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quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Where does the Bible say this exactly? I have never read this verse. I am pretty sure that it would have stuck in my memory had I read it. That sounds like a tradition that Beegee likes.

Hi Neal/Aude,

It is not clear which part of my post you are questioning. Be a wee bit more specific.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You say I should report this to the "Church authorities." My Church Authority already knows -- for it to Him that I speak in all my prayers. You do realize that prayer is merely a conversation with your Best Friend, right? And, that Best Friend should be Jesus Christ; at least, for me it is.

Well howdy, do! >What a novel concept.
You are so self righteous that it actually makes me feel a little bit sorry for you.

I mean, really. Why are you wasting your time preaching to people in the Bible Belt, in which you no longer live? Just curious¡ couldn´t your friends in Californication be open to your nonsense?
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
You say I should report this to the "Church authorities." My Church Authority already knows -- for it to Him that I speak in all my prayers. You do realize that prayer is merely a conversation with your Best Friend, right? And, that Best Friend should be Jesus Christ; at least, for me it is.

Well howdy, do! What a novel concept. You are so self righteous that it actually makes me feel a little bit sorry for you. I mean, really. Why are you wasting your time preaching to people in the Bible Belt, in which you no longer live? Just curious¡ couldn´t your friends in Californication be open to your nonsense?

Hi VP,

Praying to Jesus Christ is a novel concept to you? And you think I need prayer! Wow!

VP, Alabama is my home -- and I am proud to be communicating with my home town Friends. Where is your home?

Yep, prayer is just having a conversation with my best Friend, Jesus Christ -- and I do it often. You really should try it -- no prayer book needed, no beads or any other props needed. Just talk with Him like you would any other Friend; except this one is very special. And, He is always willing to listen; never too busy.

And, I do share with folks in California -- and with folks around the world through my Friends Ministry Christian eNewsletter. Would you like to join us? I'll be happy to add you to my e-mail list.

If you ever get to California, you can join us at a Bible study and I will introduce you to God's Word, the Bible. You'll find that it is an amazing book, very powerful -- and every time you study it, you learn something new, something exciting, something eternally rewarding.

But, I have to warn you -- we pray to Jesus Christ there, also. Even if it is a novel concept.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You want to be a preaching brother? Newsletters and forums ain't gonna cut it, brother. Take it to the streets. Preach
Tribulation in the Lutheran Church's next church supper. Preach the Rapture at the meth houses for which your region is so famous and see how they react. Go to UCLA with a bullhorn. Be sure to add in "The President is a Muslim born in Kenya and a Socialist Fascist Communist!"

Better yet, feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick, take a personality suppressant first and then if they ask you why, tell them you are doing this in the name of Christ.

Lord God, Almighty, mayest thou open the eyes of the King of England those long on words and short on action!
Bill Gray or any other "Young Earth" advocate, tell me this--The Bible says, in Genesis 1, that "the earth was without form and void." How long do you believe it was in that state (whatever thst state was) and is it just a tiny bit possible that it was in that state long enough to make the earth a heckuva lot more than a few thousand years old?
Prove sola scriptura using the Bible, Billy. Why you will have to lose over half your vocabulary: "sinner's prayer," "eternal security," and my favorite, "Personal Savior." What does Personal Savior even mean? Do we not normally term Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ precisely that? Not My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," which sounds mighty selfish to me, much as the curious Rapture dogma does.

If it makes the Prissy Radical Protestants who cannot take a normative reading of the Holy Bible uncomfortable, then I am all for it. Too bad they cannot read a work in toto or with any form other than those of a parrot.

In other words, prophecy is not fortune telling!
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
That is not sola scriptura, sola scriptura is a portion of theology to which many claim, but few achieve. That is a verse that extols Holy Scripture as worthy of reading and of inspiration. There is a huge difference.

Hi Neal/Aude,

We read, in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

What does this tell us? First, that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God. I see no mention of ALL TRADITION, nor of ALL PRAYER BOOK, nor of ALL RITUALS --- being inspired by God. But, it definitely tells us that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired, i.e., authored, by God.

Now, I wonder why He only authored the Scripture -- and nothing else? Do you suppose it is because He knows that Scripture is "all sufficient" to accomplish His goals for man -- that man may be adequate and equipped for every good work? Sounds logical to me. And, it IS what He tells us in 2 Timothy 3:17. I take what He tells us to be the Truth.

I think it is quite obvious that, if God had felt that we needed more teachings, i.e, traditions, rituals, prayer books -- He would have provided them. Don't you agree? After all, He is God -- and He does know exactly what is required for man.

So, yes, I do believe that this Scripture passage does indeed teach Sola Scriptura -- by Scripture Alone!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Too bad you do not practice it. Oh, wait, you do, the Old Testament version of sola scriptura when it suits you and then switch to the New when that does.

How can you say that this is sola scriptura? The only scriptures that then existed were the Old Testament, and using a verse from a work that then claims to be inspired is rather odd as evidence in a logical sense, rather like saying "See, I said I could do no wrong, therefore I cannot." The Bible was not the Bible until people said it was. It did not fall from the sky clad in black pleather and translated into Jacobean English. Frankly, biblical authority is based on tradition and reason years ago. They found various texts floating around, collated them, and agreed on which ones were genuine and worth including in one edition and which were not. You cannot deny it. It is history.

What the verse says is not sola scriptura. Your claims do not make it such.
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Prove sola scriptura using the Bible, Billy. Why you will have to lose over half your vocabulary: "sinner's prayer," "eternal security," and my favorite, "Personal Savior." What does Personal Savior even mean? Do we not normally term Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ precisely that? Not My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," which sounds mighty selfish to me, much as the curious Rapture dogma does.

If it makes the Prissy Radical Protestants who cannot take a normative reading of the Holy Bible uncomfortable, then I am all for it. Too bad they cannot read a work in toto or with any form other than those of a parrot.

In other words, prophecy is not fortune telling!


One might reasonably conclude that "personal Savior" would be the opposite of "impersonal Savior," which sort of begs the question. If Christ is my Savior, how can he be anything but a "personal Savior." If He is "Savior," why try to embellish that exalted term with ANY adjective?

As to "sinner's prayer," that is the prime example I see of Bill's departure from any kind of sola scriptura. Neither the term nor any concept like it is found anywhere in scripture. If anyone disputes that, then I invite him or her to put up the goods. Show me where any person anywhere in scripture was told to say a "sinner's prayer," of the standard model proffered by certain evangelicals, as the kind of entreaty one must make to God in order to have forgiveness and salvation. Look through all the accounts of lost men and women being saved in the book of Acts and you will find there nothing even remotely resembling the "sinner's prayer." The first Christians ever were those who heard that great sermon by Peter in Acts 2 and who were
"*****ed in their hearts" and cried out "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" These were lost, convicted sinners. Did that apostle tell them to "say the sinner's prayer" or anything remotely like that? No way Jose'! He told them to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins!" Would they have been saved if they had not obeyed the command to repent? Of course not. Would they have been saved if they had not obeyed the command to be baptized? Of course not!

Did Paul say "the sinner's prayer" when he was encountered by the Lord on the road to Damascus? Was he told to pray? Uh-uh! He was told to go into the city of Damascus where "it will be told thee what thou must do." He was to find someone who would tell him
"what thou must do". Oh! Then he must not have been saved on the road to Damascus; there was something else that he "MUST DO."What remained for Paul to do? Was he lacking in that he had failed to say the "sinner's prayer?" Did God's appointed man, Ananias, tell Paul to say ANY prayer? Nope!
He told him to do the same thing Peter told those anguished Pentecostians to do. He told him to be baptized and he told him why he should be baptized. Acts 22:16: "And now, why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." No "sinner's prayer" there. Not in the scriptures I read.

Sola scriptura, Bill? Where, in your concept of "sola scriptura, do you find that "sinner's prayer?" Paul was saved without saying a "sinner's prayer." The 3000 at Pentecost were saved without it. There is no record of a "sinner's prayer" in the accounts of the conversion of Cornelius, of Lydia, of the Philippian jailer, of the converts at Athens, at Ephesus, at Corinth. Look all you will, Bill (and other adherents to the "sinner's prayer" counterfeit scheme of salvation), you will not find anyone, anywhere in the New Testament being told to say that ole "sinner's prayer" so widely enjoined upon the lost in our time. You will not find it, because it is not there; it is an extra-scriptural concept, a non-scriptural concept, a fabrication conceived by those who truncate and distort the salvation-by-faith concept to exclude from it the true meaning of faith. Thayer, the most notable of Greek scholars,defines the term "faith", in the koine Greek ("pisteuo") to include obedience when saving faith is under consideration: "a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah--the divinely appointed author of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, conjoined with obedience to Christ." That obedience clearly includes baptism, as amply demonstrated throughout that book of conversions we call the Acts of the Apostles and as beautifully explicated in the first several verses of Romans 6. It nowhere includes that so-called "sinner's prayer," which unscripturally posits that baptism is not part of salvation.

Now--as to "Church Fathers"--a topic recently discussed here, I find it instructive to read what some of them have to say on major topics of their time. Justin Martyr, about 40 years after the death of the Apostle John, wrote to the Emperor Antoninus Pius, explaining some of the practices of the Christians in that very early time in the existence of the church. Among other things Justin Martyr wrote this:

"Then we bring them to some place where there is water, and they are regenerated by the same way of regeneration by which we were regenerated, for they are washed in water in the name of God the Father and Lord of all things, and of our Savior Jesus Christ and of the Holy Spirit; for Christ says, Unless you be regenerated you can not enter the kingdom of heaven; and everyone knows it is impossible for those who are once generated to enter again into their mother's womb." Clearly, Justin Martyr was alluding to the teaching of Jesus in John 3, where He taught that a man must be "born of water and of the Spirit." Justin Martyr clearly believed that the "water" of the new birth (or regeneration) was the water of baptism. In the writings of the early church Fathers, the concept of being "born again" or "regeneration" is never discussed except within the context of baptism. It took over a thousand years and a Calvin and a Zwingli to warp the concept of the new birth into a distortion that excluded baptism as an essential for salvation.

And that concept of "regeneration" embraced by the apostles of Jesus Christ and by the early church Fathers was not some notion that there was something magical in the water itself. In their concept of the new birth, they understood that baptism was that act of faith that accepted God's plan for the place and event where the sinner is promised the salvific benefits of the blood of Christ. "Therefore we are buried with him in baptism unto death; that like as Christ was raised up by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."(Rom. 6:4) That walk in newness of life comes after baptism, not before, as clearly taught here.
Last edited by beternU
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Too bad you do not practice it. Oh, wait, you do, the Old Testament version of sola scriptura when it suits you and then switch to the New when that does.

How can you say that this is sola scriptura? The only scriptures that then existed were the Old Testament, and using a verse from a work that then claims to be inspired is rather odd as evidence in a logical sense, rather like saying "See, I said I could do no wrong, therefore I cannot." The Bible was not the Bible until people said it was. It did not fall from the sky clad in black pleather and translated into Jacobean English. Frankly, biblical authority is based on tradition and reason years ago. They found various texts floating around, collated them, and agreed on which ones were genuine and worth including in one edition and which were not. You cannot deny it. It is history.

What the verse says is not sola scriptura. Your claims do not make it such.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
And Al... I'm not an Atheist, I'm not going to your hell, whatever that is, and you can lead/follow/or get the righteous heck outta the way.

Hi Puppy,

You may not be an atheist -- but, you do the best imitation I have seen in a long time.

You are not going to the hell which Albert mentions? Since there is only one hell -- where have you made your reservations?

You can call it whatever you want -- but be sure to take your hot weather clothing along.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill



Two words, Fundie. "Bite me."

That's right. Down on all fours and MUNCH AWAY...


All this noise you make about only God can judge... Who are you to judge in his place? Hypocrite.
It's YOUR Hell...YOU burn in it.
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
And Al... I'm not an Atheist, I'm not going to your hell, whatever that is, and you can lead/follow/or get the righteous heck outta the way.

Hi Puppy,

You may not be an atheist -- but, you do the best imitation I have seen in a long time.

You are not going to the hell which Albert mentions? Since there is only one hell -- where have you made your reservations?

You can call it whatever you want -- but be sure to take your hot weather clothing along.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

Two words, Fundie. "Bite me." That's right. Down on all fours and MUNCH AWAY...

All this noise you make about only God can judge... Who are you to judge in his place? Hypocrite. It's YOUR Hell...YOU burn in it.

Hi Puppy,

Thank you! Now, that is exactly the kind of response and the level of intelligence I have come to expect from secularist and atheist. Thank you for confirming this for everyone.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
You can call it whatever you want -- but be sure to take your hot weather clothing along.


And that, Mr. Gray, is HATEFUL. You bring out the worst in people.
I would like to apologize to Road Puppy on behalf of all Christians. This is NOT what we are called to be, and please take heart- Mr Gray does not represent all Christians.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And Al... I'm not an Atheist, I'm not going to your hell, whatever that is, and you can lead/follow/or get the righteous heck outta the way.

Hi Puppy, You may not be an atheist -- but, you do the best imitation I have seen in a long time.

You are not going to the hell which Albert mentions? Since there is only one hell -- where have you made your reservations?

You can call it whatever you want -- but be sure to take your hot weather clothing along.

And that, Mr. Gray, is HATEFUL. You bring out the worst in people. I would like to apologize to Road Puppy on behalf of all Christians. This is NOT what we are called to be, and please take heart- Mr Gray does not represent all Christians.

Hi VP,

Please tell me what is wrong when Puppy tells us he does not believe in the hell Albert told him about -- and, I suggest that, since he does not believe in hell -- he should be prepared with hot weather clothing -- just in case.

You pick a few words out of a comment or dialogue and try to spin it -- makes me wonder, are you a Liberal Democrat? If not, you have learned well from them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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