God At Center Of Our Lives -- Wanda Putman, Florence

It appears that wanda, just like bill, doesn't let facts get in the way of her opinions. I don't know who the "professional" was that she talked to, but first of all I'd ask how they know a child is not hearing about "right and wrong" at home. Secondly I'd ask what kind of "profound and intelligent professional" doesn't know that children can be taught right and wrong without a god being involved. (If that was their thoughts on the subject, wanda wasn't clear on that part). 

 Those freedoms being fought for include everyone's freedom and rights, not just the so called christian's. That's another thing wanda, as bill, can't get through their heads. Again, christians only want some people's rights defended. As far as the statement about being here safe and sound at home, how does wanda know? There are atheists in the military.  As far as crime and all the other things she cried about increasing I have to ask-Since christians way outnumber atheists who is to blame for raising those little criminals?  So wanda, read what's posted below, try to understand it and maybe you won't be prone to making statements that don't contain the facts.

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And, it began with MURRAY v. CURLETT.

The MURRAY case "kicked God out of our public schools" and violated the rights of religious speakers.

This claim is popular with religious right and other movements supporting organized school prayer. What was ended by MURRAY and other decisions, at least in theory, was the unfair practice of forcing students to participate in a sectarian religious ritual as part of the regular school day. The Supreme Court ruled that excusing students from the room who did not wish to participate was not an acceptable solution. The prayers that were recited usually reflected a particular Christian religious bias.

Students then, and now, have every right to pray on their own time, even at school. They may pray while riding the bus, before or after meals, while walking in corridors. They may also join with friends in voluntary prayer in settings where other students are not compelled to listen or participate. MURRAY v. CURLETT helped end the practice of having teachers or other school officials coordinate and even lead students in classroom prayer, thus creating a government endorsement of a particular religion, and religion in general.

https://atheists.org/Six_Myths_about_MMOH

While the crime rate had risen sharply in the late 1960s and early 1970s, bringing it to a constant all-time high during much of the 1980s, it has declined steeply since 1993. Several theories have been proposed to explain the cause.

1. The first is the rate of gun ownership and the increase in laws allowing concealed carry of guns. Gun ownership reached its lowest levels in the early 1990s [2] and at that time, the ability to carry a gun was very restricted. By 2010, 40 states had either implemented "Shall-Issue" concealed carry permit laws, or protected concealed carry unrestricted by permit.
2. Another hypothesis suggests a causal link between legalized abortion and the drop in crime during the 1990s.^[7]
3. Another possibility sometimes suggested is the introduction of the Three Strikes Law, which was first passed by Washington state in 1993, providing that felony offenders who committed a third offence receive life imprisonment. Other states that passed Three Strikes Laws include California, Colorado, Connecticut, Indiana, Kansas, Nevada, North Dakota, Arkansas, Georgia, and Maryland.

The year 2010 was overall the safest year in almost forty years. The recent overall decrease has reflected upon all significant types of crime, with all violent and property crimes having decreased and reached an all-time low. The homicide rate in particular has decreased 51% between its record high point in 1991 and 2010.

From 2000-2008, the homicide rate stagnated.^[8] While the homicide rate decreased continuously between 1991 and 2000 from 9.8 homicides per 100,000 persons to 5.5 per 100,000, it remained at 5.4-5.7 until 2009, when it dipped down to 5.0, and continued to drop in 2010 to 4.8.

Despite the recent stagnation of the homicide rate, however, property and violent crimes overall have continued to decrease, though at a considerably slower pace than in the 1990s.^[8] Overall, the crime rate in the U.S. was the same in 2009 as in 1968, with the homicide rate being roughly the same as in 1964. Violent crime overall, however, is still at the same level as in 1973, despite having decreased steadily since 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...in_the_United_States

Hi Jennifer,

Madelyn Murray O'Hair's son, William Murray, is a Christian who heads the Christian organization, Religious Freedom Coalition, in  Washington DC.  According to this article in Wikipedia, O'Hair, who joined with the ACLU in the lawsuit, was responsible for prayer, consequently God, being taken out of public schools in America.  In place of Positive Moral Values; since then schools have had to  teach Relative Moral Values in schools.  Relatives Moral Values teach, "If it feels right, or good, to you -- then, it is right."   So, if stealing, killing someone, raping, incest, bestiality, etc., feels good to you or seems right to you -- it is right.  Duh!

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William J. Murray

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Murray

William J. Murray is the chairman of the Religious Freedom Coalition, a non-profit organization in Washington, D.C., active on issues  related to aiding Christians in Islamic and Communist nations.

William is the son of Madalyn Murray O'Hair,[1] an United States atheist activist who came to national attention in Baltimore,  Maryland when she filed a lawsuit with the Supreme Court of the United States, saying that compulsory prayer and reading of the Bible in schools was unconstitutional.

Murray converted to Baptist Christianity in 1980.  His mother reportedly stated, upon learning of his conversion, "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times ... he is beyond  human forgiveness." [2]   He felt similarly negative toward her in his first book, My Life Without God, as he made allegations such as:  "She was just evil … She misused the trust of people. She cheated children out of their parents' inheritance." [3]  Bill also repudiated  his mother upon the occasion of her death, saying "I used to ask people to pray for my mother's salvation. I don't do that  anymore…. My mother was an evil person." [2]

William J. Murray is the author of several books including Let Us Pray and The Church Is Not For Perfect People.  His most recent  book is The Pledge: One Nation Under God, for which the foreword, "A Washington, DC insider," was written by Congressman Todd  Akin.

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Who should know the woman, and her actions, better than her own son?  By the way, in her atheist fervor, Madelyn Murray O'Hair turned her grandchildren, William Murray's children, against him and made them also devout atheists.  They were found murdered and dismembered (by people in O'Hair's own organization) along with their atheist grandmother.

What our children need to be taught in schools is Positive Moral Values -- which tell us that stealing, killing, etc., ARE wrong.   Enough of the Relative Moralism in our schools.  Should Positive Moral Values be taught only at home and not in schools?  Children are in school 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.  Where better for them to learn Positive Moral Values along with academic studies -- than in schools.  It  worked for me and my generation -- and it could have worked for your generation -- if O'Hair and the ACLU had not joined with a Liberal Supreme Court to remove God and prayer from our schools in 1963.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hi Jennifer,

Madelyn Murray O'Hair's son, William Murray, is a Christian who heads the Christian organization, Religious Freedom Coalition, in  Washington DC.  According to this article in Wikipedia, O'Hair, who joined with the ACLU in the lawsuit, was responsible for prayer, consequently God, being taken out of public schools in America.  In place of Positive Moral Values; since then schools have had to  teach Relative Moral Values in schools.  Relatives Moral Values teach, "If it feels right, or good, to you -- then, it is right."   So, if stealing, killing someone, raping, incest, bestiality, etc., feels good to you or seems right to you -- it is right.  Duh!

Well duh! What has that got to do with anything? My kids aren't taught that, I wasn't taught that, I don't believe you, so there. You and wanda still need to get your facts straight before you post. Doesn't matter what the son says, she did not get prayer taken out of schools. Read the decision or read the article in the link I provided. Lying about it won't make it so.

Madalyn Murray's lawsuit which resulted in the removal of compulsory Bible reading from the public schools of the United States has had lasting and significant effects. Until the lawsuit, it was commonplace for students to participate in many types of religious activities while at school, including religious instruction itself. Nonreligious students were compelled to participate in such activities and were not usually given any ability to opt out. The Murray suit was combined with an earlier case, so the Court might have acted without Madalyn's intervention. With the success of the lawsuit, the intent of the Constitution with regard to the relationship between church and state again came under critical scrutiny and has remained there to this day. While students do pray in public schools to this day, even in organized groups (such as "See You at the Pole"), the lawsuit disallowed schools to include prayer as a compulsory activity required of every student. The success of O'Hair's lawsuit led to subsequent lawsuits by Mormon and Catholic families in Texas in 2000 to limit compulsory prayer at school-sponsored football games. The Murray v. Curlett case was combined with the Schempp v. Pennsylvania case. Either case, standing alone, might have resulted in the reversal of standing practices. Likewise, victories won by the Amish and the Jehovah's Witnesses against state governments might well have resulted in the desired result even with no Warren court.

Removal of compulsory bible reading bill.

com·pul·so·ry <script type="text/javascript"></script> (km-pls-r)

You are right. Christians do out number atheists. That means they obviously out number them in the military. So that would mean the majority of the military is Christian. That means this country and you are being defended by a Christian majority, right?

Who should know the woman, and her actions, better than her own son?  By the way, in her atheist fervor, Madelyn Murray O'Hair turned her grandchildren, William Murray's children, against him and made them also devout atheists.  They were found murdered and dismembered (by people in O'Hair's own organization) along with their atheist grandmother.

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ONE granddaughter, Robin, and Jon, one of her sons. So tell me which children of williams were murdered.  And I don't know the complete history of his relationship with his mother, but it seems to me the break started over money after she cut him off. 

 And by "people" in her own organization bill?

In 1995 she was kidnapped and murdered, along with her son Jon Murray and granddaughter Robin Murray O'Hair, by former American Atheist office manager David Roland Waters in a long drawn out robbery.^[3]

ONE man bill, and he was a former office manager.

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What our children need to be taught in schools is Positive Moral Values -- which tell us that stealing, killing, etc., ARE wrong.   Enough of the Relative Moralism in our schools.  Should Positive Moral Values be taught only at home and not in schools?  Children are in school 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.  Where better for them to learn Positive Moral Values along with academic studies -- than in schools.  It  worked for me and my generation -- and it could have worked for your generation

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Just who are YOU to decide who is qualified to teach my children or other peoples children morals? My children and my family are as moral, or more, than you and your ilk.  You have lied and continue to lie on this forum. People aren't stupid bill. They see you for what you are and know what you try to do by spreading your lies and misinformation.

You are right. Christians do out number atheists. That means they obviously out number them in the military. So that would mean the majority of the military is Christian. That means this country and you are being defended by a Christian majority, right?

So what gingee? There are still atheists in the military. Men out number women. Does that mean that the women's service is any less? So what's your point?

Ms. O'Hair, as deplorable and combative a person as she was, was no player in the matter of the seminal decision of the Supreme Court concerning school prayer:

"With regards to school prayer, Madalyn Murray O’Hair played no role at all — not even a minor one. The decision which prohibited the state from sponsoring specific prayers in public schools was Engel v. Vitale, decided in 1962 by an 8-1 vote. The people who challenged the laws establishing such prayers were a mixture of believers and nonbelievers in New Hyde Park, New York, and O’Hair was not among them."

*             *               *                  *                  *       *

"Christian Right complaints about O’Hair allows them to attack the various court rulings by associating them with atheists, still one of the most reviled groups in America, without ever having to actually explain what is wrong with the rulings in the first place.

It is worth noting that, in his failed arguments before the Supreme Court in the case of Lee v. Weisman, U.S. Solicitor General Kenneth Starr openly accepted the validity of the Engel decision. When questioned by the justices, Starr clearly stated that classroom prayer compelled, led, or endorsed by a teacher is inherently coercive and unconstitutional. People who actually understand the law and the principle of religious liberty realize that the state has no business dictating prayer or readings from any group’s religious scriptures, but much of this hasn’t filtered down to everyone yet.

Source:  http://atheism.about.com/od/ch...hs/a/ohairprayer.htm

That is indeed correct.    The history of jurisprudence concerning public school prayer has been all too often and too conveniently perverted by those, primarily on the Christian right, who much prefer to ante up their wrong, incorrect, and false version of the matter, either stupidly or defiantly serving up blame to Ms. O'Hair for something  actually creditable to others.  This kind of manipulative propaganda flies in the face of the Holy Scriptures, which tell those who would be loyal to God and to Jesus Christ that they should, "Buy the truth and sell it not," (Proverbs 23:23)  and which powerfully advise the people of God that, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."  (John 8:32). On this and other forums, I have several times recited the truth of the matter concerning Ms. O'Hair's relationship (really non-relationship) to court-ordered cessation of government-controlled school prayer, but my submittals seem to have been ignored.  

I call upon those above, in this string, namely BILL and WANDA,  to leave off misrepresenting the role of Ms. O'Hair and to resolve from now on to be honest about this matter--having been advised of the TRUTH through the kind efforts of Yours Truly, Bestworking and Gingee--and to recant what they have posted falsely attributing to O'Hair a dispositive role in the Supreme Court's definitive case concerning prayer in the public schools. All who have an interest in such matters should carefully heed the words of Justice Hugo Black, who aut****d the majority (8-1) decision of the Court in Engel v. Vitale:

"It is neither sacrilegious nor anti-religious to say that each separate government in this country should stay out of the business of writing or sanctioning official prayers and leave that purely religious function to the people themselves and to those the people choose to look to for religious guidance."

You need to find better sources of information on Madelyn Murray O'Hair.  The two children murdered with her were William Murray's children, her grandchildren.  William's split with his mother was not over money, nor any material wealth -- for she had none.  Their split was over the fact that William became a Christian believer.

O'Hair tried to leverage her connection with the ACLU and with this infamous Supreme Court case -- into a career in politics.  But, no one wanted anything to do with her.  She died broke, virtually friendless, and pitiful as a human being.  Even her own son, a devout Christian, had stopped praying for her -- because she was so evil. 

And, Jennifer, in your fervor for your religion of atheism -- this is the woman you are raising as a champion for that atheism.  Even virtually all atheists, at least those with knowledge of the situation -- kept her at a longs arms length distance.  So, that shows that many atheists are still pretty intelligent folks.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

And, Jennifer, in your fervor for your religion of atheism -- this is the woman you are raising as a champion for that atheism.  Even virtually all atheists, at least those with knowledge of the situation -- kept her at a longs arms length distance.  So, that shows that many atheists are still pretty intelligent folks.

How am I "championing" her by disputing your claims against her? Come on bill, tell me. You've read how it came about, you should have read the decision. She was not the only one that sued. So come on sport, tell me how I'm championing her? In your fervor to lie you forget that the correct information is out there.

Once more bill:

Bodies Identified as Those of Missing Atheist and Kin

Forensics expert confirms that bones dug up at remote ranch in Texas were those of atheist leader Madalyn Murray O'Hair, her son, Jon Garth Murray, and her granddaughter, Robin Murray O'Hair; three had disappeared in 1995; officials say they believe three were killed and dismembered in Austin storage locker and their bodies dumped at remote ranch; 

You said her grandchildren were killed. I don't know who Robin's father or mother is, but I don't think she was william's daughter. You lied bill.

Murdered, madlyn, jon her son, and robin her granddaughter. I believe robin was jon's adopted daughter. So bill, do you have proof about your statement about williams children being killed?

Hi Jennifer,

I stand corrected.  The two victims murdered with Madelyn Murray O'Hair were her son, Jon, and her granddaughter, Robin (daughter of O'Hair's other son, William Murray).

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Madalyn Murray O'Hair Biography
http://www.who2.com/bio/madalyn-murray-ohair

As an activist for atheism, Madalyn Murray O'Hair was such a controversial figure that in 1964 Life magazine called her "the most hated woman in America."  O'Hair was one of the litigants in the case of Murray vs. Curlett, which led the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 1963 decision, to ban organized prayer in public schools.  The decision made O'Hair the country's most famous  atheist.  She founded the group American Atheists in 1963 and remained its leading spokesperson until 1995, when she and two of  her adult children vanished after leaving a note saying they would be away temporarily.  

The trio appeared to have taken with them at  least  $500,000 in American Atheist funds; one private investigator concluded that they had fled to New Zealand.  Eventually suspicion turned to David Roland Waters, an ex-convict who had worked at the American Atheist offices.  Police concluded that he and accomplices had kidnapped the O'Hairs, forced them to withdraw the missing funds, and then murdered them.  Waters eventually pled guilty to reduced charges and in January 2001 he led police to three bodies buried on a remote Texas ranch, which proved to be Madalyn Murray O'Hair and her children.

The children who disappeared with Madalyn Murray O'Hair were Jon Garth Murray, her son, and Robin Murray O'Hair, her granddaughter by another son, William.  O'Hair also had adopted Robin Murray, making her both her daughter and her grandchild.  O'Hair's son William announced his conversion to Christianity on Mother's Day in 1980 and became an outspoken evangelist for his new faith.

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God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, there was only one lawsuit Madalyn Murray O'Hair won on her own, & that was in 1963, against the Baltimore School System, which voted in her favor 8-1 to ban school prayer and label it "unconstitutional".

Those lawsuits to ban prayer in schools were supported by several organizations & though she may have been the most outspoken, Madalyn Murray O'Hair was not the only one that spoke out against it. I'm in no way supporting her but you act as though she was the main cause of it.

On October 7th of 1941, John Curtin became the 14th Prime Minister of Australia. Two months later, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Is John Curtin is to blame for U.S. involvement in WWII? Of course not!

No matter if  prayer is said in a classroom or not, it will have very little impact on the children in that classroom if their parents are not teaching those children a set of values at home.

How would you react to a Muslim offering prayer in school? Or a Asatruist, Voodooin, or any of the vast number of valid spiritual beliefs in the world? What you need to do is to stop trying to force your beliefs upon others.

Where does it say that you have to be a Christian to be able to love/be good to one another, share everything, & still live circumspectly with honor, trust, & goodness?

Where does it say there would be no more poverty, wickedness, or other problems if you’re a Christian?

Where does it say if you’re a not a Christian men won’t nurture women in any way, that women will just be objects to acquire or discard, that children won't be a nuisance, that Mothers won’t abandon their babies, that women won’t kill their babies before they’re born because they’re an additional inconvenience?

Will the entire human race would be wiped out if everyone is not a Christian?

Is a non-believer/Atheist the complete destruction of all that is good, wholesome, and worthwhile?

Am I supposed to believe a book that was not actually written down when events took place, has been doctored, edited & rewritten numerous times just in the past thousand years because you tell me you believe it?

Was this country not founded under the principle of religious freedom? Do I not have the freedom to be or not be a Christian w/o you or someone else trying to shove your beliefs down my throat? What if my beliefs are not the same as yours? What if I do not see scriptures to mean what you do? Who’s to say who’s right?

Do I not have the RIGHT to believe or not believe as I choose? You can say Sure, go to Hell. But is that your call to make? Who made you my judge? All will be judged & though you may fool a lot of people, if He exist, you won’t be able to fool God. Am I your judge? Of course not, just as you are not mine.

Hey miss semi!

Bill, that child of william's that you say his mother turned against him was abandoned by him as an infant. That is why she adopted her. BTW, william helped her in the lawsuit. Now which other children of his did she "turn against" him?  

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Please show us a source, a non-atheist source, for these claims.  Otherwise, they are just hot air blowing in the wind.

You have a habit of making grandiose claims -- but, ALWAYS without any source reference.  In most circles we call that "spitting into the wind."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

It's not "claims" bill. It's in the news reports and bios. What's your problem anyway that YOU can't freaking google? You're the one that lied and said she turned his kids against him, and that they were killed. It was her son and william's daughter that he abandoned as a child that were killed along with her. The "child" was a 30 year old woman at the time. Grandiose claims? No, facts. Give me ONE example of any claim I ever made I didn't back up. Just one. You are a liar. Now bill, tell me this, IF william hated his mother so much, why would he have allowed her to adopt his infant daughter????

You have a habit of making grandiose claims -- but, ALWAYS without any source reference.  In most circles we call that "spitting into the wind."

Come on bill, show me ONE claim I have ever made that I didn't back up. Just ONE.

The Lady Vanishes
March 2, 1997
© 1997 The Baltimore Sun Company, all rights reserved

Not a foreign dispatch, but a bizarre tale all the same, involving the notorious Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who was later found murdered

Snippet about william:

That wasn't as easy as you'd think. William had long since become atheism's prodigal son. His life began a downward spiral the moment his mother took the school prayer case to court. He was beaten up, pushed in front of a bus. He hit a policeman and ran from the law. He got his 17-year-old girlfriend pregnant, married her, then split up not long after their daughter was born in Hawaii.

The daughter was Robin, and when his wife left to go back to school he dropped Robin off at Madalyn's and took off in pursuit of high times. In the late '70s, he crash-landed at Alcoholics Anonymous, which steered him toward the Bible. He read it, even prayed some, but nothing stuck. 

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But it was too late to reclaim Robin. Madalyn had legally adopted her. By then Madalyn had also found, and lost, a second husband. Richard O'Hair had died in 1977. 

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On a recent morning, he eased back in a swivel chair in the basement office of his comfortable home in Garrisonville, Va., while a computer screen behind him endlessly scrolled the words "God is Faithful" in Gothic lettering. He spoke of his two daughters from later marriages, whose pictures hang on a nearby wall.

And he spoke of Robin.

Around 1981, when she was about 15, "I wrote a long letter apologizing for ever dropping her off at that house. After they refused to allow me any more communication with her, after the phones were slammed down, I have over the years sent her cards, sent her things, with no response. When e-mail became more accessible and I found her address, I figured, well, maybe she never got any of those letters. So I wrote a long explanation to her of how she got there and how I wished that wouldn't have happened. Again there was no response."

Then one day her e-mail address was no longer active. He never did hear a word.

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  There bill. HE abandoned her. Then when he wanted to crawl back into her life(probably wanting money) she wasn't having any of it. So looks like once more it's YOU making claims you can't support. Looks like he likes the women too, seeing as how he has other children from later marriages. Marriages, plural. He's as much a shyster as they come. His fight and falling out with his family was over money. Believe what you want, doesn't change the fact that you and wanda are posting false information. 

http://www.danfesperman.com/dispatches6.html

I do believe Bill has run away again, as he does when he can't answer our questions, or he's been proven to be wrong.

I thought it was funny that bill told wanda "Thanks for sharing this wisdom with us". What wisdom did wanda share? All wanda posted was false information and the usual whining. The scary part too, bill thinks parents should let people like him and wanda teach their children!