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Hello all you Guests in this forum, this is for you. Im sure you have seen and read much in here and it can become quite confusing if you are actually trying to find Gods, ONE AND ONLY church upon the face of this earth to which He gives HIS POWER and AUTHORITY to officiate in the life saving ordinances.
I understand the struggle with so many sects hollering they are the one and condemning all the others to hell.

I am not here to say I am right and they are wrong, I am also not here to say they are right and I am wrong. I am here to present information I have found to be true and show you how you can find out for yourself if it is true or not.

There is only ONE WAY to find out what , if anything, being said in here is true or not. That is to follow what is said in James 1:5. If any of ye lack wisdom,(( like the wisdom of which church is the only one God gives His Power and Authority to!),

Let him ask of God, ( Pray to God)
Who giveth liberally,( God freely gives answers)

And upbraideth not, ( God WILL NOT chew you out for asking Him anything, He is not, unaproachable!)

aND IT SHALL BE GIVEN HIM, ( yOU WILL RECEIVE AN ANSWER!)

AND 1:6 SAYS, but, LET HIM ASK IN FAITH, NOTHING WAVERING.

The answers to your prayers come through the power of the Holy Ghost.

For those that are un sure on how to approach God in prayer, you can access my blog by clicking on the address below and go to POST 21.
It will teach you a simple 4 step method to prayer.

For those that are unsure how to recognize an answer to their prayers through the power of the Holy Ghost, then read POST 68 of the same blog.
Folks, the matters of Religion are far to important to be misslead bby anyone, including me. Do not take the word of a preacher or another human on religious matters, they can be mistaken or lying. GO TO GOD FOR THOSE ANSWERS.

I also want you to ask God about everything I post in here too, so you can gain your own testimony of the truthfulness of the things I teach in here.

Your brother in Christ , Dwight

http://cherokeesrealcobra.blogspot.com
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ok!

dear god, please give us a sign that you exist. just about anything will do: a post that cannot be ignored. a shooting stay int he sky right now. smite that stupid jerk that has been making me angry. feed a hungry child. end a war or 10. cure cancer.

do so before i enter the period at the end of this sentence.

nope? well, windsong, what would one make of this?
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
ok!

dear god, please give us a sign that you exist. just about anything will do: a post that cannot be ignored. a shooting stay int he sky right now. smite that stupid jerk that has been making me angry. feed a hungry child. end a war or 10. cure cancer.

do so before i enter the period at the end of this sentence.

nope? well, windsong, what would one make of this?



gbrk
Hall of Famer
Posted 18 April 2011 05:24 PM Hide Post
For an ever so brief moment attempt to put yourself in God's place. Which would be your chosen ones? Those who put their faith in you requiring nothing ahead of time or those who deny you and spit in your face daring you to prove yourself to them as if you owed them something.

God's ONLY manifestation or evidence to an unsaved person is during the moment of, the point of conviction by the Holy Spirit. At that time only can and will an unsaved person be able to experience the prescience of God, if they are fortunate enough to have that experience. A person makes a decision in a moment of time based upon that conviction and at the time of a persons conversion, accepting Christ, they are given, by God, the Holy Spirit and at that point no proof is needed anymore for the proof is within the believer.
Posts: 2027 | Location: Florence, Alabama | Registered: 29 June 2008
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
gbrk
Which would be your chosen ones? Those who put their faith in you requiring nothing ahead of time or those who deny you and spit in your face daring you to prove yourself to them as if you owed them something.


win other words, just shut up and believe and stop asking questions. either i get on my knees and kiss god's big fluffy butt or go to hell. doesn't that seem just a bit childish? capricious? ungodly?

ono, i did just that for over 40 years. i was such a fool.

quote:
God's ONLY manifestation or evidence to an unsaved person is during the moment of, the point of conviction by the Holy Spirit. At that time only can and will an unsaved person be able to experience the prescience of God, if they are fortunate enough to have that experience. A person makes a decision in a moment of time based upon that conviction and at the time of a persons conversion, accepting Christ, they are given, by God, the Holy Spirit and at that point no proof is needed anymore for the proof is within the believer.


this is certainly an organized bit of words that seem to convey some meaning yet not quite ever reaches any sort of rational point. in other words, this is gibberish. replace "god" with "unicorn" and is still makes the exactly same amount of sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
gbrk
Which would be your chosen ones? Those who put their faith in you requiring nothing ahead of time or those who deny you and spit in your face daring you to prove yourself to them as if you owed them something.


win other words, just shut up and believe and stop asking questions. either i get on my knees and kiss god's big fluffy butt or go to hell. doesn't that seem just a bit childish? capricious? ungodly?

ono, i did just that for over 40 years. i was such a fool.

quote:
God's ONLY manifestation or evidence to an unsaved person is during the moment of, the point of conviction by the Holy Spirit. At that time only can and will an unsaved person be able to experience the prescience of God, if they are fortunate enough to have that experience. A person makes a decision in a moment of time based upon that conviction and at the time of a persons conversion, accepting Christ, they are given, by God, the Holy Spirit and at that point no proof is needed anymore for the proof is within the believer.


this is certainly an organized bit of words that seem to convey some meaning yet not quite ever reaches any sort of rational point. in other words, this is gibberish. replace "god" with "unicorn" and is still makes the exactly same amount of sense.



From Gbrk:
You are asking for physical proof of a Spiritual entity. Let me, just as sincerely ask you.

Prove to me by evidence, not how you feel or believe, that you have dreams and what those dreams are about? Prove and demonstrate Love, fear, happiness. Prove by evidence that you have memories within your brain. You may make statements of fact about things you personally experience but that isn't proof to another person.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
From Gbrk:
You are asking for physical proof of a Spiritual entity. Let me, just as sincerely ask you.

Prove to me by evidence, not how you feel or believe, that you have dreams and what those dreams are about? Prove and demonstrate Love, fear, happiness. Prove by evidence that you have memories within your brain. You may make statements of fact about things you personally experience but that isn't proof to another person.


ono, if i wanted to discuss this with gbrk, i'd ask him.

i cannot prove to you that i have dreams or memories here in this forum but that is beside the point. dreams are in my imagination. they are fictions. they are generally meaningless patterns of randomly discharging neurons that occur while the brain reorganizes electrical connections in order to store memories.

i do not assert that my dreams are real, interfere with the known laws of the universe or cause any sort of actions outside of my cerebral cortex. i do not insist that you believe in my dream of suffer eternally. dreams can be just as "real" to you as your imaginary god. that does not make them real to me or anyone else.

can't you guys just think about this stuff before you post it? perhaps apply just a smidgen or logic and reason to your arguments? .... nah.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
Why haven't you all won the lottery?


I know this was meant to be funny, but if a person is a true Christian, they don't pray for things like personal gain. A true Christian only prays to do God's will and become a better Christian.

Even when I pray for others, it is always, "Lord, if it is you will, please let my friend get better. And Lord, if it is NOT your will, please help us both to accept that gratefully."
see.. he dosen't *always* answer prayers.

and no, the ' .. but sometiems the answer is 'no' thing doesn't work, because it's not always a yes or no answer.

i don't think he answers them at all. i don't think he ever has, nor ever will.

i think some things he has designed to happen... both on a global scale, and in our personal lives.

i think sometimes what we want most are the same things he has 'programmed', so when we pray for that to happen, boom, it appears to be an answered prayer.

i also think sometimes stuff just happens. maybe he DID plan on that horrific quake and tsunami to hit japan, for some reason only he can comprehend.. perhaps to cause us to learn something vital he wants us to know. maye it was a lesson so important to the future of mankind that it was worth the cost of lives to teach us the lesson.

or maybe the tectonic pressure built up, caused a subduction slip, which caused the quake and tsunami and god didn't have anything to do with it that time.

sometimes things are part of gods plan. sometimes stuff, both good and bad, just happen.

but i've never seen anything that would cause me to believe he's holding each one of our hands, trying to lead us onto one single path to him, trying to guide our lives minute by minute like we are wayward rambunctious children on a sugar high.

i'm not saying it isn't possible for him.. i'm saying it's not plausable. there'd be no point in creating a flock of people, giving them free will, then leading them around by the nose so they'll do as he wished, and punishing them when they didn't follow his 'rules'.
quote:
maybe he DID plan on that horrific quake and tsunami to hit japan, for some reason only he can comprehend.. perhaps to cause us to learn something vital he wants us to know. maye it was a lesson so important to the future of mankind that it was worth the cost of lives to teach us the lesson.

Crapola.

God assumes we can understand his mind. Read Genesis and Exodus, not to mention the entire NT. Ask any preacher, he'll tell you god's specific intentions on any particular piece of legislation in Montgomery. God's mind is said to be known by his believers.

So when a tsunami or earthquake or hurricane rips the hell out of thousands of people, it become mysterious? It's nothing of the sort. God is a fiction, and natural disasters happen more or less randomly. Either that, or god is a monster.

What's so hard to grasp?

If you cling to god, however ephemerally, you MUST blame him for the natural disasters for which only he could be responsible. No gesture of "Free Will" or any other ridiculous rationalization will do after any fashion. Nor may you write it off to "his inscrutable plan". Either we understand the mind of the gods or we do not.

Of course, we do, their being our creations. But who, then, has an answer that follows? Why, the Westboro Baptist Church. Their lunacy makes sense, if one believe that god is just upon the living and his pronouncements in Scripture are legitimate.

You take it. I'll have nothing to do with it. We're moving on from such harsh and counterproductive superstitions, and more than about time.

nsns
quote:
That's one thing I never understood. People pray if it be His will. Why would it be His will for anyone to suffer?

Especially children. It seems so cruel for someone to go up to a mother and father that has a child suffering and start talking about it being "god's will". Are they supposed to go-"alrighty then, everythings cool"?
quote:
Originally posted by WINDSONG:
For those that are un sure on how to approach God in prayer, you can access my blog by clicking on the address below and go to POST 21.
It will teach you a simple 4 step method to prayer.
For those that are unsure how to recognize an answer to their prayers through the power of the Holy Ghost, then read POST 68 of the same blog.


I'm sorry but you're beginning to sound as bad as Bill Gray. Why would anyone go to your blog when all they have to do is open a Bible?
From WINDSONG's blog (bold face is mine):

"Now, how to pray. There are four steps to prayer.
First you ADDRESS GOD . Remember, to call someone on the phone you must first dial a number. So, how do we address God? I usually call Him Heavenly Father.

Next step is to THANK HIM .Thank Him for whatever you are thankful for.

Third step is to ASK HIM. ask whatever you want to know. Final step. CLOSE YOUR PRAYER IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, because Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and man. And, no man gets to the Father, lest he go through Jesus.

That simple people! I KNOW Heavenly Father HEARS And ANSWERS ALL PRAYERS and I say that in the name of Jesus Christ Amen!

WINDSONG has vastly expanded AND EXAGGERATED the teaching of James 1:5-6. Here are these verses without red-letter commentary:


JAMES 1

5 5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him., 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

James obviously is not endorsing prayer as a source of divine encyclopedic information. Asking for "wisdom" is not the same as petitioning the Lord for the answer to "whatever you want to know." The use of these verses by you Mormons to delude yourselves into believing what you want to believe is a perversion of the Apostle's teaching.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Give me evidence of love. Give me evidence of happiness. Give me evidence of fear. Can't do it? Then I guess they don't exist either.


At least one of your examples, fear, is quite measurable. Love has been studied by biologists and there are some very interesting scientific discoveries resulting from those studies.

Someone else keeps saying you can't prove that you dream. Umm..... that can be measured, too.

Your arguments are both weak an fallacious.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
Why haven't you all won the lottery?


I know this was meant to be funny, but if a person is a true Christian, they don't pray for things like personal gain.



Of course not-THAT'S the preacher's job.

Ya know, I wish all christians thought like you do, O.

Wouldn't make me believe, but I can respect somebody who's trying to live right.
WINDSONG has vastly expanded AND EXAGGERATED the teaching of James 1:5-6. Here are these verses without red-letter commentary:

JAMES 1

55. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him., 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

James obviously is not endorsing prayer as a source of divine encyclopedic information. Asking for "wisdom" is not the same as petitioning the Lord for the answer to "whatever you want to know." The use of these verses by you Mormons to delude yourselves into believing what you want to believe is a perversion of the Apostle's teaching.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
see.. he dosen't *always* answer prayers.

and no, the ' .. but sometiems the answer is 'no' thing doesn't work, because it's not always a yes or no answer.

i don't think he answers them at all. i don't think he ever has, nor ever will.

i think some things he has designed to happen... both on a global scale, and in our personal lives.

i think sometimes what we want most are the same things he has 'programmed', so when we pray for that to happen, boom, it appears to be an answered prayer.

i also think sometimes stuff just happens. maybe he DID plan on that horrific quake and tsunami to hit japan, for some reason only he can comprehend.. perhaps to cause us to learn something vital he wants us to know. maye it was a lesson so important to the future of mankind that it was worth the cost of lives to teach us the lesson.

or maybe the tectonic pressure built up, caused a subduction slip, which caused the quake and tsunami and god didn't have anything to do with it that time.

sometimes things are part of gods plan. sometimes stuff, both good and bad, just happen.

but i've never seen anything that would cause me to believe he's holding each one of our hands, trying to lead us onto one single path to him, trying to guide our lives minute by minute like we are wayward rambunctious children on a sugar high.

i'm not saying it isn't possible for him.. i'm saying it's not plausable. there'd be no point in creating a flock of people, giving them free will, then leading them around by the nose so they'll do as he wished, and punishing them when they didn't follow his 'rules'.


Im sorry you have that problem, He answers ALL my prayers and most of the time, instantly
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
From WINDSONG's blog (bold face is mine):

"Now, how to pray. There are four steps to prayer.
First you ADDRESS GOD . Remember, to call someone on the phone you must first dial a number. So, how do we address God? I usually call Him Heavenly Father.

Next step is to THANK HIM .Thank Him for whatever you are thankful for.

Third step is to ASK HIM. ask whatever you want to know. Final step. CLOSE YOUR PRAYER IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, because Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and man. And, no man gets to the Father, lest he go through Jesus.

That simple people! I KNOW Heavenly Father HEARS And ANSWERS ALL PRAYERS and I say that in the name of Jesus Christ Amen!

WINDSONG has vastly expanded AND EXAGGERATED the teaching of James 1:5-6. Here are these verses without red-letter commentary:


JAMES 1

5 5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him., 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

James obviously is not endorsing prayer as a source of divine encyclopedic information. Asking for "wisdom" is not the same as petitioning the Lord for the answer to "whatever you want to know." The use of these verses by you Mormons to delude yourselves into believing what you want to believe is a perversion of the Apostle's teaching.


First off, let me thank you Bill for helping me bring the message of how to pray to this forum by copying this from my blog. NOW< Im sorry your god doesnt answer your prayers, James 1:5 is INDEED a call for all people to ASK GOD, about wisdom in ALL aspects of their lives, wisdom to know which church to join, wisdom of what business deal to get involved in, wisdom of how to help a wayward child, wisdom of who to listen to in here! Bill, God answers ALL my prayers and leads guides and directs my life. I have even turned my free will back over to Him because I know He will do what is best for me. If your God doesnt answer all your prayers or lead guise and direct you, maybe you should think about changing gods.

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quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
WINDSONG has vastly expanded AND EXAGGERATED the teaching of James 1:5-6. Here are these verses without red-letter commentary:

JAMES 1

55. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him., 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

James obviously is not endorsing prayer as a source of divine encyclopedic information. Asking for "wisdom" is not the same as petitioning the Lord for the answer to "whatever you want to know." The use of these verses by you Mormons to delude yourselves into believing what you want to believe is a perversion of the Apostle's teaching.


No PUFFY, no exageration at all, just a deeper understanding of the verse than you have, Folks, dont listen to Bill and PUFFY in this matter, try what I have said, but remember, verse 6 is VERY VERY important or you wont get an answer.

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quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by WINDSONG:
For those that are un sure on how to approach God in prayer, you can access my blog by clicking on the address below and go to POST 21.
It will teach you a simple 4 step method to prayer.
For those that are unsure how to recognize an answer to their prayers through the power of the Holy Ghost, then read POST 68 of the same blog.


I'm sorry but you're beginning to sound as bad as Bill Gray. Why would anyone go to your blog when all they have to do is open a Bible?


Believe it or not, some people do extensive research and like to read from many sources in order to make a wise decision.

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quote:
Originally posted by WINDSONG:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
see.. he dosen't *always* answer prayers.

and no, the ' .. but sometiems the answer is 'no' thing doesn't work, because it's not always a yes or no answer.

i don't think he answers them at all. i don't think he ever has, nor ever will.

i think some things he has designed to happen... both on a global scale, and in our personal lives.

i think sometimes what we want most are the same things he has 'programmed', so when we pray for that to happen, boom, it appears to be an answered prayer.

i also think sometimes stuff just happens. maybe he DID plan on that horrific quake and tsunami to hit japan, for some reason only he can comprehend.. perhaps to cause us to learn something vital he wants us to know. maye it was a lesson so important to the future of mankind that it was worth the cost of lives to teach us the lesson.

or maybe the tectonic pressure built up, caused a subduction slip, which caused the quake and tsunami and god didn't have anything to do with it that time.

sometimes things are part of gods plan. sometimes stuff, both good and bad, just happen.

but i've never seen anything that would cause me to believe he's holding each one of our hands, trying to lead us onto one single path to him, trying to guide our lives minute by minute like we are wayward rambunctious children on a sugar high.

i'm not saying it isn't possible for him.. i'm saying it's not plausable. there'd be no point in creating a flock of people, giving them free will, then leading them around by the nose so they'll do as he wished, and punishing them when they didn't follow his 'rules'.


Im sorry you have that problem, He answers ALL my prayers and most of the time, instantly


WINDSONG has vastly expanded AND EXAGGERATED the teaching of James 1:5-6. Here are these verses without red-letter commentary:

JAMES 1

55. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him., 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

James obviously is not endorsing prayer as a source of divine encyclopedic information. Asking for "wisdom" is not the same as petitioning the Lord for the answer to "whatever you want to know." The use of these verses by you Mormons to delude yourselves into believing what you want to believe is a perversion of the Apostle's teaching.
From Nagel: "but i've never seen anything that would cause me to believe he's holding each one of our hands, trying to lead us onto one single path to him, trying to guide our lives minute by minute like we are wayward rambunctious children on a sugar high.

i'm not saying it isn't possible for him.. i'm saying it's not plausable. there'd be no point in creating a flock of people, giving them free will, then leading them around by the nose so they'll do as he wished, and punishing them when they didn't follow his 'rules'."

He DOESN'T take us by the hand UNLESS WE ASK HIM TO. We all DO have free will and can do whatever we want. Some of us though, have asked God to take control of our lives, and then He DOES have our hands and leads us where He wants us to go.

We STILL have free will and can let go of His hand if we want to. I don't know WHY anyone who has had His guidance would ever want to let go, but there it is.


And Semi, we've been through this before. It is MY belief that this life is just a short introduction, and that whatever happens in this intro bears on the body of the symphony (our eternal life). None of us has heard the symphony yet so none of us has the answer to why the intro goes the way it does.

But God wrote the symphony, so I know that it will make even Bach's music sound like bubblegum. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by WINDSONG:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
see.. he dosen't *always* answer prayers.

and no, the ' .. but sometiems the answer is 'no' thing doesn't work, because it's not always a yes or no answer.

i don't think he answers them at all. i don't think he ever has, nor ever will.

i think some things he has designed to happen... both on a global scale, and in our personal lives.

i think sometimes what we want most are the same things he has 'programmed', so when we pray for that to happen, boom, it appears to be an answered prayer.

i also think sometimes stuff just happens. maybe he DID plan on that horrific quake and tsunami to hit japan, for some reason only he can comprehend.. perhaps to cause us to learn something vital he wants us to know. maye it was a lesson so important to the future of mankind that it was worth the cost of lives to teach us the lesson.

or maybe the tectonic pressure built up, caused a subduction slip, which caused the quake and tsunami and god didn't have anything to do with it that time.

sometimes things are part of gods plan. sometimes stuff, both good and bad, just happen.

but i've never seen anything that would cause me to believe he's holding each one of our hands, trying to lead us onto one single path to him, trying to guide our lives minute by minute like we are wayward rambunctious children on a sugar high.

i'm not saying it isn't possible for him.. i'm saying it's not plausable. there'd be no point in creating a flock of people, giving them free will, then leading them around by the nose so they'll do as he wished, and punishing them when they didn't follow his 'rules'.


Im sorry you have that problem, He answers ALL my prayers and most of the time, instantly


WINDSONG has vastly expanded AND EXAGGERATED the teaching of James 1:5-6. Here are these verses without red-letter commentary:

JAMES 1

55. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him., 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

James obviously is not endorsing prayer as a source of divine encyclopedic information. Asking for "wisdom" is not the same as petitioning the Lord for the answer to "whatever you want to know." The use of these verses by you Mormons to delude yourselves into believing what you want to believe is a perversion of the Apostle's teaching.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
From Nagel: "but i've never seen anything that would cause me to believe he's holding each one of our hands, trying to lead us onto one single path to him, trying to guide our lives minute by minute like we are wayward rambunctious children on a sugar high.

i'm not saying it isn't possible for him.. i'm saying it's not plausable. there'd be no point in creating a flock of people, giving them free will, then leading them around by the nose so they'll do as he wished, and punishing them when they didn't follow his 'rules'."

He DOESN'T take us by the hand UNLESS WE ASK HIM TO. We all DO have free will and can do whatever we want. Some of us though, have asked God to take control of our lives, and then He DOES have our hands and leads us where He wants us to go.

We STILL have free will and can let go of His hand if we want to. I don't know WHY anyone who has had His guidance would ever want to let go, but there it is.


And Semi, we've been through this before. It is MY belief that this life is just a short introduction, and that whatever happens in this intro bears on the body of the symphony (our eternal life). None of us has heard the symphony yet so none of us has the answer to why the intro goes the way it does.

But God wrote the symphony, so I know that it will make even Bach's music sound like bubblegum. Smiler


This isnt the intro to eterinity, this is the second act, in the first act 1/3 of our brothers and sisters rebelled and were cast down to this earth never to gain a body of flesh and bones and we kept out FIRST ESTATE! Now lets see how many of us keep our SECOND ESTATE and return to Our Heavenly FATHER

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quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
maybe he DID plan on that horrific quake and tsunami to hit japan, for some reason only he can comprehend.. perhaps to cause us to learn something vital he wants us to know. maye it was a lesson so important to the future of mankind that it was worth the cost of lives to teach us the lesson.

Crapola.

God assumes we can understand his mind. Read Genesis and Exodus, not to mention the entire NT. Ask any preacher, he'll tell you god's specific intentions on any particular piece of legislation in Montgomery. God's mind is said to be known by his believers.


yup, crapola. i've read those books and the rest of them. i view them the same way you do. the bible is fiction, so stop trying to saddle me with its nonsence.

quote:

So when a tsunami or earthquake or hurricane rips the hell out of thousands of people, it become mysterious? It's nothing of the sort. God is a fiction, and natural disasters happen more or less randomly. Either that, or god is a monster.

What's so hard to grasp?


mysterious? not to me. it's a horrible thing that kills thousands.
to us, that's all it is. but perhaps the ultimate goal was to teach us a method for arresting a near runaway reaction. or perhaps it was a lesson as simple as 'don't built nuclear plants on the shorelines of island nations that are prone to earthquakes'.

i'd figure that one would pretty much be a Gimmie....tho appearently they thought it was a good idea.

If god is there, then pretty clearly he works on a different scale form us. it's not so much that it's a mystery, it's just that we don't understand it.
if you gave a honda civic to Ghengis Khan it would be similar. there is nothing mysterious about the honda, it's not magic, he just wouldn't understand the concepts. he couldn't grasp the questions necessary to ask to begin to understand the concept.
someone wrote soemthing cute about their cat. the cat doesn't get that it's being helped, all it knows is someone is jabbing something into it's neck and it hurt.
well, on gods scale, this was a needle in the neck of humanity to give us soemthing that we need.

OR, like i said, maybe it was just a tragic event that had nothing to do with god. you DID read the whole post, right? not just the parts you could argue against?

quote:


If you cling to god, however ephemerally, you MUST blame him for the natural disasters for which only he could be responsible. No gesture of "Free Will" or any other ridiculous rationalization will do after any fashion. Nor may you write it off to "his inscrutable plan". Either we understand the mind of the gods or we do not.



we do not understand the mind of god. i never said we did.

and i MUST? why MUST i?
no i MUST not do anything. are you at fault if your son breaks his arm because he fell off of the bike that you bought him?
is your son at fault? or do bad things happen sometimes, with no fault at all?
i'm able to accept that.
i'm also able that sometimes things happen because he designed them to happen that way.
i can accept both things at the same time. i'm not limited by an either/or choice. i'm sorry if you are.

did you acctually read what i wrote? did you fail to grasp that i did, indeed, say that sometimes stuff just happens? do you keep forgetting i don't accept the bible? why do you continue to use points against me that i don't adhere to?

quote:

Of course, we do, their being our creations. But who, then, has an answer that follows? Why, the Westboro Baptist Church. Their lunacy makes sense, if one believe that god is just upon the living and his pronouncements in Scripture are legitimate.



oh giveth unto me a break. this is as stupid as when the homophobe christers tell us that allowing gay marriage will lead to people trying to marry animals.

why do people always jump to the extreme to try and push their point?
if god is real, then the bible says he wants to kill us all.
if gays marry, them people will try to date box turtles.

it's idotic and beneath contempt, from either direction.
there are many options that aren't necessary to go so far into such exteme elements.

i'm living proof that both extremes are stupid and patently untrue.
i believe in god. i don't believe in the bible. i know gay people that have been married, and i don't want to marry my dog.
see?


here's another one -
god is real. he does have a plan for us, but until we evolve mentally and emotionally we arent' even capable of understanding that there is a question to be asked, much less what the answer would mean.

he does what he feels to be best for our future welfare, regardless of what we feel we need for our current situation. his goal for us is what we will evolve into in another ten or twenty or a hundred thousand years, no matter what we want NOW. we want world peace and an end to hunger and suffering. maybe he sees that what's needed is a whittling down of the gene pool, such that one global war and starvation can provide.
he cares about us, as people, but his primary interet is us, as a race. it's necessary to allow some to die... it's necessary to activly kill some, even, to help mold the final product into what you wish it to be.

along the way, some greedy whanker started making stuff up about a super-being, so he could scare his tribe into making him the leader, and someone started writing all of this down. the tales got more elaborate and outlandish, and sometimes other people added to the story to try and get their believes carved into the stone of 'god's word', people added in scarey stuff to try and terrify the populace into following the rules. later somepeople tried the other way, and wrote down the rule was to just be nice to people and help poor people and old ladies.
and eventually that lead us to bill gray, filled with fear and hate and gullibility, and he makes himself into a willing sheep because of these long dead men who were just looking to control the citizens like bill with scarey words.

there ya go. one simple option... i'm not saying it's right or wrong, or that i even believe it, it's merely an example of why it's never the right choice to go with the extremes.
[/QUOTE]
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:

He DOESN'T take us by the hand UNLESS WE ASK HIM TO. We all DO have free will and can do whatever we want. Some of us though, have asked God to take control of our lives, and then He DOES have our hands and leads us where He wants us to go.

We STILL have free will and can let go of His hand if we want to. I don't know WHY anyone who has had His guidance would ever want to let go, but there it is.



i understand your point, but i disagree...
if we give control of our lives to soemone else, it negates the effect of free will, EVEN if it's by our free will they control our life.

a guy i used to know.. i can't say he was my friend... i thought he was a kook. but i knew him. he 'gave his life to jesus' in high school. he would pray over everything. i mean seriously, everythng. over dinner options... 'lord should i have the chicken or the beef? make me hungry for the one you want me to have"...
every little thing. we didn't hang out together much. it took ten minutes to decide anything, cause he had to check with 'the old man'.

when he was in his early 20's he finally, somehow, met a girl who was just like him. they would go on dates where they sat on the grass in the evening and looked at the stars and prayed. for hours. it was what they enjoyed doing together and he said it saved him the money a movie would cost. hard to argue that point.

about a month after they became engaged, they were driving.. someplace.. i dunno.. and were clipped by an 18 wheeler on the interstate, lost control and flew offthe road, flipping the car end over end.
the girl died, her mom i nthe back seat died, his brother, the best man died, and he lost his right leg at his knee.

he never let go of god's hand. (so to speak)
if god leads us around by the hand, if we ask him to, why did he lead that guy to such horrific pain and loss?


i'm not going to argue the point, O... i respect your belief... i was just trying to explain mine...
quote:
he never let go of god's hand. (so to speak)
if god leads us around by the hand, if we ask him to, why did he lead that guy to such horrific pain and loss?



You answered that question yourself in an earlier post. Maybe He wanted us to learn something through the tsunami, and maybe He wanted this guy to learn something through this accident.

But more likely, I think, is your analogy about the Honda Civic and Ghengis Khan. We don't have the ability to understand.

But that doesn't mean He doesn't have good reasons. As I said earlier, this is just a short intro to the long, beautiful, and complex symphony.

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