By Sherhonda Allen
City Editor

The Lauderdale County school district is accused of violating the First Amendment by allowing prayers that invoke Jesus Christ to be broadcast over the loudspeaker before Brooks High School football games and at non-district games played on school property.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation calls the prayers illegal. Organizational representatives have written two letters to the school district on behalf of Lauderdale County resident Jeremy L. Green, who confirmed he filed the complaint with the foundation.

“It is coercive and inappropriate to ask students to listen while a prayer is delivered at athletic events,” Freedom From Religion Foundation staff attorney Stephanie Schmitt said in a news release emailed to the TimesDaily on Monday. “This is especially disturbing given the young age of these students.”

Lauderdale County schools Superintendent Bill Valentine said he has received the complaint.

“We have referred that to our attorney for him to research and to make a response,” Valentine said. “Some of the things they have mentioned are youth ball games that are not ours, but do take place on our campuses.”

Green, in an email response requested by the TimesDaily, said he is not trying to prevent individual Christians from praying, but that the law is clear.

“I am simply taking a stand for the Establishment Clause and the separation of church and state in an effort to protect the constitutional rights of the nonreligious,” he said.

“It is illegal for any public school to organize, sponsor or lead prayer at public athletic events,” said Green, who is a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Humanists of the Shoals, and American Atheists. “The Supreme Court of the United States of America has continually made rulings which strike down this practice as illegal.

“Student or faculty-led prayer at high school athletic events could be confusing for impressionable children who are raised in nonreligious or non-Christian homes and see the faculty member or student who is leading the prayer as a school sponsored authority figure.

“It is not the job of the public school system to endorse religion.”

Though Green specifically mentioned athletic events, he and the foundation’s representatives have included all school-sponsored events in the complaint.

“We ask that the school district commence an immediate investigation into the complaints alleged and take immediate action to stop any and all prayers occurring before any school-sponsored event,” Schmitt said.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Madison, Wis., is a nonprofit group that bills itself as an educational organization and the nation’s largest association of freethinkers, including atheists and agnostics. According to its news release, there are 17,000 members nationwide — 150 in Alabama — and a state chapter, the Alabama Freethought Association.

The foundation lists more than 100 “legal successes” since 2009 on its website.

The organization is the same group that sent a letter to the Arab school system, contending that school district was violating the First Amendment and the rights of one family in the Arab community.

As a result of the letter, Arab Superintendent John Mullins in September ceased pregame prayers at Arab High School football games. Those games now begin with a moment of silence.

    
Original Post

The Freedom from Religion Foundation is correct in their interpretation of the constitution as it relates to school-sponsored prayer or other school-sponsored religious activity.  As to non-governmental groups that are not school-affiliated, but that might sometimes use the school's athletic facilities, there is no constitutional reason that such group can not have prayers or other religious exercises on the school's property, so long as those activities are strictly directed and controlled by the private interests, and not the school (an arm of government). It is not clear from the article whether the Freedom from Religion Foundation's complaint would extend to such private activities on school grounds.

 

A public school can make its property available to all kinds of groups, religious and otherwise.  It is not uncommon for churches to lease space in public school facilities to conduct church services.  Of course, the school system must not discriminate in favor of one religious group or another, which would imply an endorsement.  I know of no controversy that has emerged from such a practice.

 

For a long time, in the "Bible Belt" and elsewhere, public, school-endorsed prayers have been commonplace and have generally gotten a "free ride," so to speak, since the practice is very widespread and since there is rarely anyone who is motivated to object to the practice on constitutional grounds.  Lauderdale County officials would be wise to cease the practice rather than to bear the legal costs of vainly attempting to defend it. The downside of such a decision would be to invite ignorant criticism from the under-educated, hard-nosed right wing die-hards who will continue to lament that, "The Supreme Court has taken God out of our schools" and who will condemn the responsible officials for not "standing up for Jesus."

Some of the comments under the story were hilarious, especially the one from the person that didn't know mr. green and had no idea how to contact him, but still went right ahead and told mr. green about his life. Then he left his email address for mr. green so they could "discuss" it. I wonder what this man's qualifications are that he can sit on a forum and tell someone he doesn't know how they live and think and their educational background. I like the part where he proclaims he's not even a christian. Uh huh, sure- wink wink. The "christians" on the forum may want to look away when you get to the word delusional. And I like the part too where this person, on the verge of losing it, accuses mr. green of having rage. LOL!!

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I've been looking for Jeremy Green's contact information but haven't been able to find it. I decided to leave this here.

 

Jeremy, I could hardly be called a Christian, but you **** me off. You scream about your First Amendment rights, which you've twisted to the point they don't even remotely resemble what's in the Constitution, but you are completely oblivious to the rights of others. You've built up some fantasy of what you want the Constitution to be for you and have somehow convinced yourself that it is reality. Nice work, for sure, but most people in the mental health field would call that delusional. I've never met you, but I've met many, many people just like you. I'm sure I can describe you pretty well. Let me try:

 

You're relatively uneducated with probably a HS degree and you've taken maybe a college class or two, but little more. You did well in the classes you took, but couldn't be bothered to invest the time in continuing. You don't see the value in education because you feel you're the capstone of enlightenment and you have probably been known to claim that you "know better than those teachers anyway".

 

You don't really have much of a career, but that isn't your fault, right? It's those mean old companies who just can't see the value in your skeptic ways who are to blame. That's OK with you because you're going to have the last laugh, right?

 

All of that was just for fun. Here's what I really want to say about you:

 

You don't really distrust or dislike Christians in particular. It's all people in all walks of life that you are wary of. You've just found Christians to be easy marks for your rage, and that, Jeremy, is the essence of your problem. You're a pathetic little self-centered, ignorant ego-maniac with a poor self image who has never moved past the grade school bully stage. You feel that a tough persona will make you feel better about yourself, but that hasn't really worked, has it?

 

So now you resort to whining to some anti-christian group, not because you're upset with Christians, but because you're so miserable in the shallow, worthless life you've built for yourself that you'll resort to this just to feel a bit of power. It's control you seek rather than "freedom from religion" and you think this group can bring you a small taste.

 

Fortunately for you, the targets you've chosen are mostly good and caring people who won't retaliate. They feel compassion towards your pathetic existence. I don't. I'm not good or caring. I don't feel anything toward your misery, but I do get ****ed off at worthless wastes of humanity like you who can't mind their own business. If you can't read a simple statement like the First Amendment and understand that it means the exact opposite of what you want it to mean, you're a lost cause. No wonder your family has deserted you.

 

Want to discuss this further? You can reach me at mghallman@gmail.com. I look forward to hearing you cry.

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Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Some of the comments under the story were hilarious, especially the one from the person that didn't know mr. green and had no idea how to contact him, but still went right ahead and told mr. green about his life. Then he left his email address for mr. green so they could "discuss" it. I wonder what this man's qualifications are that he can sit on a forum and tell someone he doesn't know how they live and think and their educational background. I like the part where he proclaims he's not even a christian. Uh huh, sure- wink wink. The "christians" on the forum may want to look away when you get to the word delusional. And I like the part too where this person, on the verge of losing it, accuses mr. green of having rage. LOL!!

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___________________________________

That description could fit our forum wanna be preacher. 

mghallman is among the legions of clueless wingnuts who actually believe that their interpretation of the First Amendment trumps that of the U.S Supreme Court. Mghallman takes the nonsense one step further in his/her silly venture into attempted clairvoyant analysis of Mr. Green's life history and motivation. Mghallman's characterization of Mr. Green's legitimate complaint as "whining" is especially obnoxious.  No one who contends for the proper application of established  constitutional principles should ever be classified as a "whiner." But the beat will continue to go on, as those who, like mghallman, continue to labor under the delusion that people like Mr. Green are delusional.

I did think it was odd that "shoalanda" thought it was her place to post about that, but i guess she feels it's her "christian duty". But she should realize too that others can do the same. There are plenty of "upstanding" religious folks that have legal problems. I know of one preacher that has a habit of writing bad checks. Will she do a background check on ALL involved in the "conflict"? Oh well.

Yes, Shoalda's personal attacks and attempts to expose Mr. Green say more about her than it does about Mr. Green. I disagree with Mr. Greens philosophy but he has a right to it.  Whatever happened to Jesus'  command to pray in private? 

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.

quote:   Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


Hi Red,

 

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Don't you just love it when all the atheists and other vanilla-flavored non-believers wet their pants when we mention Jesus Christ?

 

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Well you'd have to tell us about wyp, I've never done that. What I do love is when you get your  ***** knocked down when you think the laws don't apply to you. BTW, what did sheronda allen do besides report a news story? Could your addled brain be mixing her up with shoalanda?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

Don't you just love it when all the atheists and other vanilla-flavored non-believers wet their pants when we mention Jesus Christ?  Do you suppose it is because they are afraid to remove the blanky from over their heads and recognize that God created and owns this world, them included, and they WILL stand before Him one day -- to explain their superior intellects (?) which deny Him.  

While I know we Christian believers will not be there when they DO stand before Him -- but, haven't you thought about being a "fly on the wall" just once -- to see their faces when they finally cannot deny the Truth?

No, I am not gloating that they will stand before Him in judgment -- only stating the Truth.  They will!!  And, they should be preparing to avoid that judgment instead of wasting so much effort in denying the very Obvious. 

Bill

___________________________________

Don't you just love it when our perfect resident wanna be preacher puts on his Christian hat & comes on here to tell us we’re all going to Hell & in all his excitement, he wets his pants?

 

 Do you suppose he’s afraid to remove the blanky from over his head & recognize that God is the only Judge, & he WILL stand before Him one day -- to explain his superior attitude, to find out that his superior intellect (?) wasn’t all he thought it was?

 

Of course, who knows, we might be there when Bill stands before Him -- but, if we aren’t, wouldn’t you love to be a "fly on the wall"  just once -- to see Bill’s face when he finally cannot deny the Truth of what we’ve tried to tell him? 

 

No, I am not gloating that Bill will stand before Him in judgment……Oh, Ok, I’m gloating! And only stating the Truth. He will!! 

And, he should be preparing to avoid that judgment instead of wasting so much effort judging us all when he should be getting the beam out of his own eye!

 

 

Bill

The God I serve does not need the state force feeding prayer to touch hearts and lives. This is demonstrated in the lives of his people. I am sorry that you think prayers repeated over a loudspeaker at a ball game means so much. Really you do put God in a box.

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

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Really bill? As bad as prejudice in the 1950s? Really? And what is your OBSESSION with people wetting their pants?? Gaggggggggggggggggg

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

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Really bill? As bad as prejudice in the 1950s? Really? And what is your OBSESSION with people wetting their pants?? Gaggggggggggggggggg

=============================

I bet Bill is an ammonia sniffer.

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

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Really bill? As bad as prejudice in the 1950s? Really? And what is your OBSESSION with people wetting their pants?? Gaggggggggggggggggg

=============================

I bet Bill is an ammonia sniffer.

 

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eeeeyowwwwwwwwwwwww!!

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


This is true.

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.

***

 

Amen, Red! This topic has been all over these forums.  The amazing inconsistency is this--the theocrats who support government-formulated, government-imposed prayer (i.e. classroom prayer scheduled and directed by public school  authorities) are often the same folks who say government has no business messing with their private and personal lives and that government is best that governs least.  Yet these alleged government minimalists are willing to allow government (yes, the public school system is an arm of government) to tell their children what to pray for, who to pray to, in whose name to pray, and when to pray.  Go figure.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


Hi Red,

 

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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****

Bill, you live in a nation where you and I and other folks with religious beliefs have the greatest freedom to practice our faith of any place on earth. How about listing some of the alleged instances of the persecution you claim to be so rampant and let us examine them here on the forum and see if your complaints will hold water.  Are you up to this challenge or will you continue to generalize vaguely about all that alleged persecution??

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


Hi Red,

 

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

0 - CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c

____________________________________

 

This is probably the worst thing I have ever seen Bill Gray post here in the forums. That is saying a lot!

 

How dare you compare this so-called false Christian persecution to what Black people endured during the 50's and 60's. How many times have Christians been water-hosed in the streets for their beliefs? How many times have you been forced to sit in the back of a theatre, or bus because you are a Christian? How many Christians have been beaten and hanged? When have Christians in the US ever been denied their right to vote or attend the public school or their choice? Please tell me when a Christian has been denied entrance into restaurants, hotels, or forced to drink from another water fountain, just because of their beliefs?

 

You are a horrible man Bill Gray. To make a statement as you did above shows just how out of touch with reality you really are.

 

O No, b50m, this is religious delusion. If you can't see it now, then you never will.

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.

***

 

Amen, Red! This topic has been all over these forums.  The amazing inconsistency is this--the theocrats who support government-formulated, government-imposed prayer (i.e. classroom prayer scheduled and directed by public school  authorities) are often the same folks who say government has no business messing with their private and personal lives and that government is best that governs least.  Yet these alleged government minimalists are willing to allow government (yes, the public school system is an arm of government) to tell their children what to pray for, who to pray to, in whose name to pray, and when to pray.  Go figure.


I would agree with you on that.  It doesn't make sense and no one can have it both ways.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

 

O No, b50m, this is religious delusion. If you can't see it now, then you never will.

Dark, I have argued with Bill quite a bit on his fundamentalism. So has ONO. I put up a Militant Fundamentalist thread one time that gave him fits.

I don't agree with him now and I usually never agree with him. Bill is someone who would want a theocracy.

I do not.

I'm not a fundamentalist either. But I wonder if people point out to you when some atheist says something most people would call outrageous, that it is ATHEIST delusion. No? You mean you're NOT responsible for anything another atheist says? You mean, you are all INDIVIDUALS??!!

 

But it seems you think Christians are not.

I will grant that every group most likely gets picked on one way or another.  But considering the biases against any religious group except Christians and against atheists and agnostics it is confusing to me to see Christians in this country as the persecuted group.  

 

Is there any possibility of someone who is open about being agnostic, an atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, any eastern religion, or even Catholic or Mormon being elected president of the USA now?  Or really with the exception of one Catholic ever much?  Why is that?  Why is Mitt's religion such a big deal to Christians?  Why is it that the laws were ignored (still are often) that said there was to be no open prayer in school?  Who is really being persecuted against in this country if you really think about it, and who is doing the persecution?  Who raises a ruckus about candidates not being strictly religious enough to hold office?  The whole system is skewed toward Christianity.  

 

Of all the places in the US I have lived (most didn't care that much what you were if you lived the law and didn't cause trouble) the idea that Christians are the persecuted group is laughable.  Kids don't get teased at school for being Christian unless they make a deal of it and try to preach to everyone and maybe not then.  People ask your church before they ask your name here and it seriously matters what your answer is.  Have you heard of any Christian church in the country being harassed and torched or forbidden to build in a town? 

 

I have heard of other ones being picketed and refused or harassed, though, by the Christians usually.  I see religious material in the newspaper, on the news, I see people who refuse to be friends or let their kids play with kids who aren't Christian, too.  I'm not saying there is no persecution at all anywhere, but anyone who believes that it is really accepted to be anything but Christian in this area especially doesn't get out much.  And just to clarify, I said this back when I was Catholic, when I went to a couple of other Christian churches, and when I saw kids getting picked on for not going to the "right" church.

 

Be honest and tell me that if I were a fantastically skilled surgeon with excellent credentials in a specialty this area needed and I wasn't aware I couldn't say I am an atheist and so I did (you know, when they asked me illegally as they would), and someone came along who was a decent one but not the same caliber but went to a Christian church, who do you think would get the job in this area.  

 

Sorry, but not getting to yell prayers over a loudspeaker at a public school gathering isn't persecution.  It's fair and reasonable...oh, and the law.

Originally Posted by O No!:

I'm not a fundamentalist either. But I wonder if people point out to you when some atheist says something most people would call outrageous, that it is ATHEIST delusion. No? You mean you're NOT responsible for anything another atheist says? You mean, you are all INDIVIDUALS??!!

 

But it seems you think Christians are not.


Yes, actually on this forum all atheists are usually lumped together as "atheist" or "the atheists" , and it is often followed but comments about them.  It goes both ways.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

You are completely bonkers and delusional for your own individual reasons O No. I would never try and take that individuality away from you.

 

Yours has nothing what so ever to do with your religion.

 

Of course I am only joking....

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Well, I AM a musician, and you know what they say about musicians. Bonkers? Definitely! Delusional? No, I think that's your forte.

 

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by O No!:

I'm not a fundamentalist either. But I wonder if people point out to you when some atheist says something most people would call outrageous, that it is ATHEIST delusion. No? You mean you're NOT responsible for anything another atheist says? You mean, you are all INDIVIDUALS??!!

 

But it seems you think Christians are not.


Yes, actually on this forum all atheists are usually lumped together as "atheist" or "the atheists" , and it is often followed but comments about them.  It goes both ways.

___________________________________________________________________________

Not me. Some of my best friends, both on the forum and in real life, are atheists. I think you will notice that when I say "the atheists", it is when I am speaking of something general, such as "The atheists may not believe in God, but God believes in them." But when I am talking about something specific like being called stupid for believing in God, I will say SOME atheists. After all, my sweet friend Bluetick never said an unkind word to anyone because of their faith. I would NEVER lump him in with the likes of SOME of the atheists on this forum.

 

Originally Posted by b50m:

 

 

And the "persecution" of Christians is sooo not the same as that of blacks.  You obviously aren't black or you would know that.  That is an amazing assertion.

 

 

 

 

I hope that was to Bill, as he is the one who said that.


Oh yes...I think he was the only one that said it.  I miss posts sometimes when things get fast, but yes, it was to him.

Originally Posted by frog:

I will grant that every group most likely gets picked on one way or another.  But considering the biases against any religious group except Christians and against atheists and agnostics it is confusing to me to see Christians in this country as the persecuted group.  

 

Is there any possibility of someone who is open about being agnostic, an atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, any eastern religion, or even Catholic or Mormon being elected president of the USA now?  Or really with the exception of one Catholic ever much?  Why is that?  Why is Mitt's religion such a big deal to Christians?  Why is it that the laws were ignored (still are often) that said there was to be no open prayer in school?  Who is really being persecuted against in this country if you really think about it, and who is doing the persecution?  Who raises a ruckus about candidates not being strictly religious enough to hold office?  The whole system is skewed toward Christianity.  

 

Of all the places in the US I have lived (most didn't care that much what you were if you lived the law and didn't cause trouble) the idea that Christians are the persecuted group is laughable.  Kids don't get teased at school for being Christian unless they make a deal of it and try to preach to everyone and maybe not then.  People ask your church before they ask your name here and it seriously matters what your answer is.  Have you heard of any Christian church in the country being harassed and torched or forbidden to build in a town? 

 

I have heard of other ones being picketed and refused or harassed, though, by the Christians usually.  I see religious material in the newspaper, on the news, I see people who refuse to be friends or let their kids play with kids who aren't Christian, too.  I'm not saying there is no persecution at all anywhere, but anyone who believes that it is really accepted to be anything but Christian in this area especially doesn't get out much.  And just to clarify, I said this back when I was Catholic, when I went to a couple of other Christian churches, and when I saw kids getting picked on for not going to the "right" church.

 

Be honest and tell me that if I were a fantastically skilled surgeon with excellent credentials in a specialty this area needed and I wasn't aware I couldn't say I am an atheist and so I did (you know, when they asked me illegally as they would), and someone came along who was a decent one but not the same caliber but went to a Christian church, who do you think would get the job in this area.  

 

Sorry, but not getting to yell prayers over a loudspeaker at a public school gathering isn't persecution.  It's fair and reasonable...oh, and the law.

============================================================================

 

Good post, frog.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

d.Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

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You've had the fire hoses turned on you and dogs let loose to attack you because you wanted prayer in schools or before a football game?  

Bill is even more off-base than that.  Let's face it, persecution of blacks in this country goes back to the first slave brought here.  Water hoses and dogs?  Try torture, lynching, and outright murder (and I'm still talking about the 50s and 60s).

 

How about it, Bill.  Any of these happen to you?

Originally Posted by Glass Onion:

You've had the fire hoses turned on you and dogs let loose to attack you because you wanted prayer in schools or before a football game?  

_________________________________

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Bill is even more off-base than that.  Let's face it, persecution of blacks in this country goes back to the first slave brought here.  Water hoses and dogs?  Try torture, lynching, and outright murder (and I'm still talking about the 50s and 60s).

How about it, Bill.  Any of these happen to you?

______________________________

Good points from both of you, & very true.

Bill will probably make a joke from what you said but your post makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

How ds? By stopping them from praying at ballgames? Oh wait-nevermind.

Where's Mr. Green's 'outrage' over all of the government intrusion into our lives? WHAT HARM....to ANYone...Green included...did Mo Brooks do?


What are you talking about?

dogsoldier, do you personally know Mr. Green? If not why do you think he would only be concerned with this issue?

 

What the local county school system has been doing is illegal. He pointed this out as a concerned citizen. Standing up for the rights of ALL Americans is very patriotic and admirable.

 

I have been reading post made by local Christians on Facebook, and the TD. I am shocked at the level of ignorance people have concerning our Constitution and our laws. They are now "threatening" to pray out loud from the stands. I find this hilarious. For some reason they think they will be fighting against Mr. Green and the Constitution by doing this. I hope they do it. I think it would be awesome! Maybe then they will understand that no one is trying to take their God away or prevent them from praying. The only thing they can't do is lead a prayer to Jesus Christ (or any other god) over the PA system. We do not live in a theocracy and I for one want to keep it that way.

 

I read one post where they were "brainstorming" on ways to combat this evil thing by meeting across the street and praying and then having the local police to stop traffic while they crossed back and forth 72 hwy.......Now that makes sense. LOL

 

Mr. Green is receiving threats and hate filled mail. I have every confidence that he will be able to handle the heat, but it is simply ridiculous that these Christians have taken it to this kind of level. Most of them say that Mr. Green and anyone else that does not believe as they do can just stay home, or plug their ears. Why should he or anyone else have to do that? Do the beliefs of Christians trump the rights of American citizens? No, and hopefully it never will.

I have said it before and will say it again, I'm all for a Christian prayer being led before events but if it's a school sanctioned event and if the law says that we have to be fair to all belief systems then I would rather give up the Christian prayer over the PA than to have to have to give a turn at the mic to a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc.

I personally like the way it was handled in Arab with how the Christian community reacted & prevailed. If Lauderdale County School's leadership does not think that they can successfully defend the current practice in court then I think offering a moment of reflection would be an appropriate measure until this whole thing blows over. If a moment of reflection before school sponsored events is all we get then I would hope that the Lauderdale County Christian community would continuously show up at the events to pray during that time.

As for the whole going across the street thing then I say do not let God be run out of the stadium and across the street, as for stopping traffic while you cross the road, that’s just crazy & spiteful and doing such a thing is not exactly going to win any converts.

With the above said, I do prefer that God be acknowledged in all that we do but at the same time the practice of a prayer over the PA before games can come back to bite us because if prayer can always be led at public schools at the discretion of staff then there is the danger of non Christian staff practicing their religion with our children and us not being able to do anything about it so we should be careful of the particulars of exactly what we are fighting/arguing for and realize that the official outcome will be fair to all religions.

 that’s just crazy & spiteful and

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Par for the course for the radical religious. They don't think the law applies to them. One way to handle it I guess is to start inviting all the other religions to attend and lead their prayers.

I don't understand what would be accomplished by people across the street and blocking traffic.  No one said anything about God not being allowed in the stadium.  If God is omnipotent he can't be forced out of anywhere, and that also means he can hear thoughts and quiet prayers.  So what is the difference between a moment of silence that gives time for everyone to pray or think or do whatever quiet they wish, and having prayers yelled over loudspeakers if he can hear everyone and knows what is in everyone's heart?  I'm being sincere here...the only difference I see is that if there is yelling everyone there has to hear it as well whether they want to or not.  I didn't understand it when I was in school from  young childhood and I still don't.

 

If I give my spouse a glance or smile he knows what I'm saying without verbal exchange....why wouldn't God hear the prayers as well without the yelling in stadiums since he's been around forever and knows us all so intimately?  Didn't Jesus say he liked things understated and private without show and fanfare anyway?  I just don't understand that part besides people trying to get everyone else to pray with them?

 

If we had prayer time out loud for every other group  it would be a big prayer meeting.  How is that playing a game?  A moment of silence gives everyone a chance to pray if desired.

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This from a man that has NO problem at all discriminating against others and wanting to deny them their rights. He posts BS like this right along with his threads calling other denominations "cults" and his ****** posts against homosexuals or anyone that doesn't believe or believe like him. This has been pointed out to him before, but every time he does it I'm going to point it out to him again. Come on bill, give us just ONE, just ONE example of how christians are treated like the blacks were in the 50s, 60s. Oh and btw bill, just who was treating them like that? Atheists?  So come on bill, give us a few examples. You want YOUR right to pray at ballgames or anywhere else, you just don't want others to have that same right. But you don't want a theocracy? Pftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

I was asked about this subject on another forum & answered.  I had avoided this thread & suddenly felt a little guilty about that.  I should be willing to voice my opinion regardless of likely animosity.  So, as I said on another forum...

 

To be honest, this is always a difficult one for me. I wouldn't like it if some other religion prayed, chanted, sang (whatever they might do) to their god before my kids' or grandkid's ballgames. However, since I am a believer, I also know how helpful prayer is before doing anything. It's a conundrum for the thinking Christian. We understand his complaint, the quite valid place from which it comes, but also understand that inviting God in is always better than showing him the door.

 

I asked my son his opinion.  He said nothing can stop an individual from praying and regardless of the decision to be made, those that want to pray can still pray and those who do not, will not.  I agree.  When it's all said and done, It may be much ado about nothing.

Thoughtful response, Joy, and I understand what you mean

 

I wouldn't personally feel I was showing God the door by not praying out loud since I would still pray to myself if I wanted, and I would think that all the individual prayers would resonate together.  I agree putting out some positive energy before an event...praying, energy, good thoughts, getting focused...isn't a bad idea at all.  It's just how it is done that is the issue, and I think your son is very wise

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.

Originally Posted by frog:

A moment of silence gives everyone a chance to pray if desired.

True.  It would allow agreement in prayer by believers who wish to participate.  Since those who do not want to pray cannot hear the prayer, it leaves no room for complaint...excepting those who complain because they enjoy it so much.

Originally Posted by frog:

Thoughtful response, Joy, and I understand what you mean

 

I wouldn't personally feel I was showing God the door by not praying out loud since I would still pray to myself if I wanted, and I would think that all the individual prayers would resonate together.  I agree putting out some positive energy before an event...praying, energy, good thoughts, getting focused...isn't a bad idea at all.  It's just how it is done that is the issue, and I think your son is very wise


Thanks, frog.  I think so, too, but I am a wee bit biased.  

 

That's a good point regarding how to use the moment of silence.  Those not praying can use the moment of silence in a positive way as well.

Problem is some christians claim everything is an attack. If someone starts "preaching or witnessing" to me and I tell them I don't believe and don't want to hear it, they call it an attack against their god. To me they're the "attackers" so to speak, when they start with me or start handing out their little leaflets, or knock on my door wanting contributions for religious organizations or events.

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.

I never approach anyone and say to them "are you saved from religion? Can I tell you all about atheism"?  I don't go door to door soliciting funds for atheist programs or causes. If by open minded you mean I should have to stand and listen to unsolicited  "witnessing or mini-sermons" , then stand still for the "insults" some like to give when you tell them you don't believe, then I'd say no, my mind isn't open to that.

I don't go door to door either, Best.  Just as all Christians are not like me, not all Atheists are like you.  The obnoxious exist in all groups.  The obnoxious in your group deserve to be acknowledged every bit as the obnoxious in mine...haha. 

 

One person insisting on complete innocence or insisting on complete guilt on behalf of their group or an 'opposing' group' is just not true.  Unless it's a really really small group, and perhaps not even then, one person cannot speak on behalf of a group because we are all individuals with our own set of beliefs, talents, opinions, backgrounds, circumstances, etc. 

 

We cannot know the mind of another individual just because we have one thing in common.  Conversely, we cannot know the mind of another just because we are opposites in some areas of our lives. 

 

We also do not deserve to be thrown together in one pot simply because we have something in common. You and I are both women...does that mean I know your mind?...no, of course not...and it doesn't make me responsible for your actions either.  I'm not saying that is what you are doing...just making the observation.

BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.


 

LOL...I'm "chatted up" by Atheists every time I come here.  If they are not trying to "convert", might need to see a therapist about that obsession with Christianity issue...being facetious here of course, but there is some truth to that.

 

So, if I'm understanding you, you are comfortable with Christians and Atheists voicing their beliefs in a public forum...just not on your doorstep.  I can agree with that.

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposed to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Bill

The God I serve does not need the state force feeding prayer to touch hearts and lives. This is demonstrated in the lives of his people. I am sorry that you think prayers repeated over a loudspeaker at a ball game means so much. Really you do put God in a box.

 

AMEN!

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF


 

Sounds almost like a baited question but what the heck, I'll bite. The reason that the others are distinct from Christianity is because there is only one God and his son is Jesus so that means Christians are right and all the others are just full of crap. Excuse me for being blunt but I prefer to keep it short and simple when I can.

As can likely be told from what I said in other posts, I have mixed feelings about prayer over the PA, I do like to see a Christian prayer being lead over the PA but at the same time I do realize that there are potential side effects which would be detrimental to Christianity so I am personally OK with a moment of reflection or whatever you want to call it where people can either pray by themselves silently, out loud, or however they wish OR that groups can participate in prayers that are lead by others in the audience and of course if someone does not want to participate then they don’t have to.

As for young Mr. Green, it's obvious that he has some need for attention and that his "in your face" atheism is the path he has chosen to get attention and at that, he was successful so I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes as he has likely impressed some of his atheist friends and ticked off most of the rest of the county.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Joy,

 

At the risk of chatting you up , YES it's illegal for a public school to sponsor such prayers.  It has been ruled a violation of the First Amendment.  That is why Lauderdale Co. doesn't just tell the FFRF to go away.

 

DF


You ole chatterer, you.

 

Sorry, I was asking for the law which allowed them to rule that way.  I was hoping someone had it handy.  I may or may not agree with their ruling or it may not apply to this case, not that it would make a difference to anyone but myself...haha...I don't see how the First Amendment applies to prayer at a high school football game?

 

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with Christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposted to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.


Believers are highly interested in Christianity because we are Christians.  Do what everywhere and to everyone?

 

I think we agree on forum vs. front porch; that obviously pains you.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.

Originally Posted by _Joy_:

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.


You are right in this.  It isn't what "sides" people are on that determines the progress or outcome of a  discussion or negotiation.  I would say that if negotiators went into discussions backed by governments who sent them to be seriously bent on being fair and working for compromise and the interests of all concerned, we wouldn't have many wars, and the same goes for the Religion Forum.

Pains me? So what if christianity is important to you, it still doesn't explain the obsession and wanting it in every area of peoples lives, business and politics.  If people want atheists to keep quiet about atheism then they should keep quiet about their christianity.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

First of all please note that I said "HISTORY AS A WHOLE" not today's Christian  vs African Americans in the 60's and before. Otherwise you are right in that this should not be a contest of who's more discriminated against, its a p*s***g contest and I should not have responded to all of those who made light of the discrimination that Christians face both now and throughout history. 

What about his past fred? And what about the "other sides past"? And it's your opinion only that the others are wrong. I guess it must feel awful for christians to "give up"  what they mistakenly think is their "right" because they're so afraid they'd have to allow others to have the same rights.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.


So you can pray and acknowledge anyone you want and no one cares if you do or is trying to stop you.  Just please do your thing off the PA or to yourself just as I will not yell how I feel about the universe over the PA system.  Sure...do that...to yourself..and there will be no problem at all.

 

So if you want to feel they are wrong cool, but others do get to have opinions and have a say in things as well however we might happen to feel about something.

I think as long as it was christians burning, hanging, torturing other christians it was OK and not spoken of by the christian masses. Like I ask bill, who was doing all that discriminating against blacks? Had to be a few million christians involved. But like anything else, it's fine when they do it but they want to cry when they think they're being mistreated. And look at what they consider persecution.

Why the contest for which group suffers discrimination and attack most often?  Crimes of prejudice are crimes, regardless of the victim.

 

Just as an aside, it is too bad that people who fancy themselves martyrs cannot speak with those who actually are martyrs.  A first hand account of such a terrifying experience might just snuff out that fancy for good.  You can, however, hear first hand account of crimes of prejudice.  If you have not suffered such a crime, pretending you have is insulting and dishonoring to those who have.  Someone disagreeing with you is not a a crime of prejudice.  JMHO

So what I'm reading from some is that it's OK for an atheist to assert their right to not have an official prayer at taxpayer funded events but that it's not OK for Christians to assert their right to speak out loud when praying. What I am hearing is a few people telling me that Christians need to go to the corner and be quite but that is simply not going to happen.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Pains me? So what if christianity is important to you, it still doesn't explain the obsession and wanting it in every area of peoples lives, business and politics.  If people want atheists to keep quiet about atheism then they should keep quiet about their christianity.


I do not want you to keep quiet about Atheism.  I agree that if someone wants you to be quiet, the fair thing would be for them to also remain quiet.

 

I was kidding about the pains you thing.  You'd think I'd know by now who I can kid around with and who I cannot.  I mean that you keep arguing a point we've already agreed on.

 

Please explain how Christians want it (and what is 'it'?) in every area of peoples' lives, business and politics.  If you mean simply being who we are, voicing our opinions, using legal means to defend what we feel is right for America, voting for whoever we feel is the best candidate for office, promoting said candidate, etc., there's no way to change that, and to do so seems criminal.

Originally Posted by BFred07:

So what I'm reading from some is that it's OK for an atheist to assert their right to not have an official prayer at taxpayer funded events but that it's not OK for Christians to assert their right to speak out loud when praying. What I am hearing is a few people telling me that Christians need to go to the corner and be quite but that is simply not going to happen.


I didn't see that anywhere here.  Who said that?  What you are hearing and what others are saying isn't the same thing.

 

The problem is that saying prayers over the loudspeaker is cool for one group, but the rest of the group there might not want to hear them.  So all people are saying is you say your prayers if you like and anyone else can do whatever she likes...but not over the loudspeaker and not in a disruptive way that infringes on others' rights.  No one said you couldn't pray.  

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by _Joy_:

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.


You are right in this.  It isn't what "sides" people are on that determines the progress or outcome of a  discussion or negotiation.  I would say that if negotiators went into discussions backed by governments who sent them to be seriously bent on being fair and working for compromise and the interests of all concerned, we wouldn't have many wars, and the same goes for the Religion Forum.


I could not agree more, frog.

I was kidding about the pains you thing.  You'd think I'd know by now who I can kid around with and who I cannot.  I mean that you keep arguing a point we've already agreed on.

 

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I keep arguing the point we've agreed on? Maybe you should go back through the posts. Seems it's you that can't let it go. Or was I supposed to say, "oh you're so right, atheists should leave the forum"? I can kid around IF the "joke" makes sense. If it pains you was the joke? hmmmmmmmm How about this-nuff said.

Chill out, Best.  We agree that we are comfortable with Atheists and Christians voicing their beliefs in a public forum, just not on our front porch. 

 

One more time now...I'm not trying to silence anyone, have no reason to do that.  That's another thing we agree on...as I said, if someone wants you to be silent, the fair thing is to remain silent yourself.  I  have no reason to want Atheists to leave this forum either - have no idea why you would think that.

America is sliding down a slippery slope from which it may not recover, all because of liberalism, anti-Christian court rulings and minority (pick one)-held beliefs becoming the norm, rather than the rule. Collectively, America has asked....no, BEGGED....for it for the past 40 years. She may very well choke on it.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by BFred07:

So what I'm reading from some is that it's OK for an atheist to assert their right to not have an official prayer at taxpayer funded events but that it's not OK for Christians to assert their right to speak out loud when praying. What I am hearing is a few people telling me that Christians need to go to the corner and be quite but that is simply not going to happen.


I didn't see that anywhere here.  Who said that?  What you are hearing and what others are saying isn't the same thing.

 

The problem is that saying prayers over the loudspeaker is cool for one group, but the rest of the group there might not want to hear them.  So all people are saying is you say your prayers if you like and anyone else can do whatever she likes...but not over the loudspeaker and not in a disruptive way that infringes on others' rights.  No one said you couldn't pray.  

People have said that we can pray silently to ourselves which is the same thing, if a group wants to say a prayer out loud then that is still their right. The law might very well be that the PA belonging to the school cannot be used however that does not stop Christians in the crowd from praying or having a prayer led, it can still be out loud and the 1st amendment protects our right to do so. 

The only thing that I saw in this story is that we might have to stop using the public PA, nothing else changes.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

America is sliding down a slippery slope from which it may not recover, all because of liberalism, anti-Christian court rulings and minority (pick one)-held beliefs becoming the norm, rather than the rule. Collectively, America has asked....no, BEGGED....for it for the past 40 years. She may very well choke on it.


After all, this is your America and not anyone else's unless they agree with you completely.  So I guess it is only fair that you should get to decide personally what everyone else in your whole country gets to do.

 

But if you could just get rid of all those pesky "others" you would get your country back.  So if we get rid everyone but white Christian males America will be safe?  Hmm...when you reread your post do you see the racism an bigotry in it, or do you honestly believe what you posted and think it is Christian?  

Dog, go into your thoughts on that a bit deeper. Tell us who is to "blame" for all those laws and rulings. Who has had control of this country for all these years dog?  Do atheists control the country? Do the illegals control the county? Yet? Now who allowed/brought in all the illegals dog? Who's crying over the attempt to deport the illegals and who's giving them sanctuary and fighting the government to keep them here and support them? Is it anti-christians or the churches? Tell us in your own words who brought us to where we are. There is plenty of blame to go around. Giving people basic human rights is never bad no matter who "gives" them to people, but on the flip side, giving the country over to foreign interests and illegals isn't good for the country. So seriously, tell us how we got to where we are and how allowing the church to run the government would help us.

Funny, this.

 

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

  Oh-Then go on to explain about how you believe in supernatural beings......

That oughtta do it.  Way to prove you're not a moron. 

 

 

I'm with Jeremy on this issue.  If I'm sitting at a public event sanctioned by a city or school-I don't wanna be forced to participate (which is exactly what you're doing if you broadcast to an audience) in a religious ritual.  If I have to sit through it-I'm included in it whether I wanna be or not.

 

I don't go into a church and interrupt your praying with my cussing-I expect you not to interrupt my cussing with your praying outside the church.

  Do like they do in Arab. Take your offered moment of reflection and pray then. Pray out loud, I don't care....Just don't force me to be a part of it because you feel you need an amplifier to shout it to the mountaintops.  If I hadda buy a ticket-I wanna see a game, not go to church.

 

Not everybody on those mountaintops believes like you...and they get just as bent outta shape as you do when you try to force-feed your belief to them.

 

Christians have gotten a free pass for a long time when it comes to stuff like this. They're not surrounded by just other christians anymore. It's about time, I think, that they began to realize that.  Welcome to the 00s.  People have evolved past ghosties and fairies by now.

 

Well.........Some of us have.

 

 

 

From RP ...

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

 

 

RP, I read the same article (really not sure you read it, but maybe scanned it?) and I thought the point was simply he wasn't really employed. And I've heard he lies about the MBA too. Don't know or don't really care, but if he lies about one thing which he did on his employer being Google of all companies, wouldn't he lie about something else.? Maybe not since maybe he wanted to impress girls or something. I have a neighbor with an MBA and she works two jobs. I barely have a BS and have a great job, for me, but it sure doesn't impress people as far as job title.. I see this guy as someone who wants to impress, maybe because of his past problems?

Originally Posted by Infomercial:

From RP ...

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

 

 

RP, I read the same article (really not sure you read it, but maybe scanned it?) and I thought the point was simply he wasn't really employed. And I've heard he lies about the MBA too. Don't know or don't really care, but if he lies about one thing which he did on his employer being Google of all companies, wouldn't he lie about something else.? Maybe not since maybe he wanted to impress girls or something. I have a neighbor with an MBA and she works two jobs. I barely have a BS and have a great job, for me, but it sure doesn't impress people as far as job title.. I see this guy as someone who wants to impress, maybe because of his past problems?

___________________________________

 

Mr. Green does work as a Search Engine Evaluator for Google. It is a legitimate job and I wish I had it.

 

It is amazing to me that Shoalanda and others have decided to attack Mr. Green personally and drag up things that have absolutely nothing to do with the school prayer issue. I see this as a way to try and draw attention away from the fact that the school system is breaking the law.

 

Seems that you and Shoalanda don't care much for the truth. You would rather just believe a lie, right? I did not know you had to have a spotless history to be able to point out illegal activity in our government. He has every right as an American citizen to file a complaint.

 

Those that are using this as their argument against the law must know they don't have a leg to stand on legally..

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What did he lie about concerning the prayer before the ballgame? And who is shoalander? Is she/he employed?

_____________________________

 

Here ya go Best..

 

http://shoalandaspeaks.blogspo...-right-or-wrong.html

 

Shoalanda speaks is basically a local gossip rag. Some people in the community enjoy reading the "Enquirer" like blogs that are found there. Its not news by any stretch of the imagination. Just some busy body that likes to gossip and has made a (small) name for themselves by trying to ruin peoples lives and name in the area.

 

I knew she or he-figured it was she, had a little blog, but I guess I meant who the heck are they anyway and do they have a real job. I saw the comment she made on the story page. That's why I ask if she was going to "investigate" all the other people involved too.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Infomercial:

From RP ...

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

 

 

RP, I read the same article (really not sure you read it, but maybe scanned it?) and I thought the point was simply he wasn't really employed. And I've heard he lies about the MBA too. Don't know or don't really care, but if he lies about one thing which he did on his employer being Google of all companies, wouldn't he lie about something else.? Maybe not since maybe he wanted to impress girls or something. I have a neighbor with an MBA and she works two jobs. I barely have a BS and have a great job, for me, but it sure doesn't impress people as far as job title.. I see this guy as someone who wants to impress, maybe because of his past problems?

___________________________________

 

Mr. Green does work as a Search Engine Evaluator for Google. It is a legitimate job and I wish I had it.

 

It is amazing to me that Shoalanda and others have decided to attack Mr. Green personally and drag up things that have absolutely nothing to do with the school prayer issue. I see this as a way to try and draw attention away from the fact that the school system is breaking the law.

 

Seems that you and Shoalanda don't care much for the truth. You would rather just believe a lie, right? I did not know you had to have a spotless history to be able to point out illegal activity in our government. He has every right as an American citizen to file a complaint.

 

Those that are using this as their argument against the law must know they don't have a leg to stand on legally..

 

 

Dark, I'm disappointed in you. Learn to Google. I did. I don't take anything Shoalanda or anyone else says for truth until I do that or other research. She/He is right. Google DOES NOT HIRE SEARCH ENGINE EVALUATORS. At least one or two companies do hire these work at home people. I'll see if I can find it. So what else has Green lied about. Makes ya wonder.

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