of attacking others. I ask you WHY you felt you had a pass.
It seems to me since you're so thin skinned about it you'd know how it feels, yet you have no problem attacking people because of their sexual preferences. What's the difference bill? What if there were groups marching in the streets against your wife? Would you like that or would you consider that wrong?
JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
But, Jennifer, please believe me -- I do not want you atheists to remain silent on the Religion Forum. Atheists give me the absolute best platforms for sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with our silent Friends who only read. So, please, keep those Cards and Letters coming!

Bill, you're not sharing anything. We've heard it. We've been there, done that, got the t-shirt. What makes you think you'd ever have any affect on your "silent friends"? You are the best argument against religion I've seen in a while.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Jennifer,

You say, "More BS from bill. I told you too that maybe the waitress was having a bad day, maybe your wife wasn't nice to her, but you didn't care. You didn't do the "christian" thing and forgive her and let it go, you had to try to get her in trouble."

Well, first, I have to explain that, at that time, I was not yet a Christian. However, I probably would do the same thing today.

Was the waitress just having a bad day? I have to say no; for my wife and I went to the restaurant several hours later, when my wife came home. When we walked in, the manager was at the cash register -- and the waitress was standing at the end of the counter watching us. The smirk on her face told the whole story. She was not having a bad day -- she did not like Asians. So, her problem was not a bad day -- but, a bad attitude.

And, my wife is a professional business woman -- who would not mistreat a waitress or anyone -- especially when she is with a client.

What the waitress apparently did not know is that the Vice President to whom I wrote the letter was also Asian, Vietnamese. And, he knew Dory and knew her to be very professional; not the type who would mistreat a waitress.

I politely told him in the letter that if their restaurant chain did not want Filipino customers coming to their restaurants, as this waitresses' attitude seem to imply -- all he had to do was to tell me and I would be happy to pass the word around the different Filipino communities. He wrote back that his chain respects and does want Filipino customers -- and that the blonde waitress no longer worked for the chain.

This is something her prejudice brought upon her. If it had not been me -- I am sure that someone else would have reported her to management. I have found over the years, that a polite telephone call or a politely worded letter to management -- is much more effective in combating such prejudice -- that arguing and fighting with people.

Then, you say, "What I say is NOT attacking your family so give that old tired excuse a rest. I was attacking the way you went after the waitress without knowing why she did what she did. AND you are so quick to yell about people attacking your family even when they aren't, but you think nothing of attacking others. I ask you WHY you felt you had a pass."

As you can see from my response above -- I did give the waitress time, several hours, and an opportunity to set things straight. For the sake of argument, let's say that she had been having a bad day earlier -- how does that justify the smirks she gave us when I was talking with the manager? An intelligent person, seeing me talking with her boss -- would have come forward and apologized, or done something to clear the air. All she did was to smile and smirk.

Next, you say, "It seems to me since you're so thin skinned about it you'd know how it feels, yet you have no problem attacking people because of their sexual preferences. What's the difference bill? What if there were groups marching in the streets against your wife? Would you like that or would you consider that wrong?"

Now, you seem to be dozing off. I do not attack people because of their sexual preference. But, I do say they have no right to try to replace the Traditional Marriage which has been in place since Adam and Eve -- with an aberrant same-sex marriage. And, yes, I will fight against this moral wrong. How does this excuse the rudeness of a prejudiced waitress?

Am I being thin skinned when I say that we Forum members should respect the families of other members? No. How would you feel if I, or another member, began to write about your husband -- or other family members on the Forum? You would be upset -- and rightfully so.

So, let's aim our comments at other Forum members who have chosen to jump into the fray -- but, let's leave everyone's family out of it -- okay?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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