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An arrest was made Monday, but authorities said it involved a person who was interfering with the investigation. Here, authorities escort buses carrying people from the compound, which is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, on Friday.


Details of Sect Life Emerge After Raid.

ELDORADO, Texas (April 8) - Until the raid on their compound last week, the woman and girls of the Yearning for Zion Ranch spent their days caring for its many children, tilling gardens, and quilting, dressed in pioneer-style dresses sewn by their own hands.


But it was no idyllic recreation of 19th-century prairie life, authorities say. Since last week, they have interviewed members of the polygamist sect looking for evidence that that girls younger than 16 were forced into marriages with older men.

Five miles off the highway, beyond a double gate, the group's members live lives that are isolated even for the scruffy West Texas prairie. Their 1,700-acre ranch is like its own city, with a gleaming temple, doctor's office, school and even factories.

"Once you go into the compound, you don't ever leave it," said Carolyn Jessop, who was one of the wives of the alleged leader of the Eldorado complex, but who left the sect before it began moving to Texas in 2004.

By Monday, state authorities had taken legal custody of 401 children, saying they had been harmed or were in imminent danger of harm.

The raid on the compound founded by jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs started with a call from a 16-year-old who alleged abuse.

Authorities were looking for evidence that the girl, who allegedly gave birth at 15, was married to a 50-year-old, and for records related to other mothers aged 17 and younger. Even with their parents' permission, Texas law forbids girls younger than 16 to marry.

Some 133 women left the ranch voluntarily with the children and were being housed at a historic fort here while authorities conduct interviews. Dressed in ankle-length dresses with their hair pinned up in braids, the women milled about Monday as the children played on the fort's old parade grounds.

State troopers were holding an unknown number of men in the compound until investigators finished executing a house-to-house search of the ranch, which includes a cheese-making plant, a cement plant and several large housing units. They initially had difficulty getting access to the 80-foot white limestone temple that rises out of the brown scrub, but were searching it Monday.

Jessop, author of the polygamy memoir "Escape," said the women dedicated so much time to raising children and their chores because the community emphasized self-sufficiency: Members believe the apocalypse is near, and they will have to start over when the world is destroyed.

They were not allowed to wear red — the color Jeffs said belonged to Jesus — and were not allowed to cut their hair.

They "were born into this," said Jessop, 40. "They have no concept of mainstream society, and their mothers were born into and have no concept of mainstream culture. Their grandmothers were born into it."

Children's Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said each child will get an advocate and an attorney. But she said they would have a tough time adjusting to modern life if they are permanently separated from their families.

Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Public Safety, said the criminal investigation was still under way, and that charges would be filed if investigators determined children were abused.

Still uncertain is the location of the girl whose call initiated the raid. Authorities were looking for documents, family photos or even a family Bible with lists of marriages and children to determine whether the girl was married to convicted sex offender Dale Barlow.

Barlow was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.

Authorities hoped to determine whether the teenager was among the church members being interviewed at Fort Concho, a 150-year-old fort built to protect frontier settlements.

Attorneys for the church and church leaders filed motions asking a judge to quash the search on constitutional grounds, saying state authorities didn't have enough evidence and that the warrants were too broad. A hearing on their motion was scheduled for Wednesday in San Angelo.

"The chief concern for everyone at this point is the welfare of the women and children," said FLDS attorneys Patrick Peranteau. He declined further comment before Wednesday's hearing.

State troopers arrested one man on a misdemeanor charge of interfering with the duties of a public servant during the search warrant, Mange said.

"For the most part, residents at the ranch have been cooperative. However, because of some of the diplomatic efforts in regards to the residents, the process of serving the search warrants is taking longer than usual," said DPS spokesman Tom Vinger.

Attorneys for the church and church leaders said Barlow was in Colorado City, Ariz., and had been in contact with law enforcement officials there. Telephone messages left by The Associated Press for Colorado City authorities were not immediately returned Monday.

The FLDS church, headed by Jeffs after his father's death in 2002, broke away from the Mormon church after the latter disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

The group is concentrated along the Arizona-Utah line but several enclaves have been built elsewhere, including in Texas. In 2003, the church paid $700,000 for the Eldorado property, a former exotic animal ranch, and began building the compound as authorities in Arizona and Utah began increasingly scrutinizing the group.

Only the 80-foot-high white temple can be seen from Eldorado, a town of fewer than 2,000 surrounded by sheep ranches nearly 200 miles northwest of San Antonio.

Jeffs is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., where he awaits trial for four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

In November, he was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.

The investigation prompted by the girl's call last week was the first in Texas involving the sect.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerg...20080404201909990001
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The sad thing about this is that the authorities had to have known a lot about the oppressive and sick goings-on at that compound well before they took any action. The practice in the American Southwest of looking the other way relative to these polygamous societies is based more on politics than on concern for the well being of the children and teenagers who are the victims of this absurd lifestyle. The typical polygamous community is controlled by horny middle-aged and older men who take complete authoritarian control of the women and children under some kind of religious rubric. By isolating their concubines and multiple children from the rest of society, they effectively establish a slave-like subservience. It is high time someone took an initiative to expose and hopefully to punish these apparent rapists and slavemasters. The shame of it all is that by long delay they have allowed all too many lives of children to be contorted into the cramped and narrow dimensions of the cultic system that they will now (hopefully) escape only with a great deal of trauma in the transition.
quote:
Originally posted by tnt5862:
Here is some pics of the compound . How can they be so out of tune with the outside world .Look at what all they have there .I just dont see how any woman could go for such bull crap ,nor put her child up for the same thing ?

I wonder if Marie Osmond belongs to the same kind of thinking church ? lmao


http://www.childbrides.org/photos.html


I'll say this for the varmints that run that place. They sure don't waste any water on irrigation in that dry climate. The areas surrounding the building sites seem to be mostly bare dirt. Their garden seems pretty lush, so they must be irrigating it. It is indeed astonishing that the oppressive and illegal activity that has apparently gone on there for years--if not decades--is only just now being investigated and (hopefully)remediated
by the local and state authorities.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by tnt5862:
Here is some pics of the compound . How can they be so out of tune with the outside world .Look at what all they have there .I just dont see how any woman could go for such bull crap ,nor put her child up for the same thing ?

I wonder if Marie Osmond belongs to the same kind of thinking church ? lmao


http://www.childbrides.org/photos.html


I'll say this for the varmints that run that place. They sure don't waste any water on irrigation in that dry climate. The areas surrounding the building sites seem to be mostly bare dirt. Their garden seems pretty lush, so they must be irrigating it. It is indeed astonishing that the oppressive and illegal activity that has apparently gone on there for years--if not decades--is only just now being investigated and (hopefully)remediated
by the local and state authorities.


Not to mention the Welfare fraud , birth defects,incest ,statutory rape, physical and emotional abuse , militant org. and all in the name of God ? They are sick for sure .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_J...of_Latter_Day_Saints
I in no way condone polygamy or 50 year olds marrying 16 year olds, but this case concerns me from a constitutional, 4th amendment perspective.

If any attorneys are here, can you explain to me how the feds can legally raid private property based on an anonymous phone call? I assume the call would warrant "probable cause" from a Judge, I understand that. But the concerning part is that the girl who reportedly called has not been identified.

Here's an analogy: Let's say the police suspected someone of dealing drugs from home but haven't found probable cause or a way to legally make an arrest. Suddenly, they receive an anonymous phone call from someone else living in the house, so they obtain a warrant. Once they get there, the "caller" is not to be found. Even though drugs were indeed found in the house, would the case be valid since the evidence was obtained in a questionable manner? Wouldn't this fact that the caller can't be found force the judge to throw the case out once brought to trial?

Murderers have gone free because of the police tampering with evidence or obtaining evidence in illegal ways (even when everyone knew the perp was guilty). Yeah, it's always unfortunate that this happens, but without constitutional protections such as this, the police could manufacture evidence for any reason they like.

I think the radical LDS sects are nut jobs, but they do have a right to practice their religion, live in compounds, wear 17th century clothing and be uneducated if they so desire (assuming no laws are broken). If children are being abused (and I'm sure they are), I think the Police need more than an anonymous phone call in order to investigate. I am no attorney, but it seems to me this case began under suspicious circumstances.

So here's my question: If police discover plenty of evidence once a raid is undertaken, would the case hold up in court if the warrant for the raid was found not to meet legal criteria?
quote:
ELDORADO, Texas (April 8) - Until the raid on their compound last week, the woman and girls of the Yearning for Zion Ranch spent their days caring for its many children, tilling gardens, and quilting, dressed in pioneer-style dresses sewn by their own hands.


and

quote:
Dressed in ankle-length dresses with their hair pinned up in braids, the women milled about Monday as the children played on the fort's old parade grounds.


Sounds a lot like the Mennonites and Amish, doesn't it? When will the feds decide that living without electricity constitutes abuse? Again, I am not condoning polygamy or child abuse, but it seems society may be on a slippery slope in persecuting any "weird" religion just because they are weird. Waco, Texas was perhaps the first illustration of that. Dozens of children burned to death all because Koresh had a sawed off shotgun.
quote:
Originally posted by SittinPurdy:
quote:
ELDORADO, Texas (April 8) - Until the raid on their compound last week, the woman and girls of the Yearning for Zion Ranch spent their days caring for its many children, tilling gardens, and quilting, dressed in pioneer-style dresses sewn by their own hands.


and

quote:
Dressed in ankle-length dresses with their hair pinned up in braids, the women milled about Monday as the children played on the fort's old parade grounds.


Sounds a lot like the Mennonites and Amish, doesn't it? When will the feds decide that living without electricity constitutes abuse? Again, I am not condoning polygamy or child abuse, but it seems society may be on a slippery slope in persecuting any "weird" religion just because they are weird. Waco, Texas was perhaps the first illustration of that. Dozens of children burned to death all because Koresh had a sawed off shotgun.



Ive never heard of this crap from the Amish. And doing without electricy is not the issues here ,its the preverted men that cant be satisfied with one woman . And then they want the little girls too? Just sickening . Mad
I wonder how long it will take to un-brainwash them. They know nothing but this life - article says they were born into it. I am incredibly proud of the brave young girl or girls that reported this. They've hopefully saved the rest of the girls from the same fate. Can you imagine how much courage that took considering what they were born into?

I agree, zip, regarding the Amish.
No one has addressed my question. All I get are "the Amish are good" and "the LDS is bad" type of statements. I don't disagree with that, but that's not the issue.

The issue is whether the feds can raid private property based on anonymous phone calls, especially when the caller cannot be identified after the raid. If the authorities can raid based on such scant probable cause, then this means I can call the cops anonymously and erroneously report that Joy is holding children in her basement. Next thing she knows the Police are busting down her door. Yes, Police must take such calls seriously and they do have an obligation to visit the property and "knock on the door" so to speak, but that and an all out raid are two different things.

I am assuming, of course, that the feds are going only on this phone call and didn't have other corroborating evidence before the raid.
This is the latest I could find on MSNBC.com...

The 16-year-old girl whose call triggered the police raid on a polygamist sect's Texas compound said that her husband beat her, according to court documents.

The San Angelo Standard-Times newspaper cited court documents that also said the girl was the seventh wife of a sect member who is named in an arrest warrant on possible abuse charges.

The girl told authorities at a family violence shelter that her husband hit her in the chest and choked her while another woman held her infant child at the sect's Yearn for Zion Ranch, the newspaper reported.


Doesn't sound like the police JUST used an anonymous phone call. It sounds like the phone call that started the whole thing was initiated by the shelter and it sounds like her identity is being protected because she is a victim of abuse AND a minor.
I TOTALLY agree with you Joy. I hope that special place is right next door to the special place in hell that I know is reserved for those who abuse poor little animals.

It really does take an evil heart to do either...both groups are basically defenseless and helpless to stop the abuse and probably have no earthly idea why this sort of horribly thing is happening to them.

I just hope this is something that the authorities don't botch in some stupid way so that there aren't ANY loopholes that could unleash these so-called men back on society again.
quote:
Originally posted by tnt5862:
Here is some pics of the compound . How can they be so out of tune with the outside world .Look at what all they have there .I just dont see how any woman could go for such bull crap ,nor put her child up for the same thing ?

I wonder if Marie Osmond belongs to the same kind of thinking church ? lmao


http://www.childbrides.org/photos.html


Gee, really funny that months ago when this subject came up in the context of Mitt Romney lying about what his religion believes about polygamy, so many people here jumped in with "how does polygamy affect the Shoals? It's not our business." or "People should mind their own business, who do those people hurt?" My statement was simply that child abuse is everybody's business and polygamy is and always has been nothing but that. I'm glad to see people come around and state that this IS abuse of women and children. I'm SO glad to see the state of Texas step in and do what Utah and Arizona would not. The Texas compound is only a few years old. They are mostly transplants from the Utah/Arizona border. I think they underestimated Texas because Utah/Arizona turned a blind eye to it for so many years because so many people in those states get queezy at the thought of the government raiding a polygamous conclave.

That's because, despite the erroneous news reports that state the mainstream LDS church "disavowed" polygamy in 1890, the fact is that they have NEVER "disavowed" it. It is still Mormon doctrine, it is still in the Mormon scriptures, it is still taught as the order of heaven, and Mormons still worship and praise the pervert who started the whole thing for both the mainstream church and the fundamentalist Mormons. The mainstream church (yes, the one Marie Osmond believes in) only "discontinued" (for now) the practice of polygamy. But they love to tell everyone that they have nothing to do with it and excommunicate anyone who practices it. We were always taught that polygamy would be re-instituted before the "Millinneum," the 1000 years when Christ would take over the helm of his church (the Mormon church) and live on Earth to help Mormons finish the work of getting all people who ever lived on the earth baptized into the Mormon Church, thus ushering in the end of time and the renewal of the Earth, when it would be turned into heaven.

So we, as Mormons, had polygamous ancestors who went to prison for their beliefs in the 19th century (Mitt Romney's 3rd GGF was one of the most notorious polygamists in Mormon history), we still praised the man who brought polygamy (celestial marriage) back to the Earth, still believed we'd be in polygamous relationships if we made it to the highest degree of heaven, still let men be "sealed" to more than one woman in Mormon temples, and couldn't quite square that up with raiding and arresting people who were still practicing it after God changed his mind and said to stop it for awhile. The majority of politicians in Utah and a high number in Arizona are Mormon, so they just kept a hands off/turn a blind eye approach. Texas, on the other hand, doesn't take it's orders from a bunch of old geezers in Salt Lake City and decided to do the right thing.

Yes, it's sad to see those women and children who have been brainwashed so badly and know nothing else being ripped away from their homes and possibly their children. But it has to stop somewhere. The cycle of abuse needs to be broken. Why do you hear very little about teenaged boys being rounded up in the Texas conclave? That's another whole story. One of my good friends was kicked out of the Utah/Arizona conclave as a teenager (do the math, they have to thin out the number of boys). Here's a good article about what happens to them:

http://media.www.slccglobelink.com/media/storage/paper4....George-958622.shtml

As far as the Texas compound, it sounds like they were shipping the teenaged boys back to Utah and shipping fresh girls out to Texas because that's where the patriarchs had moved to. SICK. Our illustrious first Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, who an angel threatened with a flaming sword if he didn't institute polygamy, would send guys on missions to Europe and then "spiritually" marry their wives while they were gone. Sounds like these FLDS guys are at least true to the beloved Joe Smith. Yes, the mainstream church is complicit in the polygamy problem in the U.S. If you believe them when they say they have nothing to do with it, I've got some property in Florida to sell you.
There's nothing really fundamentally wrong with polygamy, if you're crazy enough to want two (or more) wives. It's simply against our culture, but other cultures seem to do all right with it. It's typically of the one man-many wives configuration but that (anthropologically) is to identify paternity. What's strange and twisted about this polygamist cult is the forced marriage of underage girls to men to whom they are related. The poor girls are simply ill-equipped to make a rational choice in the matter.

While it's not for me, I'm sure there are plenty of adults capable of making a decision to share a wife or a husband with others. Too outlandish? Maybe not; as I said earlier, gay marriage was a subject for jokes and ridicule a couple dozen years ago. Who can say that multiple-partner marriage (of any configuration) will not be the next cause for the whacko movement?
quote:
Originally posted by Rhiannon:
quote:
Originally posted by tnt5862:
Here is some pics of the compound . How can they be so out of tune with the outside world .Look at what all they have there .I just dont see how any woman could go for such bull crap ,nor put her child up for the same thing ?

I wonder if Marie Osmond belongs to the same kind of thinking church ? lmao


http://www.childbrides.org/photos.html


Gee, really funny that months ago when this subject came up in the context of Mitt Romney lying about what his religion believes about polygamy, so many people here jumped in with "how does polygamy affect the Shoals? It's not our business." or "People should mind their own business, who do those people hurt?" My statement was simply that child abuse is everybody's business and polygamy is and always has been nothing but that. I'm glad to see people come around and state that this IS abuse of women and children. I'm SO glad to see the state of Texas step in and do what Utah and Arizona would not. The Texas compound is only a few years old. They are mostly transplants from the Utah/Arizona border. I think they underestimated Texas because Utah/Arizona turned a blind eye to it for so many years because so many people in those states get queezy at the thought of the government raiding a polygamous conclave.

That's because, despite the erroneous news reports that state the mainstream LDS church "disavowed" polygamy in 1890, the fact is that they have NEVER "disavowed" it. It is still Mormon doctrine, it is still in the Mormon scriptures, it is still taught as the order of heaven, and Mormons still worship and praise the pervert who started the whole thing for both the mainstream church and the fundamentalist Mormons. The mainstream church (yes, the one Marie Osmond believes in) only "discontinued" (for now) the practice of polygamy. But they love to tell everyone that they have nothing to do with it and excommunicate anyone who practices it. We were always taught that polygamy would be re-instituted before the "Millinneum," the 1000 years when Christ would take over the helm of his church (the Mormon church) and live on Earth to help Mormons finish the work of getting all people who ever lived on the earth baptized into the Mormon Church, thus ushering in the end of time and the renewal of the Earth, when it would be turned into heaven.

So we, as Mormons, had polygamous ancestors who went to prison for their beliefs in the 19th century (Mitt Romney's 3rd GGF was one of the most notorious polygamists in Mormon history), we still praised the man who brought polygamy (celestial marriage) back to the Earth, still believed we'd be in polygamous relationships if we made it to the highest degree of heaven, still let men be "sealed" to more than one woman in Mormon temples, and couldn't quite square that up with raiding and arresting people who were still practicing it after God changed his mind and said to stop it for awhile. The majority of politicians in Utah and a high number in Arizona are Mormon, so they just kept a hands off/turn a blind eye approach. Texas, on the other hand, doesn't take it's orders from a bunch of old geezers in Salt Lake City and decided to do the right thing.

Yes, it's sad to see those women and children who have been brainwashed so badly and know nothing else being ripped away from their homes and possibly their children. But it has to stop somewhere. The cycle of abuse needs to be broken. Why do you hear very little about teenaged boys being rounded up in the Texas conclave? That's another whole story. One of my good friends was kicked out of the Utah/Arizona conclave as a teenager (do the math, they have to thin out the number of boys). Here's a good article about what happens to them:

http://media.www.slccglobelink.com/media/storage/paper4....George-958622.shtml

As far as the Texas compound, it sounds like they were shipping the teenaged boys back to Utah and shipping fresh girls out to Texas because that's where the patriarchs had moved to. SICK. Our illustrious first Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, who an angel threatened with a flaming sword if he didn't institute polygamy, would send guys on missions to Europe and then "spiritually" marry their wives while they were gone. Sounds like these FLDS guys are at least true to the beloved Joe Smith. Yes, the mainstream church is complicit in the polygamy problem in the U.S. If you believe them when they say they have nothing to do with it, I've got some property in Florida to sell you.


Rhiannon - Sounds like maybe you WERE a Mormon but have since stopped being one???
quote:
Originally posted by Top Down Beemer:

Rhiannon - Sounds like maybe you WERE a Mormon but have since stopped being one???


Yes, I WAS a Mormon --a born and bred true-blue believer for most of my life. I resigned my membership 7 years ago and pretty much my entire extended family (and it's a big Mormon family) has disowned me. But luckily my immediate family (my children on down) have also found their way out of the cult and we are all trying to build authentic lives for ourselves now. Not always so easy when you never had to think for yourself in your entire life. There's a couplet in Mormon culture, "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done."

It's bad enough trying to think for yourself when you've been raised in mainstream Mormon culture, it's almost impossible in fundamentalist Mormon culture. It's sad that a girl has to be at the point of fearing for her life before she had the guts to call authorities. I agree with zippadeedoodah that polygamy in itself, as far as men and women having whatever kind of relationship they want to have, is really not a huge deal. But when it affects children to the extent Mormon fundamentalism does, it's a huge deal. The children have no voice. Someone has to be their voice for them.
quote:
Originally posted by SittinPurdy:
So here's my question: If police discover plenty of evidence once a raid is undertaken, would the case hold up in court if the warrant for the raid was found not to meet legal criteria?


I am not sure enough details have been released to answer all the questions about the legality of the search. Generally, an analysis of a legally obtained search warrant is fact based. A search looking for children being abused currently will be judged less harshly than a warrant looking for the mere presence of drugs. If the call was emergency in nature, they could do a wellfare check and once they saw probable cause for more extensive criminal activity, they could have haulted the search until a warrant was obtained. People are quick to criticize cases lost on Constitutional technicalities but without such protections we would not live with much freedom at all. Good questions Sittin.
Rhiannon, I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember your exact words...You remember when you first joined and told your story & said that other Mormons working as apologists would come on here shortly? When that did in fact happen, it kind of gave me the creeps. I know it can be boiled down to coincidence, but just thought I'd share that with you.

No offense to anyone of the Mormon faith - don't know enough about it to get what Mormons believe anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by SittinPurdy:
No one has addressed my question. All I get are "the Amish are good" and "the LDS is bad" type of statements. I don't disagree with that, but that's not the issue.

The issue is whether the feds can raid private property based on anonymous phone calls, especially when the caller cannot be identified after the raid. If the authorities can raid based on such scant probable cause, then this means I can call the cops anonymously and erroneously report that Joy is holding children in her basement. Next thing she knows the Police are busting down her door. Yes, Police must take such calls seriously and they do have an obligation to visit the property and "knock on the door" so to speak, but that and an all out raid are two different things.

I am assuming, of course, that the feds are going only on this phone call and didn't have other corroborating evidence before the raid.


I think there may be a lot that they haven't released to the media yet. For all we know, there could be other documented calls. This one particular girl went to the hospital while pregnant with her first child. She also went a the hospital for injuries she sustained during a beating from her husband. She said she usually was accompanied by one of the older wives.

I am assuming she went to the same hospital for convenience,etc.

The doctors and nurses there could have also corroborated with the police to back up any claims that she was abused (i.e. pictures, etc.)

I don't think all of the information has been released.

We'll see.


And about the whole Joy scenario you suggested, you probably in fact COULD succeed in that. It depends on where you live and how the law would document your claim. People call in fake bomb threats everyday and police jump on that. A child in danger of being killed is not really an exception. The girl called because she feared she would be killed. Not because she was just some Mormon who was married to some old guy.

They obviously feared someone would end up dead. I don't know the ins and outs of warrants, but I imagine the possibility of a minor being killed or raped again weighed heavily on issuing it.
Last edited by Rock and Roll Means Well
quote:
Originally posted by abbytabby2004:
Far as the search being legal...all any law enforcement needs to investigate a kid abuse case is for it to be reported.


Bear in mind also that recent information on this matter indicates that the caller reported her "husband" and abuser as a person who was on probation from a prior sex offense. That person is reportedly still somewhere within the polygamist compound, probably hiding out, since he has a solid chance of landing wquarely in jail if he is found.
quote:
Originally posted by Rhiannon:
quote:
Originally posted by Top Down Beemer:

Rhiannon - Sounds like maybe you WERE a Mormon but have since stopped being one???


Yes, I WAS a Mormon --a born and bred true-blue believer for most of my life. I resigned my membership 7 years ago and pretty much my entire extended family (and it's a big Mormon family) has disowned me. But luckily my immediate family (my children on down) have also found their way out of the cult and we are all trying to build authentic lives for ourselves now. Not always so easy when you never had to think for yourself in your entire life. There's a couplet in Mormon culture, "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done."

It's bad enough trying to think for yourself when you've been raised in mainstream Mormon culture, it's almost impossible in fundamentalist Mormon culture. It's sad that a girl has to be at the point of fearing for her life before she had the guts to call authorities. I agree with zippadeedoodah that polygamy in itself, as far as men and women having whatever kind of relationship they want to have, is really not a huge deal. But when it affects children to the extent Mormon fundamentalism does, it's a huge deal. The children have no voice. Someone has to be their voice for them.


Rhiannon...me too, although I got involved later in life. PM me sometime and we can discuss it.
quote:
Originally posted by Rhiannon:
quote:
Originally posted by Top Down Beemer:

Rhiannon - Sounds like maybe you WERE a Mormon but have since stopped being one???


Yes, I WAS a Mormon --a born and bred true-blue believer for most of my life. I resigned my membership 7 years ago and pretty much my entire extended family (and it's a big Mormon family) has disowned me. But luckily my immediate family (my children on down) have also found their way out of the cult and we are all trying to build authentic lives for ourselves now. Not always so easy when you never had to think for yourself in your entire life. There's a couplet in Mormon culture, "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done."

It's bad enough trying to think for yourself when you've been raised in mainstream Mormon culture, it's almost impossible in fundamentalist Mormon culture. It's sad that a girl has to be at the point of fearing for her life before she had the guts to call authorities. I agree with zippadeedoodah that polygamy in itself, as far as men and women having whatever kind of relationship they want to have, is really not a huge deal. But when it affects children to the extent Mormon fundamentalism does, it's a huge deal. The children have no voice. Someone has to be their voice for them.


Wow, I applaud your courage in removing yourself and your children from this cult, in spite of what it's cost you with your family. Hang in there and I'm certain it will only continue to get better for you.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Rhiannon, I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember your exact words...You remember when you first joined and told your story & said that other Mormons working as apologists would come on here shortly? When that did in fact happen, it kind of gave me the creeps. I know it can be boiled down to coincidence, but just thought I'd share that with you.

No offense to anyone of the Mormon faith - don't know enough about it to get what Mormons believe anyway.


That's interesting that you remember that.

The reason I knew someone would jump in with the apologetics was that it's exactly what I would have done 10 years ago. I still know all the answers and all the arguments to anything any anti-mormon (anyone other than a true-believing mormon) could come up with. And I would have felt compelled to silence the Satan-inspired apostate (me). I could easily still take the other side and spout off the same stuff. I said it enough times that I certainly remember it. Only difference is that now I can see how silly most of the apologetics is.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
There's nothing really fundamentally wrong with polygamy, if you're crazy enough to want two (or more) wives.


Ain't that the truth. I'm looking at what I've got now, and the thought of it being doubled in every aspect - no thanks. My life is complicated enough as it is....

;^)
quote:
Originally posted by Rhiannon:
quote:
Originally posted by Top Down Beemer:

Rhiannon - Sounds like maybe you WERE a Mormon but have since stopped being one???


Yes, I WAS a Mormon --a born and bred true-blue believer for most of my life. I resigned my membership 7 years ago and pretty much my entire extended family (and it's a big Mormon family) has disowned me. But luckily my immediate family (my children on down) have also found their way out of the cult and we are all trying to build authentic lives for ourselves now. Not always so easy when you never had to think for yourself in your entire life. There's a couplet in Mormon culture, "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done."

It's bad enough trying to think for yourself when you've been raised in mainstream Mormon culture, it's almost impossible in fundamentalist Mormon culture. It's sad that a girl has to be at the point of fearing for her life before she had the guts to call authorities. I agree with zippadeedoodah that polygamy in itself, as far as men and women having whatever kind of relationship they want to have, is really not a huge deal. But when it affects children to the extent Mormon fundamentalism does, it's a huge deal. The children have no voice. Someone has to be their voice for them.


Rhiannon,

I'm sorry to hear that you and your children were possibly abused, and please tell me if I'm wrong. Also on the flip side, I'm happy to see you and yours have gotten out and seem to be adjusted quite nicely.

If you've read any of my material here, you're probably aware that I'm not a fan of cults, especially religious ones. Once freed, former participants can easily see the mass manipulation perpetrated by the leaders, and for obvious reasons they are given cover. I do hope that you continue to speak up about your experience, there is no doubt it will/could help someone break free and/or avoid the same fate.

regards, miamizsun
I can't say I know much about Mormons, but I believe I have read that Marie Osmond is from the "mainstream" Mormon church. (Did anyone ever answer that question or statement about her in the earlier post? I didn't see it if they did). I think that means she is not from one of those colonies and doesn't believe in or practice polygamy. Marie used to come into a store where my mother worked and my mother thought she was a really nice person.

It is awful what happened to those children and don't you know that the people now doing that abuse and encouraging it were treated the same way in their youth. Violent people beget violent people. Sad.
I agree with Fish, Joy. Brainwashing is superimposing something over your existing mental processes. These kids only have their original paradigms to live with. Their world has been defined for them already. It's likely they will be in for a lifetime of therapy, and perhaps can never adjust to what we consider "the normal world". And deprogramming children would of necessity take them to disbelief, fish, but layering on a contradictory set of values over top of this disbelief would simply be wrong, and probably cause a new set of problems. Unfortunately, they are the losers in this sad little drama.
Last year Dr. Phil had 2 girls from the FLDS community in Hilldale/Colorado City who thought they wanted help coming out of the community and normalizing, on his show several times. He called them the 2 "Fawns" (they were both named Fawn).

When you saw the first segment, everyone was so hopeful for them and they had all the help anyone could possibly have in that situation, since they were a national project.

After about 6 months, one of the girls was on again but the other one had gone back to the FLDS community. She just couldn't cope and a lot of it was the guilt she was dealing with.

I've thought that if those girls couldn't make it, the chances of these kids (including the kids who are mothers) in Texas ever de-programming is probably very slim.

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