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Hi all,

This discussion brings to mind an excerpt I read in a tract written by George Sweeting:

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TOMORROW MAY BE TOO LATE!

 

A cartoon was once published in three parts.  In the first scene there was a young man seated at a desk.  At his shoulder stood Jesus Christ, inviting him to be saved.  Politely he told the Lord that he was just launching his career and had no time for anything  else.

The second scene showed a middle-aged man.  He was heavier and well dressed and his larger desk was covered with papers and reports.  Again Christ stood at his elbow.  But, again the man replied with the same answer no time, busy, tomorrow.

The last picture showed an old and graying man at his desk.  At his shoulder stood not the Savior, but the gaunt, bony specter of  Death.  Death, speaking in hollow tones, declared, "I have come for you."   The businessman, with frightened eyes, replied, "Go away, Death, I did not send for you."  But Death refused to be sent away, and the man was ushered into eternity without God.


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Of course, the first two frames of this cartoon do not apply to our atheist and cult Friends, for they do not believe in God -- or they worship a different god who is not the God of the Bible.

However, the third frame of the described cartoon will be the same for all non-believers.   Yes, the "gaunt, bony specter of Death" will be there in those last moments -- and I doubt that anyone, regardless of what he/she has proclaimed throughout this brief mortal life  -- will find his presence comforting.  Yet, for most, it will be too late.

True, as long as a person still has breath in this mortal body -- he/she can turn to Jesus Christ.  However, it is my personal belief that if a person has continued to deny God until that last moment -- his/her frightened heart will not have the strength to speak, to seek the Lord -- before it is too late.

The best time to seek Him?  Right now!  While there is still sufficient time and sufficient awareness.  Otherwise, when that "gaunt,  bony specter of Death" comes knocking -- it will be too late. 

 

At least give this some thought.  Go ahead and bluster, go ahead and huff and puff.  I realize you have an image to uphold.  But, in the privacy of your heart, in the privacy of your soul -- please, do give Him some thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by Loki:
If God commanded you to kill your wife and kids or you would be ****ed to hell for eternity, would you do it? If so is that moral?

----------------------------------------------------

Of course I wouldn't do that, I already know God would never do that today.

Please don't do the worn out Abraham saga. It wouldn't be the same thing today.

 

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The concept of believing something just in case doesn't make sense to me personally, since either a person believes something or not.  Many people die in peace without feeling fear or a desperate urge to call to Jesus, but of course many feel peaceful believing they will be in Heaven (or another lovely place), too.  It is simply a point of view and a place of peace in the heart or not whatever your particular choice is, and I have heard devout Christians who tried to convert everyone around them scream and cry in fear right before they die as well, so I don't think one group has a corner on the "best" way to believe.  This is all subjective and based on upbringing and experiences, and really if one assumes all non-Christians are missing something and need to be saved (despite their happiness with whatever world view they choose) it is unfortunate and only divides people.  The view that one religion (or non-religion, for that matter) dismisses all other belief systems as wrong or not enlightened is one reason there are wars and so much violence and hatred in the world.  

 

There is room for many belief systems, and whatever works for a person is individual really.  If a person is happy believing in God or whatever other deity cool, and if s/he believes there is anything else or nothing as leader of the universe cool too. No one needs to be convinced of what is the "right" path since the choice comes from the heart and can't be forced or insulted into being, so perhaps some tolerance for other views and respect for each other as humans would go a long way toward making this planet a nicer place to live in my opinion.  Actions speak much more loudly than words or beliefs anyway in the long run.

Hi Skippy,

 

Not only that, but God had no intention of Abraham harming Isaac.  This was just one way of pointing us toward the real Lamb of God who would be sacrificed for the sins of the world -- Jesus Christ.

 

We read in Genesis 22:7-8,  "Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, 'My father!'  And he said, 'Here I am, my son.'   And he said, 'Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?'    Abraham said, 'God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son. So the two of them walked on together."

 

That is called FAITH.  And, God honored the faith of Abraham -- just as God honors the faith of the person who will, by the grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ -- believe and receive His precious gift of eternal life. 

 

God began pointing us toward Jesus Christ back in Genesis 3:15 -- and throughout the Old Testament He continued to point us toward our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  Then, in the New Testament, we met our Lord and Savior, the Lamb of God, personally.   And, for all who will follow Him, we have His promise, "He who believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE (John 6:47).

 

Do YOU have enough FAITH to believe in what is so evident -- eternal life with God through Jesus Christ?   Give it a try.  I promise you will be eternally happy if you do.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill Gray, that was my point I think.  I wouldn't sit and tell anyone to "give (insert whatever I believe or don't believe) a try".  I promise you will be eternally happy if you do" because what makes you happy might not make someone else happy.  If a person is truly happy as s/he is and didn't ask for advice on happiness or eternal salvation or whatever, why is there a need to anyone to assume one system of beliefs is "evident" and everyone must try that to be happy?  We all have different lives and experiences, and some Christians, atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and those of any other belief system are happy, productive, and aren't looking for a different set of beliefs.  The point is one person's "faith" may make no sense to anyone else, but that is okay.  That is what faith is and it really isn't anyone's business how much faith anyone has about a particular writing, action, or speech.  

 

Faith isn't something anyone can really demand to quantify or qualify of another or challenge others due to "rightness", but more of a deeply held belief that may or may not be based on facts or be provable. If a person has deeply held beliefs that is wonderful as long as they aren't harming others based on them, but unless someone asks for a better way why do so many people of different religions say theirs is the only "right" way and/or challenge others to come believe as they do? Not all can be the "right" way, so every group but one (and which would that be since many "know" theirs is right?) is either wrong, lying, or perhaps there is more than one path that can lead to happiness and encourage treating others and self with respect and compassion.  

 

I would personally never presume to ask someone how much faith s/he has or tell her/him that if only she would try on mine she would find it is the right one.  I wouldn't assume my path is one that is right for others, and the problem with thinking our way is the only one to eternal life (if a person even believes it is possible or cares) is that the "knowledge" is based on faith and creates division and strife.  That is obvious throughout human history, and with so many people and so many paths on the planet, wouldn't it be much more healing and helpful for each of us to respect each other's beliefs without trying to mold everyone else to our personal belief systems?

Well, Frog, my Friend,

 

In your worldly belief structure or religion -- you have no leader to follow, no leader who has given you a commission to share His Gospel, to share the Written Word of God, with the world.  So, you can cruise along, just telling folks, "Hey, baby, do your own thing!" -- and be happy doing it.

 

But, Christian believers march to a different Drummer.  Our leader, Jesus Christ, left us specific instructions to -- Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, TEACH Them (Matthew 28:19-20), and He told us that He wants us to be His witnesses, i.e., share His Gospel, with all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16;15).

 

If we do not do this -- we are being insubordinate to our Commander-in-Chief.  Can you imagine what would happen in the military if persons -- be they privates or generals -- if their CIC gave them a direct order -- and they refused to follow it? 

 

So, we continue to do as our Leader has instructed us -- until He returns.  And, in doing this -- there will be many, who otherwise might not have gained eternal life -- who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ just because we Christian believers have been faithful to our Leader and His commands.  Just because we have shared His Gospel.

 

Therefore, my Friend, when you venture into the Religion Forum -- expect to be told about God, the Bible, Jesus Christ, and your need for salvation.   If you are already a believer -- praise God.  However, if you are already a believer -- and do not believe in following His Great Commission -- I do have to wonder about that.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

But you really don't know that I have no leader to follow...I mean really you don't, and not every Christian sect demands that all its followers convince others to be whatever sect they are.  I could be any religion or none, but still respect that my beliefs are mine and that this isn't the military..I see what you mean that you believe you should spread the word and understand it based on your beliefs.

 

I guess you made my point again.  Unless this is a Christian religion forum and only Christians who believe just as you do can post, it seems that assuming I am this or that or that I say people should just do their own thing and reminding me that I can be expected to be told I need to do as you do to obtain salvation is a bit odd.  You have no idea what I believe except that I don't want to convince you to believe as I do, and yet you assume I have no leader, no religion, and am wandering lost without a compass in life because I might not be out to make you whatever I am or believe your path is the "right" one.  

 

Others have asked questions or posted comments about the original idea, but your posts in this thread all basically say is that yours is the only way to salvation and that if I post in a forum titled religion I should expect to be told how I need to believe to be happy.  The word religion doesn't mean just one belief system actually, so perhaps there is room for others as well here....well, one could hope, anyway.  

Originally Posted by Chuck Norris:
What is "good" and where did it come from?




Good question.  Here is a well-reasoned response:
Notre Dame: WLC vs. Harris

Excellent post, Chuck.
"Good" is a human concept, largely made up of what is conducive to human comfort and... what's the word?  "happiness" is not quite sufficient.  "Progress" isn't either.  It has to do with perpetuation of our species in a positive and joyful manner.  You've lived to see it, my vocabulary has failed me.

 

DF

Originally Posted by NashBama:

What is "good" and where did it come from?

From wherever it came, it did not come from God.

Goodness is a human construct, formed around our genetic drive to survive.  Goodness is that which makes for the bright city, the compassionate, the kind, the peaceful, the noble, the things that make human survival possible.  Goodness is entirely definable in humanistic terms. 

 

God is not good.  God approves of genocide, filicide, slavery, murder, incest, and a host of other evils recorded in the Bible.  God can only be forgiven when it's understood that he is the creation of imperfect humans.  That understanding answers all the mysterious questions about the dude.

 

DF

Hi Frog,

 

You tell me, ". . .not every Christian sect demands that all its followers convince others to be whatever sect they are."

 

Jesus Christ tells EVERY Christian believer, in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."   We Christian believers call this the Great Commission.

 

Jesus also tells all believers, in Acts 1:,  "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem (our family, our community, our city) , and in all Judea (our state) and Samaria (our nation), and even to the remotest part of the earth."

 

And, Jesus Christ reaffirms this in Mark 16:15, "And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation.' "

 

The first, Matthew 28:19-20, is our Great Commission.  The other two are our "marching orders" from our true Commander-in-Chief, Jesus Christ.

 

No one who calls himself/herself a Biblical Christian -- can ignore these.  So, yes, all Christians should be out there sharing the Gospel with the lost of the world.  If a Christian pastor or priest is not admonishing ALL of his congregation, and ALL Christians he meets -- to be sharing the Word of God with the world -- I would have to question if he is truly a man of God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Deep,

You ask "What is good?"  And, in another discussion, you ask about evil.   Good and evil are, in reality, conditions of the heart.   When one wants to do harm, or to do wrong, against another person -- that comes from the heart.  When one wants to follow God, that initially comes from the heart -- and is nurtured by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said of the Pharisees, in Matthew 15:7-9, "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.  And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "   There are churches today which teach commandments, traditions, creeds, and dogmas written by  men -- as Christian doctrines.  Those come from the hearts and minds of men -- not God.

He also taught, in Matthew 15:10-14, "When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, 'Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.'  Then His disciples came and said to  Him, 'Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?'  But He answered and said, 'Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.' "

What He taught about the Pharisees in Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind -- both will fall into a ditch" -- that could just as well have been said about the atheists and other non-believers of His day and  of our day -- the blind leading the blind.

Matthew 15:18-20,  "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart -- and those defile the man.  For out of the  heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.  These are the things which defile the man."

And, He could have added to that list -- unbelief.  Yes, those who refuse to believe in God, those who, for their own worldly reasons and agendas -- refuse to acknowledge and follow Jesus Christ -- that is the real evil of the world.

Why is this evil?  Because those are the acts of the people who are working so diligently to pull others away from following Jesus Christ; they are the ones who will be responsible for many people not having eternal life in Christ.

So, Deep, you are right -- evil is not a thing -- it is a condition of the heart. 


It is spiritual darkness.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hmm.  Bill, I'm sure you are aware that your whole premise that God demands you all do these things and the persistence with which you insist what you describe is the "right" way is full of quotes from a book that may or may not (depending on whom you ask) have been written by men who had their own opinions as to how people should live and personal agendas for writing those commands? Since there are different interpretations and translations...is it possible somewhere along the way one word might have been taken out of context or mistranslated?  No?  

 

Are you also aware that there are many, many people who see this book as interesting literature, but not an infallible record of what God or Jesus wished for humans and that when a person continually insists his way is the right way it can people off to the very thing he is trying to convince them of in the first place?  So are you really saying that only your own interpretation is correct, and that because you personally doubt a person's "man of God" status because he chooses to live with compassion and honesty, love, caring, and the ideas Jesus mentioned, but not to continually announce his beliefs and insist everyone around him believe as he does, he is still not a man of God ?

 

In your writing it appears you are saying that anyone who is not with you is against you and pulling people from God, so therefore evil.  I think you might not believe the fact that many really don't care if a person is Christian or any other religion and they live happily and fully without worrying about who goes to which church or sleeps in.  I personally find it hard to believe that the tribesman in a remote village who has never heard of any religion or even knows what the word means is pulling people from Christ or evil, and it is really interesting to me that you write that all those who don't choose to follow God are evil.  That is quite a broad statement to make and it presumes that you have intimate knowledge of every human on the planet, all their motivations and agendas, and the right and knowledge upon which to judge their "goodness" or "evilness".  I wonder what that would mean for all the people who have committed horrible crimes in the name of God but did believe and call him Savior?  

 

It all seems to become a circular argument since your faith, mine, and each other person's in the world is different whether all of us believe in Christianity or not.  In the end isn't our own responsibility to live the best we can and harm the least we can and not someone else's?  I take responsibility for my choices and they are no one else's business or fault.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Hi, Frog.

 

Welcome to the COcktail Hour.

 

The better among us here have been discussing the veracities of religion for years, now.  If you have some to offer, please do.  If you are skeptical of them, we're all ears.

 

Pleased to meet you.

 

DF

Thanks for the welcome!  I guess I think religion is just like politics or anything else that comes down to faith or personal beliefs.  It really doesn't matter in the long run if I can prove this or someone can prove that since it is a matter of personal history, experiences, and opinions.  I feel much differently than I did as a child and a teen, young adult, and now as I am older, and when I look back the thing that has stuck with me is a sense that the actions speak much louder than the words whatever the label might be.  I have known evil Christians and wonderful ones (since that seems to be the one discussed here so far in the thread, but it applies to other religions or non-religious people), so I don't think it is the label as much as the truth the person really believes and follows that matters.  Now as for the institution of religion and how it is often used...wow.

 

Hi Frog,

You tell me, "Are you also aware that there are many, many people who see this book as interesting literature, but not an infallible record of what God or Jesus wished for humans and that when a person continually insists his way is the right way it can people off to the very thing he is trying to convince them of in the first place?"

Yes, I am quite aware that those who support a Liberal Theology take this view of the Bible -- and that all non-believers will join in by giving them a big "Atta boy!" to support that belief.  Why?  Because those proponents of that Liberal view of the Bible are playing into the hands of, and supporting, the anti-God teachings of the atheists and other non-believers.  Sure, Deep will give big cheers when the Liberal Theology bunch deny the Bible.  Why not?  It supports his atheism.

Then, you ask me, "So are you really saying that only your own interpretation is correct, and that because you personally doubt a person's "man of God" status because he chooses to live with compassion and honesty, love, caring, and the ideas Jesus mentioned, but not to continually announce his beliefs and insist everyone around him believe as he does, he is still not a man of  God?"

If a pastor, or a church, is not teaching the Biblical teaching of Jesus Christ -- that all Christian should me taking the Gospel to the world, in their own way and through their own means -- then, that pastor, or church, is not teaching the Bible.

You obviously advocate the Social Theology, which is a twin sister with the Liberal Theology -- that the most important thing we must do is to love, live, and let live.  No.  The Bible has one main theme -- salvation for mankind.  That is the main theme and that is the main purpose of the Bible -- to lead man to salvation in Jesus Christ.   Anyone or anything which detracts from that -- such as Liberal and Social Theologies -- is NOT teaching the Bible.  And, if a pastor is not teaching his congregation to share the Gospel --  yes, I question his Godliness.

Next, you tell me, "In your writing it appears you are saying that anyone who is not with you is against you and pulling people from God, so therefore evil."

I don't say that, the Bible does.  Just as a news reporter does not make the news; but, only reports the news -- I, too, only report what God has written in His Bible.

1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has the life -- he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

John 3:36,  "He who believes in the Son has eternal life -- but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God  abides on him."

John 5:24, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life -- and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

I think it is pretty clear that God is telling us, "If you are not for Me -- you are against Me!"

And, you declare, "I think you might not believe the fact that many really don't care if a person is Christian or any other religion -- and they live happily and fully without worrying about who goes to which church or sleeps in."

True, I realize that the atheists, agnostics, secularists, and all vanilla-flavored non-believers could care less who does what or with whom.

However, when Jesus Christ tells ALL Christian believers -- Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, Teach Them (Matthew 28:19-20) --  and when He tells us to be His witnesses in all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15) -- that does not sound like He wants us to not care if a person has His "free gift" of eternal life -- or not.

When the 120 disciples of Jesus Christ waited in the Upper Room -- and then were indwelled and empowered with the Holy Spirits --  I am quite positive that God's intention was not that they should go and be "couch potato" Christians.  No, God, through the Holy Spirit empowered those disciples -- who then went out to the crowd of people in Jerusalem and shared the Gospel. 

 

That day, 3000  people accepted the "free gift" of eternal life paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ -- and became Christian believers.  A few days later, the disciples preached the Gospel again -- and 4000 more were added to the church, the body of believers.  That would not have happened if those 120 disciples had just taken the gift of salvation, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- and gone home.

God does not tell us to become Christian believers and then sit on our butts.   No, He wants us out sharing His Word with the world.  So, yes, all Christian believers should, and must, care about our fellow man and his eternal life.

Then, you suggest, "I personally find it hard to believe that the tribesman in a remote village who has never heard of any religion or even knows what the word means is pulling people from Christ or evil, and it is really interesting to me that you write that all those who don't choose to follow God are evil."

Surprise, my Friend, God has also thought of that problem.  We read in Romans 2:14-16, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

There is a fantastic book titled "Eternity In Their Hearts" written by Don Richardson and it discusses this very issue -- natives in remote jungles and on remote islands -- for whom God has provided, just as we are told in the Scripture passage in Romans 2.

You say, "That is quite a broad statement to make and it presumes that you have intimate knowledge of every human on the planet, all their motivations and agendas, and the right and knowledge upon which to judge their 'goodness' or 'evilness.'"

I do not make the statement -- God does -- as I have shown above.   I have not declared these people to be anything.  God has addressed this in His Bible.  Once again, go back and read Romans 2:14-16.

You ask, "I wonder what that would mean for all the people who have committed horrible crimes in the name of God but did believe and call him Savior?"

Actually, there is only one sin.  And, that is the sin of disobedience.  Regardless of which sin you want to name -- they are all equal in the eyes of God.  Disobedience to God is sin -- whether it be stealing a pencil -- or killing a thousand people.  The sin Adam committed was not eating fruit -- but, disobeying God.

And, any and all sins can be forgiven if a person will turn from the world, and turn, in repentance, to follow Jesus Christ.  Yes, Judas and Hitler could have been forgiven and had eternal life with God -- if they had done this.  But, the Bible tells us that Judas did not.   And, I would doubt very seriously that Hitler had a moment of salvation before he took his own life and that of his mistress.

Yes, all sin can be forgiven, even atheism and disbelief.  There is only one sin which cannot be forgiven -- and that is to die while still denying Jesus Christ.  Why is this unforgivable?  Because, when a person dies still denying God and Jesus Christ -- there is NO second chance.  Anyone can have eternal life in Christ -- IF they get their reservations before leaving this life.   Once you have  breathed your last breath in this mortal body -- your eternal fate is set in concrete.

Next, you suggest, "It all seems to become a circular argument since your faith, mine, and each other person's in the world is different whether all of us believe in Christianity or not.  In the end, isn't our own responsibility to live the best we can and harm the least we can and not someone else's?  I take responsibility for my choices and they are no one else's business or fault."

If a person is a Christian believer -- that person HAS eternal life in Christ.  If a person is of any other religion, any other belief -- that  person DOES NOT have eternal life in Christ.  It does not matter how good a person one is -- or how many good deeds one has  done.  The most important thing a person can do -- is to establish a personal, saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

It cannot be done in any of the world religions.  It cannot be done in any cult religion.  This personal relationship with Jesus Christ can only be attained through being a Christian believer.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 14:6, "I am the WAY, and the TRUTH, and the LIFE -- NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me."   That, my Friend, says it all.

You tell us, "I guess I think religion is just like politics or anything else that comes down to faith or personal beliefs.  It really doesn't matter in the long run if I can prove this or someone can prove that -- since it is a matter of personal history, experiences, and opinions."

No, my Friend, Christianity is not like politics, religion, or anything else.  Politics, religion, and whatever "anything else" is -- gives you something to occupy your time in this very brief life.   But, Christianity offers you eternal life in Christ, eternal life in the wonderful presence of God.  The only alternative to that is eternal life away from God -- and, that, my Friend, is hell.

You share, "I feel much differently than I did as a child and a teen, young adult, and now as I am older, and when I look back the thing that has stuck with me is a sense that the actions speak much louder than the words whatever the label might be."

You say, "as a child and a teen, young adult, and now as I am older" -- that you look back.  I am just curious -- how great is that  "looking back" gap?  Somehow, I get the feeling that you are not too far removed from being "a child, a teen, and a young adult."  I  may be wrong, and if so, I apologize -- but, I would guess you are in your thirties, maybe forties.  Not that this is bad -- but, at that age life can still be a worldly pair of rose colored glasses.

When I was that age, I was like you, very much in the world.  I loved the world and all the fun and good things the world offered.  I did not become a Christian believer until I was fifty -- but, my life has not been the same since.  It could be like that for you, also.

Once again, I am just curious.  Do you consider yourself to be an atheist, an agnostic, just a plain old vanilla-flavored non-believer -- or are you possibly a seeker?

Finally, Frog, you tell us, "I have known evil Christians and wonderful ones (since that seems to be the one discussed here so far in the thread, but it applies to other religions or non religious people), so I don't think it is the label as much as the truth the person really believes and follows that matters.  Now as for the institution of religion and how it is often used...wow."

I, too, have known some rather questionable Christians.  Yet, I would not label them evil.  By the same token, no one can label all atheists as evil.  I suppose I have labeled some actions of the atheist as evil -- but, not the person.  To me, when an atheist, or any person, purposely attempts to thwart the Gospel of Jesus Christ from saving a person's eternal soul -- that is evil.  Now, the person  doing it may not be evil, and his intent may not be evil -- but, his actions most certainly are evil.

Back to the questionable Christians -- I would have to wonder how many of those folks are only "Sunday go to meeting" Christians  on Sundays -- and a "Let the devil takes his dues" Christian the rest of the week?  Frog, not all folks who wear the Christian hat --  are Christian believers.  Many folks have different reasons for wearing the hat on Sundays -- and living like hell the rest of the week.

But, whether a person has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ -- or the person is in some other belief or world religion -- DOES make a huge difference.  Actually, it makes an eternal difference.  And, the person's eternal soul rests in the balance.

Where do you stand?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris:
What is "good" and where did it come from?




Good question.  Here is a well-reasoned response:
Notre Dame: WLC vs. Harris

Excellent post, Chuck.
"Good" is a human concept, largely made up of what is conducive to human comfort and... what's the word?  "happiness" is not quite sufficient.  "Progress" isn't either.  It has to do with perpetuation of our species in a positive and joyful manner.  You've lived to see it, my vocabulary has failed me.

 

DF

 

 

Another question. "Good" is a concept to benefit human comfort and perpetuation of the species. Let's say I'm walking behind a rich old guy and a hundred dollar bill falls out of his pocket. He's rich, so he'll never notice it's missing. I'm not, so it would help me out.

 

Would it be good to keep the money since it would benefit me and provide a small amount of joy, even though it doesn't belong to me?

 

Would it be evil to return the money, since evil is a departure from good?

Bill, no, I am not in my 30s or 40s.  I am in my 50s and have lived many places, known people from many religions and worldviews, and come to a place of peace with who I am and who I am to be in this life.  I am a seeker in that there is always more to learn and I wouldn't presume to know my own worldview is the only right one.  I understand your insistence that your particular brand of religious views is the only correct one and wouldn't think of trying to talk you out of it.  I've heard it from several viewpoints over the years from people who espouse dogma from one extreme to the other, and those who insist theirs is the only way to be happy or have "eternal life" with a complete soul will often go to great lengths to convert others or prove their points of view (to them the only path to salvation).  

 

Really if you are happy that is wonderful and I wish you peace.  I could comment more on your worldview, but all I will say is I have seen it many times spoken by those from many religions and political views, and they are all the only "right" way to believe.  I would say what a person believes or doesn't is only a big deal in reality to him/her, but I do understand that your viewpoint doesn't allow for that privacy or differences in interpretation and accept that.

 

Another question. "Good" is a concept to benefit human comfort and perpetuation of the species. Let's say I'm walking behind a rich old guy and a hundred dollar bill falls out of his pocket. He's rich, so he'll never notice it's missing. I'm not, so it would help me out.

Would it be good to keep the money since it would benefit me and provide a small amount of joy, even though it doesn't belong to me?

Would it be evil to return the money, since evil is a departure from good?

 

 

Well, for me personally the money isn't mine and it would be good to return it and not so good to keep it.  But I agree the concept of good and God and everything else we keep in our heads are constructs of humans and not anything else, so it isn't surprising that the concept of good would be used by different groups to keep members in line or to encourage certain behaviors.  The idea of being good to impress Santa Claus is one thing that comes to mind, and all parents who use Santa Claus to encourage good behavior don't require the same "good" acts to earn the goodies. Good would relate to Karma as well, and things tend to get tangled up there too.

 

A pride of lions who kill a zebra to feed themselves aren't evil, but adhering more to the natural order than most of what we do, actually.  What is "good" in one culture is often evil in another whether the cultures have other similar laws or social mores or not.  We even tend to see other creatures and aspects of the environment as good or bad...interesting how we would assign those ideas to other species that have no clue or interest in our labels for them, but that goes back to the idea of one group being "right" I think.  

So let's say you see the hundred dollar bill fall out of the rich guy's pocket and return it. You view this as a good action.

 

I see the hundred dollar bill fall out and I keep it because I could use the grocery money. I see this as a good action because it helps me feed my family.

 

Same situation, two opposite choices, both choices viewed as good. So the question is, who is right or is good relative?

Originally Posted by NashBama:

So let's say you see the hundred dollar bill fall out of the rich guy's pocket and return it. You view this as a good action.

 

I see the hundred dollar bill fall out and I keep it because I could use the grocery money. I see this as a good action because it helps me feed my family.

 

Same situation, two opposite choices, both choices viewed as good. So the question is, who is right or is good relative?

My oppinion, if you found the 100 dollar bill and didn't know where it came from,

Finders Keepers.

If you saw the 100 dollar bill fall out of a persons' pocket you should give it back.

First off, how do you know the guy is rich? What if it was a rich gal? What's the difference if thier rich or not? If you saw who's dropped it, and kept it, that is stealing. This attitude is a socialist attitude. To think anyone owes you anything. If the guy wanted to give you a 20 dollar reward fine, but your not owed anything.

 

Skippy

Originally Posted by NashBama:

So let's say you see the hundred dollar bill fall out of the rich guy's pocket and return it. You view this as a good action.

 

I see the hundred dollar bill fall out and I keep it because I could use the grocery money. I see this as a good action because it helps me feed my family.

 

Same situation, two opposite choices, both choices viewed as good. So the question is, who is right or is good relative?


Kind of a silly premise.  There is no "good" or "bad."  If you are starving and need to feed your family, there is nothing but "good" here for you and no real harm done to the rich guy. On the other hand, i a cop sees you do that, you will be rightfully arrested for stealing. 

Let's cut to the chase:  You say "good" comes from the magical sky man and will offer zero empirical proof for the assertion.  I insist, with ample evidence, that good and bad and what we call morals are a natural result of evolution of societal animals.  Animals must have certain innate rules to follow or reproduction does not occur as freely. So we evolved from the pond scum all they way up to recognize threats and opportunities to further our genes to the next generation.

The basis for all this morality is, quite obviously, our innate need to reproduce.  Every single law you can come up with will have genetic propagation as the basis.  Ga head, try me.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris:
What is "good" and where did it come from?




Good question.  Here is a well-reasoned response:
Notre Dame: WLC vs. Harris

Excellent post, Chuck.
"Good" is a human concept, largely made up of what is conducive to human comfort and... what's the word?  "happiness" is not quite sufficient.  "Progress" isn't either.  It has to do with perpetuation of our species in a positive and joyful manner.  You've lived to see it, my vocabulary has failed me.

 

DF

I watched it all df.

I for one appreciate your honesty.

Hi Uno,  

You tell Nash, "Let's cut to the chase:  You say 'good' comes from the magical sky man and will offer zero empirical proof for the  assertion.  I insist, with ample evidence, that good and bad and what we call morals are a natural result of evolution of societal  animals.  Animals must have certain innate rules to follow or reproduction does not occur as freely.  So we evolved from the pond scum all they way up to recognize threats and opportunities to further our genes to the next generation."

Okay, Uno, we can finally come to an agreement.   YOU come from pond scum and, I come from God.  You can choose to live like pond scum and I will choose to follow God.   And, we can live happily ever after.

Now, see, isn't it nice to agree with other folks, even folks who come from pond scum?

However, I see just one small problem in your camp.  Deep tells us he came from an ape/monkey and you say you came from pond scum.   How do you two, who are devout in your atheist religion, reconcile this difference?   I suppose, just like there are different denominations in the Protestant church -- there must be different denominations within the atheist religion -- one is the pond scum  denomination -- and the other is the ape/monkey denomination.  Oh, well, as long as you both are happy.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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