Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began four days ago titled "Who Created Hell?" -- our Friend, Crusty tells us, "I just find it interesting that God keeps changing his mind."

And, O No responds, "Crusty, when one is dealing with unpredictable human beings, one MUST be willing to change one's mind in order to deal with the changing conditions these unpredictable humans put themselves in."

Basically, what O No is telling Crusty is true, but it is explained in more detail below in the article by Don Stewart:


When God promises something to us He will complete His promise.  Some of the promises God has made to humankind are conditional, based upon humanity's response.  The prophet Jeremiah records God saying:

"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil -- I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.  And  the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good which I said I would benefit from it"  (Jeremiah 18:7-10).


Don Stewart has explained this issue very well; so, I will just let you read his what he has written about why  God Does Not Change:


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DOES GOD CHANGE?
Can Anything About God Change? (Immutability)
Don Stewart, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa
http://www.blueletterbible.org...t/stewart.cfm?id=356

 

Is it possible that God can change in His promises or in His character?  Can the laws that God has set down be changed?  Can we be assured that God will never change?

There Is No Change In God:

When one changes they usually change for better or worse.  Since God is absolute perfection no change for the better is possible since you cannot improve upon perfection.  The same holds true for changing for the worst.  Change is not possible with God.  He does not develop or grow.  He always remains the same.  Consequently there is no inconsistency in Him.

The Scripture makes it clear that God does not change in His character, purpose, His fairness toward humankind, or in His promises.  The technical term for this is immutability.  The Bible says.

"Do you not know?  Have you not heard?  The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth.  He will not grow tired or weary, and His understanding no one can fathom"   (Isaiah 40:28).

God's Character Is Unchanged:

The Bible insists that the basic character of God is not subject to change.  The psalmist said of God:

"You are the same, and your years will have no end"   (Psalm 102:27).

This promise is with respect to the guarantee of Israel's preservation.

In the Book of Malachi God declares:

"For I am the Lord, I do not change"   (Malachi 3:6).

In the context of Malachi, God is guaranteeing the preservation of the nation Israel.

The New Testament also says God does not change:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning"   (James 1:17).

God's Nature Is Unchanged:

God, by nature, is a Trinity consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  He has always been a Trinity and He always will be.  His basic nature will remain forever the same.

"You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed.  But you remain the same, and Your years will never end"   (Hebrews 1:12).

Because God's nature does not change, His character remains the same.  He has been and always will be completely righteous.  This means His dealings with humankind are always right; He is never unfair.

The Apostle Paul said of God:

"Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained"   (Acts 17:31).

God will judge humankind based upon the standard that He has set down.  God will not change those standards.  His judgment will be fair.

God's Purpose Does Not Change:

Scripture says that God does not change in His purposes.

"In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath"  (Hebrews 6:17).

Paul wrote.

"For though the twins (Jacob and Esau) were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls"  (Romans 9:11).

In the Book of Job we read.

"But He is unique and who can turn Him?  And what His soul desires, that He does"   (Job 23:13).

The psalmist wrote.

"The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations"  (Psalm 33:11).

Isaiah the prophet records God saying.

"I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.  I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please"  (Isaiah 46:10).

His Promises Do Not Change:

The Bible also testifies that God does not change in His promises.  The Lord said of Himself.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent"  (Numbers 23:19).

In First Samuel we read.

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man, that He should change His mind"  (1 Samuel 15:29).

Paul wrote to the church at Rome.

"For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable"  (Romans 11:29).

The Bible emphasizes that God is faithful to the promises that He has made to humankind.  The prophet Jeremiah said:

"Through the Lord's mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not, they are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness"   (Lamentations 3:22,23).

The New Testament also says that God will not deny His promises

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for He cannot deny Himself"  (2 Timothy 2:13).

He Has The Power:

God has the power to follow through with His unchangeable promises.

"Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had (has)power to do what He had promised (Romans 4:20,21).

Some Promises Are Conditional:

When God promises something to us He will complete His promise.  Some of the promises God has made to humankind are conditional, based upon humanity's response.  The prophet Jeremiah records God saying:

"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil -- I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.  And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good which I said I would benefit from it"  (Jeremiah 18:7-10).

God Is Not Inactive:

When we say God does not change we do not mean that He is a static, impersonal being.  God dynamically interacts with His creation.  Although God does not develop or grow, He is not inactive.  To the contrary, He is actively involved with humanity.

Although God's actions and dealings with humanity may vary or change, He does not change.  In His essential being He is always the same.  Human beings can change, God cannot.

Summary:

The Bible says that God will never change.  There are a number of specific ways in which the Bible says that God will remain the same.  First, there is His basic character – nothing about it will ever change.  Next are His purposes – they will remain constant.   The Bible also says that His fairness toward humankind will always be the same.  Finally we are told that His promises will all be  kept.  Therefore we can rest assured that God will remain the same.


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So, to conclude, no, Crusty -- GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.  But, we humans are very unpredictable and unreliable.  That human trait makes me so happy that He is a God of Love and Mercy -- and never changes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Jeremiah-29-11-PLANS-1b

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Original Post
Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Our perception of him certainly does.

 

Thirty years ago no one but a handful of people had ever heard of this pre-tribulation rapture.

 

Why is that? 

-----------------------

 

Because apparently, when ya wanna believe in something bad enough-Anything is possible.

quote:   Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Our perception of him certainly does.   Thirty years ago no one but a handful of people had ever heard of this pre-tribulation rapture.   Why is that?


Hi Winston,

 

Possibly, because that is as far back as your knowledge of the Bible extends -- or your church leaders.  But, if you will check with the Bible and early Christian writers in the first few centuries AD, you will find it there.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

 -- GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

No body said he did-------------------

Hi Vic,

 

It always amazes me how you geniuses can respond to a writing -- WITHOUT reading even the first sentence of the post.   Does that mean that you are psychic -- or psycho?

 

The very first sentence of my post was:

 

In the discussion I began four days ago titled "Who Created Hell?" -- our Friend, Crusty tells us, "I just find it interesting that God keeps changing his mind."


But, not wanting to be bothered with reading the first sentence -- you find one very obvious phrase and respond.  Does that make you smarter than Pavlov's dog -- or not?  I have voted!


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Our perception of him certainly does.   Thirty years ago no one but a handful of people had ever heard of this pre-tribulation rapture.   Why is that?


Hi Winston,

 

Possibly, because that is as far back as your knowledge of the Bible extends -- or your church leaders.  But, if you will check with the Bible and early Christian writers in the first few centuries AD, you will find it there.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

When did you first learn of the pre-tribulation rapture? 

quote:   Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Our perception of him certainly does.   Thirty years ago no one but a handful of people had ever heard of this pre-tribulation rapture.   Why is that?


Hi Winston,

 

Possibly, because that is as far back as your knowledge of the Bible extends -- or your church leaders.  But, if you will check with the Bible and early Christian writers in the first few centuries AD, you will find it there.   God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,   Bill

 

When did you first learn of the pre-tribulation rapture?


Hi Winston,

 

Using your logic -- Christianity did not exist until 1987, because I was not a Christian believer until then.  True, I knew virtually nothing about eschatology before 1991, when, during the Gulf War, our Bible study leader began to talk about the Rapture -- his discussion, inspired by the burning oil fields in Kuwait -- inspired me to begin to study eschatology.  And, I have studied it for the last twenty years.  But, again, using your logic -- the Rapture was not known before 1991.

 

No, my Friend, it has nothing to do with when you or I first learned about the Rapture.  It has to do only with when it was first taught -- and that is in the Bible, i.e., Paul -- and with the early church writers in the first and second century.   The PreTrib Rapture is taught in the Bible -- and it is the only Rapture scenario which makes sense -- Biblically.

 

Once again, you and I seem to be on the opposite side of the fence.  What does your church teach?  My Baptist church, and I, teach a PreTrib Rapture and a PreMillennial Second Coming of Jesus Christ to establish His 1000 year Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem.  Yes, there will be a 1000 year peaceful Theocracy -- and then ETERNITY.  Praise God!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Winston,

 

Possibly, because that is as far back as your knowledge of the Bible extends -- or your church leaders.  But, if you will check with the Bible and early Christian writers in the first few centuries AD, you will find it there.   God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,   Bill

 

When did you first learn of the pre-tribulation rapture?


Hi Winston,

 

Using your logic -- Christianity did not exist until 1987, because I was not a Christian believer until then.  True, I knew virtually nothing about eschatology before 1991, when, during the Gulf War, our Bible study leader began to talk about the Rapture -- his discussion, inspired by the burning oil fields in Kuwait -- inspired me to begin to study eschatology.  And, I have studied it for the last twenty years.  But, again, using your logic -- the Rapture was not known before 1991.

 

No, my Friend, it has nothing to do with when you or I first learned about the Rapture.  It has to do only with when it was first taught -- and that is in the Bible, i.e., Paul -- and with the early church writers in the first and second century.   The PreTrib Rapture is taught in the Bible -- and it is the only Rapture scenario which makes sense -- Biblically.

 

Once again, you and I seem to be on the opposite side of the fence.  What does your church teach?  My Baptist church, and I, teach a PreTrib Rapture and a PreMillennial Second Coming of Jesus Christ to establish His 1000 year Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem.  Yes, there will be a 1000 year peaceful Theocracy -- and then ETERNITY.  Praise God!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

Seems you made a remark about my knowledge of the Bible and my church leaders after I stated that only a handful of people had heard of a pre-tribulation rapture 30 years ago. You, yourself, said you learned of it 20 years ago, although you became a Christian four years earlier. 

 

I  have been a Christian a good bit longer, and I began to hear about it around that time, too, although I considered it to be a cultish fad, since it was not known to me, my father, my grandfather, or my church leaders prior to that.

 

But belief in a pre-trib rapture is hardly a requirement for salvation, so we're essentially arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Winston,

I agree with you when you write, "But belief in a pre-trib rapture is hardly a requirement for salvation, . . ."

However, the discussion does lead many people into a deeper study of God's Word -- which is good.   That is my main purpose in discussing eschatology.   Yet, I do find it comforting to know that the church will not be on earth during the Tribulation.

But, in your earlier post which began this dialogue, you wrote, "Thirty years ago no one but a handful of people had ever heard of this pre-tribulation rapture.   Why is that?"

From this statement, I would presume that you feel that the serious belief of a PreTrib Rapture only began about thirty years ago.   And, that is not true.  A PreTrib Rapture has been taught since the apostle Paul in the New Testament -- and early church leaders in their writings.  So, no, the belief did not start with Darby nor did it start thirty years ago.  It started nearly 2000 years ago.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

My concern is that pre-tribers may have their faith shaken if they're still around after the trouble starts. 

-----------------------------------------

After the trouble starts I think i'll have only concern, and it ain't the looters.

.

quote:   Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

My concern is that pre-tribers may have their faith shaken if they're still around after the trouble starts.


Hi Winston,

 

Thank you for your concern -- but, not a problem.  We have His Written Word which tells us that we will be out of here before that happens.  And, fortunately, even you believers who will not believe His promise to keep you from the hour of testing (Revelation 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9) -- will be removed with us.

 

So, you just go ahead, look forward to spending 3 1/2 (MidTrib), 5 1/4 (PreWrath), or 7 (PostTrib) years languishing in the misery of the Tribulation -- and be surprised on the way up.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

My concern is that pre-tribers may have their faith shaken if they're still around after the trouble starts. 

---

And my concerns is that these people will rejoice when a blinding flash or atomic radiation appears above Israel.

I saw that just today on Facebook where some idiot was excitedly announcing that the earthquake in Washington was surely a sign that Jesus was coming.   

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

My concern is that pre-tribers may have their faith shaken if they're still around after the trouble starts. 

---

And my concerns is that these people will rejoice when a blinding flash or atomic radiation appears above Israel.

I saw that just today on Facebook where some idiot was excitedly announcing that the earthquake in Washington was surely a sign that Jesus was coming.   

If that 's all it takes, He should have been here for the Tsunami.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Jesus isn't coming. Shhhhhh. Don't tell Bill. It's a secret.

Jimbo he has came, he died for us(you too), he was Resurrected.

Then he came again to his disciples.

He will be here again. Know one knows when.

I promise you though that everyone will know on his return that he is the Christ.

Son of the Living God. It will be a day to behold.

Skippy

Originally Posted by skippy delepepper:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Jesus isn't coming. Shhhhhh. Don't tell Bill. It's a secret.

Jimbo he has came, he died for us(you too), he was Resurrected.

Then he came again to his disciples.

He will be here again. Know one knows when.

I promise you though that everyone will know on his return that he is the Christ.

Son of the Living God. It will be a day to behold.

Skippy

You are going to be so disappointed when you die. Or you would be except you aren't going to know anything until you return 49 days later as a co*kroach.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
 

You are going to be so disappointed when you die. Or you would be except you aren't going to know anything until you return 49 days later as a co*kroach.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

You must be buying "Cook's pest control" stock.

 

.

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