Good without God

Wow...I am sincerely hoping that you really don't think that Christians are the only group in the world who strive to do better.  You really are leaving out a whole lot of people there and surely you don't mean that as you wrote it?  

Frog, I hope you are not imagining large hoards of uncivilized persons hidden from society that have never heard of God.

Knowing Dawkins as I do his statement is not based on something he just suddenly came up with. It was from careful study of logical conclusions based on the study and observation of animal/ human behavior.

I’m not trying to force you to adopt this theory but I agree with Dawkins. Abhorring it still doesn’t prevent it from being true.

Morals from the belief in God is tested out in our daily lives. Surely you know someone or some group who believes in God that by their number and influence impact your life.

Rape, murder, incest and devouring of the young is moral to the animal kingdom but not ours. Yes the belief in God by most of society effect our behavior regardless of who is a believer or non-believer. I would also venture to say that in a case where eventually in the future no one believed in God there would still be societies affected by past beliefs in God.

I cannot think of any moral behavior that is not covered in the Bible. Perhaps you can point out one.

Logically I cannot see NOT accepting that morals spring from the Bible as a prerequisite to atheism.

A great analogy can be realized in the study of the ancient Greeks who literally studied Homer daily in every facet of their lives. The people became so obsessed with Homer it was like one of the popular internet war games. Even the children would role-play characters, men would drink and boast over characters as though it was after a football game, even household arguments led to bloodshed over Homer’s characters……..so yes it’s ok to recognize that morals come from the belief in God and one can eat the cake of atheism too.

 Good morals have been around a lot longer than your god.

Interesting statement. When did good morals first appear?

Interesting question, why don't you know the answer?

But not everyone in the world is obsessed with reading the Bible or has even given a thought to it...lol.  Of course it's okay to believe whatever you want to believe and call yourself whatever you want to...was that in doubt?  

……..so yes it’s ok to recognize that morals come from the belief in God

You would be "recognizing" something that is totally untrue.

So true!  A Christian believer is only a "forgiven sinner."   Yes, we continue to fail, we continue to fall into sin, we continue to be weak humans.  But, the difference is that we are convicted of our failures (the indwelling Holy Spirit) and we ask forgiveness and do our best to avoid that sin again.  Will we always be successful in avoiding that sin?  No.  But, we continue to be convicted, we continue to ask forgiveness, and we continue to strive toward eliminating that sin from our repertoire of sins. 

And, Firenze, as you said, "The basic difference is that Christians strive to do better."    I know that some folks will jump on that statement, asking, "Are Christians the only ones who can strive to do better?"  And, the answer is -- NO. 

However, we Christians are the only ones indwelled with the Holy Spirit -- the Spirit which convicts us, which teaches us, and which guides us -- to help us strive more diligently toward that goal of doing God's will better.

That, my Friends, is one of the many differences between the Christian faith -- and all the world religions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Frog,

Since you seem to argue for atheism I am reminded that in the absence of it, anything we discuss is a not a doctrinal issue but rather a disagreement as to facts.

I still argue that morals from a belief in God is testable and a fact.

Morals from genes are not testable. Genes and DNA do not know what they are doing. Gene regulation comes from somewhere else in your body such as from hormones……and 95% of DNA does not code and is simply “junk DNA”. To further complicate matters splicing enzymes behave differently in different parts of the body.

The bottom fact is morals from God belief are testable. I’m sure you would find that morals from your lost tribe would be inhospitable if you were suddenly a surprise visitor. You do watch TV right?

It is a fact that moral genes are not testable but actually refuted by current science.

Bill says:

"So true! A Christian believer is only a "forgiven sinner." Yes, we continue to fail, we continue to fall into sin, we continue to be weak humans. But, the difference is that we are convicted of our failures (the indwelling Holy Spirit) and we ask forgiveness and do our best to avoid that sin again. Will we always be successful in avoiding that sin? No. But, we continue to be convicted, we continue to ask forgiveness, and we continue to strive toward eliminating that sin from our repertoire of sins". (as per you)

It would seem you are convinced that man’s role on Earth is to sin constantly believer or non.

That’s certainly not the case with me. I can’t remember the last time I sinned. Maybe it’s been years. I don’t know. If I were God I would certainly put a stop to all this uncontrollable sinning.

If I might ask, why do you continue to fail? What sins are you falling into? I’m not convinced of failure nor do I consider myself weak. I don’t strive not to sin, I just don’t see sinning as a priority.

I understand as well as science can so far how genetics work, but thanks for explaining it.  

I didn't think the tribe was lost in the first place, and that is where our ways of thinking diverge.  I would tend to believe that tribes begin to be lost when they are unfortunately found by "modern  civilization".   I don't really believe everything I see on tv, so I don't base my beliefs on it.

I am not really arguing for a particular side, but simply saying that you can't prove where a person's morals come from exactly unless you can sit down and discuss them with him/her, and since you can't do that for every human that ever lived you really can't do it for all mankind.  Thus you can't say with any absolute certainty, and I'm not sure why it would be even necessary to do it anyway.  If people are happy with the path they've chosen and aren't hurting others, then why is it even necessary to KNOW the source of their moral compass?  Since morals aren't only based on genes anyway, but in my view not exclusive of those who are familiar with God and have read the Bible enough to be exposed to the rules in it, it doesn't even matter anyway...it isn't absolute reality.

Since each tribe has different traditions  I can't predict how they would respond any more than you can.  Some might attack and kill me to protect their homes (which isn't immoral based on Christianity), and some might welcome me as long as I didn't give them reason to think I was harming them.  The term "savages" is just a term used by people who wish to infer their superiority over another group, and some non-Christians are peace-loving, intelligent people who live a decent life, just as some Christians are.  Not every group has massacred newcomers, so that argument doesn't work as an absolute either.  Really in the end I feel how I feel and you feel how you feel about this...how about we just agree to disagree?  

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.   If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us"

Romans 3:21-24,  "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." 

So, Ok, is Jesus Christ a liar -- or are you a sinner -- a "forgiven sinner" I pray?

Notice that the passage in Romans tells us that ALL have sinned and that ALL FALL SHORT of the glory of God, i.e., we fall into sin.   This passage does not say, "COULD fall short."  No, it says that we DO fall short.

You ask, "If I might ask, why do you continue to fail?

Why do I fail and why do I sin?  Because, although I am a "forgiven sinner" -- I am not perfect.  Isn't that why Jesus Christ had to come to earth to die in our place -- because no man is perfect and, therefore, no man could satisfy God's perfect justice.  Only a perfect sacrifice could have satisfied God's perfect justice -- so, He sent His perfect Son, the only perfect human -- to die in our place.

Why do I fail?  Because I have inherited the Adamic sin nature and will have that sin nature until I either die or am Raptured, i.e., until the day of my redemtpion (Ephesians 4:30).

Now, OK, let me ask you a couple of questions.   Why do you consider yourself to be above sinning?   Why do you consider yourself so perfect that you do not sin?   Let's talk about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Oh, perfect...that is hilarious

Bill

I’m not saying I have never sinned. I’m saying the frequency of your sinning makes me a little nervous.

It seems to me you are sinning so grace may abound.

I hope you are not in the sinning business. If so I think your time could be better spent.

“Go and sin no more” (Jesus)

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Sort of like when you're trying to be quiet, (for example, when the baby is sleeping) that's when you make the most noise.

Bill's god sacrificed his son in a most gruesome way so bill could steal paperclips.

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Bill's a self- admitted debauchee.  He's trying to get to heaven on a technicality, and thinks he can fool God.   Pay him no mind.

But, you have said, "That's certainly not the case with me.  I can’t remember the last time I sinned.    Maybe it’s been years.  I don’t know."

Isn't that putting yourself above all the writers of the Bible, especially Paul, who tells us in Romans 5:8, ". . .while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."   And, he tells us in Romans 7:17, "So now, no longer am  I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me." 

Paul tells us that he is a sinner, that he has Satan's "thorn in the flesh" within him.  And, you tell us, "I can’t remember the last time I sinned."  

My Friend, that sounds to me like you are placing yourself on the throne beside Jesus Christ and God.  For, I have never met anyone -- and I know and have known, some very Godly men and women -- who can, or would, say, "I can’t remember the last time I sinned."  

OK, maybe you have just written your response without thinking it through.  But, I am proud to say that I am only a "forgiven sinner."   But, that one day, I will have my immortal, eternal body -- and be like Him in His immortality.   Not God, or a god, but, immortal like my Lord and Savior.

By the way, in the new discussion titled "Perfect Man - OR - "Forgiven Sinner" -- I explain my position in more detail.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill