Hi all,

 

This has become comical.  It is simply a matter of choice.  The judge gives the criminal a choice:  Door A (church one day a week) -- or Door B (jail).  The criminal is completely FREE to choose either door.  How, in anyone's mind, can that be considered coercion? 

 

In the same way, God gives all people a simple choice, a "free will" choice:  Door A (heaven) -- or Door B (hell).  Everyone is FREE to choose either door.  God does not coerce anyone.  He allows everyone to make their own "free will" choice. 

 

The only stipulation:  When one dies, the choice he/she made in this life -- he/she will have to live with for ETERNITY.  But, when it is all boiled down -- IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

 

Sweet and simple.  Choose Door A (eternal life) -- or choose Door B (eternal death)!

 

For the criminal:  Choose Door A (church one day a week) -- or choose Door B (jail)!

 

God is awesome!  Only a truly loving God, and judge, would ALLOW people to make their own choice.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

As comical as you bill? It's a choice yes, but a stupid choice. It IS the same as your goofy "free gift" with all the strings attached. And it's not right to only give a person the choice of jail or church, and they won't be able to do it. BTW, got any more stories about the presidential things obama did before he was president??

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

There's so many ways to go with things like this. For instance, the victim of the person's crime should have a say in it, and there would probably be a lot of people that thought just sending them to church wasn't justice. 

A new alternative sentencing program offering first-time, nonviolent offenders a choice of a year of church attendance or jail time and fines.

 

I wouldnt mind something like this for someone who broke into my car or someone who got a DUI.  If they dont agree with the program, chose jail time (which is what you would have received had this program not been available, on my dime may I add......)

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

As comical as you bill? It's a choice yes, but a stupid choice.  It IS the same as your goofy "free gift" with all the strings attached.  And it's not right to only give a person the choice of jail or church, and they won't be able to do it.


Hi Jennifer,

 

Which is better -- to have a choice of Door A (church one hour a week) or Door B (jail) -- or, to have a choice of Door A (jail) or Door B (jail)?  

 

Keep in mind, these are people who have been convicted of a crime.  The judge is, in no way, obligated to give them ANY choice.  Out of the goodness of his heart, he is offering them an alternate, much more lenient choice.  Would it have been better for the judge to just say, "Go to jail!" -- no alternative?

 

Be honest, Jennifer.  If you had a choice of spending one hour a week in church or spending a few months in jail -- WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

 

Of course, you can give a cutesy, young militant athiest reply.  But, if it is in you -- for once, please give an honest, considered, sincere answer. 


Would you give up one hour a week to avoid spending months in jail?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Be honest, Jennifer.  If you had a choice of spending one hour a week in church or spending a few months in jail -- WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'd go to jail and wait on the ACLU to sue the pants off of them and get me a big old juicy cash settlement. Of course I could choose the church thing and scream and make rude comments all through the service but the money sounds better.

Originally Posted by gbrk:



So, if my personal suspicion, that I applied to a generic "some" that post on here, does not apply to you why do you take such pains to answer to it?  My feelings I expressed here, as you alluded to, were expressed on other subjects so naturally it wasn't tied just to this post or topic.  As for this topic and my assertion that it does not violate the Federal Constitution it is not forcing religion on anyone but rather offering it as a choice. ( A Choice ).  Some of you seem upset that was one choice and not offering community choice instead of Church.  Is this then not an issue for those electorate who elect the judge?  Seems like they are the ones who should have the say.  I still don't think it violates the constitution.  There is plenty going on in the Nation today that definitely does and at the federal level yet no one worries about that.

 

If I had meant my comments for any specific person I would have named them what intrigues me is how quick you dismiss that this could apply to someone here? 

 

We, I, other Christians are not looking for any special rights or privileges but there have been request, simple request, of some of the unbelievers or atheist to allow us to discuss a subject we wanted to discuss that was of a religious nature and in the Religion forum and do so un-occusted by the heckling or demeaning comments about how stupid we were for believing in in God or the Bible, yet that request is too much to expect for we don't have that right, apparently.  Some of us dare to be confrontational and defend our faith by speaking back and calling your actions out and daring to assume that possibly there may be some reason for those actions and yet again we are doing something terrible.  

Here is something you typed at the end, of your post.

 

 

 

That is what I fight against. Not the idea of the deity or the practices, but the encroachment of Christianity in places it has no business being. Got it?

 

You fight against the encroachment of Christianity in places it has no business?  No Place or where Christianity is not relevant?   Could there be an analogy here?   How many atheist and, adverse to Christianity and Religion, non-believers here in the Religion forum strongly protesting against anything Christian or Religious?  Demeaning remarks about anyone who takes a stand for Christ.  How about making entering any and every topic regardless of it's subject and if the subject is relevant in order to demean Christians and tell us how stupid we are or how stupid our God is and how silly our Bible is all while not believing in God or anything to do with Religion.

 


 

GK, I didn't say you were talking specifically about me. I do find it odd that you have followed 2 of my post (this one and one in another thread) with this same kind of analysis of what you believe non-believers feel and think. I was clarifying that as a non-believer myself, this assumption was not true about myself. I am unsure why you would think this about anyone I have seen here. Seems kind of odd that you believe you know what others personal motives or reasons for being here are. Since you seemed so off base, in my opinion, of what at least THIS atheist thinks and feels I felt the need to give you some real insight.

 

 

You were right about one thing up there you do not have the right to tell others what they can and can't say on this forum. You don't have the right to dictate who responds to a post or how they respond. If you put it out here on a public forum then others do have the right to have an opinion on what you say. If you don't like that then I suggest you stop posting things you are so sensitive about. ALL  of us are here to discuss religion. Not all of us have the same view. However, all of us have the right to voice our personal opinion. That is what is great about living in America!



 

We Christians start to fight for a right to discuss that which is near and dear to us and not be harassed for our Belief and we receive all kinds of accusations against us as if we are doing something wrong.  I make a suggestion that there might be a reason for these attacks or harassment and even though it doesn't apply to you and I specified no specific person yet look at the reactions?  Here you, above, make the statement that you are fighting against these Christians who encroach in areas we need not be.  Who makes that decision?  are the Christians who fit this description here?  If they are who area they?  If you aren't calling out anyone specifically then why be here saying such?  Interesting.

 

Who makes the decision you ask...the Constitution and the SCOTUS. Yes there are those Christians here. You are one, Bill would be another. I could name a few more but you two are in the lead when it comes to wanting to change our country into a theocracy. You would have us teach Creationism right along side real science in our public schools. You see nothing wrong with what these officials want to do in Bay Minette. Even though what they are doing is against our Nations Constitution and our State Constitution as well.

 

As for the last part of your post there in red.....I would like to ask you that question, if you aren't talking to me in your post about the "inner calling" then who specifically are you talking about. As I said this is twice you have followed one of my post with that same assumption, what is the reason behind that? I can't think of anyone that fits that description on this forum.

 

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

its not for punishment! maybe just maybe it will help to get their life on track.GOD is the only one that can help offenders,if they want his help.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, your god is NOT the only one or thing that helps people get their life on track. Millions of people live good productive lives, never commit crimes, without your god. And millions of people that go to church and believe in your god commit crimes all the time.

yes my GOD is good,this is where choices come in,even you have your choice, there will be a day coming when you can't say you were NOT told of MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!  IT'S YOUR CHOICE!! ALL YOU WROTE ISTRUE BUT ITS BY CHOICE    DUH!!!!!!!!!!!    HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN THSE PEOPLES HEART AND MINDS? I PRAY GOD HITS YOU ON THE HEAD AND KNOCKS SOME SENCE INTO YOU,I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL,BUT IT'S YOUR CHOICE.!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU CAUSE  MY GOD IS LOVE.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
<Omitted for space and to address the specific question without having to add the extra>

 

As for the last part of your post there in red.....I would like to ask you that question, if you aren't talking to me in your post about the "inner calling" then who specifically are you talking about. As I said this is twice you have followed one of my post with that same assumption, what is the reason behind that? I can't think of anyone that fits that description on this forum.

 

 

It was not directed to anyone specific.  If it was I would have named the individual I was accusing or suspecting of it.  It was a theory, a thought, a guess, a hypothesis, if you will, of attempting to reconcile the rationale of why some might take every opportunity to attack anything Christian or religious.  If it struck a nerve or you felt it directed at you personally then why would that be as there was no specific reference to you or anyone else?

 

Q: What is the reason of posting it then?  

 

A:  To see who would respond to it and see what responses I would get.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Be honest, Jennifer.  If you had a choice of spending one hour a week in church or spending a few months in jail -- WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'd go to jail and wait on the ACLU to sue the pants off of them and get me a big old juicy cash settlement. Of course I could choose the church thing and scream and make rude comments all through the service but the money sounds better.

 

 

I don't know Best....I might take the church for an hour. It might be fun. I still have the right to free speech (hopefully)  and I would not be a good little sheep. I would be the same person I am right now and ask questions and object to their mindlessly following a book that was written by bronze age men to control the masses. Amazing that some are still so easily controlled today.

 

I wish that some one who is on the side of the Bay Minette officials would answer the question of what about the rights of the non-believers? Can they choose to go to Atheist meetings instead?

 

What if they are already regular church goers....nothing in their life would change at all.

 

Really does not matter what we would do given such a choice. The real issue is that it is unconstitutional and it will be stopped. If they really want to help these people get them professional help. Most people who are committing crimes that would warrant jail time, probably need some mental health care.

 

Religion should be left out of the equation. Then there would be no problem. They could give them a choice between some kind of treatment and jail....but religion or jail, that is illegal.

i read another account that said the judges had been giving community service or jail time. It got very vague and never made it clear if they had done away with community service and put church in it's place, but that is kinda how it read. The question did come up about what choice would an atheist have.

Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
<Omitted for space and to address the specific question without having to add the extra>

 

As for the last part of your post there in red.....I would like to ask you that question, if you aren't talking to me in your post about the "inner calling" then who specifically are you talking about. As I said this is twice you have followed one of my post with that same assumption, what is the reason behind that? I can't think of anyone that fits that description on this forum.

 

 

It was not directed to anyone specific.  If it was I would have named the individual I was accusing or suspecting of it.  It was a theory, a thought, a guess, a hypothesis, if you will, of attempting to reconcile the rationale of why some might take every opportunity to attack anything Christian or religious.  If it struck a nerve or you felt it directed at you personally then why would that be as there was no specific reference to you or anyone else?

 

Q: What is the reason of posting it then?  

 

A:  To see who would respond to it and see what responses I would get.

 

 

___________________________________________________________

 

Since you have no one in particular in mind then I guess it is good that I answered it for you. As I said now you can stop worrying and speculating about such non-sense.

 

Now can we discuss the actual topic at hand? If you are not interested in really discussing this particular unconstitutional act on the part of those officials in Bay Minette, I will just skip over the rest of your posts.

 

Don't ya just hate when someone comes along and tries to derail a topic for no reason at all? I know you do, you have said so many times before. 

yes my GOD is good,this is where choices come in,even you have your choice, there will be a day coming when you can't say you were NOT told of MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!  IT'S YOUR CHOICE!! ALL YOU WROTE ISTRUE BUT ITS BY CHOICE    DUH!!!!!!!!!!!    HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN THSE PEOPLES HEART AND MINDS? I PRAY GOD HITS YOU ON THE HEAD AND KNOCKS SOME SENCE INTO YOU,I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL,BUT IT'S YOUR CHOICE.!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU CAUSE  MY GOD IS LOVE.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What choice? You godbots are insane. Your kind of "love" creeps me out.

<omitted so as to specifically address a specific comment>

 

Who makes the decision you ask...the Constitution and the SCOTUS. Yes there are those Christians here. You are one, Bill would be another. I could name a few more but you two are in the lead when it comes to wanting to change our country into a theocracy. You would have us teach Creationism right along side real science in our public schools. You see nothing wrong with what these officials want to do in Bay Minette. Even though what they are doing is against our Nations Constitution and our State Constitution as well.

 

<additionally omitted material as it was addressed under a separate post above this one>

 

 

I can't speak for Bill but you Judge wrongly.  It may be your opinion but you are wrong and I submit form much of your opinion, regarding me, out of a bias/prejudiced against Christians who are vocal and defend our faith.

 

Absolutely and equivalently FALSE!  I do not want, desire, or condone a theocracy.  I have said and suggest this nation was formed as a Nation OF Christians and not a Christian Nation, there is a difference.  That you and other atheist owe your freedoms and right to be atheist and speak up to many Christians who helped form and write the Constitution to protect against a theocracy which they knew too well that their land in Europe had become.  So you  WRONGLY Judge me on that count and will never find a place that I have advocated making this country a theocracy or saying it should have been.

 

On this point you are 100% correct but not teaching a particular doctrinal stance but rather teaching that many people, throughout history and today, believe that life came from a deity or Creator that some people call God others Allah but that it came from a Being that was intelligent and all powerful by a process that science has yet to comprehend and understand and that many others believe life came from an intelligent source and was not an accident as evolution teaches it was.  Creation should be taught just as that.  Not specifying any particular denomination such as Catholic, Baptist, Methodist but that there are many (a very great many) who now and historically believe other than Evolution.  That Evolution is not universally accepted.  Many would eliminate all other possibilities other than their own belief or theory and by doing that give some legitimacy that cannot be debated against or confronted as potentially false.  There is NO CHOICE allowed among students they are instead force fed one theory only, using wrongly, the first amendment in order to legislate from the Judicial.


As for the Judge in Bay Minette I do not believe he violated the First Amendment or any state Constitution as he provided CHOICES for the guilty.  He didn't provide an alternate choice to Jail for Jail would be the normal and DEFAULT choice but he provided an alternate choice to Jail being Church at the convicted's choice denomination..   He didn't assign a specific Church.  He was a locally appointed or elected judge and it's up to the local folks there to decide if they agree with that without everyone else that is offended jumping in with their own pet biases.

Originally Posted by gbrk:

<omitted so as to specifically address a specific comment>

 

Who makes the decision you ask...the Constitution and the SCOTUS. Yes there are those Christians here. You are one, Bill would be another. I could name a few more but you two are in the lead when it comes to wanting to change our country into a theocracy. You would have us teach Creationism right along side real science in our public schools. You see nothing wrong with what these officials want to do in Bay Minette. Even though what they are doing is against our Nations Constitution and our State Constitution as well.

 

<additionally omitted material as it was addressed under a separate post above this one>

 

 

I can't speak for Bill but you Judge wrongly.  It may be your opinion but you are wrong and I submit form much of your opinion, regarding me, out of a bias/prejudiced against Christians who are vocal and defend our faith.

 

Absolutely and equivalently FALSE!  I do not want, desire, or condone a theocracy.  I have said and suggest this nation was formed as a Nation OF Christians and not a Christian Nation, there is a difference.  That you and other atheist owe your freedoms and right to be atheist and speak up to many Christians who helped form and write the Constitution to protect against a theocracy which they knew too well that their land in Europe had become.  So you  WRONGLY Judge me on that count and will never find a place that I have advocated making this country a theocracy or saying it should have been.

 

On this point you are 100% correct but not teaching a particular doctrinal stance but rather teaching that many people, throughout history and today, believe that life came from a deity or Creator that some people call God others Allah but that it came from a Being that was intelligent and all powerful by a process that science has yet to comprehend and understand and that many others believe life came from an intelligent source and was not an accident as evolution teaches it was.  Creation should be taught just as that.  Not specifying any particular denomination such as Catholic, Baptist, Methodist but that there are many (a very great many) who now and historically believe other than Evolution.  That Evolution is not universally accepted.  Many would eliminate all other possibilities other than their own belief or theory and by doing that give some legitimacy that cannot be debated against or confronted as potentially false.  There is NO CHOICE allowed among students they are instead force fed one theory only, using wrongly, the first amendment in order to legislate from the Judicial.


As for the Judge in Bay Minette I do not believe he violated the First Amendment or any state Constitution as he provided CHOICES for the guilty.  He didn't provide an alternate choice to Jail for Jail would be the normal and DEFAULT choice but he provided an alternate choice to Jail being Church at the convicted's choice denomination..   He didn't assign a specific Church.  He was a locally appointed or elected judge and it's up to the local folks there to decide if they agree with that without everyone else that is offended jumping in with their own pet biases.

__________________________________________________________________________

GK, the idea of a creator is religious. There is absolutely no science to support it. Regardless of what creation story you think should be taught it is none the less still religion. Do you understand what a theocracy is? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this subject. Evolution is science, Creationism is religion. It has been proven over and over in our courts.

 

It does not matter if you choose to believe it or not, the Bay Minette officials are violating the Constitution on both a federal and state level. Just because you keep saying it is not over and over does not change the truth that it is unconstitutional. He can't make the choice between jail and church of any denomination. Religion can not be used to govern in any way.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

i read another account that said the judges had been giving community service or jail time. It got very vague and never made it clear if they had done away with community service and put church in it's place, but that is kinda how it read. The question did come up about what choice would an atheist have.

 

I am going to see if I can find something that gives some more specifics.

DA,  If the Judge had not provide an option to Church then I would agree with you but he did.  Judges all over the country are given options to set some other punitive action other than jail.  Since the judge did provide an option other than going to Church I do not see it in violation of the Constitution.  We shall see how this plays out but I suspect since an option was provided, other than Church, it will not be overturned but I could be wrong. 

 

As for Creation or that debate as to if it should be taught.  The first settlers to this country came to escape a government which was dictated by the Church and they were religious communities whether pilgrims or puritans.  They were Christians who believed in God and many of the laws that the early communities were set up by were with respect to the Bible and.  Shall we not teach this part of History either?  Creation is a theory and although you want to cancel it out by calling it teaching religion your argument is an empty one.  No one is teaching students they have to  believe in Creation or teaching that Creation is superior to Evolution but rather I submit that Creation should be taught alongside as a competeting theory that most religious people believe and that most people throughout history accepted as the vehicle of life.  Teaching Creation, as a theory, is not teaching Religion but just that it is a competing theory.  The Students can then choose which they feel or believe is more valid or probable.  Evolutionist are wanting to eliminate all other theories, including Intelligent design.  No mention of Creation here but stating that Life was not accidental but came about by an unknown or non-identified or understood process brought about by or from an intelligent source (no deity mentioned) yet this also is taboo.  No Evolutionist want to eliminate ALL contrary theories thereby giving their accepted theory some measure of undeserved credibility as absolutely true.

 

Although it is not religious in nature or pertinent to this thread, other than relates to the Constitution or what is Constitutional.  Do you consider the Mandated Healthcare system, that requires citizens to purchase Health Insurance Constitutional?

Originally Posted by mary haddock:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

its not for punishment! maybe just maybe it will help to get their life on track.GOD is the only one that can help offenders,if they want his help.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, your god is NOT the only one or thing that helps people get their life on track. Millions of people live good productive lives, never commit crimes, without your god. And millions of people that go to church and believe in your god commit crimes all the time.

yes my GOD is good,this is where choices come in,even you have your choice, there will be a day coming when you can't say you were NOT told of MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!  IT'S YOUR CHOICE!! ALL YOU WROTE ISTRUE BUT ITS BY CHOICE    DUH!!!!!!!!!!!    HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN THSE PEOPLES HEART AND MINDS? I PRAY GOD HITS YOU ON THE HEAD AND KNOCKS SOME SENCE INTO YOU,I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL,BUT IT'S YOUR CHOICE.!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU CAUSE  MY GOD IS LOVE.

Welcome Mary,  Thank you for your testimony and input and welcome to the forum.  You can join the rest of us who cannot be addressed by our atheist and non-believing forum members without some demeaning or negative term. 

Hi Dark,

I had asked Jennifer, "Be honest, Jennifer.  If you had a choice of spending one hour a week in church or spending a few months in  jail -- WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?"

And, she, choosing to give a school-yard atheist reply, told me, "I'd go to jail and wait on the ACLU to sue the pants off of them and get me a big old juicy cash settlement.  Of course I could choose the church thing and scream and make rude comments all through the service but the money sounds better."

Then, you comment, "I don't know Best (Jennifer)....I might take the church for an hour.  It might be fun.  I still have the right to free speech (hopefully) and I would not be a good little sheep.  I would be the same person I am right now and ask questions and object to their mindlessly following a book that was written by bronze age men to control the masses.  Amazing that some are still so easily controlled today."

I will make several assumptions at this point:  (1) That both you and Jennifer are relatively young ladies, (2) that you both still live in the Shoals area, and, (3) that living in the Shoals area, if you WERE to go into a church -- odds are good that there would be many folks there that know you and whom you know -- very likely, many you call friends and neighbors.

Given that, would you REALLY disrupt a Sunday sermon, prayer, etc. -- stand up, and start demanding that the people in the church answer your questions?   What I am asking is -- would you really make such a spectacle (others might call it making an ass) of yourself if front of all those folks -- just to make sure that everyone knows you are not a believer?

Would you really have such low respect for your neighbors who do go to church to worship God -- that you would stand, make a spectacle of yourself, and demand answers -- while they are worshiping?

If so, I am sure that some of our Forum Friends living in the Shoals, who work at medical facilities, can recommend a good therapist where you can get psychological counseling.

But, I truly suspect that both you and Jennifer are doing what "youth combined with atheism" might cause -- posturing, huffing, and puffing.  I do not believe that either of you are of such low class, such low character, that you would really do this.  Therefore, it must be only posturing for the Religion Forum crowd.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

yes my GOD is good,this is where choices come in,even you have your choice, there will be a day coming when you can't say you were NOT told of MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!  IT'S YOUR CHOICE!! ALL YOU WROTE ISTRUE BUT ITS BY CHOICE    DUH!!!!!!!!!!!    HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN THSE PEOPLES HEART AND MINDS? I PRAY GOD HITS YOU ON THE HEAD AND KNOCKS SOME SENCE INTO YOU,I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL,BUT IT'S YOUR CHOICE.!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU CAUSE  MY GOD IS LOVE.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What choice? You godbots are insane. Your kind of "love" creeps me out.

your choice!!to do whatever you want and believe whatever you want.Do you even know what LOVE is?if you do then you might have a little spark of jesus in your soul. You don't know what kind of LOVE i have. WHAT are you afraid of? since you don't believe,just saying WHAT IF we as believers are right,would you want to go to hell??????  be honest.IT might would do you good to have a N.D.E.  I BELIEVE YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH.!!!!  AND deep down in your soul you know there is some master power,but you don;t know how to reach for it.ASK GOD he will listen to you. still love you,so does GOD.


 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Dark,


I will make several assumptions at this point:  (1) That both you and Jennifer are relatively young ladies, (2) that you both still live in the Shoals area, and, (3) that living in the Shoals area, if you WERE to go into a church -- odds are good that there would be many folks there that know you and whom you know -- very likely, many you call friends and neighbors.

Given that, would you REALLY disrupt a Sunday sermon, prayer, etc. -- stand up, and start demanding that the people in the church answer your questions?   What I am asking is -- would you really make such a spectacle (others might call it making an ass) of yourself if front of all those folks -- just to make sure that everyone knows you are not a believer?

Would you really have such low respect for your neighbors who do go to church to worship God -- that you would stand, make a spectacle of yourself, and demand answers -- while they are worshiping?

If so, I am sure that some of our Forum Friends living in the Shoals, who work at medical facilities, can recommend a good therapist where you can get psychological counseling.

But, I truly suspect that both you and Jennifer are doing what "youth combined with atheism" might cause -- posturing, huffing, and puffing.  I do not believe that either of you are of such low class, such low character, that you would really do this.  Therefore, it must be only posturing for the Religion Forum crowd.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

__________________________________________________________

 

So are you saying that if I ask questions and voiced my views it would be considered disruptive? Wow...so what are you supposed to do in church? Sit there and just keep silent, don't ask questions, if you don't believe then you are supposed to just pretend to believe? Have I got that right?

 

If that is true then I guess I would choose jail. Well honestly I guess it would depend how much time I would have to serve. If I was facing a long time away from my family and friends then I would probably pretend to go along with whatever insanity is required to stay out of jail. That is really a choice of the lessor of two evils. Hopefully in the free, democratic, secular nation of the USA that will never be something I will have to experience.

quote: Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Dark,  I will make several assumptions at this point:  (1) That both you and Jennifer are relatively young ladies, (2) that you both still live in the Shoals area, and, (3) that living in the Shoals area, if you WERE to go into a church -- odds are good that there would be many folks there that know you and whom you know -- very likely, many you call friends and neighbors.

Given that, would you REALLY disrupt a Sunday sermon, prayer, etc. -- stand up, and start demanding that the people in the church answer your questions?   What I am asking is -- would you really make such a spectacle (others might call it making an ass) of yourself if front of all those folks -- just to make sure that everyone knows you are not a believer?

Would you really have such low respect for your neighbors who do go to church to worship God -- that you would stand, make a spectacle of yourself, and demand answers -- while they are worshiping?

If so, I am sure that some of our Forum Friends living in the Shoals, who work at medical facilities, can recommend a good therapist where you can get psychological counseling.

But, I truly suspect that both you and Jennifer are doing what "youth combined with atheism" might cause -- posturing, huffing, and puffing.  I do not believe that either of you are of such low class, such low character, that you would really do this.  Therefore, it must be only posturing for the Religion Forum crowd.  God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,  Bill 

So are you saying that if I ask questions and voiced my views it would be considered disruptive? Wow...so what are you supposed to do in church?  Sit there and just keep silent, don't ask questions, if you don't believe -- then you are supposed to just pretend to believe?  Have I got that right?

 

If that is true then I guess I would choose jail.  Well honestly I guess it would depend how much time I would have to serve.  If I was facing a long time away from my family and friends then I would probably pretend to go along with whatever insanity is required to stay out of jail.  That is really a choice of the lessor of two evils.  Hopefully in the free, democratic, secular nation of the USA that will never be something I will have to experience.


Hi Dark,

 

If you were in a movie theater -- would you stand up and ask questions of the characters on the screen?

 

If you were in a live theater -- would you stand up and ask questions of the people in the cast?

 

Then, why would you want to be disruptive and do that in a Christian worship service?   Doing that would make you the Fred Phelps of the atheist clan.

 

Questions in a Christian fellowship are always welcomed.  However, there is a proper time and place to ask them.   If you disagree with what is being taught in the sermon; approach the pastor afterwards.  I have done this a number of times.

 

But, the best place to ask questions, to express doubts or misunderstandings, or to get clarifications -- would be in the Sunday School class or in a Bible study.   Those are designed to encourage comments and questions.  As a matter of fact, if I am leading a Bible study and no questions are asked and no one makes comments -- I have to wonder what I am doing wrong. 

 

The sermon is where the pastor teaches us.  Sunday Schools and Bible studies are where we have discussions.  And, quite frankly -- I learn more in Sunday School and Bible studies than I do from sermons -- just because everyone can ask questions and make comments.   I have seen our Sunday School class discussions get so involved that the class often went for two hours.  I have seen Bible studies go for two or three hours -- just because we get so involved in discussion.

 

But, Dark, like all things -- there is a proper time and place.  Unless, like Fred Phelps and his Westboro bunch -- your purpose is solely to disrupt and be a nuisance -- and not to learn.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

If so, I am sure that some of our Forum Friends living in the Shoals, who work at medical facilities, can recommend a good therapist where you can get psychological counseling.

But, I truly suspect that both you and Jennifer are doing what "youth combined with atheism" might cause -- posturing, huffing, and puffing.  I do not believe that either of you are of such low class, such low character, that you would really do this.  Therefore, it must be only posturing for the Religion Forum crowd.

 

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I really don't care what you think bill. You're not a very good example of an upstanding person and there is no reason for anyone to take anything you say about anything to heart. You have what I call preacher wannabe syndrome. If anyone resembles phelps it's you.

 

 If you were sent to an atheist meeting for, oh I don't know, let's say for "hate speech" against atheists, homosexuals and everyone else in the world that doesn't believe like you, what would you do? You'd try your best to take over, you'd be quoting your scriptures, you'd be telling them they're all wrong and that they chose to go to hell. The difference is that I or DA or anyone else would be attacked, most likely physically, for speaking up, but you wouldn't. Pal it's you that needs help.

 

The chance of me ever going to jail is almost non-existent. It wouldn't be for anything I did on purpose, it wouldn't be for anything serious, and given my "record" I highly doubt I'd be given any jail time. IF it happened and the only choice I was given was jail or church, I would go to jail, I would sue them, and I'd have good reason. One, most misdemeanors, according to sources I read, usually mean no jail time for the first and even second offense. So if a judge gave me the choice of jail or church for something that people don't usually even get sent to jail for, I'd be highly ******.  Also, as I posted earlier, from what I've read so far it appears they've done away with other options such as community service. IF they have, my question is why? That means what they are saying is this, "submit to indoctrination or go to jail for no good reason". Sound familiar?  And bill, when it comes to a religious group trying to force indoctrination I will speak up. It's not huffing or puffing or posturing. It's taking a stand. Don't like it? Too bad.

Originally Posted by mary haddock:

yes my GOD is good,this is where choices come in,even you have your choice, there will be a day coming when you can't say you were NOT told of MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!  IT'S YOUR CHOICE!! ALL YOU WROTE ISTRUE BUT ITS BY CHOICE    DUH!!!!!!!!!!!    HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN THSE PEOPLES HEART AND MINDS? I PRAY GOD HITS YOU ON THE HEAD AND KNOCKS SOME SENCE INTO YOU,I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL,BUT IT'S YOUR CHOICE.!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU CAUSE  MY GOD IS LOVE.

_______________________________

Do you know that typing in capital letters is a form of screaming at someone? Since you're a "Christian", I'll give you the benefit of doubt & assume you didn't know. If you do know, why would you want to scream at someone for having an opinion different than your own? Or why do it at all? Screaming will not get your point across, it just turns people away or at least it would me.

 

You pray God hits Best on the head because you believe she doesn't have any sense?? And after all that, you tell her you love her while screaming?  Real Christian of you, Mary.

Originally Posted by O No!:

Jennifer says: "The difference is that I or DA or anyone else would be attacked, most likely physically, for speaking up, but you wouldn't."

 

 Not much of a drama queen, are you?

 

_______________________________________________

 

I think she is just being a realist. Do you remember the things said and threatened to atheist for protesting putting a cross at the WTC memorial? That is the reality that atheist live in.

Bill said--But, Dark, like all things -- there is a proper time and place.  Unless, like Fred Phelps and his Westboro bunch -- your purpose is solely to disrupt and be a nuisance -- and not to learn.

 

 

I would not go with the sole intention of being disruptive, no. However I do believe that my questions and comments would not be welcome, so in the end it would probably be perceived as disruptive. 

 

Now if your choice was jail or a weekly Atheist meeting which would you choose and if you chose the atheist meeting would you sit quietly and learn?

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by O No!:

Jennifer says: "The difference is that I or DA or anyone else would be attacked, most likely physically, for speaking up, but you wouldn't."

 

 Not much of a drama queen, are you?

 

_______________________________________________

 

I think she is just being a realist. Do you remember the things said and threatened to atheist for protesting putting a cross at the WTC memorial? That is the reality that atheist live in.

___________________________________________________________________________

 

I still think you are over-dramatising. There are "things" like that said every day on blogs across America. Political, religious, even sports related. People SAY a lot of things that they would never DO in real life. I think if someone went into a church service and started yelling and disrupting the service, the most likely thing is that they would be arrested or taken in for psychiatric observation.

 

Originally Posted by Mr.Dittohead:

The point of the story is that going to church is punishment in the eyes of the law.  That gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. 

 

 

LOL it would definitely be punishment for me. It would be a hard choice to make really. As I said in an earlier post, it would depend on how much time in jail we are talking about.

Originally Posted by O No!:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by O No!:

Jennifer says: "The difference is that I or DA or anyone else would be attacked, most likely physically, for speaking up, but you wouldn't."

 

 Not much of a drama queen, are you?

 

_______________________________________________

 

I think she is just being a realist. Do you remember the things said and threatened to atheist for protesting putting a cross at the WTC memorial? That is the reality that atheist live in.

___________________________________________________________________________

 

I still think you are over-dramatising. There are "things" like that said every day on blogs across America. Political, religious, even sports related. People SAY a lot of things that they would never DO in real life. I think if someone went into a church service and started yelling and disrupting the service, the most likely thing is that they would be arrested or taken in for psychiatric observation.

 

 

 

I have been personally threatened in real life by a couple of Christians. I was not in their church disrupting their service either. I was having a conversation with them and others at a party of a mutual friends. Luckily there were other people there and they made them leave.

 

The only person who mentioned disrupting church services was Bill. I said I would be asking questions and voicing my opinion. Apparently that is considered a big no no in church. I did not know that, but that does explain a lot.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by O No!:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by O No!:

Jennifer says: "The difference is that I or DA or anyone else would be attacked, most likely physically, for speaking up, but you wouldn't."

 

 Not much of a drama queen, are you?

 

_______________________________________________

 

I think she is just being a realist. Do you remember the things said and threatened to atheist for protesting putting a cross at the WTC memorial? That is the reality that atheist live in.

___________________________________________________________________________

 

I still think you are over-dramatising. There are "things" like that said every day on blogs across America. Political, religious, even sports related. People SAY a lot of things that they would never DO in real life. I think if someone went into a church service and started yelling and disrupting the service, the most likely thing is that they would be arrested or taken in for psychiatric observation.

 

 

 

I have been personally threatened in real life by a couple of Christians. I was not in their church disrupting their service either. I was having a conversation with them and others at a party of a mutual friends. Luckily there were other people there and they made them leave.

 

The only person who mentioned disrupting church services was Bill. I said I would be asking questions and voicing my opinion. Apparently that is considered a big no no in church. I did not know that, but that does explain a lot.

__________________________________________________________________________

 

DA, I guess you aren't familiar at all with church services. As Bill said, the time and place for questions is in Bible study or Sunday School, or after the service is over.  One would no more stand up and ask a question DURING the service than they would during the school play. There is a program that is followed, and although the scripture readings, the sermon, and the hymns change every week, the order of things remains the same. The ritual and the reverance are so peaceful and beautiful to Christians. Jumping up and asking questions THEN would definitely be disrupting the service.

 

I don't know what to say about your experience at the party except to say that I MYSELF, have never even seen a Christian raise their VOICE when debating an atheist in real life. As a matter of fact, back when I was an atheist, I would get into heated debates with the Christians I knew. But the only one "heated" was myself. The Christians would just smile and say they "knew better", and their smugness about their beliefs made me angry. I realize NOW that it was not SMUGNESS, but inner security they exhibited.

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

There's so many ways to go with things like this. For instance, the victim of the person's crime should have a say in it, and there would probably be a lot of people that thought just sending them to church wasn't justice. 

****

 

Victims do not have any conclusive "say" in such matters and should not. A victim can be consulted by prosecutors as to whether the victim would be satisfied by a proposed plea bargain.  A victim can appear and speak at a sentencing hearing.  But the decision on sentencing is up to the court, not the victim.

quote: Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
I have been personally threatened in real life by a couple of Christians. I was not in their church disrupting their service either. I was having a conversation with them and others at a party of a mutual friends. Luckily there were other people there and they made them leave.

 

The only person who mentioned disrupting church services was Bill.  I said I would be asking questions and voicing my opinion.  Apparently that is considered a big no no in church.  I did not know that, but that does explain a lot.


Hi Dark,

 

And, you knew these people to be Christian because:  (1) They had a cross tattooed on their heads, or (2) They told you they are Christian?   I believe we are ALL aware that many folks will wear a Christian hat when they cannot even spell CHRISTIAN.

 

Dark, if you were in a court room during a trial -- would you KNOW that you are not to stand up and ask questions or make comments?  Yet, in a Christian worship service, where a pastor is in the pulpit giving a sermon -- you did not know that it is disruptive to stand up and make a nuisance of yourself?  Okay, if you say so.

 

As I said, if you have comments or questions -- approach the pastor or any of the church members AFTER the worship service -- or attend the Sunday School class or a Bible study where this is expected and accepted.  This would not be disruptive -- but, would be constructive.  But, then, one must ask -- which do YOU want to be:  disruptive -- or constructive?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I have been personally threatened in real life by a couple of Christians. I was not in their church disrupting their service either. I was having a conversation with them and others at a party of a mutual friends. Luckily there were other people there and they made them leave.

 

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It's never come to actual death threats, but there have been some that get all red in the face after they ask and I tell them I don't believe. Usually they ask if that means I'm an atheist, like they want to hear me say it, so I do, and any time it got heated was because of them not me. You can see the mask slip and you know that the "good christian" would like nothing more than to see you struck down right then. All that "I'm praying for you because that's what my god wants" is pure BS.

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