quote:
Originally posted by one who posts:
quote:
if the immigration laws had been enforced there wouldn't have been a DUI.


Sorry. There is no way in heaven or hell that you could prove that. There is no fool proof, 100% border plan.


You're correct. It's hard to prove something would not happen. Let me re-phrase that. If this particular man had been sent back to Mexico, the chances of him being involved in this accident in Virginia would be slim. Is this statement true?
While there is no 100% fool proof border plan, any plan that would improve border security would be better than what we have now or we could just throw up our hands and say to hell with it and make what was once an illegal act legal. We've done it before we can do it again.
I can't believe what I'm hearing. I can't believe there are taxpaying citizens of this country arguing over numbers in statistics. Who cares? The illegals are here illegally! It's very simple. It doesn't matter if someone believes or doesn't believe birth or crime numbers, you have to be a fool to not see that there are too many of them and we have a problem. Why don't some people get it? It's the same mindset as Geraldo had when he said that illegals commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens. What the #$%&? As Glenn Beck stated, "unless 101% of American citizens commit crimes, Geraldo was dead wrong" Illegal immigrants have a 100% crime rate! They all committed a crime coming here! Duh!

I do agree with EdEkit also, however. We need stiff penalties for people who employ them. No prospect of success, no illegals. They wouldn't come here if they thought their lives would be worse than in Mexico. They are here because they think it will be bettter.

I do think he left out one part though. What do you do to the ones that still come here? They have broken a law (thus the term illegal) by coming here and there must be punishment. This I don't have an answer to. I don't want to pay for putting them in our jails and support them there. Of course I don't want to pay to just to return them either; they'll only come back. There has to be some significant punishment to serve as a deterent to them.

If you have a mouse problem because you have food lying around, the first thing you do is clean up the food, which removes the reason for them coming in. I agree with EdEkit on that. However when they still come looking for more, you kill them to prevent it from recurring. Now we can't do that with people, but there has to be some punishment. What that is, I don't know.
You are right aubfire, I did not address the problem of those who would still come. There is a reason. When you have food lying around you have a lot of mice. When you take away the food, there are FEWER mice. Fewer mice, more manageable problem.

One of the Constitutional principals is called Ex Post Facto. That is a legal term that says you may not prosecute a person for a crime that was not illegal when he committed the act. It also means that you cannot prosecute with a penalty that is heavier than the penalty when the crime was committed. At the moment there are statutes and penalties in place for both illegal workers and their employers. The first step in getting the food off the floor is PROSECUTING EMPLOYERS. Full extent of the law prosecutions with the existing statutes. The second step is cleaning up the remaining mice.

Illegal immigration is an ongoing violation. Today there is a specified Penalty. Tomorrow that penalty could be raised to include a ten thousand dollar fine and a year in jail. TODAY'S illegal cannot be prosecuted with tomorrow's law. Pass the law, either give a period of time for departure, or publicize the progress of the law as it moves through the Congress. Give the illegals the chance to leave the house. Those who don't go, punish. I don't think we have a moral right to put a felony penalty on a misdemeanor, if the misdemeanor was committed before the felony penalty was instituted.

Except for a few ignorant racists, no one objects to what I am proposing SO FAR. There are difficulties with the next step. There may be serious consequences on Tourism, and other commercial operations within the country. There is also the problem of asylum.

Wikipedia reports these statistics. Up 20 million people are in the US illegally. They either entered without clearing customs and immigration checks, or they overstayed their visa or changed their status. That is 20 million people who should GO HOME TODAY. A small group, numbering in the high hundreds or low thousands are seeking asylum. By law they have only two avenues open. Admission as permanent residents or deportation to their Country of origin.

Roughly seven million people are working illegally in the USA. (I have been guilty of accepting the vastly inflated figure of 12 million or 20 million but it is a mistake I will not make again.) A small percentage of them are "inadvertent" illegals. They started working on a proper visa and failed to renew it. These people are routinely found, and generally fined for their misstep, and allowed to continue their residence. The same applies to students who are still in school but failed to renew their visa's. Another small percentage are people who completed their education before the student visa expired, and took jobs, or have taken work to finance their education. It seems unfair to penalize an employer if the violation was innocent and unintentional.
For the sake of argument, say that leaves 6 million clearly illegal workers. That number is not only manageable, but it is about equal to the number of people seeking work at the moment.

I think the problem can be solved without granting permanent amnesty. A law, with a 90 day implementation delay, making it a felony, punishable by imprisonment to hire an undocumented worker, or to work without documentation, applied to Personnel managers, their supervisors, the company's general manager, and the worker; A method for allowing correction of prior violations during that period to retain employees with a demonstrated vital position in the company; and no penalty for people who either resume their legal status or leave the country voluntarily. In the same, or separate, legislation, reform allowing immigration without regard to country of origin or just a simple repeal of the quotas now in place, and strict enforcement now and in the future.
EdEkit, I've been reading many of your posts for a while. Your opinions differ from mine on quite a few occassions but this is not one of them. This is what I think debate should be about. Not only did you completely keep emotion out of it, as many cannot seem to do, you offered a clear, concise discussion of the topic at hand. Thank you for a great post. I agree one hundred percent with what you say here. I too have learned to question any statistic offered since if you dig deep enough they either promote the views of their creator, or they have been twisted by others along the way to promote their views. I agree that illegals, and illegal immigration is a problem we can handle. Our leaders must choose to handle it, however. I also believe that it can solved without permanent amnesty. In no way to I believe anyone can or should be punished for crime that wasn't illegal when it was committed, nor do I believe we can just enact legislation with immediate consequences for those in violation. Everything you have suggested here is not only sensible, reasonable, and fair; it is also doable. We just need to find some leaders who are willing to address problems like this and take care of our great country.
I wasn't baiting. I was assuming you'd read the entire thread. History - in that no one came to this county as a legal alien; Humanity - in that it doesn't take into consideration that to which we are sending our fellow humans back. We have to be humans first. It's not so simple because humanity has to figure into motives.
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Originally posted by DHS-86:
This will be a first, but I agree with O'Reilly to some extent. I don't believe he was saying the Mexican should have been deported because he was DUI, I think he meant he should have been deported after the first encounter with the police when they found him to be ILLEGAL. That is what Geraldo didn't get. I understand that Bill tries to spin everything his way, but his point was valid on this. Yes, those girls could have been killed by another drunk driver, but if this illegal alien had been deported when he was found to be illegal, they would not have been killed by this drunk driver.

From what my future father-in -law , who lives on the mountion south of Russellville, tells me ,the illegal Mexicans try very hard to stay out of any trouble that would expose them for what they are.Deportation is the last thing they want.
OWP, I've read the thread twice. I'm not understanding what you mean by the statement that no one came here as a legal alien. There are proper channels for immigrants to come to this country, and many people do so every year. I know that everyone who WANTS in can't get here with this system, but that's life. If every human in the world could move about freely to whichever country was the most prosperous, I don't believe it wouldn't take long to see the pattern. Country becomes prosperous due to hard work and unity, people flock to it in droves, entitlement programs are abused, social unrest ensues, crime skyrockets, prosperity is destroyed, people flock to next prosperous country, repeat above. I know I'm oversimplifying things, but it sounds scarily familiar.

As for the humanity part, that is where I respectfully disagree. I personally feel that our fellow humans were there to start with; just because they are here now (as a result of an illegal act) I don't feel it is our duty or responsibility to help, aid, or even allow it. I know our opinions are just going to differ on this one, but I feel that if they didn't go through the proper channels to get here legally, then it is not our concern what they are sent back to. I know my opinion sounds cruel and uncaring, but I'm going to have to use the dreaded slippery-slope argument here. Is it honestly our duty as Americans to better every human's quality of life? Or just Mexicans? Maybe Iraqi's? When does it end, when we are all as impoverished as those we are trying help? Just doesn't seem possible to me. Just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by aubfire1:
OWP, I've read the thread twice. I'm not understanding what you mean by the statement that no one came here as a legal alien. There are proper channels for immigrants to come to this country, and many people do so every year. I know that everyone who WANTS in can't get here with this system, but that's life. If every human in the world could move about freely to whichever country was the most prosperous, I don't believe it wouldn't take long to see the pattern. Country becomes prosperous due to hard work and unity, people flock to it in droves, entitlement programs are abused, social unrest ensues, crime skyrockets, prosperity is destroyed, people flock to next prosperous country, repeat above. I know I'm oversimplifying things, but it sounds scarily familiar.

As for the humanity part, that is where I respectfully disagree. I personally feel that our fellow humans were there to start with; just because they are here now (as a result of an illegal act) I don't feel it is our duty or responsibility to help, aid, or even allow it. I know our opinions are just going to differ on this one, but I feel that if they didn't go through the proper channels to get here legally, then it is not our concern what they are sent back to. I know my opinion sounds cruel and uncaring, but I'm going to have to use the dreaded slippery-slope argument here. Is it honestly our duty as Americans to better every human's quality of life? Or just Mexicans? Maybe Iraqi's? When does it end, when we are all as impoverished as those we are trying help? Just doesn't seem possible to me. Just my opinion.


I take it that you don't support the war. That would be the only way to fully play out that argument since we're in Iraq trying to make it "better."

As for history, go back far enough and you'll see, from a native American standpoint, our ancestors didn't just take their land, they murdered them and took their land. Are you saying that they came here illegally and committed attrocious acts of hatred and violence just so we can keep others from being able to come here?

Yes, as you pointed out, you do sound cruel and heartless. Until Americans see themselves as humans first and then countrymen, our world will continue on its downward spiral.
No I don't support the war. I did't support it to start with, and I certainly don't support it now.

I'm aware that our ancestors took what we have now from the Native Americans. If we want to play the guilt game for everything our ancestors have ever done wrong, we will be here a long time. I don't believe in apologies from people who didn't do wrong to people who weren't wronged. I feel they are wasted words and wasted time. I think we could be using our time and thoughts more productively to better ourselves here and now. In fact, I am part Native American, so I guess I would be apologizing to myself.

And, I think most of us do see ourselves as humans first, then countrymen. Yes it hurts to see people thoughout the world suffering in poverty and filth. I feel sorry for them and pray for them. I don't feel that putting ourselves in the same situation in the name of helping others and feeling good is really going to help anything. I also think there is a happy medium to most everything. There is one fact in all this: we cannot help everyone.

As I said, just my opinion, and I respect yours as well. We just see things differently.
quote:
Originally posted by Go Nads:
One who post and EdKit, you are an idiot as is Geraldo! O'Reilly is correct and the left wing, open borders Geraldo is wrong. As more criminal aliens cross the border the more dangerous it will become for us. We have an estimated 20 million criminal aliens in the USA and it is scary ! We don't need idiots like Geraldo and you rationalizing for them.

The director of the movie " A Chrsitmas Story " was also killed by an illegal alien's reckless driving recently.

Your idiot president Bush and the rest of or crooked government has recently made it legal for Mexican trucks to run or streets and highways unchecked. We are living in dangerous times!

When you sling the term BIGOT or RACIST you show your ignorance.
Each day thousands of people get a new driver's license, at age 16. Each day thousands of people turn 21 and are permitted to become drunk.
Each day drunk drivers take lives on the highways. Alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes kill someone every 31 minutes and nonfatally injure someone every two minutes (NHTSA 2006). You mentioned a few who were in the county illegally.
In 2005, nearly 1.4 million drivers were arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol or narcotics (Department of Justice 2005). That’s less than one percent of the 159 million self-reported episodes of alcohol–impaired driving among U.S. adults each year (Quinlan et al. 2005).
Each year, alcohol-related crashes in the United States cost about $51 billion (Blincoe et al. 2002).
Among motorcycle drivers killed in fatal crashes, 30% have BACs of 0.08% or greater (Paulozzi et al. 2004).

full details: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drving.htm

The issue, as Geraldo correctly pointed out is DRUNK DRIVING, NOT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

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