Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the Timesdaily News Forum, a discussion was begun titled, "Gay Ban Dishonors Military's Integrity" -- and our new Forum Friend, Unreligious, responds to the original poster by writing "Biblical scholars (you know, people who read it in the original languages, not mis-translations) says that God destroyed Sodom for rape and inhospitality. Kind of like the inhospitality you are displaying towards gay people."

My Friend, you are just as wrong as the person who began that discussion by posting, ]"We don't need any queers in this country...little own in our military: Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?"

While I totally dislike the original post and believe his/her wording to be misguided and disgraceful -- I do agree that our leaders should not change the ban on homosexuals in the military. Why? Well, in the military, as in our police departments -- those on the front lines need to know and respect the ones who have their backs. Discipline is the backbone of any military unit. When our leaders insert this barrier between groups in the military -- discipline breaks down.

Yes, I was in the military. And, yes, like most in the military I went in as a 17 year old teenager. In Basic Training, or Boot Camp, or whatever the different branches call their initial military training -- the Drill Instructor is a god. His word is the law; no exceptions. The first thing the military instills in new recruits newly arrived at a training base is -- do not, in any way, make your Drill Instructor unhappy.

Given that kind of atmosphere -- and given a group of 60 scared teenagers -- this could be a breeding ground for disasters if the Drill Instructor happens to be gay. What do we have in this situation? We have 60 scared new teenage recruits living in the same training barracks with a person who is to be viewed as an inerrant god, not to be questioned. What happens if this god tells a recruit to come to his room tonight for late night training? The frightened recruit is powerless to say no. And, we all know what that late night training entails -- at least in the mind of this military appointed god.

Would you want your teenage son or daughter put into such a situation?

And, even after the initial Basic Training -- gays in a military unit can be very disruptive. Young military people have enough trouble with the gays who gather in a community surrounding a military base -- waiting for an opportunity to attempt a seduction upon the young men and women. Yes, I have experienced this also. When I went through Tech School training in Denver -- gays swarmed around the young military people like flies. We could not stand on the bus stop in the evening without gays in cars lining up to try and pick up unsuspecting young GIs.

And, yes, gays allowed in the military can become predatory. This I experienced also. I was stationed at Osan Air Base in Korea. This was a rather large base; so a person could walk to another side of the base and not be recognized. At that time, we lived in twenty men quonset huts and our toilet and showers were in a quonset hut across the street.

One evening I had worked late and went to take a shower. I was the only one in the shower quonset hut -- when suddenly I looked up and saw a guy I did not recognize staring at me. When he made his verbal approach -- I told him in no uncertain terms what I would do to him if he was still there when I got out of the shower. He disappeared in a flash. Was it because he was afraid of what this skinny teenage kid from Alabama could to to him physically? No. He was afraid because if he was caught, or reported, making homosexual advances toward another man -- he would be drummed out of the Air Force.

Today, if we remove the ban on gays in the military -- this restraint will be gone -- for the gays will have no fear of discovery and being kicked out of the military. In other words, it will be "open season" for all gay predators within our military units and bases. God help the poor, innocent young kids trapped by older gay predators.

Openly gay recognition in the military will be a very destructive force from within. And, our current administration, which is very anti-military, sees no problem with this.

But, Unreligious, to address your comment, "Biblical scholars (you know, people who read it in the original languages, not mistranslations) says that God destroyed Sodom for rape and inhospitality. Kind of like the inhospitality you are displaying towards gay people."

The only so called Bible Scholars who support this thinking are the Liberal Theology proponents who are trying to build support for gay and lesbian leaders in Christian churches. Yes, I have seen this advocated by lesbian pastors and other gay theologians -- but, this is truly an abortion of Biblical teaching -- a feeble attempt to rewrite the Bible to fit their worldly desires.

Homosexuality, the homosexual lifestyle, is Biblically a worldly lifestyle and is condemned in the Bible -- and there is absolutely no way to rewrite Genesis 19:4-5 to mean anything except homosexuality.

Genesis 19:4-5, "Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.'"

The men of the city wanted to have homosexual relations with the angels. And, when it says "the men of the city. . . all the people from every quarter" -- we are not talking about a few misfits -- but ALL THE MEN OF THE CITY.

And, it was not the hands of the angels the "men of the city" wanted to shake!

No, my Friend, there is no way Genesis 19 can be honestly translated except to mean homosexuality -- regardless of how gays and lesbians want to rewrite it to include their worldly lifestyle.

Sorry, my Friend -- but, no cigar -- not even if your name is Clinton.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Original Post
Tell me Bill, why do you insult the word 'gay'?

Call it what it is. you are unwittingly furthering their agenda.

I see you have no problem chastising the OP for the use of the word "queer"...go figure.
The thing I see wrong in your assumption is that you are saying 'straight' drill instructors would not order a recruit of the opposite sex to come for night training.

I see no difference on the battle field between two homosexual or two heterosexual soldiers. You don't think that having women in the armed services didn't cause a new type of training?

A soldier is a soldier, sexual orientation does not come into the equation.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The thing I see wrong in your assumption is that you are saying 'straight' drill instructors would not order a recruit of the opposite sex to come for night training.

I see no difference on the battle field between two homosexual or two heterosexual soldiers. You don't think that having women in the armed services didn't cause a new type of training?

A soldier is a soldier, sexual orientation does not come into the equation.

WHEN AND WHERE DID YOU SERVE IN THE MILITARY?

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Ahh, I see. Only military personnel need respond. I guess being a Navy brat and having grandparents, father, and brother in service doesn't qualify me to have an opinion. This is the same type of discrimination my dad hated when blacks were first serving.

Tell you what Bill, if you have to be part of the military to answer this question, then you have to be Catholic to talk about their practices. Fair?

I repeat, a soldier is a soldier. Period.
quote:

I repeat, a soldier is a soldier. Period.


We follow rules. Believe me, there are many rules that I wish were not there. Follow the rules or get out when your time is up. Too easy.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Ahh, I see. Only military personnel need respond. I guess being a Navy brat and having grandparents, father, and brother in service doesn't qualify me to have an opinion. This is the same type of discrimination my dad hated when blacks were first serving.

Tell you what Bill, if you have to be part of the military to answer this question, then you have to be Catholic to talk about their practices. Fair? I repeat, a soldier is a soldier. Period.

Hi B50,

If you have never ridden a horse; how can you advise jockeys who race thoroughbreds? Sure, maybe your dad or brother rode horses -- but, what first-hand knowledge does this give YOU?

And, no, the ban on gays in the military is nowhere near like the discrimination against blacks in the military, or anywhere else. To compare the gays and their agenda to the plight of the black people of America is big slap in the face to our black brothers, sisters, and friends.

Do I have any first-hand knowledge of the Roman Catholic church? Well, I would say that twenty years in that church does give me a wee bit of first-hand knowledge.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Yes, gays should have the right to serve openly in the military. This all started because gays were once considered a security risk because of blackmail threats, etc. Attitudes have changed since then and those type of risks are almost unheard of today.

As far as Bill Gray's idiotic ranting, those things can easily occur between heterosexuals. People who serve our country and protect us should be respected and it should not matter who a person sleeps with.
Personally I feel that this decision belongs in the Military among Military personnel. If an overwhelming majority of folks, serving in the military vote or express that they do not wish openly gay people to serve then I feel they should not. It shouldn't be politicized and since I haven't served I will not yield my views one way or the other, with the exception of saying who I think should decide.

If you politically force something on the troops, when they feel overwhelmingly against it then you stand a chance of disenfranchisement of the troops. You also stand a chance that if people overwhelmingly oppose it then revenge could be exacted upon someone, thought to be homosexual, just because others feel it forced upon them.

There are many sides of this issue but the people most effected should have the most say, That's the only opinion I'll give on this subject.
quote:
Originally posted by David L.:
Yes, gays should have the right to serve openly in the military. This all started because gays were once considered a security risk because of blackmail threats, etc. Attitudes have changed since then and those type of risks are almost unheard of today.

As far as Bill Gray's idiotic ranting, those things can easily occur between heterosexuals. People who serve our country and protect us should be respected and it should not matter who a person sleeps with.

Hi David,

No, David, the ban on gays in the military has little, if anything, to do with blackmail threats or national security in that sense. Yes, gays in sensitive offices such as high leadership, i.e., Congress, Senate, the Oval Office -- have always been seen as security risks -- and is still. But, for military people on the front line -- that is a moot point.

The big concern has to do with morale and discipline -- and it has to do with parents concerned about their teenage kids being put at the mercy of older gay predators while serving in the military.

You say the same thing could happen with heterosexuals. David, I have lived a few more years than you. And, I have had gay predators come after me many times -- both in the military and in civilian life. However, I have NEVER had a heterosexual man try to put the make on me -- not once. Am I doing something wrong?

David, since you have often stated your feeling about the gay lifestyle -- you have no credibility in such a discussion. Needless to say, no one doubts that you are a wee bit biased. And, yes, I am biased -- for I have personally experienced gay predators. And, I do not want to turn them loose with an "open season" license on our young kids in the military.

It is more than enough that our young men and women have to, in their teenage years, go into harm's way to protect our, yours and mine, way of life. So, let's not put that extra burden upon them of having to keep looking over their shoulders to ward off gay predators.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Ok.
Maybe this will make you feel better about having agreed with me earlier in a different place, Bill.

I don't care if the person that feels called to fight for this country is white, black, male, female, gay, straight tall, short or whatever.
if they are physically and mentally competent to stand and fight, who am i to say ' no, we don't want YOUR kind defending this country.

I recognize that there can be a lot of homophobia in the military, and that if this passes then there will be an outbreak of violence aganst members of the armed services who 'come out' publicly. It's their choice. If they are prepaired for the consequinces, then they should be able to take the action if they choose. I think that for a long time a lot of them will not choose to come out, because they know what could happen to them.

I Dunno. This could be a good thing, eventually, but i'm afraid at first it's just going to make for splashy headlines and lawsuits, and even more persecution of gays.

Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Whatever is or is not a sin is God's purview. I'll leave the judgement up to him.
Bill, I was talking about heterosexual men making advances on females.

Since you are not gay, you should have no say so in the discussion either.

If everyone in the military shared your opinion and derision of gays, then there might be a problem. Thankfully, the majority of people don't think like you do. Thank God for that!
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Hi Nagel,

I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind. However, I am also against predators who will find a "happy hunting ground" among the young people new in the military.

And, there will be a morale problem caused by openly gay people flouting their new freedom.

Our military people do not need additional problems stacked on their backs by Liberal Politically Correct Politicians seeking votes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I got an E-Mail with a picture of the Mexicans out West Protesting and I would have shown the Picture but I didn't know how to, but one of them had a Sign that said "Give us free Healthcare, Jobs, no Taxes,house and Food, You owe us America, we will Shoot more Police in Arizona until we get Free." so it looks to me like that we have become a society that can just about do or say anything we want to.
Another newsflash for you Bill - all gays are not predators as you seem to think. And the notion that a gay person would join the military just to find sexual partners is ludicrous.

As for gays "flouting their new freedom", I honestly don't know what you mean by that statement or how that would be a morale problem.

I also think you have a problem with bigotry.
Gay Predators? What the??????

You are really losing ground fast here, Bill.
The very fact that you say you have fallen victim to "gay predators" more than once in military and civilian life is more than a little bit weird. Maybe you are really gay, and people are trying to help you "out". ?? just kidding.........
WHO cares what the sexual orientation is, if an individual is ready and able to fight for our country. Do you think they should be banned from the Police Departments too? Where will it end????? Do you want to ostracize gays from all positions in the public eye?
Come on, people are people. Who are you to judge this way??????
If I were in harms way, I don't think I'd be inclined to ask my rescuer his/her sexual orientation before accepting help.
Just because YOU don't agree with homosexuality, and state that it is sinful, let me say again, Bill, let he who has no sin cast the first stone...........
As for me, I'll be thankful for any service men/women that have the courage to fight for our freedom.
Bill, when his life was on the line daily from such dangers as unpolished boots or a bad gig line in the USAF -- aka the Hair Force -- in the early 60s or thereabouts, used to recoil at the sight of vile potential predators in the men's room at the bus station in Colorado Springs. Why he learned to hold it all the way to Denver!

Good thing he was never in the Navy and stationed at the Brooklyn Navy Yard -- all those manly men lounging in the facilities at Washington Square and the nightly gauntlet he would have to run to and from the Village!

Grow up, Billy-O. It ain't too late.
I still say when it comes to the Military and the people who protect our country they should have the overriding say. If they are against Homosexuals serving then even though a homosexual person can and should be able to serve openly political correctness or what we deem as we "should be free to do" should take a back seat. Have Homosexuals performed as heros in the military? I have no doubt they have and would continue to. Again the over riding factor to me is IF it would effect the bulk of our fighting folks then we should defer to their wishes and keep it as it is rather than pushing things on people because it's a politically hot potato.
quote:
Do I have any first-hand knowledge of the Roman Catholic church? Well, I would say that twenty years in that church does give me a wee bit of first-hand knowledge.


No, not at all. First, you have stated you were not a Christian at the time. You never heard the Gospel at Mass, and you claim to be surrounded by people kissing statues.
So, no, Bill. You have no knowledge of the Catholic Church. You have a lot of misconceptions, and you were not open to receiving the Faith at the time. So, sorry, no cigar. If I were you, I don't know that I'd publicize how much time you spent in the Church. It kind of makes you look dumb to all of us who DO know what the Church is all about.
quote:
If they are against Homosexuals serving then even though a homosexual person can and should be able to serve openly political correctness or what we deem as we "should be free to do" should take a back seat


I think, with all due respect, I disagree here. I don't think that political correctedness should trump a person's right to serve in the military. My feeling, is that in this very hostile time, anyone and everyone that is willing to serve, should be allowed, and THANKED for doing so. To heck with political correctness- These are dangerous times. If a gay man or woman is willing to lay down his life, who are we to say that he/she is not "good enough". ? Just my opinion....
Hi Neal/Aude,

I was installing computers onboard Navy ships while you were still in diapers.

You may have read, in your librarian job, about the Liberty hull ship, the USNS Kingsport, which was converted to a control ship for the Syncom Satellite -- the one which allowed President Kennedy to speak via satellite telephone to the president of another nation on the other side of the world.

Well, my dear librarian Friend -- guess who installed the antennae control computer on that ship? You guessed it! Yours truly.

Yes, I help set up the Test Department at Ramo-Wooldridge, which later became Bunker-Ramo, for testing the first AN/UYK-1 MilSpec Minicomputers -- and then, I traveled to the Philadelphia Shipyard to install one onboard the USNS Kingsport. Below is a short description of that computer.

It was one of these same computers I was testing at Ramo-Wooldrigde the morning I was told that President Kennedy had been shot. We put a radio on top of that computer and everyone gathered around to listen to the news. That was about 10:30 AM, California time. At lunch, I drove to Our Lady of The Valley church to pray for him. Then, I went to Frosty Freeze, had a burger for lunch -- and driving back to work -- I heard on the radio that he had died. So, that AN/UYK-1 computer is wrapped all around the memory of JFK for me.

AN/UYK-1 MILITARY MILSPEC MINICOMPUTER
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_(satellite)

Since no computer small enough to fit through a submarine's hatch existed, a new computer was designed, named the AN/UYK-1. It was built with rounded corners to fit through the hatch and was about five feet tall and sealed to be water-proof. The principal design engineer was then-UCLA-faculty-member Lowell Amdahl, brother of Gene Amdahl. The AN/UYK-1 was built by the Ramo-Wooldridge division of TRW for the Lafayette class SSBN's. It was equipped with 8,192 words of 15-bit core memory plus parity bit, threaded by hand at their Canoga Park factory. Cycle time was about one microsecond.

And, I will say this -- you Navy guys never have learned to make coffee. You just pour some 30 weight motor oil in a cup and call this coffee. You need to come to the Air Force for a wee bit if refinement and culture -- and to learn how to make coffee.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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vplee123 said of Bill

“The very fact that you say you have fallen victim to "gay predators" more than once in military and civilian life is more than a little bit weird. Maybe you are really gay, and people are trying to help you "out". ?? just kidding.........”
Well he may be kidding but I'm not. If you had so many “GAY PREDATORS” or just gays hitting on you in the 60's, you must have been giving off some kind of signals. I'll give you the benefit of doubt and say you may not have realized it. But, in the 60's, gays were so scared of getting beat up that they were very careful who they approached. I am a heterosexual and have been married 39 years but I have had gay (including lesbians) friends from a very young age (preteens) and I have never had a problem with any of them. They seem to be able to tell your orientation better than heterosexual can, or maybe it's just that if they are in doubt they let it go.

Again, vplee123 said
“WHO cares what the sexual orientation is, if an individual is ready and able to fight for our country. Do you think they should be banned from the Police Departments too? Where will it end????? “
Forget about where we band them from, what about all the other deviants.
Not that he would ever join the military in the first place but band Tiger Woods. After all he is a sex addict, what about some one that is into BDSM, Cross dressing, Necrophilia, Exhibitionism, or any of the unnumbered fetishes? Would you want these people representing the US in foreign countries?
Any one in the military should be disciplined enough to keep any sexual orientation in check and if they don't they want be in the military long (unless it is military prison).

Bill said,
“I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind.” You need to look at the definition of “any” and change your comment to some or most, but if there is one (1) exception then the word “any” is not correct. Then you continue with; “However, I am also against predators who will find a "happy hunting ground" among the young people new in the military.” That is the same thing they said when they started letting women in the military. They are only joining so they can hook a husband.
That may have been the case for some of them but if it was I'll bet in boot camp most of them washes out or changed their mind. Before you say it, yes a lot of them did find husbands but so did the ones that went to college. Most of them went into the military because it was the closest they could get to fair and equal pay and advancement for the same work as a man.

The enemy, nor their weapons, care what your sexual orientation is.

And just to clear up any question, I am retired Navy.
Hi Daddy,

Like you, I, too, have had friends who were gay -- and they did not bother me. Why? Because we were friends; they respected me and I respected their right to choose their own lifestyle. I have a close friend living near us now whose son is gay -- and he is a very nice guy. I like him. But, his lifestyle is still against the Word of God.

However, this mutual respect does not apply to gay predators who are on the prowl. And, if you tell me that you never encountered gays around Boot Camp towns and Tech School camps -- the only explanation is that you stayed in the closet yourself and never ventured into the real world.

Yes, I have had gay predators come after me, both on military bases and off base, in the local towns.

And, many of my friends experienced this also. One friend was in a panic. An older gay gave him a ride at the bus stop in Denver. Driving toward the base -- the older man made his pitch and my friend said no. Then, the man offered him money and my friend said no. Then, the man offered money and a bottle of whiskey -- and my friend said no. Then, believe it or not -- the man offered money, whiskey, and a night with his wife if the kid would have a homosexual tryst with him.

By the time he got back to the base he was in a panic -- and, of course, being young ourselves then, we teased him -- what, you turned down money, whiskey, and his wife?

But, this type of gay predator is common around any military base where young, inexperienced recruits are training. And, if you say you never experienced that -- you must be the ONLY man who ever served in the military in the last one hundred years who did not.

Am I prejudiced and bigoted? Only if you believe that protecting our young kids from predators makes me such -- for, I will go to bat to protect our young people.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Neal/Aude
Just for your information, the USNS was not a liberty hull ship. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L..._Liberty_ships:_Je-L for a list of liberty hull ships and if you want to check out the USNS Kingsport go to http://www.history.navy.mil/da...ingsport_victory.htm or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...sport_%28T-AG-164%29 .

Bill are you bragging or complaining? I didn't go in till 1969 and I served on older ships and worked on 8 bit machines with only 1K of memory, SO WHAT?
Bill
I'll tell you a story about my wife and a co-worker (a straight female) to further explain what I said.

My wife worked around a bunch of men and cut up and carried on all the time. Not a one of them ever came on to her and it was not because of me or her looks. It was because she gave off the air that it was a great friendship and that was as far as it would ever go. Her co-worker, (married to a man that these men knew to never leave the house with out a gun) wanted to joke around also but liked the ability to do so without leaving the impression that she might be available.
My wife was 17 when we got married and sh entered the military community. You could say she grew up in the military as for as dealing with broad spectrum of male personalities and learned how to handle herself.
Her co-worker on the other hand lived a cloistered life with little exposure to the same and never got over the high school antics that made her seem available. It was not her fault that she did not learn this, but the story goes to show that it has to do with how you handle and present yourself.

“One friend was in a panic. An older gay gave him a ride at the bus stop in Denver. Driving toward the base -- the older man made his pitch and my friend said no. Then, the man offered him money and my friend said no. Then, the man offered money and a bottle of whiskey -- and my friend said no. Then, believe it or not -- the man offered money, whiskey, and a night with his wife if the kid would have a homosexual tryst with him.”

One of my friends was struck by lightning and almost died. This does not give me reason to believe that every lightning will hit some one nor that everyone that is will live.

“if you say you never experienced that -- you must be the ONLY man who ever served in the military in the last one hundred years who did not.”
I will give you that if asked, many that were may lie about it, but I personally doubt that 10% experience it in today's military and in the 60s I'm sure it was a lot lower.

As for as my not getting out, you may have a point. I did not hang around with the liberty crowd much so if they all hung out at the port or base, I probably just passed through them on my way out meet and learn the local culture.

Being Gay is a religious thing for you, I don't care. You say it is against Gods word. You mean the canonized bible I suppose. Whether the scribes were inspired by god or not, I don't care. When men of this world pick and choose which scribes were inspired by god and which were not, then it becomes mans word and no longer gods.
Have you ever heard of the Allegory of the Cave? Some day you and all the religious friends will be freed to look around and see the world/universe/galaxy for what it is and then maybe you will understand the shadows on the wall that you base your religion on.
Before you jump, I consider myself as a very spiritual person, I just don't see any reason to anthropomorphize the spirit.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:


I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind.




Horsecrap. That's pretty much all you ever display. You persecute the living bejesus out of anybody who disagrees with your eternal "get out of hell free card" way of 'suddenly' thinking. Don't pee on us and tell us it's rainin'!
Alright, Bill. No, I have never served in the military. But my grandfather served in WW2. And I have many friends who are serving NOW.
Gays shouldn't be allowed in the military because their lifestyle is contrary to the Word of God.
So, shall we also ban Jewish people? Your "liberal theologists"? atheists?
Let's build an army of white, anglo fundamentalists! Roll Eyes
No one has to "serve openly" in the military. Everyone with half a brain knows who the homosexual service members are. Don't Ask, Don't Tell only served as a good "get out of the military free" card. The guy/gal would be underway/deployed and start missing home/boyfriend/girlfriend, or feel he/she was treated unfairly for whatever reason and just come out of the closet to his/her superiors. He/she caught the next plane back to the states to work in some office while waiting to be processed out with an honorable discharge.
"HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT?!?"
I saw it happen on more than one occasion. That's how. In fact, a Navy friend was on his first deployment and started missing his boyfriend back in New London, CT. He came out of the closet while underway. His boat pulled in somewhere in Italy and he was on the next flight back. Unknown to him, his boyfriend decided to join the Navy during this time and was off to Great Lakes, IL for boot camp before SAILOR 1 "came out." Sailor 1's plan didn't work too well.
The fact is this; no one cares if the guy is gay or not. If he does his job well and doesn't make any unwanted advances, good on him. Sexuality should never come into play. "Serve openly" is a joke. How about you serve your country openly as an American and forget the rest of the garbage?
Bill,
We Navy guys CAN make a good cup of coffee. Well, at least on submarines we can. No offense taken, though. I just wanted to clarify.
Bill I was in the Military the same time as you, U.S. Army and I was never approached by a Homosexual nor have I ever been that I know of, I loved them Women too much, there is something bad wrong with a man that wants a Man over a Woman.
If he does his job well and doesn't make any unwanted advances, good on him. Sexuality should never come into play. "Serve openly" is a joke. How about you serve your country openly as an American and forget the rest of the garbage?

Right, on, Tomme.
This whole issue is a non-issue in my book.

Bill-maybe you were emitting gay pheromones?
It is rare for a gay man to make advances on another man who he perceives to be straight. Maybe Bill is giving out vibes?

I've always heard that the person who beats the issue to death is uncomfortable with their own sexuality. We've seen this happen over and over again (Ted Haggard, Troy King, etc.)
quote:
Originally posted by StarryNight:
It is rare for a gay man to make advances on another man who he perceives to be straight. Maybe Bill is giving out vibes? I've always heard that the person who beats the issue to death is uncomfortable with their own sexuality. We've seen this happen over and over again (Ted Haggard, Troy King, etc.)

Hi Night,

If you really believe that gays do not make advances toward heterosexual men and women -- then, either you live in a closet -- or you frequent only gay clubs where there are no heterosexuals to approach. As I said, I have seen this happen, not just to me -- but, to many friends -- both in the service and in civilian life.

You could be right that certain people are more attractive to gays than others. You will find this in the heterosexual community also. We all have certain characteristics which attract us to the opposite sex. For me, personally, I have always been attracted to Hispanic and Asian women, I have always been attracted to petite women -- so, these, in my single days -- would always get my attention -- and my action.

So, I guess the same is true in the gay community -- they are attracted to certain types -- and I am 6'3" tall, blonde, and blue eyes. Is that the type which attracts you? It seems to have been for many gays in the past.

Regarding gays in the military, the following quote is a response (to that same article which I also sent to my Friends Ministry) I received from a man who is an evangelist, a mature Christian, a Christian writer and publisher -- and, as ex-Army Drill Sgt:

Well said… as a Drill Sgt of 10 years in the Army, I can tell you that it is also totally UNFAIR to have to worry about a gay ogling you as you undress or shower… we don’t allow guys to go into the girls area and observe them changing, showering, or sleeping… why should gay men be allowed the erotic pleasure of openly watching those they are sexually attracted to?

It’s unfair and inappropriate to the 96% or more “straight” soldiers (and that’s only one of about a 100 reasons gays in the military are a bad idea; many of those ideas to blunt and raw to even discuss).


Night, one thing I have always found about gays and liberals -- they refuse to accept Biblical teaching -- but, will fight tooth and nail in their attempt to rewrite the Bible to fit their desires and their worldly lifestyles. You cannot do that my Friend. God has already authored His Written Word -- and no one can change it. You live by His Word -- or you reject His Word -- but, you cannot change His Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by StarryNight:
It is rare for a gay man to make advances on another man who he perceives to be straight. Maybe Bill is giving out vibes?

I've always heard that the person who beats the issue to death is uncomfortable with their own sexuality. We've seen this happen over and over again (Ted Haggard, Troy King, etc.)


This response is old as the hills. Nothing intelligent, just accuse the other person of being homosexual too... Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
.....60 scared new teenage recruits living in the same training barracks with a person who is to be viewed as an inerrant god, not to be questioned. What happens if this god tells a recruit to come to his room tonight for late night training? The frightened recruit is powerless to say no. And, we all know what that late night training entails -- at least in the mind of this military appointed god.


Ole Gay Bill Gray they used to call him.....

Straight men think about their best friend's mom seducing them after school, or the hot math teacher offering to "tutor" after school, or some other scenario in which the boy is left powerless in the midst of a sexually powerful woman.

But what was Bill Gray thinking about back in boot camp? He was imagining the hot, masculine drill instructor calling him into his room for some "late night training."

Quite the fantasy you had (have) there, buddy. Did you get an erection while typing that post?

Bill, YOU ARE GAY. ACCEPT IT.


Dustin
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
How about you serve your country openly as an American and forget the rest of the garbage?


AMEN!
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Hi Nagel,

I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind. However, I am also against predators who will find a "happy hunting ground" among the young people new in the military.

And, there will be a morale problem caused by openly gay people flouting their new freedom.

Our military people do not need additional problems stacked on their backs by Liberal Politically Correct Politicians seeking votes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Well, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by predators. I've been hit on by gay men before. i don't consider that being hunted by a gay predator, i figure it's a complement because he thought i was good looking and hoped i played for his team. when i told him that, no, i didn't play for his team he accepted it at left me alone.

It didn't offend me any more than it would have if it had it been a girl hitting on me. the answer would have been the same, because i was married.

If you mean aggressive stalker-like behavior, i'm pretty sure that women in the military have been dealing with that for ages now, and it's getting better little by little. so, once this goes public, little by little it will get better as well.

There are morale problems now, and a small part of it is because people who are gay have to hide who they are or risk being throw out of the military. so we'll be trading one problem for another.

there is no perfect answer that the whole country will accept, so we just have to do the best we can. I'm always going to be in favor of making the world a more equal, less hated filled place. this is merely one more step in that direction.
quote:
I'm always going to be in favor of making the world a more equal, less hated filled place


BINGO!
And if it conflicts with ones religious convictions, I say grow up and deal with it....
we live in a multicultural,multi-faith, country of Free Will. Our military should be a melting pot to reflect such.
On this point I would offer to disagree. Our military is not to be politicized, we did that in Vietnam and it didn't work out to well for our cause. Our military exist solely to maintain our form of life and government by force and might. It should not be used to force the rest of the world to accept our form of Government but it should also protect from another coming and and forcing theirs on us. We should not try and politicize the military or attempt to "civilize" it. It exist to protect against the most evil and unimaginable people and beings that seek to destroy our way of life and exist to do a job no one would desire or want to do which is kill or destroy, with extreme prejudice, in order to maintain that which we hold dear. The Military doesn't negotiate rather it conquers and overcomes by force or deters due to it's overwhelming capabilities.

Anything that gets in the way of the military fulfilling it's duty and assigned job or maintaining that deterrence factor is counterproductive. The Military exist to protect freedom and protect our values not to practice them therefore IF the majority of soldiers feel that homosexuality should not be forced upon them (forced by accepting homosexuality as a lifestyle into the military way of life) then it should not be an issue that they have to contend with. I'm all for allowing homosexuals to serve, if they desire to, for they have the same right to fight and die for our country as anyone else but the military is NOT THE PLACE to play out politically what is expedient, right, or wrong. If a person is homosexual and serving in the military then they shouldn't go flaunting it or expecting forced acceptance.

Just my opinion, from a person that loves his country and respects the people (homosexual or straight) that helps keep our country free.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Well, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by predators. I've been hit on by gay men before. i don't consider that being hunted by a gay predator, i figure it's a complement because he thought i was good looking and hoped i played for his team. when i told him that, no, i didn't play for his team he accepted it at left me alone.

Hi Nagel,

When I say "gay predator" I am thinking more of the older gays who go after the young kids fresh in the military. This could be older gays from the community surrounding the training base -- or it could be older gays within the military who will take advantage of the new kids who have not yet learned their way around the military.

Yes, like you, as an older man -- I have always been able to handle the situation with gays who approach me in bars and night clubs. These are not the predators I had in mind.

Our young people in the military have volunteered to go in harm's way to protect our way of life. We owe it to them to protect them from gay predators while they are being prepared for their duty.

That is my point -- and I believe, from personal experience, myself and friends, it is a valid point.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
I'm always going to be in favor of making the world a more equal, less hated filled place

BINGO! And if it conflicts with ones religious convictions, I say grow up and deal with it.... we live in a multicultural, multi-faith, country of Free Will. Our military should be a melting pot to reflect such.

Hi VP,

So your Roman Catholic church supports the homosexual lifestyle and believes that gays should openly be in the military?

I would have thought differently -- especially seeing how homosexuality and gay predators have affected so many within the Roman Catholic church.

But, if you say the Roman Catholic church supports homosexuality; who am I to argue with you.

Or, was this just another juvenile knee jerk reaction to disagree with Bill Gray?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Please tell me where I said that Catholic Church supports the homosexual lifestyle.

Please don't lie and twist words, it's not very becoming.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Please don't lie and twist words, it's not very becoming.


That's what Bill does when he doesn't have a response.

Dustin
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Please tell me where I said that Catholic Church supports the homosexual lifestyle. Please don't lie and twist words, it's not very becoming.

Okay, VP,

Maybe I misread your post -- it is only YOU, a staunch Roman Catholic, who supports Gays and Homosexuality. Do you also support this among the priests? If in the military -- why not in the church? Both offer predatory access to young people.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Do I support gays?
Absolutely!!!!!!
I support and love all my sisters and brothers. While I may not agree with their lifestyle, it is not my place to cast stones. I am certainly not without sin myself.
So, you can love the sinner, hate the sin. Just like Jesus does.
I think your "predatory" depiction of gays is way off base. And yeah, I have plenty of experience with "gay" people. Never once did I find their spirits to be predatory. On the contrary, I found the gays that I worked with to be more open, loving and meek than most. Are they in sin? Yes. But show me someone who isnt.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Well, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by predators. I've been hit on by gay men before. i don't consider that being hunted by a gay predator, i figure it's a complement because he thought i was good looking and hoped i played for his team. when i told him that, no, i didn't play for his team he accepted it at left me alone.

Hi Nagel,

When I say "gay predator" I am thinking more of the older gays who go after the young kids fresh in the military. This could be older gays from the community surrounding the training base -- or it could be older gays within the military who will take advantage of the new kids who have not yet learned their way around the military.

Yes, like you, as an older man -- I have always been able to handle the situation with gays who approach me in bars and night clubs. These are not the predators I had in mind.

Our young people in the military have volunteered to go in harm's way to protect our way of life. We owe it to them to protect them from gay predators while they are being prepared for their duty.

That is my point -- and I believe, from personal experience, myself and friends, it is a valid point.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


It may well be valid. I cannot confirm or deny its validity. All i can say is that the few times i've been hit on by a gay guy, he was polite and respectful and took No to mean No. I've never experianced your version of the Gay Predator, so I don't really have an opinion on it.

All i really know for a fact is this:

I'm not gay, and because i'm not i don't really have an opinion on the gay lifestyle. whether it's bibilically wrong or not is no concern of mine - it's God's job to dole out judgement. I don't worry that my son will 'be lured into homosexuality' because i personally believe either you are gay, or you aren't. I know you disagree, but we're all entitled to our own opinion. you will claim that the bible proves your point, but i disagree with that as well, so there isn't any point in arguing it. we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one and let it go.

You are correct - we DO owe it to those willing to serve. we owe them everything. i was never of the temprement to serve in the military, but i have worlds of respect for those who do, and did, and that includes you. Smiler

But.. bare with me here...

( This is a hypothetical, merely something to think about....)

Is it possible that your biblical beliefs cause you to see a greater threat than is really there? i know you like to think you don't discriminate, but instead try to bring the gays out of sin. to most of the rest of us it looks like discrimination and fear and ahtred towards homosexuals. i'm not accusing you of this, i'm simply stating that this is what it looks like to most of us.

so, i wonder if your concern of the threat of gay predators in the military isn't because of your deep seated belief that homosexuality is passed from person to person like the flu, and with each ' conversion' spreads sin with it?

See.. until you, I've never met anyone who mentioned 'gay military predators' other than one marine who, while discussing the Navy's predator drones, who said "Dude, Predator's are gay. they're so the POGe's scan just play nintendo on the ships and not get their uniforms dirty."
( but i think this isn't what you mean)

i've known several people in the various services, including coast guards, and some of them i've known very well. none of them have ever mentioned feeling threatened in the way you mention.

i'm not saying you are lying or anything... i'm saying perhaps you see a greater threat than is really there, because of a couple of bad experiances you had. perhaps you were the extreme exception, and not the rule.

it's just a thought. /shrug
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:


When I say "gay predator" I am thinking more of the older gays who go after the young kids fresh in the military. This could be older gays from the community surrounding the training base -- or it could be older gays within the military who will take advantage of the new kids who have not yet learned their way around the military.


Wellnow. I would think that if a recruit couldn't handle getting hit on by a polesmoker, he probably wouldn't make it through training anyway. After all-They ARE there preparing to deal death and destruction on an enemy far more formidable than the average nancyboy. Then again, mebbe the Air Force is different. I mean, "fly truck-push button-fly home."
Not a lotta contact sport there. I suppose in the other branches where fighting is done on the ground-more up close and personal the recruits end up a bit tougher. HOOAH!
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ thenagel...


How does your son learn right from wrong?


*I* tell him.


Thats what I thought. You are sadly mistaken how children learn.
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
I guess this guy was born this way.

I bet I don't get a response out of dusty boy or davy.


it's possible.
it hasn't been determined at this time what causes a scociopath or a child molester. they think that sometimes childhood trauma *can* contribute, but not always. otherwise there would be a lot more around.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ thenagel...


How does your son learn right from wrong?




*I* tell him.


Thats what I thought. You are sadly mistaken how children learn.


i see.
and your opinion is?

More importantly, why should i care what you think?
Last edited by thenagel
I didn't have to google long to find this: http://www.military.com/news/a...t-for-being-gay.html

News flash: There have always been homosexuals in the military. I've met homosexual veterans. I didn't kiss them, but I've met them.

There have been homosexuals in the military always. Since Alexander the Great, and beyond.

Imagine this: If homosexuals can identify themselves as such, then there is not the current ambiguity as to who is gay and who is not.


Wouldn't that be better?
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ thenagel...


How does your son learn right from wrong?




*I* tell him.


Thats what I thought. You are sadly mistaken how children learn.


i see.
and your opinion is?



What lesson do you think your son learns when you, his Father, approves of homosexuality?
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ thenagel...


How does your son learn right from wrong?




*I* tell him.


Thats what I thought. You are sadly mistaken how children learn.


i see.
and your opinion is?



What lesson do you think your son learns when you, his Father, approves of homosexuality?


that all men are created equal, and no one should be discriminated against because of race, religion, creed, sexual preferance or nation of origin.

i never said i ' approved' of homosexuality.
in fact, i agree that the bible says that it is an abomonation, and ergo, a sin.
HOWEVER - I am not God, nor do i presume to have his authority to judge my fellow man based upon his rules. i can judge if someone is worth my time. i can judge if someone is the sort of person i want to get to know. i can judge whether or not a person is lying, full of crap, or a general waste of air. i can make mundane judgements about how things affect my life here on earth.

i cannot pass judgements for the divine. it's not my place to decide whether or not someone sins by their lifestyle.
and because of that i try my best to treat people equally. gay, straight, black white, redhead, blonde, jew, muslim, i don't care. we are all equal in the eyes of God, and until He decides otherwise, all are equal in my eyes. He may judge, but i cannot.

and i've taught my son the same thing. he doesn't have the authority to pass judgements on man that are reserved for God.
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
god has no such rights, either.

Hi my Deep/Fish Friend,

God has the right to do what He wants. After all, we are His creation; He is not our Creation.

But, then again, telling this to an atheist is like spitting into the wind. Yet, for the sake of those whose spirits are not dead -- I will say it.

It is funny how an atheist will totally deny God; then, turn around and tell us that God does not have the right to judge us. If there is no God, it is a moot point.

Yet, if there IS a God; it becomes a very important point.

Which is true: God or no God?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
that all men are created equal, and no one should be discriminated against because of race, religion, creed, sexual preferance or nation of origin.

i never said i ' approved' of homosexuality.
in fact, i agree that the bible says that it is an abomonation, and ergo, a sin.
HOWEVER - I am not God, nor do i presume to have his authority to judge my fellow man based upon his rules. i can judge if someone is worth my time. i can judge if someone is the sort of person i want to get to know. i can judge whether or not a person is lying, full of crap, or a general waste of air. i can make mundane judgements about how things affect my life here on earth.

i cannot pass judgements for the divine. it's not my place to decide whether or not someone sins by their lifestyle.
and because of that i try my best to treat people equally. gay, straight, black white, redhead, blonde, jew, muslim, i don't care. we are all equal in the eyes of God, and until He decides otherwise, all are equal in my eyes. He may judge, but i cannot.

and i've taught my son the same thing. he doesn't have the authority to pass judgements on man that are reserved for God.


Oh, Thenagel...///bows to you! Smiler Perfectly stated!
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Seems I'm not familiar with the lingo here yet. Why does Bill call me "Deep/Fish"? Is it a compliment or an insult?

Hi Deep,

Actually, it is neither; only the facts. But, after reading more of your posts, I should have only written "Deep."

Welcome back! How long will you stay this time before your mouth/typing finger gets you in hot water and you get invited to leave again?

But, I do welcome you back -- for your atheist comments gave me many platforms from which to share the Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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maybe not insane, but just paranoid. He has also accused me of posting under different names....it's all that pollution in Californication. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ thenagel...


How does your son learn right from wrong?




*I* tell him.


Thats what I thought. You are sadly mistaken how children learn.


i see.
and your opinion is?



What lesson do you think your son learns when you, his Father, approves of homosexuality?


that all men are created equal, and no one should be discriminated against because of race, religion, creed, sexual preferance or nation of origin.

i never said i ' approved' of homosexuality.
in fact, i agree that the bible says that it is an abomonation, and ergo, a sin.
HOWEVER - I am not God, nor do i presume to have his authority to judge my fellow man based upon his rules. i can judge if someone is worth my time. i can judge if someone is the sort of person i want to get to know. i can judge whether or not a person is lying, full of crap, or a general waste of air. i can make mundane judgements about how things affect my life here on earth.

i cannot pass judgements for the divine. it's not my place to decide whether or not someone sins by their lifestyle.
and because of that i try my best to treat people equally. gay, straight, black white, redhead, blonde, jew, muslim, i don't care. we are all equal in the eyes of God, and until He decides otherwise, all are equal in my eyes. He may judge, but i cannot.

and i've taught my son the same thing. he doesn't have the authority to pass judgements on man that are reserved for God.



Hold up a minute. Why are you referring to the constitution and God?

What has either to do with OUR discussion?

You say you are not approving of homosexuality...well yes thenagel, you are. And your son will see this.
quote:


You say you are not approving of homosexuality...well yes thenagel, you are. And your son will see this.


And I would venture that theangel's son will turn out to be better adjusted than your children WH. Heaven help them growing up with that attitude instilled into them.

What is YOUR obsession with the gay thing?
You say you are not approving of homosexuality...well yes thenagel, you are. And your son will see this.

Yes! His son will see that his father does not presume to judge other people. He can love and accept people for whom they are. He doesnt have to agree with it, but he is not correct to condemn and cast stones either.
Let me ask you a question- if your son came to you and told you he was gay, would you kick him out of the house? Disown him?
quote:
Originally posted by WH:


Hold up a minute. Why are you referring to the constitution and God?


Ohh.. I dunno. possibly because the line is " all men are CREATED equal... and since God is the Creator, i thought it somewhat appropriate.


quote:

What has either to do with OUR discussion?


quite a lot, really.
odd that you don't see it.
if it weren't for God, your position of homosexuality being wrong would be pretty pointless, don't you think? If not for the constitution guarenteeing equality, it also would be a pretty pointless discussion.

this is of course, assuming that your anti-gay stance is based on something real and not just from fear and ignorance on your part - hate for hate's sake because they are different therefore they should be shunned and punished.

quote:

You say you are not approving of homosexuality...well yes thenagel, you are. And your son will see this.


Interesting. now you're a mind reader? you can read this post and you can see into my mind and heart and now what i think better than i do?
Most Impressive. Also quite arrogant, and very laughable.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
You say you are not approving of homosexuality...well yes thenagel, you are. And your son will see this.

Yes! His son will see that his father does not presume to judge other people. He can love and accept people for whom they are. He doesnt have to agree with it, but he is not correct to condemn and cast stones either.
Let me ask you a question- if your son came to you and told you he was gay, would you kick him out of the house? Disown him?


I'm guessing he would cast a lot of stones, till death.

The Bible says to hate the sin, not the sinner. I don't judge and I don't pretend to have the authority to do so.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The Bible says to hate the sin, not the sinner. I don't judge and I don't pretend to have the authority to do so.

Hi B50,

If you are a Christian believer, Matthew 18:15-17 not only gives you the authority -- but, also the marching orders to do so within the church, the body of Christ.

And, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15 gives you the authority and the marching orders to do so outside the body of Christ, the church.

Either way, as the saying goes, "Just do it!" -- instead of sitting on your butt denying what Jesus Christ has asked of you and all Christian believers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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When you get pass the 'Judge not lest ye be judged', we can discuss it.

quote:
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.



YOU can go around condemning people all day, I prefer to offer a kind ear and let God do the rest.
quote:
Matthew 18:15-17



A Brother Who Sins Against You
15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.



I take this to mean a sin against someone personally Bill, not condemning every one who has sinned and then treating them like pagans. I can see where you would get that out of it.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
YOU can go around condemning people all day, I prefer to offer a kind ear and let God do the rest.

Hi B50,

In other words, YOU want God to do all the work -- and, let you just sit back and reap all the benefits.

I wonder if that is what Jesus Christ intended when He gave us marching orders in Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, and Mark 16:15?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Matthew 18:15-17 A Brother Who Sins Against You

Matthew 18:15-17,"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

I take this to mean a sin against someone personally Bill, not condemning every one who has sinned and then treating them like pagans. I can see where you would get that out of it.

Hi B50,

If this passage meant only that sin against you personally; why would He tell us to take it before the whole church? No, when this passage says "sins against you" it is referring to a sin against the body of Christ, the church. This passage can be related to 1 Corinthians 5 and 6 where Paul writes more about personal sins which affect the whole church, i.e, incest, law suits among Christians, etc.

In this passage, Jesus Christ is telling us that, if a brother/sister is living a life which is detrimental to the body of Christ, and to himself/herself, we must reprove him/her in private. If that person will not listen, then we are to take 2 or 3 mature Christians with us and reprove this person.

If he/she still refuses to change that action or lifestyle which is harmful to his/her walk with the Lord and the body of Christ -- then, we are to take that person before the congregation. If he/she still refuses to change -- we ask him/her to leave the church. This is not to condemn them; but in the hope that this will cause the person to reconsider their actions. If then, he/she still insists upon following the wrong path -- we must choose to protect the church from this distraction and bad influence.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Hi B50,

In other words, YOU want God to do all the work -- and, let you just sit back and reap all the benefits.

I wonder if that is what Jesus Christ intended when He gave us marching orders in Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, and Mark 16:15?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


Well Bill, He is the one who opens the heart and the mind, not me. If He is NOT doing 'all the work', then worshiping Him would be a little silly.

Matthew 18 clearly says, 'If your brother sins against you', you are to talk in private, then use other Christians to help that one person who sinned against you. Not the entire church.

As for your last line, I guess your church kicks out all the known homosexuals, or do you have a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy?
quote:
Ohh.. I dunno. possibly because the line is " all men are CREATED equal... and since God is the Creator, i thought it somewhat appropriate.



All men may be created equal, its what happens after creation that counts. Why you brought this up behooves me...it is neither here nor there with our discussion.


quote:
if it weren't for God, your position of homosexuality being wrong would be pretty pointless, don't you think?



No. God has nothing to do with my thinking homosexuality is wrong. I think it is wrong for one man to let another man enter his body for sexual gratification. Either is not showing respect for themselves, they certainly wont receive any respect from me.


quote:
If not for the constitution guarenteeing equality, it also would be a pretty pointless discussion.



The constitution doesn't guarantee equality.


quote:
this is of course, assuming that your anti-gay stance is based on something real and not just from fear and ignorance on your part - hate for hate's sake because they are different therefore they should be shunned and punished.



Yes I think sexual perversion is real. Now you are trying to insert "hate' into the discussion, please don't be dishonest. Where did I say I hated them?


quote:
Interesting. now you're a mind reader? you can read this post and you can see into my mind and heart and now what i think better than i do?


I can only go by what you are posting. It sure appears you are in support of homosexuality, at least your postings dictate as much. To make it simple, I will ask...are you in support of homosexuality?

quote:
Most Impressive. Also quite arrogant, and very laughable.



Actually I think you expecting me to accept homosexuality as right is arrogant, and quite frankly sad, very sad that our country has come to this. As a straight man myself, what would your opinion be if I wanted to have a few more wives?
quote:
Originally posted by StarryNight:
quote:


You say you are not approving of homosexuality...well yes thenagel, you are. And your son will see this.


And I would venture that theangel's son will turn out to be better adjusted than your children WH. Heaven help them growing up with that attitude instilled into them.

What is YOUR obsession with the gay thing?


My children are grown women. They have given me 4 absolutely wonderful grandchildren...something his son wont be able to do if he goes homosexual. Hie sons life will be cut by twenty years, he will be exposed to more diseases. He will be greatly more likely to commit suicide. Why would he not want his son to be made aware of this?


To a child your words say one thing...your actions says it ALL.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
When you get pass the 'Judge not lest ye be judged', we can discuss it.

quote:
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.



YOU can go around condemning people all day, I prefer to offer a kind ear and let God do the rest.


B50...what would you say to a child molester?
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by StarryNight:
quote:


You say you are not approving of homosexuality...well yes thenagel, you are. And your son will see this.


And I would venture that theangel's son will turn out to be better adjusted than your children WH. Heaven help them growing up with that attitude instilled into them.

What is YOUR obsession with the gay thing?


My children are grown women. They have given me 4 absolutely wonderful grandchildren...something his son wont be able to do if he goes homosexual. Hie sons life will be cut by twenty years, he will be exposed to more diseases. He will be greatly more likely to commit suicide. Why would he not want his son to be made aware of this?


To a child your words say one thing...your actions says it ALL.


I have 2 grown sons and 1 grandchild. My boys were raised with alot of the same ideals and morals that thenagel is raising his son with. My 2 are heterosexuals. I have a couple of homosexual friends that they spent time with as small children and teens. I have a cousin that is homosexual and very close to my family. If my son's had been born homosexual the only fear I would have would be from people like you making their lives difficult and making them feel like they were less than a man because of their sexual orientation.

You talk about high suicide rates in homosexuals. That is true. You should look at the reason why the numbers are high. It is usually young people and in most cases they are either from a very homophobic families and they fear loosing them or displeasing them or they have been picked on and bullied by homophobic classmates to the point of desperation.

I taught my son's to respect others rights to live their lives as they choose. To not mistreat those that are different from them. I am proud of the men they have become and I am proud to say they also have gay friends and my oldest even has one of his gay friends babysit his son on occasion.

I think you were the one that posted the question about more than one wife? I say if all involved are consenting adults that haven't been forced into the situation then by all means have 100!

When this country starts paying attention to whats really going wrong in this country and not what 2 consenting people do in there bedroom we might see this country be all it should be.

My husband is very heterosexual and he could care less what other men do. Why do you care so much? You say its not about god or country...so.....tell us again about men entering other men. You seem to have thought about it quite abit. I see you made no mention of homosexual women...
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
When you get pass the 'Judge not lest ye be judged', we can discuss it.

quote:
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.



YOU can go around condemning people all day, I prefer to offer a kind ear and let God do the rest.


B50...what would you say to a child molester?


Are you seriously equating a child molester to homosexuals? Child molestation has an innocent victim. The child. Homosexuals are mutual consenting individuals. Children being forced to have sex with ANY gender is a crime as it should be. What is wrong with you? Do you really think its the same thing?
quote:
Originally posted by WH:

All men may be created equal, its what happens after creation that counts. Why you brought this up behooves me...it is neither here nor there with our discussion.

i disagree. i treat people with equality, and that peice of paper is one of the reasons why. not the only reason, and not even the main reason, but a contributing factor.


quote:

Yes I think sexual perversion is real. Now you are trying to insert "hate' into the discussion, please don't be dishonest. Where did I say I hated them?


sorry. was just going on the things you've posted and the way you've phrased things in the past. perhaps i was wrong.

quote:

I can only go by what you are posting. It sure appears you are in support of homosexuality, at least your postings dictate as much. To make it simple, I will ask...are you in support of homosexuality?


i'm neither supportive of, nor against homosexuality.
i'm really pretty neutral about it. truly, i don't spend any time out of my day contempating homosexuality until i come here and see you and bill gray obsessing about it. i think it's possible you two spend more time thinking about gay men than most of the gay men that i know.
to me, the fact that they are gay isn't important. it just isn't a factor that i consider important.

when the subject is brought up, like now, then i have to say that i do believe that the line in the bible about for man to lie with a man is pretty explicit and i can't really see a way to wiggle around with it to make it mean anything other than what it says. but then , that's an issue between the gay man and God. i don't have a place in that conversation, and i won't pretend to.


quote:

Actually I think you expecting me to accept homosexuality as right is arrogant, and quite frankly sad, very sad that our country has come to this. As a straight man myself, what would your opinion be if I wanted to have a few more wives?


to answer the question first, my opinion would be that if you're crazy enough to want more than one, go right ahead. you might want to pick someplace else to live, tho, cause that's frowned on in this country. it's not my place to tell soemone else how to live their lives, whether i agree with it or not.

to reply to the other bit, i never asked you to accept anything, let alone expect. i don't really care any more about what you accept than i do about homosexuality. you're pretty much even with gay men in my book. what did irk me was that you seemed to be trying to tell me to make sure i raise my children as judgemental bigots, and that if i didn't i'm a horrible parent. that was a bit annoying, at first. but then i remembered who i was talking to, and was just amused instead.
You beat me to it Jank.

That 'child molester' is a pedophile. A pedophile is NOT a rational thinking individual. A pedophile may be heterosexual as well as homosexual.


What would I say to one? 50 years, no parole.

As for the case of homosexuals, WH, you and Bill make a great pair. You judge them, pass sentence and hang them all in one swoop. Then you brag about how great a Christian you are.


You're enough to make a Christian feel disgusted. I can only pray for people to understand that not all religious people behave or think like you two.
Just read the link. Lots of 'certifiable' research in that. No mention of anyone using condoms.

AIDS came from monkeys. Want to take a stab at that one WH?
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
something his son wont be able to do if he goes homosexual. Hie sons life will be cut by twenty years, he will be exposed to more diseases. He will be greatly more likely to commit suicide. Why would he not want his son to be made aware of this?


ROFL.
because, unlike you, i don't believe that someone can 'go homosexual'. i believe that either a person is or is not gay.
i understand that you think gay spreads by contact, but i can't help that. maybe you believe that elvis is still alive as well. i can't help what silly things you believe.
but i cna make sure my children aren't raised believe the same silly things that your kids were. i can only hope that as they grew up they learned that their father was a loon and have dismissed a lot of the crap you probably fed to them as gospel.

some of the stats you listed have soem truth to them, especailly the one about suicide. have you considered why it might be? could it be because frightend, confused young men and women unsure of themselves and their feelings are persecuted and harassed and made to feel abnormal and hated by people liek you. they are made to feel they have no worth and no place in this world by people liek you.

my son is aware of things like that - that bullies can make people feel so bad about themselves that they would rather die that face another day of it. he is aware that bullies come in all shapes sizes and ages. he is also aware that the one key thing that 90% of all bullies have in common is that they feel like outsiders and and freaks themselves, so they torture others to make themselves feel bigger, better, and more important.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just read the link. Lots of 'certifiable' research in that. No mention of anyone using condoms. AIDS came from monkeys. Want to take a stab at that one WH?

Hi B50,

Ground zero for AIDS, i.e., the first recognized, known, and recorded case of AIDS was a European Male Flight Attendant (I believe he was from the Netherlands) who was frequenting gay bars and bath houses in San Francisco. This is well documented.

Now, he may have played with monkeys in his travels -- but, he is the Ground Zero AIDS case for medical purposes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
@ jankinonya...



quote:
I taught my son's to respect others rights to live their lives as they choose.



Tell me then...why can't I live my life as I want?

As for the rest of your homosexual support...your sons just may not be all you think...you are who you associate with.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
When you get pass the 'Judge not lest ye be judged', we can discuss it.

quote:
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.



YOU can go around condemning people all day, I prefer to offer a kind ear and let God do the rest.


B50...what would you say to a child molester?


Are you seriously equating a child molester to homosexuals? Child molestation has an innocent victim. The child. Homosexuals are mutual consenting individuals. Children being forced to have sex with ANY gender is a crime as it should be. What is wrong with you? Do you really think its the same thing?



Both are a form of sexual perversion.

Here is a good read for you.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
You beat me to it Jank.

That 'child molester' is a pedophile. A pedophile is NOT a rational thinking individual. A pedophile may be heterosexual as well as homosexual.


What would I say to one? 50 years, no parole.

As for the case of homosexuals, WH, you and Bill make a great pair. You judge them, pass sentence and hang them all in one swoop. Then you brag about how great a Christian you are.


You're enough to make a Christian feel disgusted. I can only pray for people to understand that not all religious people behave or think like you two.



Oh, I sure thought you made this statement...

"The Bible says to hate the sin, not the sinner. I don't judge and I don't pretend to have the authority to do so."



BTW...I am not a Christian and have never claimed to be.
quote:
i disagree. i treat people with equality, and that peice of paper is one of the reasons why. not the only reason, and not even the main reason, but a contributing factor.



Absolutely laughable. Your morals are determined by what someone else says? I make my own decisions, no one tells me how I should think.


quote:
sorry. was just going on the things you've posted and the way you've phrased things in the past. perhaps i was wrong.


Actually, you got caught being dishonest. The quote feature is alive and well.


quote:
i'm neither supportive of, nor against homosexuality.
i'm really pretty neutral about it. truly, i don't spend any time out of my day contempating homosexuality until i come here and see you and bill gray obsessing about it. i think it's possible you two spend more time thinking about gay men than most of the gay men that i know.
to me, the fact that they are gay isn't important. it just isn't a factor that i consider important.

when the subject is brought up, like now, then i have to say that i do believe that the line in the bible about for man to lie with a man is pretty explicit and i can't really see a way to wiggle around with it to make it mean anything other than what it says. but then , that's an issue between the gay man and God. i don't have a place in that conversation, and i won't pretend to.


Well you were the one that brought God and the bible into this, not me. I could care less what the bible says...why you keep referring to this is beyond me.

Yes thenagel...you are supporting homosexuality. I have never seen a liberal that would admit what they are doing. Why do you think you have a right to condemn me for my views?

quote:
to answer the question first, my opinion would be that if you're crazy enough to want more than one, go right ahead. you might want to pick someplace else to live, tho, cause that's frowned on in this country. it's not my place to tell soemone else how to live their lives, whether i agree with it or not.

to reply to the other bit, i never asked you to accept anything, let alone expect. i don't really care any more about what you accept than i do about homosexuality. you're pretty much even with gay men in my book. what did irk me was that you seemed to be trying to tell me to make sure i raise my children as judgemental bigots, and that if i didn't i'm a horrible parent. that was a bit annoying, at first. but then i remembered who i was talking to, and was just amused instead.


Oh...I see...homosexuality IS NOT frowned upon in this country...is that what you think? You brought your son into this...not me. This statement from you is really the kicker...

quote:
it's not my place to tell soemone else how to live their lives, whether i agree with it or not.



Why are trying to tell me how to live my life then? You my friend are a liberal hypocrite. Any time you feel like it you can retract the lie you have perpetrated on me with the "HATE" references. I doubt you are man enough to do that though.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just read the link. Lots of 'certifiable' research in that. No mention of anyone using condoms.

AIDS came from monkeys. Want to take a stab at that one WH?


Now you are in support of beastiality?
quote:
Oh...I see...homosexuality IS NOT frowned upon in this country...is that what you think?



Well, black people are frown upon in this nation, too by ignorant people. Your point is?
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just read the link. Lots of 'certifiable' research in that. No mention of anyone using condoms. AIDS came from monkeys. Want to take a stab at that one WH?

Hi B50,

Ground zero for AIDS, i.e., the first recognized, known, and recorded case of AIDS was a European Male Flight Attendant (I believe he was from the Netherlands) who was frequenting gay bars and bath houses in San Francisco. This is well documented.

Now, he may have played with monkeys in his travels -- but, he is the Ground Zero AIDS case for medical purposes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Try again Bill.


What type of virus is HIV?

HIV is a lentivirus, and like all viruses of this type, it attacks the immune system. Lentiviruses are in turn part of a larger group of viruses known as retroviruses. The name 'lentivirus' literally means 'slow virus' because they take such a long time to produce any adverse effects in the body. They have been found in a number of different animals, including cats, sheep, horses and cattle. However, the most interesting lentivirus in terms of the investigation into the origins of HIV is the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV) that affects monkeys.
So did HIV come from an SIV?
It is now thought that HIV came from a similar virus found in chimpanzees.

It is now generally accepted that HIV is a descendant of a Simian Immunodeficiency Virus because certain strains of SIVs bear a very close resemblance to HIV-1 and HIV-2, the two types of HIV.

HIV-2 for example corresponds to SIVsm, a strain of the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus found in the sooty mangabey (also known as the White-collared monkey), which is indigenous to western Africa.

The more virulent, pandemic strain of HIV, namely HIV-1, was until recently more difficult to place. Until 1999, the closest counterpart that had been identified was SIVcpz, the SIV found in chimpanzees. However, this virus still had certain significant differences from HIV.
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
You beat me to it Jank.

That 'child molester' is a pedophile. A pedophile is NOT a rational thinking individual. A pedophile may be heterosexual as well as homosexual.


What would I say to one? 50 years, no parole.

As for the case of homosexuals, WH, you and Bill make a great pair. You judge them, pass sentence and hang them all in one swoop. Then you brag about how great a Christian you are.


You're enough to make a Christian feel disgusted. I can only pray for people to understand that not all religious people behave or think like you two.



Oh, I sure thought you made this statement...

"The Bible says to hate the sin, not the sinner. I don't judge and I don't pretend to have the authority to do so."



BTW...I am not a Christian and have never claimed to be.


I am not judging your purpose in life and whether you will have an eternity in Heaven or Hell, I am making the statement that your views disgust me, just like any racist disgust me.
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just read the link. Lots of 'certifiable' research in that. No mention of anyone using condoms.

AIDS came from monkeys. Want to take a stab at that one WH?


Now you are in support of beastiality?


You're as warped as Bill.
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ jankinonya...



quote:
I taught my son's to respect others rights to live their lives as they choose.



Tell me then...why can't I live my life as I want?

As for the rest of your homosexual support...your sons just may not be all you think...you are who you associate with.


No one is stopping you from living your life as you want.....unless that means taking rights away from other American's. Then we got a problem.

My sons are wonderful men. I am proud of them in every way. If they had been homosexual that would have been fine with me. They know that and would have no reason to hide it from me. You don't catch homosexuality like a cold for goodness sake. If so we all would be. I am sure even you have came in contact with one in your life time, whether you knew it or not. What about yours...do you think with the attitude you have towards people who are different (or so you say) than you that your daughters would feel they could tell you something like "I am a lesbian"..? I seriously doubt it.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Oh...I see...homosexuality IS NOT frowned upon in this country...is that what you think?



Well, black people are frown upon in this nation, too by ignorant people. Your point is?


How stupid. You are inadvertently saying you frown on black people.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
You beat me to it Jank.

That 'child molester' is a pedophile. A pedophile is NOT a rational thinking individual. A pedophile may be heterosexual as well as homosexual.


What would I say to one? 50 years, no parole.

As for the case of homosexuals, WH, you and Bill make a great pair. You judge them, pass sentence and hang them all in one swoop. Then you brag about how great a Christian you are.


You're enough to make a Christian feel disgusted. I can only pray for people to understand that not all religious people behave or think like you two.



Oh, I sure thought you made this statement...

"The Bible says to hate the sin, not the sinner. I don't judge and I don't pretend to have the authority to do so."



BTW...I am not a Christian and have never claimed to be.


I am not judging your purpose in life and whether you will have an eternity in Heaven or Hell, I am making the statement that your views disgust me, just like any racist disgust me.


Your views disgust me. It is really low to try to bring racism into this. What has that got to do with this?

Oh I know...you don't have anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ jankinonya...



quote:
I taught my son's to respect others rights to live their lives as they choose.



Tell me then...why can't I live my life as I want?

As for the rest of your homosexual support...your sons just may not be all you think...you are who you associate with.


No one is stopping you from living your life as you want.....unless that means taking rights away from other American's. Then we got a problem.

My sons are wonderful men. I am proud of them in every way. If they had been homosexual that would have been fine with me. They know that and would have no reason to hide it from me. You don't catch homosexuality like a cold for goodness sake. If so we all would be. I am sure even you have came in contact with one in your life time, whether you knew it or not. What about yours...do you think with the attitude you have towards people who are different (or so you say) than you that your daughters would feel they could tell you something like "I am a lesbian"..? I seriously doubt it.


My daughters are well aware of how the life cycle works.

Since you are so interested in rights...what happened to my right to live a life free of sexual perversion and perverted sexual influence perpetrated by the govt.
Originally posted by WH:
quote:


Absolutely laughable. Your morals are determined by what someone else says? I make my own decisions, no one tells me how I should think.


no, my morals are as i choose them. to pretend that nothing or no one has any influence on my view of morality is just silly. surely you aren't suggesting that you came out of the womb with a pre set conception of right and wrong and that it never changed as you grew. then again, that might explain a few things about you.

quote:
sorry. was just going on the things you've posted and the way you've phrased things in the past. perhaps i was wrong.

Actually, you got caught being dishonest. The quote feature is alive and well.


did i? how is that? i made a presumpton and then apologized for it. this is dishonest how?



quote:

Well you were the one that brought God and the bible into this, not me. I could care less what the bible says...why you keep referring to this is beyond me.


another mistaken assumption on my part, i guess. generally when someone is as vehmently anti-gay as you are, it's typical for them to say 'but the bible tells us to hate ***s!'
of course, it's also typical for the person arguing with them to pull out the old ' well, the reason you hate them so muc his because you're gay and can't admit it even to yourself, so you overcompensate with hatred."
but i'm not going there. i don't go there. i don't understand why in this day it isn't possible to just be a hetro male. your either gay, afraid that your gay so you end up a homophobe, or closeted gay and tryign to cover your tracks so people don't find out.
i don't think you're secretly gay. i do think you're oddly obsessed with gay men, but that doesn't make you gay, it just makes you weird.
i apologized for assuming your feelings towards homosexuality were based on the bible.

quote:

Yes thenagel...you are supporting homosexuality. I have never seen a liberal that would admit what they are doing. Why do you think you have a right to condemn me for my views?


i see. so because i don't condemn homosexuality, i support it? i'm either with you or against you, with no room for a middle ground?
i reject that as stupid. i'm also not a liberal. neither am i conservative. or rather, i'm a little of both.
i don't condemn you for your views. your views condemn you as an ignorant fear-monger. 60 years ago there were many people exactly like you, but then they were the ones putting the signs that said 'whites only' in their shop windows. they did it because they KNEW ' the colored' were the downfall of american society. today, that's all a thing of the past (except for a few pathetic holdouts) and the new target of fear and hate are the gays. eventually, that will be over as well, and we can start takeing steps towards real civilization.
eventually, a person will be judged for what they can offer and what they are capable of, and not for their color, their gender, or their partner.

quote:


Oh...I see...homosexuality IS NOT frowned upon in this country...is that what you think? You brought your son into this...not me. This statement from you is really the kicker...


i didn't say it wasn't.
and excuse me, but...

quote:

Posted 04 June 2010 07:24 PM
@ thenagel...


How does your son learn right from wrong?
Posts: 411 | Location: Huntsville Al. | Registered: 15 November 2009

yes, you most certainly did bring my son into this.


quote:



Why are trying to tell me how to live my life then? You my friend are a liberal hypocrite. Any time you feel like it you can retract the lie you have perpetrated on me with the "HATE" references. I doubt you are man enough to do that though.


i'm not trying to tell you how to do anything. i couldn't possibly care any less what you do or how you live. i'm not exactly sure how you could think that i was?
all i've said is that i won't be teaching my children the same messed up rules you taught yours. if that is telling you how to live your life, then so be it.
how can i retract anything, when your words prove what you claim to be a lie?

ok. i'm tired of this, and tired of you. i've laughed at your posts before, but until now i never realized what a tired old joke you were.
quote:
Originally posted by WH:


Yes thenagel...you are supporting homosexuality. I have never seen a liberal that would admit what they are doing. Why do you think you have a right to condemn me for my views?


It's your lucky day!!! I'm a liberal and I freely admit to supporting homosexuality! Woohoo! Now you can check that off you list of "nevers"

As for condemning you for your views.. That is our right as American citizens. You seem to have no problem condemning homosexuals as is your right too. No one is trying to force you into a homosexual life style for goodness sake.



Why are trying to tell me how to live my life then? You my friend are a liberal hypocrite. Any time you feel like it you can retract the lie you have perpetrated on me with the "HATE" references. I doubt you are man enough to do that though.[/QUOTE]

Please show us how anyone tried to tell you how to live your life? As far as I have read you were the only one telling me and thenagel that our children would somehow suffer if we did not teach them to think as you did. Oh yeah and the "hate reference has already been addressed. Thenagel told you a few post back that if he had misinterpreted your post then he was in fact wrong. Get over it. However I will say and I will not retract that you are obviously a bigot. You have yet to tell us why you think its any of your business or concern if 2 consenting adults have sex. Regardless of their gender. So far you have said its not because of religion or the constitution only that it somehow bothers you that men have sex with men. Why? Its their right as Americans to love who ever they want. I feel compelled to say as long as they are consenting adults due to the fact that you keep trying to equate child molesters to homosexual men. One has a victim the other has fun....not the same thing by a long shot.

You can think whatever you want to about this it really doesn't matter. This country will soon make it legal for gays to marry and they already have all other rights that you and I have so regardless of your opinion it just really doesn't matter. I guess what I am saying is, think how you want, live how you want, believe what ever you want just don't try and take away others rights to do so or else I and many others will be there to defend them.

Now you can go back to thinking about men entering other men.........its your right. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
You beat me to it Jank.

That 'child molester' is a pedophile. A pedophile is NOT a rational thinking individual. A pedophile may be heterosexual as well as homosexual.


What would I say to one? 50 years, no parole.

As for the case of homosexuals, WH, you and Bill make a great pair. You judge them, pass sentence and hang them all in one swoop. Then you brag about how great a Christian you are.


You're enough to make a Christian feel disgusted. I can only pray for people to understand that not all religious people behave or think like you two.



Oh, I sure thought you made this statement...

"The Bible says to hate the sin, not the sinner. I don't judge and I don't pretend to have the authority to do so."



BTW...I am not a Christian and have never claimed to be.


I am not judging your purpose in life and whether you will have an eternity in Heaven or Hell, I am making the statement that your views disgust me, just like any racist disgust me.


Your views disgust me. It is really low to try to bring racism into this. What has that got to do with this?

Oh I know...you don't have anything else.


OK, I should have said discrimination, but its the same thing. You hate an entire group of people based on an arbitrary point. You hate all homosexuals, regardless of who they are. Same as racism or any other form of discrimination. I'm glad my views disgust you, that shows me that I'm doing the right thing. If you agreed, I would have to do a whole of rethinking.

Enjoy your life and stop trying to dictate to others.
@ B50M


quote:
OK, I should have said discrimination, but its the same thing. You hate an entire group of people based on an arbitrary point. You hate all homosexuals, regardless of who they are. Same as racism or any other form of discrimination. I'm glad my views disgust you, that shows me that I'm doing the right thing. If you agreed, I would have to do a whole of rethinking.

Enjoy your life and stop trying to dictate to others.


Why must you insist that I hate homosexuals? I have stated several times in this thread that is not the case. Are you always this dishonest?
@ jankinonya...

I must admit you had me fooled . I now see that you are a homosexual.

After reading some of your other postings and seeing how you are bigoted against Christians, it is all coming together now. I am used to homosexuals using some pretty underhanded tricks.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Oh...I see...homosexuality IS NOT frowned upon in this country...is that what you think?



Well, black people are frown upon in this nation, too by ignorant people. Your point is?


Sofa King you are too funny. Come back when your intellect matures.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just read the link. Lots of 'certifiable' research in that. No mention of anyone using condoms. AIDS came from monkeys. Want to take a stab at that one WH?

Hi B50,

Ground zero for AIDS, i.e., the first recognized, known, and recorded case of AIDS was a European Male Flight Attendant (I believe he was from the Netherlands) who was frequenting gay bars and bath houses in San Francisco. This is well documented.

Now, he may have played with monkeys in his travels -- but, he is the Ground Zero AIDS case for medical purposes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Try again Bill.


What type of virus is HIV?

HIV is a lentivirus, and like all viruses of this type, it attacks the immune system. Lentiviruses are in turn part of a larger group of viruses known as retroviruses. The name 'lentivirus' literally means 'slow virus' because they take such a long time to produce any adverse effects in the body. They have been found in a number of different animals, including cats, sheep, horses and cattle. However, the most interesting lentivirus in terms of the investigation into the origins of HIV is the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV) that affects monkeys.
So did HIV come from an SIV?
It is now thought that HIV came from a similar virus found in chimpanzees.

It is now generally accepted that HIV is a descendant of a Simian Immunodeficiency Virus because certain strains of SIVs bear a very close resemblance to HIV-1 and HIV-2, the two types of HIV.

HIV-2 for example corresponds to SIVsm, a strain of the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus found in the sooty mangabey (also known as the White-collared monkey), which is indigenous to western Africa.

The more virulent, pandemic strain of HIV, namely HIV-1, was until recently more difficult to place. Until 1999, the closest counterpart that had been identified was SIVcpz, the SIV found in chimpanzees. However, this virus still had certain significant differences from HIV.


Rumor has it the Chimpanzee was a willing partner though... Big Grin
Hi B50,

You are right. This article does indeed show that the HIV virus did originate from monkeys and chimps:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Origin Of AIDS And HIV -- And The First Cases of AIDS
http://www.avert.org/origin-aids-hiv.htm

The origin of AIDS and HIV has puzzled scientists ever since the illness first came to light in the early 1980s. For over twenty years it has been the subject of fierce debate and the cause of countless arguments, with everything from a promiscuous flight attendant to a suspect vaccine programme being blamed. So what is the truth? Just where did AIDS come from?

The first recognised cases of AIDS occurred in the USA in the early 1980s (more about this period can be found on our History of AIDS page). A number of gay men in New York and California suddenly began to develop rare opportunistic infections and cancers that seemed stubbornly resistant to any treatment. At this time, AIDS did not yet have a name, but it quickly became obvious that all the men were suffering from a common syndrome.

The discovery of HIV, the Human Immunodeficiency Virus, was made soon after. While some were initially resistant to acknowledge the connection (and indeed some remain so today), there is now clear evidence to prove that HIV causes AIDS. So, in order to find the source of AIDS, it is necessary to look for the origin of HIV, and find out how, when and where HIV first began to cause disease in humans.

What happened in 1999?

In February 1999 a group of researchers from the University of Alabama announced that they had found a type of SIVcpz that was almost identical to HIV-1. This particular strain was identified in a frozen sample taken from a captive member of the sub-group of chimpanzees known as Pan troglodytes troglodytes (P. t. troglodytes), which were once common in west-central Africa.

The researchers (led by Paul Sharp of Nottingham University and Beatrice Hahn of the University of Alabama) made the discovery during the course of a 10-year long study into the origins of the virus. They claimed that this sample proved that chimpanzees were the source of HIV-1, and that the virus had at some point crossed species from chimps to humans.

Their final findings were published two years later in Nature magazine2. In this article, they concluded that wild chimps had been infected simultaneously with two different simian immunodeficiency viruses which had "viral sex" to form a third virus that could be passed on to other chimps and, more significantly, was capable of infecting humans and causing AIDS.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My original understanding of the origin seems to have come from early reporting which was not altogether accurate, as shown in thie article:

History Of AIDS: 1987-1992
http://www.avert.org/aids-history87-92.htm

In the autumn, a book by Randy Shilts called "And the Band Played On'"was published, which chronicled the early years of the AIDS epidemic.35 Shilts' book made an important contribution to documenting the history of AIDS, but his view of "the facts about AIDS," as well as his opinions, differ greatly from others on a number of occasions.

Shilts was the first to identify a French-Canadian flight attendant called Gaetan Dugas as "Patient Zero." Shilts claimed that Gaetan Dugas played a key role in the early spread of AIDS in America, and the story of "Patient Zero" was widely publicised by the media. But there never was a Patient Zero.

"There's no Patient Zero. It's lots and lots people moving around from New York to San Francisco, and the rest of the world. If there ever was an original Patient Zero, it would have been back in the mid-Seventies. But there isn't an original Patient Zero." -- Andrew Moss Quote from "The AIDS Epidemic in San Francisco: the medical response, 1981-1984," Volume II, an oral history conducted 1992, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 1996

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
I am used to homosexuals using some pretty underhanded tricks.


My, my ,this is a pretty interesting statement from someone who is NOT bigoted against homosexuality.
In my lifetime, I have noted some widespread heterosexual lies/adultery/perversion and disgusting behavior too. Are you saying homosexuals are more akin to be "deceitful".

PS- And Sofa was making a smart statement, by the way- uneducated/stupid people also consider black people to be "looked down" upon. ALL men are created equal. Some folks just don't understand the meaning of EQUAL.
quote:
My, my ,this is a pretty interesting statement from someone who is NOT bigoted against homosexuality.
In my lifetime, I have noted some widespread heterosexual lies/adultery/perversion and disgusting behavior too. Are you saying homosexuals are more akin to be "deceitful".




Did I say homosexuals are more deceitful? Just read what I say...don't change what I say to fit your agenda.


quote:
PS- And Sofa was making a smart statement, by the way- uneducated/stupid people also consider black people to be "looked down" upon. ALL men are created equal. Some folks just don't understand the meaning of EQUAL.



Your statement is stupid and uneducated. Racists come in all shapes and forms, not just the stupid and uneducated. Sofa King is trying to tie homosexuality in with racism...that is very unfair to people that have been discriminated against because of the color of their skin. This is one of those "underhanded" techniques I referred to.


Why are you trying to violate my constitutional right to speak my opinion?

You my friend are a bigot against people like me that believe in the family.
Discrimination against gay people is akin to racism. African Americans were (and are) discriminated against because of the color of their skin, something they cannot do anything about. I know the homophobes on here do not believe it, but you are either gay or you are not and there isn't a thing you can do to change who you are. So essentially, gays are discriminated against by being born that way.
Sorry I'm late replying, internet has been up and down like a yoyo.

Bill, thank you for realizing your error. Since we are now on the same page and the AIDS virus did come from chimps, that would throw out that 'God did it to punish homosexuals'.

WH, you have likened homosexuals to child molesters, and people who engaged in bestiality. I would say that shows a distinct hatred.

You may speak out all you want to, just remember we all have that same right to comment back.
quote:
Did I say homosexuals are more deceitful? Just read what I say...don't change what I say to fit your agenda.


What you said was:

quote:
I am used to homosexuals using some pretty underhanded tricks.

what did you mean by that?
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Bill, thank you for realizing your error. Since we are now on the same page and the AIDS virus did come from chimps, that would throw out that 'God did it to punish homosexuals'.

Hi B50,

I have never believed that God punishes people for being gay. Through the effects of our own sins; we punish ourselves. If I were a non-believer who took drugs or got drunk -- and, because of this action I have an accident and am maimed; this is not God punishing me, this is my own action causing me harm. Yet, if I then become a believer -- I am forgiven -- but, I am still a maimed believer.

God does not punish anyone for being gay. However, a person who is living an active homosexual lifestyle cannot be a Christian -- for the two are polar opposites. A person can fool himself into believing he is living a Christian life; but, he is not. A person can find churches which will tell him his homosexual lifestyle if okay with God -- but, that church and its leaders are misleading this person.

Gay theologians will attempt to rewrite the Genesis account of Sodom saying that their sin is really being inhospitable -- but, that theologian is lying to himself and to all who follow him.

Just as a Christian believer cannot be possessed by demonic spirit; a Christian believer cannot live a homosexual lifestyle.

The person who is living an active homosexual lifestyle is punishing himself by denying Jesus Christ and by not being born again. As Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:3, "You must be born again to see the kingdom of God" -- and a person living a homosexual lifestyle is not born again.

Therefore, he is bringing a self imposed condemnation, i.e., punishment upon himself. He is punishing himself by condemning himself to live eternally with Satan, rather than living eternally with God.

Yet, up until that last breath -- that self imposed punishment can be reversed if this person will sincerely turn from the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ, i.e., repent and believe. But, one must pray that this last breath does not come unexpectedly -- before this person has a chance to repent and believe.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Images (1)
quote:
Originally posted by David L.:
Discrimination against gay people is akin to racism. African Americans were (and are) discriminated against because of the color of their skin, something they cannot do anything about. I know the homophobes on here do not believe it, but you are either gay or you are not and there isn't a thing you can do to change who you are. So essentially, gays are discriminated against by being born that way.



Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Sorry I'm late replying, internet has been up and down like a yoyo.

Bill, thank you for realizing your error. Since we are now on the same page and the AIDS virus did come from chimps, that would throw out that 'God did it to punish homosexuals'.

WH, you have likened homosexuals to child molesters, and people who engaged in bestiality. I would say that shows a distinct hatred.

You may speak out all you want to, just remember we all have that same right to comment back.



All three...child molester, bestiality and homosexual are all form of sexual perversion. That is a fact. Why must you insist there is hate involved?


Trust me...I WILL speak out all I want... Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Did I say homosexuals are more deceitful? Just read what I say...don't change what I say to fit your agenda.


What you said was:

quote:
I am used to homosexuals using some pretty underhanded tricks.

what did you mean by that?



No time for teaching basic reading comprehension...try again in a year or two.
Right-o. I know exactly what you meant. And it was indeed quite ugly.
My reading comprehension skills are quite able, thank you, Sir. I was giving you an opportunity to change the statement....
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Bill, thank you for realizing your error. Since we are now on the same page and the AIDS virus did come from chimps, that would throw out that 'God did it to punish homosexuals'.

Hi B50,

I have never believed that God punishes people for being gay. Through the effects of our own sins; we punish ourselves. If I were a non-believer who took drugs or got drunk -- and, because of this action I have an accident and am maimed; this is not God punishing me, this is my own action causing me harm. Yet, if I then become a believer -- I am forgiven -- but, I am still a maimed believer.

God does not punish anyone for being gay. However, a person who is living an active homosexual lifestyle cannot be a Christian -- for the two are polar opposites. A person can fool himself into believing he is living a Christian life; but, he is not. A person can find churches which will tell him his homosexual lifestyle if okay with God -- but, that church and its leaders are misleading this person.

Gay theologians will attempt to rewrite the Genesis account of Sodom saying that their sin is really being inhospitable -- but, that theologian is lying to himself and to all who follow him.

Just as a Christian believer cannot be possessed by demonic spirit; a Christian believer cannot live a homosexual lifestyle.

The person who is living an active homosexual lifestyle is punishing himself by denying Jesus Christ and by not being born again. As Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:3, "You must be born again to see the kingdom of God" -- and a person living a homosexual lifestyle is not born again.

Therefore, he is bringing a self imposed condemnation, i.e., punishment upon himself. He is punishing himself by condemning himself to live eternally with Satan, rather than living eternally with God.

Yet, up until that last breath -- that self imposed punishment can be reversed if this person will sincerely turn from the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ, i.e., repent and believe. But, one must pray that this last breath does not come unexpectedly -- before this person has a chance to repent and believe.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Dang it.
this sucks.
but i have to admit, publically, that i acctually don't find anything in this post of bills to disagree with.
he isn't belittling homosexuality, or threating them with hellfire, or calling them sick or perverted or anything, or condeming them.
he just points out that be bible forbids active homosexuality,(which it does) and that if you choose to ignore it, it can prevent you from going to heaven. (which is true, if you believe in that sort of thing)
Granted, he took a long time to say it, and threw some scripture in there too.

what is happening to the world, when I agree with a post about homosexuals with Bill?
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Bill, thank you for realizing your error. Since we are now on the same page and the AIDS virus did come from chimps, that would throw out that 'God did it to punish homosexuals'.

Hi B50,

I have never believed that God punishes people for being gay. Through the effects of our own sins; we punish ourselves. If I were a non-believer who took drugs or got drunk -- and, because of this action I have an accident and am maimed; this is not God punishing me, this is my own action causing me harm. Yet, if I then become a believer -- I am forgiven -- but, I am still a maimed believer.

God does not punish anyone for being gay. However, a person who is living an active homosexual lifestyle cannot be a Christian -- for the two are polar opposites. A person can fool himself into believing he is living a Christian life; but, he is not. A person can find churches which will tell him his homosexual lifestyle if okay with God -- but, that church and its leaders are misleading this person.

Gay theologians will attempt to rewrite the Genesis account of Sodom saying that their sin is really being inhospitable -- but, that theologian is lying to himself and to all who follow him.

Just as a Christian believer cannot be possessed by demonic spirit; a Christian believer cannot live a homosexual lifestyle.

The person who is living an active homosexual lifestyle is punishing himself by denying Jesus Christ and by not being born again. As Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:3, "You must be born again to see the kingdom of God" -- and a person living a homosexual lifestyle is not born again.

Therefore, he is bringing a self imposed condemnation, i.e., punishment upon himself. He is punishing himself by condemning himself to live eternally with Satan, rather than living eternally with God.

Yet, up until that last breath -- that self imposed punishment can be reversed if this person will sincerely turn from the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ, i.e., repent and believe. But, one must pray that this last breath does not come unexpectedly -- before this person has a chance to repent and believe.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Sorry but I don't believe a word of this. The Bible condemns many things - including divorce - but it is funny how that little transgression gets swept under the carpet.

I guess you also feel that all those people in foreign countries are going to hell because they are not Christians and practice other religions.

I don't buy it and furthermore, I don't believe in hell either.
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
@ jankinonya...

I must admit you had me fooled . I now see that you are a homosexual.

After reading some of your other postings and seeing how you are bigoted against Christians, it is all coming together now. I am used to homosexuals using some pretty underhanded tricks.


LMAO!!! Big Grin I know that you think this is some how an insult to me, but you would be wrong.

How have homosexuals fooled you in the past WH? I'm curious why you made that statement. What does the word underhanded mean to YOU?


You think that child molesters and homosexuals are the same thing. If that is not hate I don't know what is. I personally HATE child molesters. Are you saying you don't? If you think they are the same thing and you say you don't hate homosexuals then am I to deduce that you also don't hate a child molester? Anyone that could hurt a child like that is a monster and I wouldn't have a problem ending their miserable lives myself . As adults we are responsible for protecting our young and innocent. Homosexuality is so far removed from child molestation that it really makes me angry that you would try to make any common link between the two. I will say again one has an innocent victim and the other is between consenting ADULTS. You have the right to "dislike" homosexuals, but please stop cheapening the very real damage that child molesters do to children by saying its the same thing. I am sure that if you ask a child who had been molested if they wanted to participate in what happened to them they would tell you no. It's just not the same thing and by saying it over and over just makes you look like either and uncaring, thoughtless animal or an ignorant fool. Which is it?

Did you know that there are those that consider oral sex a sexual perversion? I don't think so but I do wonder where you stand on that issue,seeing as how you seem to be so sure about what constitutes a sexual perversions. I do believe it is against the law in Alabama. It was a few years ago, but I haven't kept up with it so they could have taken that off the books now.
quote:
I guess you also feel that all those people in foreign countries are going to hell because they are not Christians and practice other religions.

Sadly, a lot of the Christian followers do believe that. And I know they will quote every verse to back it up.

WH, you seem to be unable to distinguish what a crime is. Child molestation is a crime, pedophilia is a crime, rape is a crime, murder is a crime.

Homosexuality is NOT a crime, it may be considered a sin by religion, but not a crime.

Genetics studies have shown there is a genetic component to homosexuality, so you would have to say being born is a sin.

As for perversion, that is a matter of one's own view. Is a threesome perversion, how about a stripper, Playboy, Playgirl, thong underwear, see through shirts?

As long as it's not illegal, perversion is in the eye of the beholder.
quote:
How have homosexuals fooled you in the past WH? I'm curious why you made that statement. What does the word underhanded mean to YOU?


Yes, Jan- I'm curious about that statement too. Weird..........
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Just as a Christian believer cannot be possessed by demonic spirit; a Christian believer cannot live a homosexual lifestyle.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


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