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Hi Smokey,

 

Who is Jesus Christ to you and where is He today?  Is He still an infant in the arms of Mary?  Is He a dead body hanging on a cross or crucifix?   What does Scripture tell us about who and where Jesus Christ is right now?

 

Colossians 3:1, "Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."

Luke 22:69, "Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God."

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Romans 8:33-34, "Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?  Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."

 

From this we know that Jesus Christ is NOT still hanging on a cross; that He is in heaven right now, seated at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for all Christian believers.  He is alive and well, at the right hand of God the Father as the ONLY mediator between God and man.

 

Who is the poor soul you still have hanging on a Roman cross?   My cross is empty, as is the tomb and Hades/Paradise -- for Christ Himself overcame the cross and Hades, leading all the faithful into heaven, into Heaven/Paradise.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 John 4-10 - 1

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

Who is Jesus Christ to you and where is He today?  Is He still an infant in the arms of Mary?  Is He a dead body hanging on a cross or crucifix?   What does Scripture tell us about who and where Jesus Christ is right now?

 

 

Well those questions are as about as stupid as they come, I'm not saying
they are the stupidest you have ever came up with but they certainly have

the willful intent of a deranged freaking pagan. Where does the Bible say

St. James is right now. Oh, the bible isn't a newspaper. Well check the

archives.

 

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

Who is Jesus Christ to you and where is He today?  Is He still an infant in the arms of Mary?  Is He a dead body hanging on a cross or crucifix?   What does Scripture tell us about who and where Jesus Christ is right now?

 

Colossians 3:1, "Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."

Luke 22:69, "Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God."

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Romans 8:33-34, "Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?  Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."

 

From this we know that Jesus Christ is NOT still hanging on a cross; that He is in heaven right now, seated at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for all Christian believers.  He is alive and well, at the right hand of God the Father as the ONLY mediator between God and man.

 

Who is the poor soul you still have hanging on a Roman cross?   My cross is empty, as is the tomb and Hades/Paradise -- for Christ Himself overcame the cross and Hades, leading all the faithful into heaven, into Heaven/Paradise.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 John 4-10 - 1

=============================

Only you can find fault with a picture of the crucified Christ.  

quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

Who is Jesus Christ to you and where is He today?  Is He still an infant in the arms of Mary?  Is He a dead body hanging on a cross or crucifix?   What does Scripture tell us about who and where Jesus Christ is right now?

 

Well those questions are as about as stupid as they come, I'm not saying they are the stupidest you have ever came up with but they certainly have the willful intent of a deranged freaking pagan.  Where does the Bible say St. James is right now.  Oh, the bible isn't a newspaper.  Well check the archives.

Hi Vic,

 

This is typical of your inane comments and insane ranting and name calling.   Jesus Christ is the Savior; James is not.   Jesus Christ is our ONLY mediator between God and man; James is not.

 

And, Jesus Christ is alive and sitting at the right hand of God the Father -- in His immortal body. James is in heaven in spirit, like all Christian believers, awaiting his glorified, immortal body at the time of the Rapture.  All believers, including Mary and all the apostles, are in heaven in spirit -- until the time of the Rapture.

 

How do I know this?  The Bible reveals all this to us.  If we could get you to lay aside all your Catechism books and Vatican writings -- and open a Bible; you, too, would know this.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - Read Me

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Hi Smokey,

 

You tell me, "Only you can find fault with a picture of the crucified Christ."

 

First, there is NO PICTURE of Jesus Christ.  Why?  For just this reason; if there were a true picture of Christ -- folks would begin to worship the picture and not the true Christ.  The Roman Catholic church is a perfect example of this -- with all their statues and other icons.

 

Second, I do find fault with those who would falsely represent the Jesus Christ I worship -- the Jesus Christ who is sitting at the right hand of God the Father, our ONLY Mediator between God and man, continually interceding for all believers.

 

My Jesus Christ is alive and well, with God the Father -- not a dead body hanging on a cross, or on a crucifix hanging as a piece of jewelry around someone's neck, or hanging from a rear-view mirror in cars.

 

And, the Jesus Christ I worship is not an infant being held by a statue of Mary.

 

Yes, I find fault with all who would misrepresent my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

 

Which Christ do YOU worship -- the dead one hanging on a cross, crucifix, and rear-view mirror; or the infant held by a ceramic statue?  Or do you worship the Blessed Savior who will come again to Rapture His church from this world?

 

I will always go for the latter.   My cross is empty; as is the tomb.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 John 4-10 - 1

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

You tell me, "Only you can find fault with a picture of the crucified Christ."

 

First, there is NO PICTURE of Jesus Christ.  Why?  For just this reason; if there were a true picture of Christ -- folks would begin to worship the picture and not the true Christ.  The Roman Catholic church is a perfect example of this -- with all their statues and other icons.

 

Second, I do find fault with those who would falsely represent the Jesus Christ I worship -- the Jesus Christ who is sitting at the right hand of God the Father, our ONLY Mediator between God and man, continually interceding for all believers.

 

My Jesus Christ is alive and well, with God the Father -- not a dead body hanging on a cross, or on a crucifix hanging as a piece of jewelry around someone's neck, or hanging from a rear-view mirror in cars.

 

And, the Jesus Christ I worship is not an infant being held by a statue of Mary.

 

Yes, I find fault with all who would misrepresent my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

 

Which Christ do YOU worship -- the dead one hanging on a cross, crucifix, and rear-view mirror; or the infant held by a ceramic statue?  Or do you worship the Blessed Savior who will come again to Rapture His church from this world?

 

I will always go for the latter.   My cross is empty; as is the tomb.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 John 4-10 - 1

=================

Do you have a cross hanging in your home or church? Do you have a picture of Christ hanging in your home or church? 

Do you worships these items? Neither do Catholics. Your repeated and inane  accusations that Catholics worship idols just show your ignorance of the Catholic Church.

 

Infant Jesus being held by a statue of Mary?? Where did that come from? Are that hungry to cast dispersions on the Catholic Church?

Btw.... There are no pictures of Jesus because there were no cameras . You can bet if there were even you would have his photo hanging in your house. 

quote:  Originally Posted by smokey1:
Btw.... There are no pictures of Jesus because there were no cameras.  You can bet if there were even you would have his photo hanging in your house.

Hi Smokey,

 

And, there were no artist back then who could paint a portrait?   There were no sketch artists who could make a charcoal drawing of Him?    Are you sure?

 

Do most churches have a cross in the sanctuary?  Yes.  But, we do not have statues of people and bow to them, kissing their hands and feet, and praying to them.  You see that all the time in Roman Catholic churches.  

 

Yes, the Roman Catholic church has created many "little gods" through their worship of church "Saints" -- even assigning some of the attributes of Jesus Christ, i.e., sinless, emaculate conception, ascension, etc., to mortal human saints.   And, we have even seen photos of the Pople bowing and praying to a statue of Mary.  If that is not worship; what is?

 

As for me and my house, we will worship and serve the Lord -- and Him only (Joshua 24:15).

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Be Still - Know I Am God - 1

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by smokey1:
Btw.... There are no pictures of Jesus because there were no cameras.  You can bet if there were even you would have his photo hanging in your house.

Hi Smokey,

 

And, there were no artist back then who could paint a portrait?   There were no sketch artists who could make a charcoal drawing of Him?    Are you sure?

 

Do most churches have a cross in the sanctuary?  Yes.  But, we do not have statues of people and bow to them, kissing their hands and feet, and praying to them.  You see that all the time in Roman Catholic churches.  

 

Yes, the Roman Catholic church has created many "little gods" through their worship of church "Saints" -- even assigning some of the attributes of Jesus Christ, i.e., sinless, emaculate conception, ascension, etc., to mortal human saints.   And, we have even seen photos of the Pople bowing and praying to a statue of Mary.  If that is not worship; what is?

 

As for me and my house, we will worship and serve the Lord -- and Him only (Joshua 24:15).

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Be Still - Know I Am God - 1

=====================

gray, you make a good argument for the atheists on this forum! You know nothing of the Catholic Church and I don't believe you ever set foot in a Catholic Church like you claim. 

But I guess since no one ever made a charcoal drawing of the Christ he didn't exist??

quote:
Originally Posted by smokey1:
gray, you make a good argument for the atheists on this forum! You know nothing of the Catholic Church and I don't believe you ever set foot in a Catholic Church like you claim.  But I guess since no one ever made a charcoal drawing of the Christ he didn't exist??

Hi Smokey,

 

Your logic and reasoning is almost as childish and inane as Vic's!  Is that now a prerequisite for the Roman Catholic catechism classes?

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

Gimme A Hug

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Hi Dove,

 

The only problem with your childish banter is that your definition of "the Church" and what Jesus Christ calls His church, His body of believers -- is separated by a chasm wider and deeper than that chasm defined in Luke 16:19-31 -- the one which separates Hades/Torment and Hades/Paradise.  Ne'er the two shall meet.

 

If you would like, I can help you find the church which Jesus Christ will Rapture one day.  That is the church you should desire; not a man-made organization which calls itself "the Church."   That church will be greatly shocked on the day He does Rapture His true CHURCH. 

 

But, if you would like to join the real church, I will be happy to help you and to point you to folks who can help you locally.   Think about it!  That is an eternal decision.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

THE REAL CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST!

Acts 2-42 - CICF Church -2

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Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Dove of Peace:

Pray for poor Billie boy.... He will one day be called to answer to a much higher power for his attacks on The Church... 

_______

If that higher power exist, Billy Bob will have to answer for a lot more than just attacks on churches before he's thrown into that fire pit most of you believe in.

===========================

 

Gray has gotten so desperate because of the resistance he meets on this forum he can't help but resort to personal attacks. I wonder if his followers at his church think the same way?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally Posted by smokey1:
gray, you make a good argument for the atheists on this forum! You know nothing of the Catholic Church and I don't believe you ever set foot in a Catholic Church like you claim.  But I guess since no one ever made a charcoal drawing of the Christ he didn't exist??

Hi Smokey,

 

Your logic and reasoning is almost as childish and inane as Vic's!  Is that now a prerequisite for the Roman Catholic catechism classes?

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

Gimme A Hug

=======================

 

Is that the only reply you can come up with? I truly hope the people you go to church with are more tolerant of their Christian brothers and sisters than you are!

Originally Posted by smokey1:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Smokey,

 

Your logic and reasoning is almost as childish and inane as Vic's!  Is that now a prerequisite for the Roman Catholic catechism classes?

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

 

=======================

 

Is that the only reply you can come up with? I truly hope the people you go to church with are more tolerant of their Christian brothers and sisters than you are!

____________________

Actually, he has twelve different replies that he comes up with.  This one happens to be #9.

Funny, in my 20+years in the Catholic Church i have NEVER seen anyone kiss a statue. And I've been in Catholic Churches all over the world- literally. It's just not done. We read the bible, worship the same God, yet you continually find fault with us, or consider us "less than" the perfect Christian such as yourself. May God have mercy on you, you really don't understand anything. Show me a catholic who says he worships anyone but our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. I would like for you to show your post to a catholic priest and ask him to comment on your theories. He will set you straight. None of the lies you state about our faith are true. We do not kiss statues We do not worship statues We do no worship Mary Why don't you study the faith if you wish to feign knowledge of it. Cause right now? Just a bunch of nonsense you're spewing. Educate yourself before you judge, please.
Originally Posted by vplee123:
Funny, in my 20+years in the Catholic Church i have NEVER seen anyone kiss a statue. And I've been in Catholic Churches all over the world- literally. It's just not done. We read the bible, worship the same God, yet you continually find fault with us, or consider us "less than" the perfect Christian such as yourself. May God have mercy on you, you really don't understand anything. Show me a catholic who says he worships anyone but our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. I would like for you to show your post to a catholic priest and ask him to comment on your theories. He will set you straight. None of the lies you state about our faith are true. We do not kiss statues We do not worship statues We do no worship Mary Why don't you study the faith if you wish to feign knowledge of it. Cause right now? Just a bunch of nonsense you're spewing. Educate yourself before you judge, please.

___

Maybe you just did not go to the right places to see Catholics kissing statues:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqEO6afO9TI

 

file:Rome basilica st peter 011c.jpg

http://hif.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter's_Basilica

 

No-one knows how old the statue of St. Peter is. Its feet are worn down from people kissing them.

 

Pore old Peter--had his toes worn down to stubs by all that foot-kissin'!

 

"Saint" James gets his kisses--and hugs as well:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=p4KS2g6AtvwC&pg=RA1-PA19&lpg=RA1-PA19&dq=kissing+statue+of+a+saint&source=bl&ots=4yUV22fhE6&sig=4VBmSYm4mv3bjRFhgwZ_pqY0iTc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XZwGUu_THMOs2QXx-ICoDA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=kissing%20statue%20of%20a%20saint&f=false

 

 

Kissing "Saint" James was temporarily suspended in 2010 to prevent the spread of swine flu:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3250...-saint/#.UgadXdLql2A

Ok contendah- I do stand corrected. However I will maintain that any kissing is not worship, just veneration. There is a big difference. The core tenet of your faith and mine is the same- we worship one God in 3 persons. I do recall veneration at the site of St Peters Basilica - it was a very humbling experience to stand at the place at which he was martyred. It elicited (for me) so much stronger feeling than the Vatican overall- most of it was quite boring, to be honest. The most moving places to me were the site of St Peters "crucifixion" and the tomb of POpe JP2- those were very moving and cathartic. Any way, I do digress.. But, if people show their veneration by kissing, it is not in "everyday" churches- not a normal sight- but when in these Holy places, yeah...I can see it appropriate.

Hi VP,

 

Isn't veneration just a euphemism for worship?   Roman Catholics say they do not "worship" Mary, they only venerate Mary.   Yet, Roman Catholics have promoted Mary to the lofty position of being the Mother of God.  They have declared hers to be only the second immaculate conception in the history of the world; they have declared her to be the second sinless person in the world.  In other words, Roman Catholics have elevated Mary to be on the same level as Jesus Christ, who is God.

 

In other words, if Mary truly was a sinless person -- then Jesus Christ came to earth in a human body and died for no reason.  Mary could have done it -- IF she were the sinless person Roman Catholics claim.

 

Although it is misplaced worship -- that most certainly IS worship of Mary.   And, God tells us that He is the ONLY God; that Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man.  Yet, Roman Catholics have given both titles to Mary.   That, my Friend is worship, albeit, misplaced worship.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Be Still - Know I Am God - 1

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Contendah, if I took the time & wanted to do it, I could name every church there is & find something wrong with all of them. But I don't choose to do that & what would it accomplish if I did?

I have a problem with the OSAS Baptist bunch because they are sending a message out that could cause a lot of people to stumble, because they were told when they get saved, it's forever, which is a lie.

Why does it matter to you if people do kiss a statue? Does it hurt you in any way? It should bother you that the COC teach that they're the only people going to Heaven. You should be concerned about the message your own church is putting out there instead of being concerned about what the Catholic's do or don't do.

For heavens sake- Mary gave birth to Jesus. God is one God in 3 persons- Father, Son (Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit. Therefore if you believe that the father and Son are One, as stated in the bible, it is a reasonable statement to say that Mary is the Mother of God. Do you believe Jesus when He says that He and the Father are one?
Mary being sinless in no way means that she could have redeemed anyone. She needed a redeemer, just like the rest of us! Only God could redeem us! Man offended God, and only God could pay the price! And no, Catholics have not elevated Mary to the same level as God! That is a lie that haters like Bill Gray spread in trying to defame the Church founded by Christ! Catholics honor Mary as a great role model, and as Mother of Jesus, thus we call her Mother of God. In the Catholic Church, we believe that Jesus is God, that Jesus was born in the flesh, and that Mary gave birth to Jesus! Thus Mother of God! We don't worship Mary, or any such lie that Bill tries to foist on people. We didn't make her the Mother of God, god did. We tend to go along with stuff like that we God makes it so! Praised be Jesus forever!

Hi Nathan,

 

You are right!  Mary was born a normal human with the Adamic Sin Nature -- and she died with that same sin nature.  Upon death, she, like ALL believers are freed from the curse brought upon mankind by Adam's disobedience. 

 

There has never been any man or woman born, except Jesus Christ, who was sinless.   Mary was a normal woman, a forgiven sinner, who was blessed to be chosen by God to be the human womb through which the human nature of Jesus Christ would be born.

 

The reason God sent His Son to the the Sacrificial Lamb to die on the cross -- is because God's Perfect Justice demands payment in perfect human blood.  Since there is no other human who could offer his/her blood to appease the wrath of God's Perfect Judgment -- Jesus Christ, the one perfect, sinless man, had to be the sacrifice to "pay in full" the sin debt we owe God.

 

If Mary had been sinless -- she could have been the perfect sacrifice -- and Jesus Christ would not have had to become the perfect, sinless man to die in our place.   Mary, if she were sinless -- could have done that for us.

 

Neither she, nor anyone else can be the Mother of God -- for God, being preexisting could not have a mother.  If God could have a mother, that would be proof that He is not preexisting -- and therefore would not be God.   Common sense tells us this; and the Bible verifies it.

 

It would appear that Roman Catholics are like all other Liberals.  When confronted with a question or an issue for which you have no answer -- go on the attack!  Start calling your questioner a Hater; just as all who oppose Obama are Racists -- and all who oppose Same-Sex Marriage are homophobic.  Well, duh!  

 

Just once I would like to see both Liberals and Roman Catholics directly address an issue instead of crying, "You hate me!  You don't like my religion, my church; so you hate me!"

 

All I can say in reply to that is, "Grow up!"

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible Inspired By God

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Ah, but this is just another case in which you deny the words of our Lord. You deny Him in acknowledging that His mother is the Mother of God- because you deny the premise o te trinity. And you deny His words in reference to the Eucharist. ( which are Crystal clear, clarified and repeated in the Bible). You can't have it both ways- you can't pick and choose which parts of the bible you believe, and those which you refute. Don't you see it? You constantly tell others that the bible is the sole authority. Yet here are 2 very specific instances in which you disregard the word of God. It doesn't fit into your "feel good" theology, so you come up with your own nonsensical explanations so that you don't have to acknowledge your denial of Christ. I feel so sorry for you. I pray your eyes are opened one day... Blessed be God Forever

Hi VP,

 

And, once again you are trying to use a Scripture passage totally unrelated to the Lord's Supper, John 6, to justify your erroneous theology supporting the Eucharist.  The event in John 6 happened months before the final Passover when Christ told us regarding the Communion elements, "do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19).  Notice that, in this correct Scripture passage we are "remembering" Him -- not eating His body.

 

The event in John 6 occurs the day following His feeding of the 5000 on the eastern s****s of the Sea of Galilee.  He left that area and came to Capernaum -- where He is teaching those same people who followed Him, hoping to be given more freebies.

 

He reminds them of how God the Father fed the Israelites in the wilderness with physical food, manna sent from heaven, which could only provide physical food on a daily basis.   And, He compares this with the spiritual food, Himself, which God the Father sent from heaven -- to provide for their spiritual needs forever.   This event, and this teaching, has absolutely nothing to do with the Lord's Supper or Communion.

 

Regarding Mary being the Mother of God; how can a preexisting God have a mother?  Can a God who was never born -- have a mother?  Of course not.   The human nature of Jesus Christ was born of a human womb.  And, Mary, being a very special woman, was chosen to be that human womb through which the human nature of Christ would be born. 

 

If you recall Hebrews 2:17, "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

 

So, His human nature was born of a human womb -- to be like all believers, that He might be our atonement to God the Father.  You keep trying to twist and squeeze the Trinity into this -- which is apples and oranges.  Jesus Christ had both a human nature and a God nature.  The Father has NEVER had a human nature.

 

Yes, God is a Triune God:  Father (spirit only), Son (human and spirit natures), Holy Spirit (spirit only).  Therefore Mary, an ordinary woman chosen by God for this honor, bore Christ's human nature.  Neither the Father, nor the Holy Spirit were ever born of a woman.   Therefore, Mary CANNOT be the Mother of God -- for God has no mother.  He is preexisting, which by its very definition denies His ever being born or created.  No birth, no Mother!   Even a cave man could understand that!

 

Finally, to address your comment, "Bill jut remember when you antagonize a fellow Christian and belittle him or her, you are tearing down the Body of Christ."

 

If you recall the words of Jesus Christ when He addressed Peter:

 

Matthew 16:23 (also Mark 8:33), "But He (Jesus) turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind Me, Satan!  You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's.' "

 

So, since Christ saw no problem with correcting Peter when he spoke wrongly -- how can I be doing wrong to correct others who attempt to speak for, or about, Christ -- and do so using erroneous teachings and doctrines?   Especially when those teachings and doctrines are from man's errroneous theologies -- and not from God's Word?

 

I pray that this help you to better understand that we must stay in God's Word when we develop any theology which is to be shared with others.  If it is in God's Word, it is the Gospel.  If it is from man's word; it is always questionable and most often wrong.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

 

Bible Inspired By God

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi VP,

 

And, once again you are trying to use a Scripture passage totally unrelated to the Lord's Supper, John 6, to justify your erroneous theology supporting the Eucharist.  The event in John 6 happened months before the final Passover when Christ told us regarding the Communion elements, "do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19).  Notice that, in this correct Scripture passage we are "remembering" Him -- not eating His body.

 

And like always billie you are lying. It doesn't matter when Jesus said it,

He was teaching the sacrament of the Eucharist. If you had a hint of

comprehension you would know this and could understand.

 

You are protestant billie, you are made to believe the way you do, but

that's not what the Bible says. Nobody cares what you really believe

but many people care what you lie about, and you lie all the time.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Contendah, if I took the time & wanted to do it, I could name every church there is & find something wrong with all of them. But I don't choose to do that & what would it accomplish if I did?

I have a problem with the OSAS Baptist bunch because they are sending a message out that could cause a lot of people to stumble, because they were told when they get saved, it's forever, which is a lie.

Why does it matter to you if people do kiss a statue? Does it hurt you in any way? It should bother you that the COC teach that they're the only people going to Heaven. You should be concerned about the message your own church is putting out there instead of being concerned about what the Catholic's do or don't do.

___

You should re-read what I posted.  In disputing what vplee said about Catholics kissing the feet of statues, I simply posted information that showed the continuation of this long-standing Catholic practice in two locations.  My point was one of factual correctness, not submitted to criticize the appropriateness of this practice.

 

As to the assertion that the COC teaches that they "are the only people going to heaven," that is a widespread mis-perception.   Those who go to heaven will consist of all those who are obedient to those requirements set forth by scripture as requisite to salvation.  Those who tamper with scripture and omit God-given requirements do so at heir own risk. I have long contended on this forum that baptism for remission of sins is a condition of salvation, since I consider scripture (e.g. Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:1-10) to be clear and authoritative on this point.   That does not constitute the kind of exclusivism of which you write.

Bill erroneously states that sinless = no need for a Redeemer. Mary was sinless, but still needed a redeemer. Only God could re-open the way to heaven. There have been many who died sinless. All needed a redeemer. The Holy Innocents died sinless. They needed a redeemer! John the Baptist was born sinless! He needed a redeemer! It is erroneous to equate sinlessness with not needing a redeemer! And if i call someone a hater, it is because they have worked hard to earn that label. It is not given lightly. But Bill's hatred of the Catholic Church has been well documented here. I reject the label liberal, as i reject the label conservative! I am a Catholic, a member of the Church Jesus founded, and proud of it! Praised be Jesus forever!
Originally Posted by Nathan Evans:
Bill erroneously states that sinless = no need for a Redeemer. Mary was sinless, but still needed a redeemer. Only God could re-open the way to heaven. There have been many who died sinless. All needed a redeemer. The Holy Innocents died sinless. They needed a redeemer! John the Baptist was born sinless! He needed a redeemer! It is erroneous to equate sinlessness with not needing a redeemer! And if i call someone a hater, it is because they have worked hard to earn that label. It is not given lightly. But Bill's hatred of the Catholic Church has been well documented here. I reject the label liberal, as i reject the label conservative! I am a Catholic, a member of the Church Jesus founded, and proud of it! Praised be Jesus forever!

___

Yes, John the Baptist was indeed born sinless, but there is nothing unusual about that, since all newborn babies are born sinless.  Only the corrupt doctrine of "original sin" would brand a newborn baby as a sinner.  All newborn babies are the beneficiaries of "immaculate conception", since all of them are free of sin from conception to birth, notwithstanding the corrupt doctrine of "original sin."  

 

By the way, just how do you, as a Catholic, come to the conclusion that "John the Baptist was"born sinless"?  I have encountered some very unusual doctrines propagated by the Catholic Church, but I never encountered that one. I thought the former virgin Mary was the only human that the Catholic Church considered to have been "born sinless." Please enlighten me on this.

I must correct what i previously posted. All except Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptist were born without sin. Adam and Eve began life without sin. John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but when Elizabeth was "filled with the Holy Spirit" when Mary greeted her, John, who was in Elizabeth's womb, was freed from original sin! What i meant previously is that children may not commit a sin and die before ever committing a sin, but all needed a redeemer! Even Mary needed a redeemer! Only God could redeem us! Ny apologies for my previous error. Praised be Jesus forever!
Originally Posted by Nathan Evans:
I must correct what i previously posted. All except Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptist were born without sin. Adam and Eve began life without sin. John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but when Elizabeth was "filled with the Holy Spirit" when Mary greeted her, John, who was in Elizabeth's womb, was freed from original sin! What i meant previously is that children may not commit a sin and die before ever committing a sin, but all needed a redeemer! Even Mary needed a redeemer! Only God could redeem us! Ny apologies for my previous error. Praised be Jesus forever!

****************

 

Nathan--

 

You need to read what you actually posted in your unsuccessful attempt to say what you meant.  You said precisely THIS:  

 

"All except Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptist were born without sin."  

 

So you have now said, in effect, that Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptistwere born in sin and the remainder of humanity was born sinless.

 

Two views online:

 

From "Catholic Answers" web page:

 

"The belief that John the Baptist was freed from sin in his mother's womb is a pious sentiment that is taken from the scriptural account of the Visitation in Luke 1:41-44 when the Holy Spirit indwells Elizabeth and prompts her baby to recognize the unborn Christ Mary is carrying. It is not an official teaching or doctrine of the Church."

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=2423

 

The online Catholic Encyclopedia, however, has this to say on the matter:

 

<<<Now during the sixth month, the Annunciation had taken place, and, as Mary had heard from the angel the fact of her cousin's conceiving, she went "with haste" to congratulate her. "And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant" — filled, like the mother, with the Holy Ghost — "leaped for joy in her womb", as if to acknowledge the presence of his Lord. Then was accomplished the prophetic utterance of the angel that the child should "be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb". Now as the presence of any sin whatever is incompatible with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the soul, it follows that at this moment John was cleansed from the stain of original sin.>>>

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08486b.htm

 

The Catholic Encyclopedia apparently has the approval of the Catholic Church.  According to the Encyclopedia itself:

 

<<<"The Encyclopedia bears the imprimatur of the Most Reverend Archbishop under whose jurisdiction it is published. In constituting the editors the ecclesiastical censors, he has given them a singular proof of his confidence and of his desire to facilitate the publication of the work which he has promoted most effectively by his influence and kindly cooperation.">>>

 

I am inclined to go with the Encyclopedia in preference to the postings of an individual Catholic on a non-official web site.

 

What shall we say, then, about the BASIS for the Catholic claim that John the Baptist was purged of original sin while still in the womb through the agency of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?

 

That clam rests upon the premise that since "the presence of any sin whatever is incompatible with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the soul, it follows that at this moment  [i.e the moment he was filled with the Holy Ghost] John was cleansed from the stain of original sin. " That, however, is in conflict with the teaching of scripture.  

 

Jesus taught his disciples that the Holy Ghost would dwell in each of them (John  7:38; 14: 16 &17). These were good, but not sinless men.   In Acts 5:32, no less an authority than Peter (listen up, you Catholics!) says the Holy Ghost is given by God "to them that obey Him."

 

If, indeed, "the presence of any sin whatever is incompatible with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the soul", then the moment a person sins, the Holy Ghost would cease to dwell within him.  That scenario clearly would obtain under the concept of the Holy Spirit explicated in the Catholic Encyclopedia.  But how absurd a thing this would be, with the Holy Ghost leaving the soul after the smallest sin, then presumably (a Catholic presumption, not mine) returning immediately following confession and absolution of sins by a priest, only to depart the soul again when the next sin is committed.

 

The Catechism of the Catholic Church., at Part 687, states the following:

 

<<<The Spirit of truth who “unveils” Christ to us “will not speak on his own.”8 Such properly divine self–effacement explains why “the world cannot receive [him], because it neither sees him nor knows him,” while those who believe in Christ know the Spirit because he dwells with them.>>>

 

So, the Holy Spirit dwells in “those who believe in Christ.”  But “those who believe in Christ” are by no means free of “the presence of any sin whatever.” 

 

It follows then, from SCRIPTURE--and seemingly from this element of the catechism, that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within a believer is NOT contingent upon the sinless state of that believer.  Thus, neither was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within John the Baptist contingent upon his being in a sinless state.  But since neither John the Baptist nor any other innocent infant in the womb is in any kind of sinful state, the issue is moot.

 

Conclusion:  John the Baptist had no sin; thus he had no need to be absolved of sin as a prerequisite for, or as a consequence of, receiving the Holy Spirit while in the womb.

 

 
 
 
 

Hi Nathan,

 

Please help me on this.  Will you please give us the Scripture verse or passage where we are told that Mary and John the Baptist were born sinless.  I have searched the Bible for many years -- and I have no idea where that can be found.  I have searched all 66 books of the Bible -- and nothing.

 

So, I will truly appreciate it if you will give me the Scripture verses and why you believe that says what you have suggested.

 

Thank you and God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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