Bill is even more off-base than that.  Let's face it, persecution of blacks in this country goes back to the first slave brought here.  Water hoses and dogs?  Try torture, lynching, and outright murder (and I'm still talking about the 50s and 60s).

 

How about it, Bill.  Any of these happen to you?

Originally Posted by Glass Onion:

You've had the fire hoses turned on you and dogs let loose to attack you because you wanted prayer in schools or before a football game?  

_________________________________

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Bill is even more off-base than that.  Let's face it, persecution of blacks in this country goes back to the first slave brought here.  Water hoses and dogs?  Try torture, lynching, and outright murder (and I'm still talking about the 50s and 60s).

How about it, Bill.  Any of these happen to you?

______________________________

Good points from both of you, & very true.

Bill will probably make a joke from what you said but your post makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

How ds? By stopping them from praying at ballgames? Oh wait-nevermind.

Where's Mr. Green's 'outrage' over all of the government intrusion into our lives? WHAT HARM....to ANYone...Green included...did Mo Brooks do?


What are you talking about?

dogsoldier, do you personally know Mr. Green? If not why do you think he would only be concerned with this issue?

 

What the local county school system has been doing is illegal. He pointed this out as a concerned citizen. Standing up for the rights of ALL Americans is very patriotic and admirable.

 

I have been reading post made by local Christians on Facebook, and the TD. I am shocked at the level of ignorance people have concerning our Constitution and our laws. They are now "threatening" to pray out loud from the stands. I find this hilarious. For some reason they think they will be fighting against Mr. Green and the Constitution by doing this. I hope they do it. I think it would be awesome! Maybe then they will understand that no one is trying to take their God away or prevent them from praying. The only thing they can't do is lead a prayer to Jesus Christ (or any other god) over the PA system. We do not live in a theocracy and I for one want to keep it that way.

 

I read one post where they were "brainstorming" on ways to combat this evil thing by meeting across the street and praying and then having the local police to stop traffic while they crossed back and forth 72 hwy.......Now that makes sense. LOL

 

Mr. Green is receiving threats and hate filled mail. I have every confidence that he will be able to handle the heat, but it is simply ridiculous that these Christians have taken it to this kind of level. Most of them say that Mr. Green and anyone else that does not believe as they do can just stay home, or plug their ears. Why should he or anyone else have to do that? Do the beliefs of Christians trump the rights of American citizens? No, and hopefully it never will.

I have said it before and will say it again, I'm all for a Christian prayer being led before events but if it's a school sanctioned event and if the law says that we have to be fair to all belief systems then I would rather give up the Christian prayer over the PA than to have to have to give a turn at the mic to a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc.

I personally like the way it was handled in Arab with how the Christian community reacted & prevailed. If Lauderdale County School's leadership does not think that they can successfully defend the current practice in court then I think offering a moment of reflection would be an appropriate measure until this whole thing blows over. If a moment of reflection before school sponsored events is all we get then I would hope that the Lauderdale County Christian community would continuously show up at the events to pray during that time.

As for the whole going across the street thing then I say do not let God be run out of the stadium and across the street, as for stopping traffic while you cross the road, that’s just crazy & spiteful and doing such a thing is not exactly going to win any converts.

With the above said, I do prefer that God be acknowledged in all that we do but at the same time the practice of a prayer over the PA before games can come back to bite us because if prayer can always be led at public schools at the discretion of staff then there is the danger of non Christian staff practicing their religion with our children and us not being able to do anything about it so we should be careful of the particulars of exactly what we are fighting/arguing for and realize that the official outcome will be fair to all religions.

 that’s just crazy & spiteful and

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Par for the course for the radical religious. They don't think the law applies to them. One way to handle it I guess is to start inviting all the other religions to attend and lead their prayers.

I don't understand what would be accomplished by people across the street and blocking traffic.  No one said anything about God not being allowed in the stadium.  If God is omnipotent he can't be forced out of anywhere, and that also means he can hear thoughts and quiet prayers.  So what is the difference between a moment of silence that gives time for everyone to pray or think or do whatever quiet they wish, and having prayers yelled over loudspeakers if he can hear everyone and knows what is in everyone's heart?  I'm being sincere here...the only difference I see is that if there is yelling everyone there has to hear it as well whether they want to or not.  I didn't understand it when I was in school from  young childhood and I still don't.

 

If I give my spouse a glance or smile he knows what I'm saying without verbal exchange....why wouldn't God hear the prayers as well without the yelling in stadiums since he's been around forever and knows us all so intimately?  Didn't Jesus say he liked things understated and private without show and fanfare anyway?  I just don't understand that part besides people trying to get everyone else to pray with them?

 

If we had prayer time out loud for every other group  it would be a big prayer meeting.  How is that playing a game?  A moment of silence gives everyone a chance to pray if desired.

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This from a man that has NO problem at all discriminating against others and wanting to deny them their rights. He posts BS like this right along with his threads calling other denominations "cults" and his ****** posts against homosexuals or anyone that doesn't believe or believe like him. This has been pointed out to him before, but every time he does it I'm going to point it out to him again. Come on bill, give us just ONE, just ONE example of how christians are treated like the blacks were in the 50s, 60s. Oh and btw bill, just who was treating them like that? Atheists?  So come on bill, give us a few examples. You want YOUR right to pray at ballgames or anywhere else, you just don't want others to have that same right. But you don't want a theocracy? Pftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

I was asked about this subject on another forum & answered.  I had avoided this thread & suddenly felt a little guilty about that.  I should be willing to voice my opinion regardless of likely animosity.  So, as I said on another forum...

 

To be honest, this is always a difficult one for me. I wouldn't like it if some other religion prayed, chanted, sang (whatever they might do) to their god before my kids' or grandkid's ballgames. However, since I am a believer, I also know how helpful prayer is before doing anything. It's a conundrum for the thinking Christian. We understand his complaint, the quite valid place from which it comes, but also understand that inviting God in is always better than showing him the door.

 

I asked my son his opinion.  He said nothing can stop an individual from praying and regardless of the decision to be made, those that want to pray can still pray and those who do not, will not.  I agree.  When it's all said and done, It may be much ado about nothing.

Thoughtful response, Joy, and I understand what you mean

 

I wouldn't personally feel I was showing God the door by not praying out loud since I would still pray to myself if I wanted, and I would think that all the individual prayers would resonate together.  I agree putting out some positive energy before an event...praying, energy, good thoughts, getting focused...isn't a bad idea at all.  It's just how it is done that is the issue, and I think your son is very wise

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.

Originally Posted by frog:

A moment of silence gives everyone a chance to pray if desired.

True.  It would allow agreement in prayer by believers who wish to participate.  Since those who do not want to pray cannot hear the prayer, it leaves no room for complaint...excepting those who complain because they enjoy it so much.

Originally Posted by frog:

Thoughtful response, Joy, and I understand what you mean

 

I wouldn't personally feel I was showing God the door by not praying out loud since I would still pray to myself if I wanted, and I would think that all the individual prayers would resonate together.  I agree putting out some positive energy before an event...praying, energy, good thoughts, getting focused...isn't a bad idea at all.  It's just how it is done that is the issue, and I think your son is very wise


Thanks, frog.  I think so, too, but I am a wee bit biased.  

 

That's a good point regarding how to use the moment of silence.  Those not praying can use the moment of silence in a positive way as well.

Problem is some christians claim everything is an attack. If someone starts "preaching or witnessing" to me and I tell them I don't believe and don't want to hear it, they call it an attack against their god. To me they're the "attackers" so to speak, when they start with me or start handing out their little leaflets, or knock on my door wanting contributions for religious organizations or events.

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.

I never approach anyone and say to them "are you saved from religion? Can I tell you all about atheism"?  I don't go door to door soliciting funds for atheist programs or causes. If by open minded you mean I should have to stand and listen to unsolicited  "witnessing or mini-sermons" , then stand still for the "insults" some like to give when you tell them you don't believe, then I'd say no, my mind isn't open to that.

I don't go door to door either, Best.  Just as all Christians are not like me, not all Atheists are like you.  The obnoxious exist in all groups.  The obnoxious in your group deserve to be acknowledged every bit as the obnoxious in mine...haha. 

 

One person insisting on complete innocence or insisting on complete guilt on behalf of their group or an 'opposing' group' is just not true.  Unless it's a really really small group, and perhaps not even then, one person cannot speak on behalf of a group because we are all individuals with our own set of beliefs, talents, opinions, backgrounds, circumstances, etc. 

 

We cannot know the mind of another individual just because we have one thing in common.  Conversely, we cannot know the mind of another just because we are opposites in some areas of our lives. 

 

We also do not deserve to be thrown together in one pot simply because we have something in common. You and I are both women...does that mean I know your mind?...no, of course not...and it doesn't make me responsible for your actions either.  I'm not saying that is what you are doing...just making the observation.

BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.


 

LOL...I'm "chatted up" by Atheists every time I come here.  If they are not trying to "convert", might need to see a therapist about that obsession with Christianity issue...being facetious here of course, but there is some truth to that.

 

So, if I'm understanding you, you are comfortable with Christians and Atheists voicing their beliefs in a public forum...just not on your doorstep.  I can agree with that.

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposed to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Bill

The God I serve does not need the state force feeding prayer to touch hearts and lives. This is demonstrated in the lives of his people. I am sorry that you think prayers repeated over a loudspeaker at a ball game means so much. Really you do put God in a box.

 

AMEN!

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF


 

Sounds almost like a baited question but what the heck, I'll bite. The reason that the others are distinct from Christianity is because there is only one God and his son is Jesus so that means Christians are right and all the others are just full of crap. Excuse me for being blunt but I prefer to keep it short and simple when I can.

As can likely be told from what I said in other posts, I have mixed feelings about prayer over the PA, I do like to see a Christian prayer being lead over the PA but at the same time I do realize that there are potential side effects which would be detrimental to Christianity so I am personally OK with a moment of reflection or whatever you want to call it where people can either pray by themselves silently, out loud, or however they wish OR that groups can participate in prayers that are lead by others in the audience and of course if someone does not want to participate then they don’t have to.

As for young Mr. Green, it's obvious that he has some need for attention and that his "in your face" atheism is the path he has chosen to get attention and at that, he was successful so I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes as he has likely impressed some of his atheist friends and ticked off most of the rest of the county.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Joy,

 

At the risk of chatting you up , YES it's illegal for a public school to sponsor such prayers.  It has been ruled a violation of the First Amendment.  That is why Lauderdale Co. doesn't just tell the FFRF to go away.

 

DF


You ole chatterer, you.

 

Sorry, I was asking for the law which allowed them to rule that way.  I was hoping someone had it handy.  I may or may not agree with their ruling or it may not apply to this case, not that it would make a difference to anyone but myself...haha...I don't see how the First Amendment applies to prayer at a high school football game?

 

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with Christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposted to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.


Believers are highly interested in Christianity because we are Christians.  Do what everywhere and to everyone?

 

I think we agree on forum vs. front porch; that obviously pains you.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.

Originally Posted by _Joy_:

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.


You are right in this.  It isn't what "sides" people are on that determines the progress or outcome of a  discussion or negotiation.  I would say that if negotiators went into discussions backed by governments who sent them to be seriously bent on being fair and working for compromise and the interests of all concerned, we wouldn't have many wars, and the same goes for the Religion Forum.

Pains me? So what if christianity is important to you, it still doesn't explain the obsession and wanting it in every area of peoples lives, business and politics.  If people want atheists to keep quiet about atheism then they should keep quiet about their christianity.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

First of all please note that I said "HISTORY AS A WHOLE" not today's Christian  vs African Americans in the 60's and before. Otherwise you are right in that this should not be a contest of who's more discriminated against, its a p*s***g contest and I should not have responded to all of those who made light of the discrimination that Christians face both now and throughout history. 

What about his past fred? And what about the "other sides past"? And it's your opinion only that the others are wrong. I guess it must feel awful for christians to "give up"  what they mistakenly think is their "right" because they're so afraid they'd have to allow others to have the same rights.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.


So you can pray and acknowledge anyone you want and no one cares if you do or is trying to stop you.  Just please do your thing off the PA or to yourself just as I will not yell how I feel about the universe over the PA system.  Sure...do that...to yourself..and there will be no problem at all.

 

So if you want to feel they are wrong cool, but others do get to have opinions and have a say in things as well however we might happen to feel about something.

I think as long as it was christians burning, hanging, torturing other christians it was OK and not spoken of by the christian masses. Like I ask bill, who was doing all that discriminating against blacks? Had to be a few million christians involved. But like anything else, it's fine when they do it but they want to cry when they think they're being mistreated. And look at what they consider persecution.

Why the contest for which group suffers discrimination and attack most often?  Crimes of prejudice are crimes, regardless of the victim.

 

Just as an aside, it is too bad that people who fancy themselves martyrs cannot speak with those who actually are martyrs.  A first hand account of such a terrifying experience might just snuff out that fancy for good.  You can, however, hear first hand account of crimes of prejudice.  If you have not suffered such a crime, pretending you have is insulting and dishonoring to those who have.  Someone disagreeing with you is not a a crime of prejudice.  JMHO

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