God is real?

Hi Dwight,

Well, I might suggest that you leave Mormonism and your exalted men turned gods.

Then, start seeking the true God who was never a man -- but IS the preexisting deity -- from eternity to eternity.

That, my Friend, would be a great start!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Atheists aren't recruiters. Just let your mind roam freely, don't be afraid to question your beliefs and assumptions and you'll reach a conclusion that is yours alone.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Dwight,

Well, I might suggest that you leave Mormonism and your exalted men turned gods.

Then, start seeking the true God who was never a man -- but IS the preexisting deity -- from eternity to eternity.

That, my Friend, would be a great start!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Your answer does not fit the challange .

quote:

Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
Atheists aren't recruiters. Just let your mind roam freely, don't be afraid to question your beliefs and assumptions and you'll reach a conclusion that is yours alone.

Not allowing others to influence my thought process is a great start. Good answer

quote:

Originally posted by WINDSONG:

quote:

Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
Atheists aren't recruiters. Just let your mind roam freely, don't be afraid to question your beliefs and assumptions and you'll reach a conclusion that is yours alone.

Not allowing others to influence my thought process is a great start. Good answer

AND, NEVER ANSWERING A QUESTION IS STANDARD MORMON EVANGELISM!

Open your heart and pray.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by WINDSONG:

quote:

Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
Atheists aren't recruiters. Just let your mind roam freely, don't be afraid to question your beliefs and assumptions and you'll reach a conclusion that is yours alone.

Not allowing others to influence my thought process is a great start. Good answer

AND, NEVER ANSWERING A QUESTION IS STANDARD MORMON EVANGELISM!

No, never answering a question is standard bill procedure. But boy can you demand answers.

What opie said.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by WINDSONG:

quote:

Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
Atheists aren't recruiters. Just let your mind roam freely, don't be afraid to question your beliefs and assumptions and you'll reach a conclusion that is yours alone.

Not allowing others to influence my thought process is a great start. Good answer

AND, NEVER ANSWERING A QUESTION IS STANDARD MORMON EVANGELISM!

Attacking ones religious beliefss does not win someone over nor does it answer the challange, TRY AGAIN

Windsong, you have asked the $64,000 question. The reason the impassioned debates go on and on here are precisely because neither side can be proven. The best anyone can ever do is to diligently study and decide what speaks best to their heart, or their logic. I think everyone should study Buddhism, not as a religion but as a philosophy. The whole point of the Buddha's teaching was that one should not ever take his word or the words of anyone, you must figure it out for yourself. As passionately as both sides, the theists and the scientists believe our view to be correct...the fact is neither of us have verifiable empirical proof. Good luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by O No!:
Open your heart and pray.

If someone does not know if God is or is not real, to whom and why should they pray? How do you tell them what prayer is and how do you teach the process of prayer?

quote:

Originally posted by Netracer41:
Windsong, you have asked the $64,000 question. The reason the impassioned debates go on and on here are precisely because neither side can be proven. The best anyone can ever do is to diligently study and decide what speaks best to their heart, or their logic. I think everyone should study Buddhism, not as a religion but as a philosophy. The whole point of the Buddha's teaching was that one should not ever take his word or the words of anyone, you must figure it out for yourself. As passionately as both sides, the theists and the scientists believe our view to be correct...the fact is neither of us have verifiable empirical proof. Good luck to you.

Please dont missunderstand, I am solid in my beliefs aqns I accept others beliefs or non belief. I wanted to start a thread thet would cause serious thought and not just arguements. I have found thet truth can be found in all religions and in athiest beliefs as well. I love truth and seek it in all places, even a good old ****ry western song. so lets keep this thread going with good thought filled stuff from both sides because I believe both sides are scincre in their beliefs.

Your first question was how could you tell if God was real or not. If you OPEN YOUR HEART and ask Him to come in, even if you're not sure He is real, He will come in. If you are sincere, it doesn't matter HOW you pray, He will hear you. The words don't matter so much because He can see into your heart anyway. All you have to do is seek Him in truth, and He will reveal Himself to you.

quote:

Originally posted by O No!:
Your first question was how could you tell if God was real or not. If you OPEN YOUR HEART and ask Him to come in, even if you're not sure He is real, He will come in. If you are sincere, it doesn't matter HOW you pray, He will hear you. The words don't matter so much because He can see into your heart anyway. All you have to do is seek Him in truth, and He will reveal Himself to you.

I feel your faith from here, GREAT ANSWER!

Hi WindSong:

I believe that God is real. However, there is nothing I can do to prove it. Likewise, despite all their jeering, there is nothing the materialists can do to disprove it. Comments like “sky fairy” or “Santa” to me reflect a deep seated uncertainty as to the reality of God. Why else lash out so violently?

My best advice is that when you have started your quest for God, This is positive proof that God has already found you.

Can you hear the voice of God? I honestly do not know. I believe that a spirit fragment of God lives with each of us, and that the voice of this spirit can best be heard in those quiet moments of deep reflection, and not by using trances, drugs, wailing or speaking in “tongues”.

I say that God is the most real thing in the universe. So real, in fact that our finite intellects are quite incapable of perceiving this reality, let alone understanding it. It will take us an age of experience beyond this world before we are ready to stand in the actual presence of God.

wind song,

Take it on faith from good authority that God is the Creator.

There are of course other options:

Take it on faith that God does not exist based on no authority; since science is not an ‘authority’ that leaves the loud mouth’s rhetoric that claim themselves to be well employed as atheist candidates by choice.

They can never discover by what knowledge they are atheist candidates or who told them they were.

Ignorance of facts is in more cases than not the reason the forum atheist here just as an example.

There are those who live the lie of claiming there is no God;

Then there are those like myself who have studied the proposition for many years and have arrived at the conclusion that there is no other choice but God as the creator.

Since science has never claimed to have any proof that God does not exist why imagine on it’s behalf that there is no God. Well, there are authors of confusion like slim& and Co. who seem to dazzle the minds of supposedly believers with their ignorance. Strangely enough it’s the Catholics among us that give quarter to these blasphemers.

What it biles down to is, the candidates are not smart enough to reach the level of understand as myself to know the difference in fact and fiction.

Jennifer is simply a loud mouth lunatic.

Slim has abandoned all reason.

Uno is obsessed that he cannot buy wine on Sunday.

Crust…….well….he is just sitting perched on a limb, never makes much-of-a-fuss and other than a small puff of dust following an indistinct thud from the occasional falling off the limb when suddenly aroused, goes virtually un-noticed.

Windy,

I don't need to prove god isn't real. It is the responsibility of the theist to demonstrate he is.

It's understood god is not real until it's shown that he is.

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by WINDSONG:

quote:

Originally posted by O No!:
Your first question was how could you tell if God was real or not. If you OPEN YOUR HEART and ask Him to come in, even if you're not sure He is real, He will come in. If you are sincere, it doesn't matter HOW you pray, He will hear you. The words don't matter so much because He can see into your heart anyway. All you have to do is seek Him in truth, and He will reveal Himself to you.

I feel your faith from here, GREAT ANSWER!

Thanks, Windsong. I must admit, being on this forum every day is, not so much making my faith stronger, but CLARIFYING my faith. I have loved my Lord in my heart, but having to explain myself, and answering questions like this one of yours has made me put into words what I have known in my heart. It is getting my mind more engaged. I hope it is doing the same for others.

Hi NSNS:

You are only partially correct. I am under no greater responsability to proove that God exists than you are to prove he does not.

Neither of us can to these things.

Your claim that, because I can not offer proof of Gods existance, therefore he does not exist is as empty as Bills claims that because something happened, therefore he does exist.

Al

quote:

Originally posted by alwilliams767:
Hi WindSong:

I believe that God is real. However, there is nothing I can do to prove it. Likewise, despite all their jeering, there is nothing the materialists can do to disprove it. Comments like “sky fairy” or “Santa” to me reflect a deep seated uncertainty as to the reality of God. Why else lash out so violently?

My best advice is that when you have started your quest for God, This is positive proof that God has already found you.

Can you hear the voice of God? I honestly do not know. I believe that a spirit fragment of God lives with each of us, and that the voice of this spirit can best be heard in those quiet moments of deep reflection, and not by using trances, drugs, wailing or speaking in “tongues”.

I say that God is the most real thing in the universe. So real, in fact that our finite intellects are quite incapable of perceiving this reality, let alone understanding it. It will take us an age of experience beyond this world before we are ready to stand in the actual presence of God.

Very heart felt message AL, thanks. I have heard that all of us are born with what I call the Light of Christ in us. Also, Our Soirit feels and recognizes the things of God. Impressions and enlightenment. Some are just beyond feeling it because of daily life taking its toll. But I have learned to slow down and listen, not with my ears but with my heart and spirit. Thanks for your heartfelt input!

The debate seems to be whether you open your "heart" or your mind.

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
wind song,

Take it on faith from good authority that God is the Creator.

There are of course other options:

Take it on faith that God does not exist based on no authority; since science is not an ‘authority’ that leaves the loud mouth’s rhetoric that claim themselves to be well employed as atheist candidates by choice.

They can never discover by what knowledge they are atheist candidates or who told them they were.

Ignorance of facts is in more cases than not the reason the forum atheist here just as an example.

There are those who live the lie of claiming there is no God;

Then there are those like myself who have studied the proposition for many years and have arrived at the conclusion that there is no other choice but God as the creator.

Since science has never claimed to have any proof that God does not exist why imagine on it’s behalf that there is no God. Well, there are authors of confusion like slim& and Co. who seem to dazzle the minds of supposedly believers with their ignorance. Strangely enough it’s the Catholics among us that give quarter to these blasphemers.

What it biles down to is, the candidates are not smart enough to reach the level of understand as myself to know the difference in fact and fiction.

Jennifer is simply a loud mouth lunatic.

Slim has abandoned all reason.

Uno is obsessed that he cannot buy wine on Sunday.

Crust…….well….he is just sitting perched on a limb, never makes much-of-a-fuss and other than a small puff of dust from an indistinct thud from the occasional falling off the limb when suddenly aroused, goes virtually un-noticed.

Very interesting observations of each member mentioned. I still must accept that weather they believe as I do or not, they are people of importance and opinion. As I listen to each , I grow in understanding of human nature. I also have seen where some hold to one opinion because no truth stronger than their belief has struck a chord in them. Given time , all will recognize truth even if some of it comes from an athiest. Thanks for your most enlightening comments.

Hi Opie:

I hve opened both. And there is room enough for you too.

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Windy,

I don't need to prove god isn't real. It is the responsibility of the theist to demonstrate he is.

It's understood god is not real until it's shown that he is.

nsns

Inter4esting perspective but I have a question based on that perspective. Why should you think a thiest must prove God is real unless you have some doubt that he isnt? Great comment thanks for the input!

quote:

Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
The debate seems to be whether you open your "heart" or your mind.

Great observation! For me, I get things with my mind before I get them with my heart, but when I get them with my heart, It is a forever thing!

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Windy,

I don't need to prove god isn't real. It is the responsibility of the theist to demonstrate he is.

It's understood god is not real until it's shown that he is.

nsns

Im not the brightest bulb in the package but could you conciede that there are people smarter than you? Could there be people that fully understand necular energy and how to build a necular bomb? Or smart enough to build an entire battleship and how all its systems interact with each other? I dont understand either but I know that there are people that do because those things exist and they are proof of those that understand how to make them . Could you find room in your mind to also conciede that there could be someone with the full understanding of how to build an earth and understand its functionings nand control it> I dont have that knowledge but it seems obvious to me that someone does because the earth does exist. One day I hope to have that very same knowledge to be able to do the same. The God that most christians attempt to define does not exist. Remember, knowledge and ability comes to all, line upon line, precept upon precept.Dont believe in a God? thets fine but you must believe there are people much smarter than us all. Dont you?

It's all about faith & if a person can hold onto that Faith w/o proof. Proof will come in the by & by.

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:
It's all about faith & if a person can hold onto that Faith w/o proof. Proof will come in the by & by.

So true, FAITH then ACTION then PROOF. You have faith that when you flip a light switch a light will come on in the room. You ACT on that faith by flipping on that switch, Then comes the proof of that faith when the room lights up. Cant be any other way. That is why non believers have no Proof that aNY gOD EXISTS, tHEY HAVE NO FAITH THAT HE DOES THEREFORE THEY NEED NOT ACT AND THEREFORE RECEIVE NO PROOF. bUT THEY ALSO HAVE NO PROOF THAT A gOD DOES NOT EXIST EITHER!

IMO and to keep it simple, to be a Christian requires an open heart and mind....to be a non believer requires neither.

quote:

Originally posted by Southern_Guy:
IMO and to keep it simple, to be a Christian requires an open heart and mind....to be a non believer requires neither.

To me to be a decent human being and get along in society requires an open mind and open heart. To believe in a myth and no other explanations for anything is closed minded. If I wasn't "open minded" I'd probably still believe the myth.

quote:

To me to be a decent human being and get along in society requires an open mind and open heart. To believe in a myth and no other explanations for anything is closed minded. If I wasn't "open minded" I'd probably still believe the myth.

I don't know about this. I believe that open minded would extend to being "open" to the posibility of the spiritual realm. Instead of shutting it out altogether.
My heart is open to anything. There are no limitations.
/shrug just a different way to look at it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

Originally posted by Southern_Guy:
IMO and to keep it simple, to be a Christian requires an open heart and mind....to be a non believer requires neither.

To me to be a decent human being and get along in society requires an open mind and open heart. To believe in a myth and no other explanations for anything is closed minded. If I wasn't "open minded" I'd probably still believe the myth.

So, you have to see it to believe it? There's no doubt in my mind or heart that you will get that chance someday.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

To me to be a decent human being and get along in society requires an open mind and open heart. To believe in a myth and no other explanations for anything is closed minded. If I wasn't "open minded" I'd probably still believe the myth.

I don't know about this. I believe that open minded would extend to being "open" to the posibility of the spiritual realm. Instead of shutting it out altogether.
My heart is open to anything. There are no limitations.
/shrug just a different way to look at it.

As I said if my mind hadn't been open I most likely would never have become an atheist. When I started thinking I might not believe I tried to shut it out, I went for the longest thinking it was just a phase and my belief would come back. But I finally realized I just did not and could not believe anymore. I still went to church for years even after I came to that realization. I finally stopped feeling guilty about it, realized it was OK that I didn't believe anymore. Regardless of what bill says I was a believer. That belief left-I say I grew past it.

No one "got to me", no one peed in my cheerios, nothing traumatic happened, I just gradually lost the belief. The best I can remember it started around my early teens, and around 17 I finally knew I had lost the belief. I kept going to church into my mid-twenties. I talked to people about it, talked to the preachers, did all that.

quote:

That belief left-I say I grew past it

I understand completely. It's easy to doubt. And when that happens, we can easily lose faith. Its a constant decision, i guess.

Jennifer,

I usually stay away from topics about religion because I feel that I may do more harm than good. I personally believe that most, if not all, Christians have troubles similar to yours from time to time. I'm not perfect in my Christian walk and I've struggled with my faith at times too.

I usually pray every night and I do randomly speak to God throughout the day. I know that I need Him and that He's with me. I have tried to walk away at times out of anger, hurt, etc...but He never allowed it. God allowed me to throw my temper tantrums, say my hateful words...but He stayed with me.

Again, I don't have all of the answers. I won't put you down because of your beliefs. I do think it would be great if you would give Him a genuine, sincere chance again. He's waiting if you'll reach out to him. IMO, it's much easier to choose not to believe than to believe and have faith in Him.

quote:

Originally posted by Southern_Guy:
Jennifer,

I usually stay away from topics about religion because I feel that I may do more harm than good. I personally believe that most, if not all, Christians have troubles similar to yours from time to time. I'm not perfect in my Christian walk and I've struggled with my faith at times too.

I usually pray every night and I do randomly speak to God throughout the day. I know that I need Him and that He's with me. I have tried to walk away at times out of anger, hurt, etc...but He never allowed it. God allowed me to throw my temper tantrums, say my hateful words...but He stayed with me.

Again, I don't have all of the answers. I won't put you down because of your beliefs. I do think it would be great if you would give Him a genuine, sincere chance again. He's waiting if you'll reach out to him. IMO, it's much easier to choose not to believe than to believe and have faith in Him.

I'm headed to bed but I had to respond. Did you not read what I posted? I gave "him" a chance for YEARS. I didn't CHOOSE to not believe. My belief LEFT. I say my common sense and logic won out. It's wrong for christians to say people choose not to believe but yet they keep saying it. I've had this "debate" with bill for days now. Believers can and do lose their belief ALL THE TIME. You no more CHOOSE to be a non-believer anymore than you choose your sex before you're born. But it's not a bad thing, I was a happy little christian, and now I'm a happy atheist.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

Originally posted by Southern_Guy:
Jennifer,

I usually stay away from topics about religion because I feel that I may do more harm than good. I personally believe that most, if not all, Christians have troubles similar to yours from time to time. I'm not perfect in my Christian walk and I've struggled with my faith at times too.

I usually pray every night and I do randomly speak to God throughout the day. I know that I need Him and that He's with me. I have tried to walk away at times out of anger, hurt, etc...but He never allowed it. God allowed me to throw my temper tantrums, say my hateful words...but He stayed with me.

Again, I don't have all of the answers. I won't put you down because of your beliefs. I do think it would be great if you would give Him a genuine, sincere chance again. He's waiting if you'll reach out to him. IMO, it's much easier to choose not to believe than to believe and have faith in Him.

I'm headed to bed but I had to respond. Did you not read what I posted? I gave "him" a chance for YEARS. I didn't CHOOSE to not believe. My belief LEFT. I say my common sense and logic won out. It's wrong for christians to say people choose not to believe but yet they keep saying it. I've had this "debate" with bill for days now. Believers can and do lose their belief ALL THE TIME. You no more CHOOSE to be a non-believer anymore than you choose your sex before you're born. But it's not a bad thing, I was a happy little christian, and now I'm a happy atheist.

Of course I read it. I don't believe that you're a "happy atheist" as you put it. Sorry, but your posts/replies don't back that up. You actually come across as if you resent God and you need other "atheists" to defend your actions/beliefs. Opie made the remark that Atheists aren't recruiters. Then why do you and other Atheists argue with Bill and other Christians constantly on these forums? It's as if many of you need reassurance in your CHOICE to not believe. Paint the picture however you'd like, God doesn't choose for you to turn away from him, that choice.....is entirely yours.

Hi Dwight,

You ask if God is real. Are you speaking of the preexisting God of the Bible? Or, are you speaking of the exalted men who become gods in Mormonism?

So, are you speaking of God -- or god, or gods?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

If God can do this, There is, and he is, God.


Researcher and physicist Dr. Aldofo Orozco told participants at the International
Marian Congress on Our Lady of Guadalupe that there is no scientific
explanation for the 478 years of high quality-preservation of the Tilma or for
the miracles that have occurred to ensure its preservation.

Dr. Orozco began his talk by confirming that the conservation of the Tilma,
the cloak of St. Juan Diego on which Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared 478 years ago,
“is completely beyond any scientific explanation.”

“All the cloths similar to the Tilma that have been placed in the salty and
humid environment around the Basilica have lasted no more than ten years,”
he explained. One painting of the miraculous image, created in 1789, was on display
in a church near the basilica where the Tilma was placed.

“This painting was made with the best techniques of its time, the copy was beautiful
and made with a fabric very similar to that of the Tilma. Also, the image was
protected with a glass since it was first placed there.”

However, eight years later, the copy of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe
was thrown away because the colors were fading and threads were breaking.
In contrast, Orozco said, “the original Tilma was exposed for approximately
116 years without any kind of protection, receiving all the infrared
and ultraviolet radiation from the tens of thousands of candles near it
and exposed to the humid and salty air around the temple.”

Dr. Orozco then discussed the Tilma’s fabric. He noted that “one of the most
bizarre characteristics of the cloth is that the back side is rough and coarse,
but the front side is ‘as soft as the most pure silk, as noted by painters and
scientists in 1666, and confirmed one century later in 1751
by the Mexican painter, Miguel Cabrera.”

Following an analysis of some of the fibers in 1946, it was concluded that the
fibers came from the Agave plant, however, noted Dr. Orozco, the researchers
couldn’t figure out which of the 175 Agave species the Tilma was made from.

Years later, in 1975, “the famous Mexican researcher Ernesto Sodi Pallares said
that the species of the agave was Agave popotule Zacc,” Orozco explained,
“but we don’t know how he reached this conclusion.”

Before concluding his presentation, Dr. Orozco made mention of two miracles
associated with the Tilma.

The first occurred in 1785 when a worker accidentally spilled a 50 percent
nitric acid solvent on the right side of the cloth. “Besides any natural
explanation, the acid has not destroyed the fabric of the cloth, indeed it
has not even destroyed the colored parts of the image,” Orozco said.

The second miracle was the explosion of a bomb near the Tilma in 1921.
Dr. Orozco recalled that the explosion broke the marble floor and widows
150 meters from the explosion, but “unexpectedly, neither the Tilma nor
the normal glass that protected the Tilma was damaged or broken.”
The only damage near it was a brass crucifix that was twisted by the blast.

He continued, “There are no explanations why the shockwave that broke windows
150 meters afar did not destroy the normal glass that protected the image.
Some people said that the Son by means of the brass crucifix protected the
image of His Mother. The real fact is that we don’t have a natural
explanation for this event.”

Dr. Orozco thanked the audience for listening to his presentation and closed
by reassuring them that “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she
remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it,
and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.”


Iv