Skip to main content

Here is the assessment of a local elected official I know well:

The FPD has some wonderful people working in it. The Rank & File deserve better pay and working
conditions. The City needs more and better paid police personnel on the streets and fewer and lesser paid supervisors and higher-ups in the building.

One problem is that there are way too many "supervisors" supervising way too few people. The ratio is way out of whack. This means resources are mis-allocated cheating some and overly rewarding others. It is inefficient, cumbersome, wasteful, and top-heavy.

The most glaring example is that Florence, Alabama has THREE Police Chiefs. That is ridiculous. One "deputy" Chief is plenty and even that is not a given. But two Deputies and a Chief? Come on.

There are also too many other high-up type positions getting too much resources that could be better spent and used down the line. This breeds a complaceny and self-preservation type behaviour instead of innovation and stream-lining. It is insular and isolated and has contributed to the scandals and problems that are undeniable.

Political rhetoric will not solve it. Realism and a willingness to change might. Then the City could pay the Rank & File a worthy wage, retain more and better people, and get out of the cycle they are now in. The resources and money could be much better utilized.

A leader with vision and courage could change it for the better of the majority of men and women in the Department, and for the betterment of the City itself. Morale would be higher within, and the citizens would have more confidence as well. That is a win/win.

Many of the Rank & File agree with this but are scared to say so. Publicly at least. They do know the score though and hope it can be changed.

It would be beneficial. For most at least. There would be a few sacred cows squawking but that would be proof of the correctness of this approach. Something must be done. That is certain.
Last edited {1}
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Well, pray tell, who is the expert at running a Police Department around here? This elected official may not, as you say, "know what he's talking about" or "how to run a Police Department" but from the looks of things, HE SURE AIN'T THE ONLY ONE that don't.

And I have heard that a lot of police personnel privately say exactly what was said here. Pay more to patrol for example, and that the FPD is Top Heavy. Too many supervisors supervising too few people. Resources could be better utilized.

Free up money to raise pay where it is needed most. Raise pay and morale. That sounds very sound and good policy.

The reaction was that of toes stepped on. ie The predictable "squawking" mentioned earlier. Any change brings that, even change for the better.

Especially change for the better.
Last edited by FDR
If your candidate is S. Carrier it wouldn't be a change for the better. Yes, more pay would be nice, and more patrolman on the street would too! but that's not Chief Singleton's fault. He's asked for several years for more officers and the Council doesn't listen. The council has an opportunity to approve a Public Safety pay scale but where are they with that? Until you come to the PD and sit with us, talk to us and walk in our shoes, state your own opinions and don't be the voice for a political idiot!
quote:
Originally posted by FDR:
Well, pray tell, who is the expert at running a Police Department around here?

And I have heard that a lot of police personnel privately say exactly what was said here. Pay more to patrol for example, and that the FPD is Top Heavy. Too many supervisors supervising too few people. Resources could be better utilized.

Free up money to raise pay where it is needed most. Raise pay and morale. That sounds very sound and good policy.




Well, if experience were the only way to judge the two men, then I would say that 20 years as a police officer compared to 1 year as a city council member would make Singleton the expert.


Yes the PD needs more officers and more resources, but exactly how are you going to "free up money" to get the things you say? Cut jobs? Cut pay? Early retire? Re-allocate funds from other necessary resources? I agree they need more funds, but unless you are going to say that Carrier will take a paycut and reallocate those funds to the PD -- you are going to be robbing Peter to pay Paul...
I'm with Huck on this one. When you do a great job of running a police department, people tend to hate or fear you. When you do a mediocre job, people tend to think you're incompetent. It's human nature: people don't want their police to be great, they just want a lot of them instantly when they need them, and not bothering them with silly things like traffic tickets when they don't need them. A police administrator walks a razor's edge. But one thing is certain...you'll always find it difficult to recruit or retain high quality people on the salaries they pay cops in the shoals area.
quote:
There would be a few sacred cows squawking but that would be proof of the correctness of this approach. Something must be done. That is certain.



Actually, this is representative of how your man Scott would try to run city government. Your question is loaded and you are trying to set up any response, whether legitimate or not, as "squawking." You try to slant any response to make you and Scott look right, though I would like to hear of even one job that Scott has held where he was in a management position. Then, try and tell me one job where Scott was actually a manager of people in management positions. It can't be done. Unless he tries to say that a part time teaching gig at a community college fits this bill. Let's hear him talk about, lets see, was it Oxy or the tissue plant he worked at for a stint? I don't remember.

If he had held one of these jobs, maybe he would realize that you always have the "naysayers and complainers" at any workplace. When you are one of them, it becomes impossible for you to spot one of them. If even one of the people he is getting his info from at the PD is known as a productive, effective worker, who tries to be at the tip of the spear, I will apologize to Carrier's face. But they aren't.

The fact of the matter is, and Scott is aware of this, that more supervisor positions were added as a means of retention.

But if Scott wants to hear sqawking, hear this Scott....pass the public safety pay scale. Take heed to what Mr. Barnhart and Mr. Pendleton have both said in the past, and add police officers. Next, take a look at Huntsville, Decatur and even Athens and realize that if it was just about money, officers could go 60 miles east and make more money than Scott ever intends to give to the Florence Police officers.

I find it hilarious that FDR, HFF and the others so prone to share Carrier's ideas try to paint him as a genius. Just as one other post said, all of a sudden Carrier knows everything about running every department in the city. Well, why do we need a police chief, a fire chief, a park and rec director, a city engineer, a city planner, a street and sanitation department head when all we should do is ask Scott.

If Scott gets into office he will micromanage every aspect of every department. One more over eager, know it all is NOT what the city of Florence needs.

Hey Scott, FFH, FDR, nomoreironsinthefire, and all your other personalities, GIVE ME THE BREAK.

If anyone wants to see an issue that no one cares about but Scott, just watch the posts where FDR and FFH have one post after another in order to try and fabricate interest in topics that no one is interested in. Besides this post, his other most recent was "gold in them mines." Watch him and see.

Hey Scott, maybe instead of sqwaking, the people who respond acutally just know more than you and their responses are actually true, right and correct. But you try to paint them into a corner don't you?
I hope that some with the correct information can verify this, but it is my understanding that during the last hiring proves, there were approximately 40 applicants. By the time all of the pre-employment testing and back ground information was checked, the 40 applicants were trimmed to approximately 5, maybe 6. How many of those were hired and what happened to the others, I do not know> For those not hired, I can only suspect they failed part of the pre-employment testing.

This problems is not limited to just FPD, but to other law enforcement agencies as well. Some agencies have been forced to lower their employment standards in order to recruit potential officers.
Must be on to something. Sure hit a nerve. Thanks for proving the point. Some are so sensitive and thin-skinned and defensive. It works against actually intelligently discussing anything and maybe, just maybe, solving it.

You gotta start somewhere and there appears to be a willingness to find money for a pay raise. Does it scare you that a certain one might actually do it? Some of you are way off base. The reaction is funny in a weird way.

Also, if you call the FPD you get a series of recordings for this and that. Incredibly, it still (as of June 10, 2008) says for Deputy Chief Williford press..., for Deputy Chief Logan press..., and I swear it sounds like Pete Williford's voice on the recording. That's ridiculous at this point.

If you heed the "Broken Windows" philosophy of organizational improvement which says the small details and things tell us about the larger ones then what in the world does that say? It also says paying attention to these things and fixing things small and big is the key.

Denying the windows are broke won't solve a thing. Everybody else knows they are broke, they see it plainly. Which is why the people inside the building with the broke windows look silly denying they are broken. There comes time when you have to just shut up and fix the dog-gone windows.

Also, don't Police personnel have better things to do than worry about forums and panicky, self-serving responses and all this. I think there is an unsolved murder and at least two armed robberies, one with a shooting, unsolved; so maybe Huckle-Buck,etc. ought to keep his eye on the ball if you know what I mean.

And earlier I never mentioned Scott Carrier or Rick Singleton but since some of you did here's what Scott said:

Scott is for a pay raise for Police and Fire. He thinks it is sad that Athens and other smaller cities pay more than Florence. He does listen to personnel in each of these two, and all, city departments, and realizes the frustrations people are feeling. He wants to find a way to bring the pay up to where it is worthy of a City this size and of the quality personnel we do have.

He is for the men and women of both departments. He has heard from within both places (FPD & FFD) these points that so irritated a couple of the posters here. It is cutting a little close to home apparently.

To change things for the better will require real answers to real problems, not childish name-calling and petty insults. Making excuses for some people and personal attacks on Scott might make some feel better but people see through it and it solves nothing. The FPD and FFD have problems and attacking Scott might make a nice diversion, but the people of Florence want what is right for the City period,and know both departments need some work to get where they ought to be.

As for the Public Safety budget deal, what happened to Pendleton and Barnhart, who it was said earlier, want more police? What happened to them indeed? Scott told Pendleton he would support that. The Public Safety Committee of the City Council has not moved on it. Why not?

And the Million-Dollar question: Where the heck is the Mayor? ZERO Mayoral leadership on any of this. I guess that gets a pass huh? That figures. What's new?
Last edited by FDR
For some reason you have it in your head that the Mayor is supposed to have his hand and say and finger on everything that goes on in the city. I understand that the Mayor is the Top Man on the Totem Pole, but what is the purpose of having Department Heads, Chiefs and Committees to make informed decisions for the area in question -- if you are only going to blame the mayor for not being in the middle of it. With your way of thinking, we could just fire all of them or retire them early and let the Mayor handle it all...that is ridiculus. I realize your faith in your man, but your man has run in the past when things got too stressful -- I don't think you need to put that much pressure on him again and make him crack completely.

Then again, I guess that is STinky and acting mayors points that Carrier has no actual hands on management experience except when he jumps in with both feet and takes over and oversteps boundaries -- so if that is a great management style then Scott is perfect for the job.

Personally, I like a boss that lets me do my job and trusts me to do what is best for my company...hence why I have held a job longer than Mr. Carrier has at this point...



And yes, the current rank and file structure was put in place as a retention method to keep some of the officers that were leaving because they had gone as far up the ladder as they could here in Florence. Yes, more pay is needed for all of our public safety personnell -- they need to make more than some of our other City Leaders but that is my opinion...


As far as why those were not hired -- the City of Florence holds high standards when it comes to the hiring process and Dr. Sockwell is excellent at her job in making sure they have all of their ducks in a row before she puts them out there for a job offer...if they didn't get hired it was for a good reason.
Told ya'. A total abdication of leadership from the Mayor is excused. Wow. Again, thanks for proving me right.

By that logic that the Mayor has no role, we don't need a City Council either,just let Department Heads decide everything, set budgets, hire and fire, set policy.

So what is the role of Mayor? Figure-Head? Then the salary is way to high for that and the car and benefits and perks, etc. ought to be cut out immediately.

Then the Mayor can take absolutely no credit for anything either if you are going to shield him from all responsibility for anything.

When problems exist the top-dog has a responsibility to lead and manage it to a better solution. If things are going well then yes, leave it alone. But if not, and the people supposed to be managing it and leading are not getting it done, then the top-dog must step in and get it done.

This complacent easy way out lack of leadership has led to scandals, low morale, lower than right pay, etc. It has stagnated things. The same old, same old, is not working. That's the point. Something has got to give and that starts at the top.

Things are not right in either the FPD or the FFD. That is obvious to any objective observer, including the people of Florence. Leaving it be is irresponsible for a Mayor. It is a cop-out (pardon the pun) and not right.

I think, a Mayor speaking out on things, using the Bully Pulpit, can accomplish a lot. It could be used to go to bat for the people who need a voice,. Like the men and women who need a raise and better working environment, to raise morale, which is low in both the FPD and FFD right now.

That's not "micro-managing" that's LEADERSHIP. Which is sorely lacking.

Some of you are so quick to trash Scott Carrier and alibi for Bobby Irons it is pathetic. You blame a City Councilman and then give a Mayor a pass? That's patently false and ridiculous and fallacious.

Scott has said he will vote for and support a Public Safety Budget. He is not on the Public Safety Committee so you can't blame him for their in-action. Although some of you probably will try anyway.

They are dragging their feet because they are getting no direction from the Mayor. That's the truth. Like it or not. It is incredible anyone would just whitewash the Mayor's lack of leadership on this. It starts at the top.

Scott at least is willing to put ideas out there and risk the inevitable and sadly predictable blow-back. He has the courage others lack. If y'all would stop acting so childish he would probably actually work it out with you and get you exactly what you really need.

Perhaps that is what scares some people. He might actually do it and that doesn't fit the politics of some people. I bet the FPD and FFD personnel will have batter chance of getting the raises and better conditions under Scott Carrier than under his opponent who has had FOUR YEARS to do something, anything, and has done NOTHING.

All you get there is empty flattery and rhetoric. He tells the Departments how wonderful they are but does nothing to really help. It's manipulation and hypocritical and duplicity ie double-talk.

Scott is real and he will really do what he says and he is committed to getting the raises. I believe it. He's not the one saying he is for it but not doing it. That's the Mayor and Public Safety Committee. And that's the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by FDR:

When problems exist the top-dog has a responsibility to lead and manage it to a better solution. If things are going well then yes, leave it alone. But if not, and the people supposed to be managing it and leading are not getting it done, then the top-dog must step in and get it done.


In your description then I guess Scott will be jumping into every Department and getting into things he knows nothing about...I'm sure people think it's "easy" being a cop or a fireman -- but until you've walked a mile in their shoes, please don't insult our brave servants by acting like Scott would be a better "Chief" than one of their own. I guess he'll also fire all of the department heads and clean house with all the areas he is unhappy with and then really create chaos for our fair city. Good job.

quote:

I think, a Mayor speaking out on things, using the Bully Pulpit, can accomplish a lot.

That's not "micro-managing" that's LEADERSHIP. Which is sorely lacking.


I love that you finally admitted what many people think of Scott -- that he is a BULLY who likes to stand on his soapbox and dictate everyone .... yea that is great leadership...

quote:

Some of you are so quick to trash Scott Carrier and alibi for Bobby Irons it is pathetic. You blame a City Councilman and then give a Mayor a pass? That's patently false and ridiculous and fallacious.

I haven’t blamed Carrier for anything because he really hasn’t done anything yet. I don’t alibi Irons – I just don’t think you can blame him – there really is no comparison in the two – one is the Mayor and one is a “Wanna Be”. IF – If he wins this election, then I will alibi him or blame him depending on what decisions he makes in office. Until then, it is pure SPECULATION…

quote:


Scott has said he will vote for and support a Public Safety Budget. He is not on the Public Safety Committee so you can't blame him for their in-action. Although some of you probably will try anyway. They are dragging their feet because they are getting no direction from the Mayor. That's the truth.


How can that be? Mr. Carrier is on the board -- can't he just BULLY them into making a decision...?
quote:
If y'all would stop acting so childish he would probably actually work it out with you and get you exactly what you really need.


HA! Childish! Are you kidding me! Here is the man that toots his own horn, runs his own campaign on the TD forums, supports his own agenda by using his own fictitious personalities to support his own arguments, and we are the childish ones? And what was that about name calling? You still haven't addressed my question about Scott's management expereince. You lose the empty rhetoric and give me experience. You aint got none.
That's funny I don't recall seeing Mr. Carrier at any of the Roll Calls! The vast majority of Officers don't care for Carrier at all. His past actions against personnel hasn't made him popular. The mayor's job isn't to go to bat for the Officers and Fireman to get a pay raise, that's the job of the respective chief's. They have thus far been fighting for their people. Don't voice your opinion on the morale of the PD or FD unless you come down and talk to everyone. One never sees Carrier around the Officers. At the Annual Meeting this year, he walked the isles looking for a seat. He finally sat down next to a reporter for the Times Daily. He didn't sit and talk to an officer, it was a reporter! He doesn't care about us, it's all about him! Mayor Irons stopped and talked to the officers, and didn't chase the press.

Tell me. Why do YOU think the morale is down in the Police Department?

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×