From one of the Foundingest of the Founders

Hi Contendah,

So, my Friend, are you suggesting that we outlaw the Christian faith and all religions?   Or, are you suggesting that we only be allowed to practice our Christian faith in the privacy of our homes, or in dark caves, or hidden away so that no one can see us?

Is that the kind of Christian faith you practice and want all folks to practice?

How do you balance that with Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, and Mark 16:15 where Jesus Christ told all believers in the Great Commission, "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, TEACH them. . . Be My witnesses in ALL the world"?

Should that be outlawed in the perfect America of your vision?

Since I am not ashamed of the Gospel, I vote that all believers should be obedient to the Great Commission which Jesus Christ gave us.   What do you vote for, a Christian faith relegated to the dark caves as in the first century?

By the way, if Jefferson had suggested jumping off a cliff -- would you look for the nearest cliff?

Who do you choose to follow -- the Jefferson you envision, or Jesus Christ?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Even God couldn't have predicted how poorly fundamentalist nut jobs would interpret "The Great Commission" (and everything else - case in point, Bill's interpretation of Contendah's post above), ultimately doing harm to Christianity and mankind. 

Just for the record, Bill, with which part of Contendah's post do you disagree?

Crusty, my Friend,

I don't believe you would recognize the Great Commission if it bit you in the butt! 

And, how is my interpretation doing harm to the Christian faith and mankind -- by wanting to hold people accountable to God and to God's moral values?    My Friend, you have a very funny view of the Christian faith.  But, then, you really haven't spent that much time with it -- so, how could you be familiar?

Bless your secular little heart!

Bill

Bill, I'm not smart enough to see your point of view.  I thought Jefferson meant for government to stay away from and out of religion.

Hi JT,

You tell me, "Bill, I'm not smart enough to see your point of view.   I thought Jefferson meant for government to stay away from and out of religion."

No, that is only the fallacy which has grown up, inspired by secularist, atheists, and liberals -- in an attempt to keep Christian influence out of American politics.

It all comes from a letter Jefferson wrote in response to letter from a group of Baptist pastors in Danbury, Connecticut.  They were concerned that their state was going to impose a state sponsored church, much like England did with their Anglican church -- and wrote to the president sharing their concern.

He responded that this cannot happen in America -- and he used a quote borrowed from another friend about the separation of church and state and linking that to the First Amendment wording.  In his letter to the Danbury Baptists, he wrote:

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.

We read in the article "Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists" posted on the Heritage Foundation web site (http://www.heritage.org/initia...the-danbury-baptists):

In his brief response, President Jefferson sympathized with the Connecticut Baptists in their opposition to the state’s established religion, while expressing his reverence for the First Amendment’s “wall of separation between Church & State” at the federal level.  Jefferson was not advancing the modern view that religion must be excluded from the public square.  After all, he concludes his letter, written in his official capacity as President, with a brief prayer.

The now well-known expression lay dormant for nearly a century and a half until Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black, in the 1947 case Everson v. Board of Education, put forth the novel interpretation that the First Amendment’s establishment clause applied to the states and that any government support or preference for religion amounts to an unconstitutional establishment of religion.  In support of his argument for a radical separation of religion and politics, he cited Jefferson’s metaphor: “[t]he First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable.”

Jefferson’s actual aim was quite to the contrary.  While he, along with James Madison, stoutly opposed established churches as existed in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and other states (while recognizing that, as President, he had to respect them), he was deeply committed to religious liberty.

So, my Friend, neither Jefferson nor any of the founding fathers, with the possible exception of Thomas Paine who was enamored with the French idea of enlightenment bolstered by their revolution -- wanted to keep Christian influence out of America's political or public life.

As a matter of fact, in the early Washington DC, most of the federal buildings were used during the week for government work -- and on Sundays as houses of worship.  That is hardly the act of leadership which wants to ban Christian thinking from the halls of congress and leadership.

The so called "separation of church and state" appears in none of our founding documents, i.e., the Mayflower Compact *(1620), the Declaration of Independence (1776), Articles of Confederation (1778), U.S. Constitution (1787), The Bill of Rights (1791), Amendments to The Constitution, nor The Federalist Papers (All 85 of Them).

It was only found in a personal letter of support written from a sitting president to his constituents.

I pray this helps you better understand the fallacy of "separation of church and state."   And, I pray that you have the insight to realize that a government run by one idea only -- is a dangerous government.

The reason that our founding fathers established a three sided government:  Executive, Legistlative, and Judicial -- is to give balance in the leadership of our nation.   A government run by only one of these would be a total disaster.

By the same token, a government run only by either secularist, or only by Christians -- would be a disaster.   We need the balance of secular thinking balanced by Christian influence in our government -- to give our nation the stability it needs to continue to me a mighty nation.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, you have a lot better typing skills than I do.  It'd take me 3 weeks to type that much.

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The bolded part is what is so scary about theocrats like Bill. He thinks its his job to make people accountable to his god. I am so grateful to our founding fathers for making us safe from the Bills in this country. If we want to continue to be safe from them and not become a country like Iran, then we need to make sure and support our Constitution and sa***uard it against these theocrats.

_____________________

And I doubt, Bill, that you would understand real Christian evangelism if it slapped you in the face.

Your Jesus Loves Me, but Hates Your Guts theology turns people away from Christianity.  You and your ilk have lost more souls than you've gained, and in fact are just narcissistic hucksters.

Would you answer my question now?  Which of Jefferson's quotes do you disagree with?

Bill, you incorrigible theonomist, here is your blithering diatribe of guardhouse lawyer babble, with my responses in blue:

So, my Friend, are you suggesting that we outlaw the Christian faith and all religions?   Or, are you suggesting that we only be allowed to practice our Christian faith in the privacy of our homes, or in dark caves, or hidden away so that no one can see us? Is that the kind of Christian faith you practice and want all folks to practice?

Your question is irrelevant since it is premised on an absurdity.  No one in this country is constrained by law to restrict the practice of his/her faith to "dark caves" (or well-lit ones for that matter) or to the privacy of his/her home.  I argue only that government has no business endorsing any religious belief and that elected officials and other agents of government are constitutionally prohibited from using their authority or the resources of their agencies to promote or endorse sectarian religious beliefs or practices. There are many, many venues within which the Christian faith or other faiths can be practiced, including our homes; those "dark caves" (for Christian spelunkers, one would suppose); designated places of worship such as churches; synagogues, temples and mosques; rented halls; and even public buildings, when the latter are made available on the same terms to such religious organization as may seek  to use them for worship activities.  Religious activities that are permissible on public school (GOVERNMENT) property are described in detail in a very useful publication jointly issued by the ACLU and a group of thirty or so religious organizations.  You need to read it.  It will help you to see the absurdity of some of your assertions about abolition of religion.

.http://www.aclu.org/religion-b...igion-public-schools

How do you balance that with Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, and Mark 16:15 where Jesus Christ told all believers in the Great Commission, "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, TEACH them. . . Be My witnesses in ALL the world"?

There is no need to "balance" the Great Commission by implementing some scheme to co-opt government authority and resources to carry out its mandate. The church and its members, not the government, are tasked with preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Should that be outlawed in the perfect America of your vision?

Another absurd and irrelevant question.  No government has outlawed the preaching of the Great Commission and if you suspect that I believe such activity should be outlawed, Bill, then your are smoking something strange, since there is nothing I have ever posted here or elsewhere that could even remotely justify that conclusion.  You are really stretching, little man! 

Since I am not ashamed of the Gospel, I vote that all believers should be obedient to the Great Commission which Jesus Christ gave us.   What do you vote for, a Christian faith relegated to the dark caves as in the first century?

I would not, under the Constitution of the United States, even be provided the opportunity to vote for such an absurdity. Your question is as irrelevant as anything you have ever posted on this forum, Bill, and that is saying a lot.

By the way, if Jefferson had suggested jumping off a cliff -- would you look for the nearest cliff?

Too silly and puerile to bother responding to.

Who do you choose to follow -- the Jefferson you envision, or Jesus Christ?

I choose Jesus as my Savior and Redeemer and Jefferson and other notable and patriotic Americans as credible experts on the Constitution.  I do not attempt, like you, to blur the differences between the two. 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Contendah, my Friend,

Are you sure you are not Vic in disguise?  Like him, you could not even say "Good day" to anyone without adding some derogatory comment, name, or remark.

I have often heard that folks with low intelligence attempt to make up for that deficit in their speech -- by cursing.  I suppose derogatory comments, names, or remarks can be used in the same manner.

Bless your simple little old heart!

Bill

is it just me... or does bill seem to "rail" against everything he "is"?

The way I see it Crash, maybe bill "isn't."

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Hey, INVICTUS--

Is that really YOU in the icon you are now using?  Is it true that you are the long-separated twin of 

Bill Gray, now admitting your heritage?

I got death threats from the brown skins so I thought gaga might work.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm