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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the Timesdaily News Forum, a discussion was begun titled, "Gay Ban Dishonors Military's Integrity" -- and our new Forum Friend, Unreligious, responds to the original poster by writing "Biblical scholars (you know, people who read it in the original languages, not mis-translations) says that God destroyed Sodom for rape and inhospitality. Kind of like the inhospitality you are displaying towards gay people."

My Friend, you are just as wrong as the person who began that discussion by posting, ]"We don't need any queers in this country...little own in our military: Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?"

While I totally dislike the original post and believe his/her wording to be misguided and disgraceful -- I do agree that our leaders should not change the ban on homosexuals in the military. Why? Well, in the military, as in our police departments -- those on the front lines need to know and respect the ones who have their backs. Discipline is the backbone of any military unit. When our leaders insert this barrier between groups in the military -- discipline breaks down.

Yes, I was in the military. And, yes, like most in the military I went in as a 17 year old teenager. In Basic Training, or Boot Camp, or whatever the different branches call their initial military training -- the Drill Instructor is a god. His word is the law; no exceptions. The first thing the military instills in new recruits newly arrived at a training base is -- do not, in any way, make your Drill Instructor unhappy.

Given that kind of atmosphere -- and given a group of 60 scared teenagers -- this could be a breeding ground for disasters if the Drill Instructor happens to be gay. What do we have in this situation? We have 60 scared new teenage recruits living in the same training barracks with a person who is to be viewed as an inerrant god, not to be questioned. What happens if this god tells a recruit to come to his room tonight for late night training? The frightened recruit is powerless to say no. And, we all know what that late night training entails -- at least in the mind of this military appointed god.

Would you want your teenage son or daughter put into such a situation?

And, even after the initial Basic Training -- gays in a military unit can be very disruptive. Young military people have enough trouble with the gays who gather in a community surrounding a military base -- waiting for an opportunity to attempt a seduction upon the young men and women. Yes, I have experienced this also. When I went through Tech School training in Denver -- gays swarmed around the young military people like flies. We could not stand on the bus stop in the evening without gays in cars lining up to try and pick up unsuspecting young GIs.

And, yes, gays allowed in the military can become predatory. This I experienced also. I was stationed at Osan Air Base in Korea. This was a rather large base; so a person could walk to another side of the base and not be recognized. At that time, we lived in twenty men quonset huts and our toilet and showers were in a quonset hut across the street.

One evening I had worked late and went to take a shower. I was the only one in the shower quonset hut -- when suddenly I looked up and saw a guy I did not recognize staring at me. When he made his verbal approach -- I told him in no uncertain terms what I would do to him if he was still there when I got out of the shower. He disappeared in a flash. Was it because he was afraid of what this skinny teenage kid from Alabama could to to him physically? No. He was afraid because if he was caught, or reported, making homosexual advances toward another man -- he would be drummed out of the Air Force.

Today, if we remove the ban on gays in the military -- this restraint will be gone -- for the gays will have no fear of discovery and being kicked out of the military. In other words, it will be "open season" for all gay predators within our military units and bases. God help the poor, innocent young kids trapped by older gay predators.

Openly gay recognition in the military will be a very destructive force from within. And, our current administration, which is very anti-military, sees no problem with this.

But, Unreligious, to address your comment, "Biblical scholars (you know, people who read it in the original languages, not mistranslations) says that God destroyed Sodom for rape and inhospitality. Kind of like the inhospitality you are displaying towards gay people."

The only so called Bible Scholars who support this thinking are the Liberal Theology proponents who are trying to build support for gay and lesbian leaders in Christian churches. Yes, I have seen this advocated by lesbian pastors and other gay theologians -- but, this is truly an abortion of Biblical teaching -- a feeble attempt to rewrite the Bible to fit their worldly desires.

Homosexuality, the homosexual lifestyle, is Biblically a worldly lifestyle and is condemned in the Bible -- and there is absolutely no way to rewrite Genesis 19:4-5 to mean anything except homosexuality.

Genesis 19:4-5, "Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.'"

The men of the city wanted to have homosexual relations with the angels. And, when it says "the men of the city. . . all the people from every quarter" -- we are not talking about a few misfits -- but ALL THE MEN OF THE CITY.

And, it was not the hands of the angels the "men of the city" wanted to shake!

No, my Friend, there is no way Genesis 19 can be honestly translated except to mean homosexuality -- regardless of how gays and lesbians want to rewrite it to include their worldly lifestyle.

Sorry, my Friend -- but, no cigar -- not even if your name is Clinton.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Original Post
The thing I see wrong in your assumption is that you are saying 'straight' drill instructors would not order a recruit of the opposite sex to come for night training.

I see no difference on the battle field between two homosexual or two heterosexual soldiers. You don't think that having women in the armed services didn't cause a new type of training?

A soldier is a soldier, sexual orientation does not come into the equation.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The thing I see wrong in your assumption is that you are saying 'straight' drill instructors would not order a recruit of the opposite sex to come for night training.

I see no difference on the battle field between two homosexual or two heterosexual soldiers. You don't think that having women in the armed services didn't cause a new type of training?

A soldier is a soldier, sexual orientation does not come into the equation.

WHEN AND WHERE DID YOU SERVE IN THE MILITARY?

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Ahh, I see. Only military personnel need respond. I guess being a Navy brat and having grandparents, father, and brother in service doesn't qualify me to have an opinion. This is the same type of discrimination my dad hated when blacks were first serving.

Tell you what Bill, if you have to be part of the military to answer this question, then you have to be Catholic to talk about their practices. Fair?

I repeat, a soldier is a soldier. Period.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Ahh, I see. Only military personnel need respond. I guess being a Navy brat and having grandparents, father, and brother in service doesn't qualify me to have an opinion. This is the same type of discrimination my dad hated when blacks were first serving.

Tell you what Bill, if you have to be part of the military to answer this question, then you have to be Catholic to talk about their practices. Fair? I repeat, a soldier is a soldier. Period.

Hi B50,

If you have never ridden a horse; how can you advise jockeys who race thoroughbreds? Sure, maybe your dad or brother rode horses -- but, what first-hand knowledge does this give YOU?

And, no, the ban on gays in the military is nowhere near like the discrimination against blacks in the military, or anywhere else. To compare the gays and their agenda to the plight of the black people of America is big slap in the face to our black brothers, sisters, and friends.

Do I have any first-hand knowledge of the Roman Catholic church? Well, I would say that twenty years in that church does give me a wee bit of first-hand knowledge.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Yes, gays should have the right to serve openly in the military. This all started because gays were once considered a security risk because of blackmail threats, etc. Attitudes have changed since then and those type of risks are almost unheard of today.

As far as Bill Gray's idiotic ranting, those things can easily occur between heterosexuals. People who serve our country and protect us should be respected and it should not matter who a person sleeps with.
Personally I feel that this decision belongs in the Military among Military personnel. If an overwhelming majority of folks, serving in the military vote or express that they do not wish openly gay people to serve then I feel they should not. It shouldn't be politicized and since I haven't served I will not yield my views one way or the other, with the exception of saying who I think should decide.

If you politically force something on the troops, when they feel overwhelmingly against it then you stand a chance of disenfranchisement of the troops. You also stand a chance that if people overwhelmingly oppose it then revenge could be exacted upon someone, thought to be homosexual, just because others feel it forced upon them.

There are many sides of this issue but the people most effected should have the most say, That's the only opinion I'll give on this subject.
quote:
Originally posted by David L.:
Yes, gays should have the right to serve openly in the military. This all started because gays were once considered a security risk because of blackmail threats, etc. Attitudes have changed since then and those type of risks are almost unheard of today.

As far as Bill Gray's idiotic ranting, those things can easily occur between heterosexuals. People who serve our country and protect us should be respected and it should not matter who a person sleeps with.

Hi David,

No, David, the ban on gays in the military has little, if anything, to do with blackmail threats or national security in that sense. Yes, gays in sensitive offices such as high leadership, i.e., Congress, Senate, the Oval Office -- have always been seen as security risks -- and is still. But, for military people on the front line -- that is a moot point.

The big concern has to do with morale and discipline -- and it has to do with parents concerned about their teenage kids being put at the mercy of older gay predators while serving in the military.

You say the same thing could happen with heterosexuals. David, I have lived a few more years than you. And, I have had gay predators come after me many times -- both in the military and in civilian life. However, I have NEVER had a heterosexual man try to put the make on me -- not once. Am I doing something wrong?

David, since you have often stated your feeling about the gay lifestyle -- you have no credibility in such a discussion. Needless to say, no one doubts that you are a wee bit biased. And, yes, I am biased -- for I have personally experienced gay predators. And, I do not want to turn them loose with an "open season" license on our young kids in the military.

It is more than enough that our young men and women have to, in their teenage years, go into harm's way to protect our, yours and mine, way of life. So, let's not put that extra burden upon them of having to keep looking over their shoulders to ward off gay predators.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Ok.
Maybe this will make you feel better about having agreed with me earlier in a different place, Bill.

I don't care if the person that feels called to fight for this country is white, black, male, female, gay, straight tall, short or whatever.
if they are physically and mentally competent to stand and fight, who am i to say ' no, we don't want YOUR kind defending this country.

I recognize that there can be a lot of homophobia in the military, and that if this passes then there will be an outbreak of violence aganst members of the armed services who 'come out' publicly. It's their choice. If they are prepaired for the consequinces, then they should be able to take the action if they choose. I think that for a long time a lot of them will not choose to come out, because they know what could happen to them.

I Dunno. This could be a good thing, eventually, but i'm afraid at first it's just going to make for splashy headlines and lawsuits, and even more persecution of gays.

Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Whatever is or is not a sin is God's purview. I'll leave the judgement up to him.
Bill, I was talking about heterosexual men making advances on females.

Since you are not gay, you should have no say so in the discussion either.

If everyone in the military shared your opinion and derision of gays, then there might be a problem. Thankfully, the majority of people don't think like you do. Thank God for that!
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Hi Nagel,

I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind. However, I am also against predators who will find a "happy hunting ground" among the young people new in the military.

And, there will be a morale problem caused by openly gay people flouting their new freedom.

Our military people do not need additional problems stacked on their backs by Liberal Politically Correct Politicians seeking votes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I got an E-Mail with a picture of the Mexicans out West Protesting and I would have shown the Picture but I didn't know how to, but one of them had a Sign that said "Give us free Healthcare, Jobs, no Taxes,house and Food, You owe us America, we will Shoot more Police in Arizona until we get Free." so it looks to me like that we have become a society that can just about do or say anything we want to.
Another newsflash for you Bill - all gays are not predators as you seem to think. And the notion that a gay person would join the military just to find sexual partners is ludicrous.

As for gays "flouting their new freedom", I honestly don't know what you mean by that statement or how that would be a morale problem.

I also think you have a problem with bigotry.
Gay Predators? What the??????

You are really losing ground fast here, Bill.
The very fact that you say you have fallen victim to "gay predators" more than once in military and civilian life is more than a little bit weird. Maybe you are really gay, and people are trying to help you "out". ?? just kidding.........
WHO cares what the sexual orientation is, if an individual is ready and able to fight for our country. Do you think they should be banned from the Police Departments too? Where will it end????? Do you want to ostracize gays from all positions in the public eye?
Come on, people are people. Who are you to judge this way??????
If I were in harms way, I don't think I'd be inclined to ask my rescuer his/her sexual orientation before accepting help.
Just because YOU don't agree with homosexuality, and state that it is sinful, let me say again, Bill, let he who has no sin cast the first stone...........
As for me, I'll be thankful for any service men/women that have the courage to fight for our freedom.
Bill, when his life was on the line daily from such dangers as unpolished boots or a bad gig line in the USAF -- aka the Hair Force -- in the early 60s or thereabouts, used to recoil at the sight of vile potential predators in the men's room at the bus station in Colorado Springs. Why he learned to hold it all the way to Denver!

Good thing he was never in the Navy and stationed at the Brooklyn Navy Yard -- all those manly men lounging in the facilities at Washington Square and the nightly gauntlet he would have to run to and from the Village!

Grow up, Billy-O. It ain't too late.
I still say when it comes to the Military and the people who protect our country they should have the overriding say. If they are against Homosexuals serving then even though a homosexual person can and should be able to serve openly political correctness or what we deem as we "should be free to do" should take a back seat. Have Homosexuals performed as heros in the military? I have no doubt they have and would continue to. Again the over riding factor to me is IF it would effect the bulk of our fighting folks then we should defer to their wishes and keep it as it is rather than pushing things on people because it's a politically hot potato.
quote:
Do I have any first-hand knowledge of the Roman Catholic church? Well, I would say that twenty years in that church does give me a wee bit of first-hand knowledge.


No, not at all. First, you have stated you were not a Christian at the time. You never heard the Gospel at Mass, and you claim to be surrounded by people kissing statues.
So, no, Bill. You have no knowledge of the Catholic Church. You have a lot of misconceptions, and you were not open to receiving the Faith at the time. So, sorry, no cigar. If I were you, I don't know that I'd publicize how much time you spent in the Church. It kind of makes you look dumb to all of us who DO know what the Church is all about.
quote:
If they are against Homosexuals serving then even though a homosexual person can and should be able to serve openly political correctness or what we deem as we "should be free to do" should take a back seat


I think, with all due respect, I disagree here. I don't think that political correctedness should trump a person's right to serve in the military. My feeling, is that in this very hostile time, anyone and everyone that is willing to serve, should be allowed, and THANKED for doing so. To heck with political correctness- These are dangerous times. If a gay man or woman is willing to lay down his life, who are we to say that he/she is not "good enough". ? Just my opinion....
Hi Neal/Aude,

I was installing computers onboard Navy ships while you were still in diapers.

You may have read, in your librarian job, about the Liberty hull ship, the USNS Kingsport, which was converted to a control ship for the Syncom Satellite -- the one which allowed President Kennedy to speak via satellite telephone to the president of another nation on the other side of the world.

Well, my dear librarian Friend -- guess who installed the antennae control computer on that ship? You guessed it! Yours truly.

Yes, I help set up the Test Department at Ramo-Wooldridge, which later became Bunker-Ramo, for testing the first AN/UYK-1 MilSpec Minicomputers -- and then, I traveled to the Philadelphia Shipyard to install one onboard the USNS Kingsport. Below is a short description of that computer.

It was one of these same computers I was testing at Ramo-Wooldrigde the morning I was told that President Kennedy had been shot. We put a radio on top of that computer and everyone gathered around to listen to the news. That was about 10:30 AM, California time. At lunch, I drove to Our Lady of The Valley church to pray for him. Then, I went to Frosty Freeze, had a burger for lunch -- and driving back to work -- I heard on the radio that he had died. So, that AN/UYK-1 computer is wrapped all around the memory of JFK for me.

AN/UYK-1 MILITARY MILSPEC MINICOMPUTER
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_(satellite)

Since no computer small enough to fit through a submarine's hatch existed, a new computer was designed, named the AN/UYK-1. It was built with rounded corners to fit through the hatch and was about five feet tall and sealed to be water-proof. The principal design engineer was then-UCLA-faculty-member Lowell Amdahl, brother of Gene Amdahl. The AN/UYK-1 was built by the Ramo-Wooldridge division of TRW for the Lafayette class SSBN's. It was equipped with 8,192 words of 15-bit core memory plus parity bit, threaded by hand at their Canoga Park factory. Cycle time was about one microsecond.

And, I will say this -- you Navy guys never have learned to make coffee. You just pour some 30 weight motor oil in a cup and call this coffee. You need to come to the Air Force for a wee bit if refinement and culture -- and to learn how to make coffee.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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vplee123 said of Bill

“The very fact that you say you have fallen victim to "gay predators" more than once in military and civilian life is more than a little bit weird. Maybe you are really gay, and people are trying to help you "out". ?? just kidding.........”
Well he may be kidding but I'm not. If you had so many “GAY PREDATORS” or just gays hitting on you in the 60's, you must have been giving off some kind of signals. I'll give you the benefit of doubt and say you may not have realized it. But, in the 60's, gays were so scared of getting beat up that they were very careful who they approached. I am a heterosexual and have been married 39 years but I have had gay (including lesbians) friends from a very young age (preteens) and I have never had a problem with any of them. They seem to be able to tell your orientation better than heterosexual can, or maybe it's just that if they are in doubt they let it go.

Again, vplee123 said
“WHO cares what the sexual orientation is, if an individual is ready and able to fight for our country. Do you think they should be banned from the Police Departments too? Where will it end????? “
Forget about where we band them from, what about all the other deviants.
Not that he would ever join the military in the first place but band Tiger Woods. After all he is a sex addict, what about some one that is into BDSM, Cross dressing, Necrophilia, Exhibitionism, or any of the unnumbered fetishes? Would you want these people representing the US in foreign countries?
Any one in the military should be disciplined enough to keep any sexual orientation in check and if they don't they want be in the military long (unless it is military prison).

Bill said,
“I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind.” You need to look at the definition of “any” and change your comment to some or most, but if there is one (1) exception then the word “any” is not correct. Then you continue with; “However, I am also against predators who will find a "happy hunting ground" among the young people new in the military.” That is the same thing they said when they started letting women in the military. They are only joining so they can hook a husband.
That may have been the case for some of them but if it was I'll bet in boot camp most of them washes out or changed their mind. Before you say it, yes a lot of them did find husbands but so did the ones that went to college. Most of them went into the military because it was the closest they could get to fair and equal pay and advancement for the same work as a man.

The enemy, nor their weapons, care what your sexual orientation is.

And just to clear up any question, I am retired Navy.
Hi Daddy,

Like you, I, too, have had friends who were gay -- and they did not bother me. Why? Because we were friends; they respected me and I respected their right to choose their own lifestyle. I have a close friend living near us now whose son is gay -- and he is a very nice guy. I like him. But, his lifestyle is still against the Word of God.

However, this mutual respect does not apply to gay predators who are on the prowl. And, if you tell me that you never encountered gays around Boot Camp towns and Tech School camps -- the only explanation is that you stayed in the closet yourself and never ventured into the real world.

Yes, I have had gay predators come after me, both on military bases and off base, in the local towns.

And, many of my friends experienced this also. One friend was in a panic. An older gay gave him a ride at the bus stop in Denver. Driving toward the base -- the older man made his pitch and my friend said no. Then, the man offered him money and my friend said no. Then, the man offered money and a bottle of whiskey -- and my friend said no. Then, believe it or not -- the man offered money, whiskey, and a night with his wife if the kid would have a homosexual tryst with him.

By the time he got back to the base he was in a panic -- and, of course, being young ourselves then, we teased him -- what, you turned down money, whiskey, and his wife?

But, this type of gay predator is common around any military base where young, inexperienced recruits are training. And, if you say you never experienced that -- you must be the ONLY man who ever served in the military in the last one hundred years who did not.

Am I prejudiced and bigoted? Only if you believe that protecting our young kids from predators makes me such -- for, I will go to bat to protect our young people.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Neal/Aude
Just for your information, the USNS was not a liberty hull ship. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L..._Liberty_ships:_Je-L for a list of liberty hull ships and if you want to check out the USNS Kingsport go to http://www.history.navy.mil/da...ingsport_victory.htm or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...sport_%28T-AG-164%29 .

Bill are you bragging or complaining? I didn't go in till 1969 and I served on older ships and worked on 8 bit machines with only 1K of memory, SO WHAT?
Bill
I'll tell you a story about my wife and a co-worker (a straight female) to further explain what I said.

My wife worked around a bunch of men and cut up and carried on all the time. Not a one of them ever came on to her and it was not because of me or her looks. It was because she gave off the air that it was a great friendship and that was as far as it would ever go. Her co-worker, (married to a man that these men knew to never leave the house with out a gun) wanted to joke around also but liked the ability to do so without leaving the impression that she might be available.
My wife was 17 when we got married and sh entered the military community. You could say she grew up in the military as for as dealing with broad spectrum of male personalities and learned how to handle herself.
Her co-worker on the other hand lived a cloistered life with little exposure to the same and never got over the high school antics that made her seem available. It was not her fault that she did not learn this, but the story goes to show that it has to do with how you handle and present yourself.

“One friend was in a panic. An older gay gave him a ride at the bus stop in Denver. Driving toward the base -- the older man made his pitch and my friend said no. Then, the man offered him money and my friend said no. Then, the man offered money and a bottle of whiskey -- and my friend said no. Then, believe it or not -- the man offered money, whiskey, and a night with his wife if the kid would have a homosexual tryst with him.”

One of my friends was struck by lightning and almost died. This does not give me reason to believe that every lightning will hit some one nor that everyone that is will live.

“if you say you never experienced that -- you must be the ONLY man who ever served in the military in the last one hundred years who did not.”
I will give you that if asked, many that were may lie about it, but I personally doubt that 10% experience it in today's military and in the 60s I'm sure it was a lot lower.

As for as my not getting out, you may have a point. I did not hang around with the liberty crowd much so if they all hung out at the port or base, I probably just passed through them on my way out meet and learn the local culture.

Being Gay is a religious thing for you, I don't care. You say it is against Gods word. You mean the canonized bible I suppose. Whether the scribes were inspired by god or not, I don't care. When men of this world pick and choose which scribes were inspired by god and which were not, then it becomes mans word and no longer gods.
Have you ever heard of the Allegory of the Cave? Some day you and all the religious friends will be freed to look around and see the world/universe/galaxy for what it is and then maybe you will understand the shadows on the wall that you base your religion on.
Before you jump, I consider myself as a very spiritual person, I just don't see any reason to anthropomorphize the spirit.
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:


I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind.




Horsecrap. That's pretty much all you ever display. You persecute the living bejesus out of anybody who disagrees with your eternal "get out of hell free card" way of 'suddenly' thinking. Don't pee on us and tell us it's rainin'!
Alright, Bill. No, I have never served in the military. But my grandfather served in WW2. And I have many friends who are serving NOW.
Gays shouldn't be allowed in the military because their lifestyle is contrary to the Word of God.
So, shall we also ban Jewish people? Your "liberal theologists"? atheists?
Let's build an army of white, anglo fundamentalists! Roll Eyes
No one has to "serve openly" in the military. Everyone with half a brain knows who the homosexual service members are. Don't Ask, Don't Tell only served as a good "get out of the military free" card. The guy/gal would be underway/deployed and start missing home/boyfriend/girlfriend, or feel he/she was treated unfairly for whatever reason and just come out of the closet to his/her superiors. He/she caught the next plane back to the states to work in some office while waiting to be processed out with an honorable discharge.
"HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT?!?"
I saw it happen on more than one occasion. That's how. In fact, a Navy friend was on his first deployment and started missing his boyfriend back in New London, CT. He came out of the closet while underway. His boat pulled in somewhere in Italy and he was on the next flight back. Unknown to him, his boyfriend decided to join the Navy during this time and was off to Great Lakes, IL for boot camp before SAILOR 1 "came out." Sailor 1's plan didn't work too well.
The fact is this; no one cares if the guy is gay or not. If he does his job well and doesn't make any unwanted advances, good on him. Sexuality should never come into play. "Serve openly" is a joke. How about you serve your country openly as an American and forget the rest of the garbage?
If he does his job well and doesn't make any unwanted advances, good on him. Sexuality should never come into play. "Serve openly" is a joke. How about you serve your country openly as an American and forget the rest of the garbage?

Right, on, Tomme.
This whole issue is a non-issue in my book.

Bill-maybe you were emitting gay pheromones?
quote:
Originally posted by StarryNight:
It is rare for a gay man to make advances on another man who he perceives to be straight. Maybe Bill is giving out vibes? I've always heard that the person who beats the issue to death is uncomfortable with their own sexuality. We've seen this happen over and over again (Ted Haggard, Troy King, etc.)

Hi Night,

If you really believe that gays do not make advances toward heterosexual men and women -- then, either you live in a closet -- or you frequent only gay clubs where there are no heterosexuals to approach. As I said, I have seen this happen, not just to me -- but, to many friends -- both in the service and in civilian life.

You could be right that certain people are more attractive to gays than others. You will find this in the heterosexual community also. We all have certain characteristics which attract us to the opposite sex. For me, personally, I have always been attracted to Hispanic and Asian women, I have always been attracted to petite women -- so, these, in my single days -- would always get my attention -- and my action.

So, I guess the same is true in the gay community -- they are attracted to certain types -- and I am 6'3" tall, blonde, and blue eyes. Is that the type which attracts you? It seems to have been for many gays in the past.

Regarding gays in the military, the following quote is a response (to that same article which I also sent to my Friends Ministry) I received from a man who is an evangelist, a mature Christian, a Christian writer and publisher -- and, as ex-Army Drill Sgt:

Well said… as a Drill Sgt of 10 years in the Army, I can tell you that it is also totally UNFAIR to have to worry about a gay ogling you as you undress or shower… we don’t allow guys to go into the girls area and observe them changing, showering, or sleeping… why should gay men be allowed the erotic pleasure of openly watching those they are sexually attracted to?

It’s unfair and inappropriate to the 96% or more “straight” soldiers (and that’s only one of about a 100 reasons gays in the military are a bad idea; many of those ideas to blunt and raw to even discuss).


Night, one thing I have always found about gays and liberals -- they refuse to accept Biblical teaching -- but, will fight tooth and nail in their attempt to rewrite the Bible to fit their desires and their worldly lifestyles. You cannot do that my Friend. God has already authored His Written Word -- and no one can change it. You live by His Word -- or you reject His Word -- but, you cannot change His Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by StarryNight:
It is rare for a gay man to make advances on another man who he perceives to be straight. Maybe Bill is giving out vibes?

I've always heard that the person who beats the issue to death is uncomfortable with their own sexuality. We've seen this happen over and over again (Ted Haggard, Troy King, etc.)


This response is old as the hills. Nothing intelligent, just accuse the other person of being homosexual too... Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
.....60 scared new teenage recruits living in the same training barracks with a person who is to be viewed as an inerrant god, not to be questioned. What happens if this god tells a recruit to come to his room tonight for late night training? The frightened recruit is powerless to say no. And, we all know what that late night training entails -- at least in the mind of this military appointed god.


Ole Gay Bill Gray they used to call him.....

Straight men think about their best friend's mom seducing them after school, or the hot math teacher offering to "tutor" after school, or some other scenario in which the boy is left powerless in the midst of a sexually powerful woman.

But what was Bill Gray thinking about back in boot camp? He was imagining the hot, masculine drill instructor calling him into his room for some "late night training."

Quite the fantasy you had (have) there, buddy. Did you get an erection while typing that post?

Bill, YOU ARE GAY. ACCEPT IT.


Dustin
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Hi Nagel,

I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind. However, I am also against predators who will find a "happy hunting ground" among the young people new in the military.

And, there will be a morale problem caused by openly gay people flouting their new freedom.

Our military people do not need additional problems stacked on their backs by Liberal Politically Correct Politicians seeking votes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Well, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by predators. I've been hit on by gay men before. i don't consider that being hunted by a gay predator, i figure it's a complement because he thought i was good looking and hoped i played for his team. when i told him that, no, i didn't play for his team he accepted it at left me alone.

It didn't offend me any more than it would have if it had it been a girl hitting on me. the answer would have been the same, because i was married.

If you mean aggressive stalker-like behavior, i'm pretty sure that women in the military have been dealing with that for ages now, and it's getting better little by little. so, once this goes public, little by little it will get better as well.

There are morale problems now, and a small part of it is because people who are gay have to hide who they are or risk being throw out of the military. so we'll be trading one problem for another.

there is no perfect answer that the whole country will accept, so we just have to do the best we can. I'm always going to be in favor of making the world a more equal, less hated filled place. this is merely one more step in that direction.
quote:
I'm always going to be in favor of making the world a more equal, less hated filled place


BINGO!
And if it conflicts with ones religious convictions, I say grow up and deal with it....
we live in a multicultural,multi-faith, country of Free Will. Our military should be a melting pot to reflect such.
On this point I would offer to disagree. Our military is not to be politicized, we did that in Vietnam and it didn't work out to well for our cause. Our military exist solely to maintain our form of life and government by force and might. It should not be used to force the rest of the world to accept our form of Government but it should also protect from another coming and and forcing theirs on us. We should not try and politicize the military or attempt to "civilize" it. It exist to protect against the most evil and unimaginable people and beings that seek to destroy our way of life and exist to do a job no one would desire or want to do which is kill or destroy, with extreme prejudice, in order to maintain that which we hold dear. The Military doesn't negotiate rather it conquers and overcomes by force or deters due to it's overwhelming capabilities.

Anything that gets in the way of the military fulfilling it's duty and assigned job or maintaining that deterrence factor is counterproductive. The Military exist to protect freedom and protect our values not to practice them therefore IF the majority of soldiers feel that homosexuality should not be forced upon them (forced by accepting homosexuality as a lifestyle into the military way of life) then it should not be an issue that they have to contend with. I'm all for allowing homosexuals to serve, if they desire to, for they have the same right to fight and die for our country as anyone else but the military is NOT THE PLACE to play out politically what is expedient, right, or wrong. If a person is homosexual and serving in the military then they shouldn't go flaunting it or expecting forced acceptance.

Just my opinion, from a person that loves his country and respects the people (homosexual or straight) that helps keep our country free.

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