Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

The times, they are a-changin'....

 

 

 

And NOT for 'the better'........  And folks wonder why America is headed down the toilet. Idiots.

Look in the mirror, idiot.

I would, but I'm afraid you'd be standing behind me. Are you stalking me, jimbo?

Your disgusting, racist, Socialist, Fascist avatar is hard to miss and it is usually accompanied by an idiotic remark.


I challenge you to meet me for a cup of coffee to discuss our varying viewpoints. You pick the place. You'll find that I am nothing like you portary me to be. The ball is in your court.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

The times, they are a-changin'....

 

 

 

And NOT for 'the better'........  And folks wonder why America is headed down the toilet. Idiots.

Look in the mirror, idiot.

I would, but I'm afraid you'd be standing behind me. Are you stalking me, jimbo?

Your disgusting, racist, Socialist, Fascist avatar is hard to miss and it is usually accompanied by an idiotic remark.


I challenge you to meet me for a cup of coffee to discuss our varying viewpoints. You pick the place. You'll find that I am nothing like you portary me to be. The ball is in your court.

I "portary" you to be just what you have admitted to being. I have been around racist rednecks all my life. Why would I want to spend any time with one as offensive as you? Don't be ridiculous.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

Are you AFRAID that you will be proven wrong? Or are you just plain AFRAID?

I am not afraid. I am offended. I have heard enough of your misguided nonsense. I have know plenty of people like you and I am not interested in being around them.

I heard or read somewhere Green was going to start giving away used coats and canned food over this praying at brooks. It might have been on this thread. I was just wondering where his distribution center would be located. Jhimah do you know?

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

Are you AFRAID that you will be proven wrong? Or are you just plain AFRAID?

I am not afraid. I am offended. I have heard enough of your misguided nonsense. I have know plenty of people like you and I am not interested in being around them.


Yep. You're afraid to come out from behind your keyboard.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by BFred07:

So I'm once again seeing the debate of whether or not this is a Christian nation and of course there's the propaganda that some groups put out that even make the preposterous claim that our founding fathers where mostly non-Chiristian but even if you wish to go with that then I can still throw out the unreversed U.S. Supreme Court case,  Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 437 (1892), which held that “this is a Christian nation.” <<<<-------notice the quotes!

Of course the atheist groups have a boxed response for that too and try to argue against it but there is no doubt that the United States is a Christian nation and was founded upon Christian principles. So anyway, if you want to argue against a person's right to pray then claiming that we are not a Christian nation is not a good point to try and base your argument on. 

More crap from another crap-meister. Lies and more lies.

Where are the lies? Are you saying that the U.S> Supreme Court lied?

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

Are you AFRAID that you will be proven wrong? Or are you just plain AFRAID?

I am not afraid. I am offended. I have heard enough of your misguided nonsense. I have know plenty of people like you and I am not interested in being around them.


Yep. You're afraid to come out from behind your keyboard.

Yes, you are correct. I fear your 150 year old obsession with a lost cause. It appears that you are the one who is afraid of admitting the truth. It is you who are hiding behind an offensive, disgraced, loser flag. I have no need to associate someone who is as out of touch with reality as you.

Originally Posted by lexum:

It wont stop the praying. You just hide and watch. LOL

People will be praying with bull horns just off the school property.

I don't know why the people would go off the school property to pray, no one is denying that it's perfectly legal to pray out loud on school property, you just can't use the school's PA. Hopefully the community will show up and pray but I think bullhorns would be a bit obnoxious. 

Yes, all the good christians should just keep it up until they get the schools fined to the hilt OR other groups decide if it's OK for one than it is fine for all. Good luck with that two hour long "prayer meeting" before sporting events. Way to show the young kids that if you don't like a law all you have to do is refuse to obey it. But with young people being young people don't get upset when they start breaking other laws following the wonderful example put forth by the parents. And the next time I go shopping I'm going to park in one of those empty handicapped spaces and tell them the christians said it was OK.

 

lol

Can you get FFRF to stop lying and saying it's a charity?

 

 

 

FFRF is a non-profit, educational organization. All dues and donations are deductible for income-tax purposes.

 


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BBB Wise Giving Report issued June 2011
BBB Wise Giving Report expires May 2012

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Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Yes, all the good christians should just keep it up until they get the schools fined to the hilt OR other groups decide if it's OK for one than it is fine for all. Good luck with that two hour long "prayer meeting" before sporting events. Way to show the young kids that if you don't like a law all you have to do is refuse to obey it. But with young people being young people don't get upset when they start breaking other laws following the wonderful example put forth by the parents. And the next time I go shopping I'm going to park in one of those empty handicapped spaces and tell them the christians said it was OK.

If the community decided to have a two hour long prayer meeting before a game, what are you thinking would be illegal about it? There is no law that would prevent such a thing but there are laws that protect their right to do it if they want. Anyway, who said anything about two hours? At my Church, if the preacher goes past 15 minutes then someone would clear their throat and point to their watch for a hint!

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

And oh yes, don't forget to notify the government and tell them the churches are ready to start paying their share of taxes.

So you are suggesting that non-profit organizations such as Churches, Red Cross, St. Jude, March of Dimes, etc should start paying taxes from the donations they receive?

If the community decided to have a two hour long prayer meeting before a game, what are you thinking would be illegal about it? There is no law that would prevent such a thing but there are laws that protect their right to do it if they want. Anyway, who said anything about two hours? At my Church, if the preacher goes past 15 minutes then someone would clear their throat and point to their watch for a hint!

 

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Not talking about your church. I said all the other groups which will ask to pray, chant, sing, whatever and start demanding equal time.

Originally Posted by lexum:

That means Jeremy Green will inventory all the tonnes of coats he takes in and pay tax on them?

Jimmih did you count on that when you signed up?

========================

i finally found it DA was the dude that broke the news.

here is his quote:

"

"The Christians that have formed a facebook group called "Brooks Lions will Pray" They are the ones that have been the most vocal about the issue and are selling t-shirts to fund their cause to keep breaking the law and have prayer at the football games.

 

They have all decided to band together, regardless of denomination, and work for a cause. Which would be awesome if they were actually using their power and money for something worthwhile like feeding the hungry in our area or putting coats on the backs of children this winter. That is what Mr. Green is doing right now. He has been having a food and coat drive for a couple of months now. Instead they plan on using the money they raise to pay for a lawyer."

quote:    Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:
Not talking about your church.  I said all the other groups which will ask to pray, chant, sing, whatever and start demanding equal time. 

Hi Jennifer,

 

If I go to a Chinese restaurant -- I should expect to be served Chinese food.   If one goes to an event in Christian America -- one should not be offended by a Christian prayer.  America was not founded as a Muslim nation, nor a Hare Krishna nation, nor an atheist nation.   No, it was founded as a Christian nation -- and we have Christian prayers.  

 

If you want Muslim prayers, there is a flight leaving soon for Iran.   If you want Hare Krishna prayers, there is a flight leaving soon for India.   If you want atheist prayers, there is a plane leaving soon for Russia.

 

Remember the old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do!" -- and when in Christian America, etc.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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If I go to a Chinese restaurant -- I should expect to be served Chinese food.   If one goes to an event in Christian America -- one should not be offended by a Christian prayer.  America was not founded as a Muslim nation, nor a Hare Krishna nation, nor an atheist nation.   No, it was founded as a Christian nation -- and we have Christian prayers. 

 

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No it wasn't founded as a christian nation. And knowing you you'd demand something other than chinese food and when you didn't get it you'd cry discrimination and prejudice and write letters to the restaurant's head office. Because just as in this case you think you should have your way about everything.

You people that think that it is your right to force a prayer on people in a captive audience situation like a ballgame, are the same type people that supported the ****s in Germany in attacking Jews.  You think that because you believe something everyone should believe it and you have no problem participating in a mob. 

 

There is no difference in having a prayer at a ballgame and me holding you down and farting in your face.  You should like the smell of my fart I believe therefor you should smell it.

Originally Posted by EvilGenius:

You people that think that it is your right to force a prayer on people in a captive audience situation like a ballgame, are the same type people that supported the ****s in Germany in attacking Jews.  You think that because you believe something everyone should believe it and you have no problem participating in a mob. 

 

There is no difference in having a prayer at a ballgame and me holding you down and farting in your face.  You should like the smell of my fart I believe therefor you should smell it.

===========================================

Evil hearing and smelling are two separate things do you suggest everyone should be blind?

Originally Posted by lexum:

In such a short time I have determined that Bestworking has a hate for Christian believers.

What is it best? Why all the hate?. What line of work are you in?


I don't hear hate for Christians per se from too many here, actually.  I hear frustration on all sides because the views of all Christian all the time or not any group all the time, but equality all the time and respect by all for all seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum.  But then I don't cares who believes what as long as everyone has the freedom to privacy from others' religious beliefs, and some feel that religion is totally intertwined in everything and everyone should be able to see that.  

 

Those two views are very different for sure...of course there is disagreement, but it doesn't have to be hate if someone disagrees.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:    Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:
Not talking about your church.  I said all the other groups which will ask to pray, chant, sing, whatever and start demanding equal time. 

Hi Jennifer,

 

If I go to a Chinese restaurant -- I should expect to be served Chinese food.   If one goes to an event in Christian America -- one should not be offended by a Christian prayer.  America was not founded as a Muslim nation, nor a Hare Krishna nation, nor an atheist nation.   No, it was founded as a Christian nation -- and we have Christian prayers.  

 

If you want Muslim prayers, there is a flight leaving soon for Iran.   If you want Hare Krishna prayers, there is a flight leaving soon for India.   If you want atheist prayers, there is a plane leaving soon for Russia.

 

Remember the old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do!" -- and when in Christian America, etc.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Actually it isn't a Christian nation, but I can see why that would be important to you to think that.  This country belongs to all its citizens, including all the faiths and groups you mentioned.  So anyone who doesn't want to pray the prayers you do just need to leave the country?  Wow.  This isn't just your country.  I am a citizen the same as I guess you are, and that makes it my country too.  Wow.  

 

And you have the audacity to use that signature after you spew hatred and intolerance at anyone who isn't just like you and call others ignorant.  How sad it must be to be you and live in such denial and with such anger and sense of superiority that you feel if people don't do things your way and go to your church...if they don't pray the exact same prayers you do..that they should just leave because this is your country and no one else's.  If you ever wonder why I don't believe in God, read the post you wrote that I just quoted.  Perhaps more of a reality is that if you want the kind of country you just described you would need to be in a country with an official religion and a nice big thumb to squash non-believers under.  

 

Ugh.

Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius:

You people that think that it is your right to force a prayer on people in a captive audience situation like a ballgame, are the same type people that supported the ****s in Germany in attacking Jews.  You think that because you believe something everyone should believe it and you have no problem participating in a mob. 

 

There is no difference in having a prayer at a ballgame and me holding you down and farting in your face.  You should like the smell of my fart I believe therefor you should smell it.

===========================================

Evil hearing and smelling are two separate things do you suggest everyone should be blind?


You can close your nose...lol.  If we have our fingers in our ears you can have your nose close with your fingers.  Then we will all look pretty silly I think..lol.

Originally Posted by teyates:

Its OK, I think Don Quixote was a "nut job" also.  He went around jousting at windmills.  Something that should have been no threat to him but he was "feeling pressured" I guess.  To each his own, but anyone who thinks that Mr. Green's action is going to suppress or calm Christianity in this region is nothing more than a Don Quixote.  He has a right to his beliefs, and I stand by the fact that he is evidently not to secure in them if he is threatened by a public prayer.

***

 

It is merely opinion, and misguided opinion at that, that Green's initiative is intended or regarded as anything that would "suppress or calm Christianity."  Such an interpretation rests on the theocratic paranoia that characterizes those who believe that the "Christian nation" status of this country validates governmental sanction of sectarian religious exercises within public, governmental venues.

They are wrong on that--dead wrong--but they are so emotionally wedded to this bogus notion that there is no way for reason to separate them from it.

Oh well I guess my not having lived through a period of insecurity I don’t understand the frustration by best working. I just wish she had a sense of humor rather than the jackboot distaste she has for others. I like to pull chains, ,joke around and have fun and not be too serious

Originally Posted by EvilGenius:

You people that think that it is your right to force a prayer on people in a captive audience situation like a ballgame, are the same type people that supported the ****s in Germany in attacking Jews.  You think that because you believe something everyone should believe it and you have no problem participating in a mob. 

 

There is no difference in having a prayer at a ballgame and me holding you down and farting in your face.  You should like the smell of my fart I believe therefor you should smell it.

Well Evil, isn't it a great country that we have where you can express such an absurd opinion without fear of a backlash, I'm just glad that the law doesn't agree with you.

 

I hope to see as many as possible at the game tonight, Central (in Lauderdale County) will be hosting Sheffield. Maybe young Mr. Green will come out to admire his accomplishment. It's my understanding that a pre game prayer will be said although it will not be lead by the school over the PA. Maybe EG will show up and try & f*** in some of those cornfed Central boys faces or attempt to punch one in the face. That would certainly be an interesting sight to see.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by lexum:

It wont stop the praying. You just hide and watch. LOL

People will be praying with bull horns just off the school property.

I don't know why the people would go off the school property to pray, no one is denying that it's perfectly legal to pray out loud on school property, you just can't use the school's PA. Hopefully the community will show up and pray but I think bullhorns would be a bit obnoxious. 

***

 

What is truly obnoxious is the demand by persons of one faith that their sectarian prayers continue to be given privileged access to a public address system within a governmental venue. Let a non-Christian request the same opportunity and see what kind of reaction these Christian theocrats will have!

I understand your misguided belief frog and bfred and I cut you slack because you are obviously uneducated and ignorant about the concepts of the constitution and the founding of this country.   Many fled Europe for the new world to escape what you people are doing, trying to force your prayer on others by hiding in a mob of people.  You would be right in the middle of a lynch mob but you would never defend possibly an innocent man from being hung.  It is sad to see.  

 

It baffles me that you people don't understand that is very proper for you to pray, but it is not proper but you to bluster about loudly shouting your prayer and someone else.  Your rights extend only to where they interfere with the next persons right.  And it is not your right to gather a  mob of the unfortunate ignorant and uneducated like yourself to force others to give up their rights. 

 

That's what our men are in Afghanistan fighting against is people like you.  You pridefully shouting your prayer like a peacock are no better than t he Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.

Originally Posted by EvilGenius:
I understand your misguided belief frog and bfred and I cut you slack because you are obviously uneducated and ignorant  

You pridefully shouting your prayer like a peacock are no better than t he Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.

__________________________________

You are very rude. I think you've just shown who is uneducated & very ignorant.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So you are suggesting that non-profit organizations such as Churches, Red Cross, St. Jude, March of Dimes, etc should start paying taxes from the donations they receive?

 

Churches aren't legitimate charities, the others are.

Yea, I guess stuff like feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, education, shelters for the homeless, soup kitchens, youth programs, free counseling, helping the poor with utility bills to keep the heat on, transporting the elderly & disabled to Dr. appointments, grocery store, etc, helping people with medical bills, and the countless other things that Churches do to help out should not be counted as charity.

I really thought you were smarter than to try and use such a laughable argument.

Originally Posted by EvilGenius:

I understand your misguided belief frog and bfred and I cut you slack because you are obviously uneducated and ignorant about the concepts of the constitution and the founding of this country.   Many fled Europe for the new world to escape what you people are doing, trying to force your prayer on others by hiding in a mob of people.  You would be right in the middle of a lynch mob but you would never defend possibly an innocent man from being hung.  It is sad to see.  

 

It baffles me that you people don't understand that is very proper for you to pray, but it is not proper but you to bluster about loudly shouting your prayer and someone else.  Your rights extend only to where they interfere with the next persons right.  And it is not your right to gather a  mob of the unfortunate ignorant and uneducated like yourself to force others to give up their rights. 

 

That's what our men are in Afghanistan fighting against is people like you.  You pridefully shouting your prayer like a peacock are no better than t he Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.

Evil, I never said anything about shouting a prayer. You should really try and have some integrity with what you post. 

So anyway, I would love to hear more about your opinion that the soldiers in Afghanistan are fighting to keep Christians from praying? Please tell us more? I was really under the impression that they were fighting to protect our constitutional rights. Sorry if you think that freedom of speech is an infringement on your rights but fortunately for those of us who are rational, the law doesn't see it your way.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius:

I understand your misguided belief frog and bfred and I cut you slack because you are obviously uneducated and ignorant about the concepts of the constitution and the founding of this country.   Many fled Europe for the new world to escape what you people are doing, trying to force your prayer on others by hiding in a mob of people.  You would be right in the middle of a lynch mob but you would never defend possibly an innocent man from being hung.  It is sad to see.  

 

It baffles me that you people don't understand that is very proper for you to pray, but it is not proper but you to bluster about loudly shouting your prayer and someone else.  Your rights extend only to where they interfere with the next persons right.  And it is not your right to gather a  mob of the unfortunate ignorant and uneducated like yourself to force others to give up their rights. 

 

That's what our men are in Afghanistan fighting against is people like you.  You pridefully shouting your prayer like a peacock are no better than t he Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.

Evil, I never said anything about shouting a prayer. You should really try and have some integrity with what you post. 

So anyway, I would love to hear more about your opinion that the soldiers in Afghanistan are fighting to keep Christians from praying? Please tell us more? I was really under the impression that they were fighting to protect our constitutional rights. Sorry if you think that freedom of speech is an infringement on your rights but fortunately for those of us who are rational, the law doesn't see it your way.

The bulldog is just another anarchist.

That is what Mr. Green is doing right now. He has been having a food and coat drive for a couple of months now.

 

I still can't find out where Jeremy is warehousing all these coats and food. I'll bet it's a lie and he has been busy stopping prayers. What about it JIMI?

Originally Posted by lexum:

That is what Mr. Green is doing right now. He has been having a food and coat drive for a couple of months now.

 

I still can't find out where Jeremy is warehousing all these coats and food. I'll bet it's a lie and he has been busy stopping prayers. What about it JIMI?

Why do you think that I know anything about this? IF I did, and I don't, why would I volunteer information to a nitwit like you? You are insane.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
 

The bulldog is just another anarchist.

This coming from the guy who just suggested that the U.S. Supreme Court lies in their rulings 

Where did you get that twisted idea? I called you an anarchist because you advocate openly defying the law.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
 

The bulldog is just another anarchist.

This coming from the guy who just suggested that the U.S. Supreme Court lies in their rulings 

Where did you get that twisted idea? I called you an anarchist because you advocate openly defying the law.

I am not sure where you went to law school to make such an interpretation but none of what I've said on this subject advocates breaking any laws. I'm curious as to what you might be making reference to?

I wonder what will be next....Florence City Council? I sure hope so. They have been getting by with breaking the law also for far too long.

 

Today is a great day for all Lauderdale County citizens. We have made progress and we are just that much closer to being a truly free and fair state to all our citizens.

 

I say again, Yay Mr. Green! Thank you for putting yourself on the line and taking the heat from the religious nuts. Hopefully none of them will actually follow through with their threats and do you any harm. If they try remember you have the law on your side. Just as you did this time.

 

Since they are already starting to fight amongst themselves, I see this group, that has formed in the last few days to try and fight against our Constitution, falling apart soon. They will probably walk out on the field and say their prayers to their God and make a big show of it this Friday. Maybe they will carry on with the Lords Prayer in the stands for a game or two. Then they will go right back to fighting and arguing over who worships the right way. Hopefully, but doubtfully, they will finally realize they still have the right to pray. Just not over the PA system at our children's school athletic events.

 

 

Yea, I guess stuff like feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, education, shelters for the homeless, soup kitchens, youth programs, free counseling, helping the poor with utility bills to keep the heat on, transporting the elderly & disabled to Dr. appointments, grocery store, etc, helping people with medical bills, and the countless other things that Churches do to help out should not be counted as charity.

 

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Mega churches, buying up property to build even bigger mega churches, flim flaming gullible old folks out of their land and estates, pastors/preachers driving expensive cars, jewelry dripping off him and his bleached blonde wife's hands. The mansions and cities of gold they live in while they strut around with gold robes and people kissing their rings, and all the while begging for more and more money.  Go to the appalachias and do some good and then get back to me. Churches do the least they can get away with. Those disabled and elderly they help are members of their congregation. Others can go **** up a rope.

To those who support the Brooks will pray initiative, has it occurred to you that apparently there is no public prayer in city ball games? That would be Florence, Sheffield, Muscle Shoals, Deshler, Russellville. I'm assuming they stopped years ago.

 

As for the food/coat drive, it's simple. If you don't like Mr. Green personally, don't support it. I support Heart's Cry Thrift Store in Elgin. Wonderful people and they will provide food and clothing if a person genuinely needs it. They also do Christmas for two nursing homes.

 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

I wonder what will be next....Florence City Council? I sure hope so. They have been getting by with breaking the law also for far too long.

 

Today is a great day for all Lauderdale County citizens. We have made progress and we are just that much closer to being a truly free and fair state to all our citizens.

 

I say again, Yay Mr. Green! Thank you for putting yourself on the line and taking the heat from the religious nuts. Hopefully none of them will actually follow through with their threats and do you any harm. If they try remember you have the law on your side. Just as you did this time.

 

Since they are already starting to fight amongst themselves, I see this group, that has formed in the last few days to try and fight against our Constitution, falling apart soon. They will probably walk out on the field and say their prayers to their God and make a big show of it this Friday. Maybe they will carry on with the Lords Prayer in the stands for a game or two. Then they will go right back to fighting and arguing over who worships the right way. Hopefully, but doubtfully, they will finally realize they still have the right to pray. Just not over the PA system at our children's school athletic events.

 

 


Well said.  Good point on the city council, too.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

How has the city council been breaking the law?

****

 

By routinely offering public prayers by Clowncil members "in Jesus' name."  Often this is done with both opening and closing prayers. Should anyone pose objection to this unconstitutional practice, expect an uninformed and intemperate sermonette from Sam Pendleton, who will add to his ludicrous complaint about his freedom of speech being denied the additional complaint that his freedom of religion also is being attacked. Some other members may also join in, the most likely being Hermon Graham, whose East Florence constituency will be ignorantly impressed.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

How has the city council been breaking the law?

_______________________________

 

Crusty I may have to somewhat retract that statement. There have been many cases where citizens have sued their local government councils for violation of the Establishment Clause and have won, but the SCOTUS is still somewhat wishy washy on this one.The Florence City Council routinely lead sectarian prayers before their meetings.

 

Here are a few examples.

 

The legal benchmark for legislative prayer remains the 1983 Supreme Court decision, Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783 (1983), which ruled that the Nebraska legislature's tradition of opening with a prayer by a paid chaplain was constitutional. Nebraska State Senator Ernie Chambers challenged the practice as violative of the Establishment Clause. The Marsh decision carved out a very narrow exception to the Establishment Clause, as well as established Court doctrine, as a nod to history and custom; however, the Court made clear that “Standing alone, historical patterns cannot justify contemporary violations of constitutional guarantees . . . ” Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 790 (1983). In the Court's language:

To invoke Divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, an “establishment” of religion or a step toward establishment; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country.

If a legislative prayer were to exceed the confines of the circumstances outlined in Marsh, then no such exception would apply. First and foremost, the prayer opportunity must not be “exploited to proselytize or advance any one, or to disparage any other, faith or belief.” Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 794 (1983). This applies to the content of the prayers, the selection of the prayer leaders, be they clergy, representatives, or government officials, and the audience to whom the prayer is addressed. The audience in Marsh was construed as comprising only legislators, represented by the plaintiff, Sen. Ernie Chambers. The Court found that such an audience would not be “readily susceptible to 'religious indoctrination'.”

 

 

Subsequent Supreme Court and lower federal court decisions serve as clarifications of the Marsh v. Chambers analysis, particularly with regard to the content of legislative prayers.

 

In County of Allegheny v. ACLU Greater Pittsburgh Chapter, 492 U.S. 573 (1989), The Court found that, even if history and custom had saved non-sectarian legislative prayer, “history cannot legitimate practices that demonstrate the government's allegiance to a particular sect or creed.” Additionally, the Court reiterated that “not even the 'unique history' of legislative prayer, can justify contemporary legislative prayers that have the effect of affiliating the government with any one specific faith or belief.” The Court continued, “The legislative prayers involved in Marsh did not violate this principle because the particular chaplain had 'removed all references to Christ.'” Therefore, while non-sectarian legislative prayer could fall within the constraints of the Marsh exception, legislative prayer which has the effect of either proselytizing or advancing or disparaging or demonstrating the government's allegiance to or affiliating the government with any particular faith or belief, cannot fall within the constraints of the Marsh exception, regardless of history or custom. The strong sectarian nature of legislative prayer, and/or the inclusion of sectarian references to deities, saints, and/or prophets, could indicate an Establishment Clause violation. It is significant that the U.S. Supreme Court has recently twice upheld the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals requiring that city-led prayers be nonsectarian.

 

So it would be a harder fight and not nearly as clear cut as the prayer in school.

I don't watch the council meetings because I can't get drunk enough to enjoy even that level of ridiculousness.  However, I wonder this:  when they pray, are they praying amongst themselves, or are they forcing a prayer on the attendees as well.  The first would seem to be protected, the second illegal.  Just "thinling" here.  ©

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

I don't watch the council meetings because I can't get drunk enough to enjoy even that level of ridiculousness.  However, I wonder this:  when they pray, are they praying amongst themselves, or are they forcing a prayer on the attendees as well.  The first would seem to be protected, the second illegal.  Just "thinling" here.  ©

***

They are praying in a room where numerous other persons are present beyond the Clowncil members themselves, and their Clowncil meeting goes into many homes via cable TV. They do indeed invoke the name of Jesus.  It appears obvious that this practice constitutes the kind of "endorsement" of a particular belief, which  the courts have consistently held to be unconstitutional.

I think you are right Contendah, but because there have been some unclear verdicts on the matter it may be a tougher case to win. The prayers are always to the Christian God and ending in Jesus name amen.  I feel they are definitely violating the law but it would probably take a full blown law suit to get them to stop.

Originally Posted by lexum:

In such a short time I have determined that Bestworking has a hate for Christian believers.

What is it best? Why all the hate?. What line of work are you in?

_________________________________

You have determined wrong. She doesn't hate Christian believers. She has said many times that she doesn't want Christianity forced on her, just as many don't.

She's probably like myself in that I despise those "Christians" that just wear the hat.

I assume you're one of those?

I have a question for anyone that would care to answer.

There are people in this world that is hungry, without a home, people suffering with diseases & many kinds of sickness. Children/babies that are being abused & killed.

Why is it so important that some people feel the need to pray for, of all things, a ballgame?

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

I think you are right Contendah, but because there have been some unclear verdicts on the matter it may be a tougher case to win. The prayers are always to the Christian God and ending in Jesus name amen.  I feel they are definitely violating the law but it would probably take a full blown law suit to get them to stop.

***

I certainly hope that the school system does not devote its scarce funds to finance a defense against a lawsuit that they would seem destined to lose.  With currently strained school budgets,

the money would be better spent on library books and toilet paper. 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Mega churches, buying up property to build even bigger mega churches, flim flaming gullible old folks out of their land and estates, pastors/preachers driving expensive cars, jewelry dripping off him and his bleached blonde wife's hands. The mansions and cities of gold they live in while they strut around with gold robes and people kissing their rings, and all the while begging for more and more money.  Go to the appalachias and do some good and then get back to me. Churches do the least they can get away with. Those disabled and elderly they help are members of their congregation. Others can go **** up a rope.


So what you're saying is that there should be a limit on the size building a non profit organization can use and a cap on how many people their building can serve? And you are also saying that non profit groups should have a minimum standard set by you on what percentage of their efforts are done in Appalacia?

BTW, the elderly & disabled that get transportation and home repairs from Churches are not always members of the congregation they receive help from.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by Contendah:
 whose East Florence constituency will be ignorantly impressed.


Thanks better, you've just insulted all of East Florence

****

 

Not "insulted," but correctly characterized.  Regrettably,  ignorance and emotional bias relative to the school prayer issue contaminates the thinking of great majority of the citizens of Florence, irrespective of which part of the city they live in.  That is not an insult to the majority, but an acknowledgement of fact.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Mega churches, buying up property to build even bigger mega churches, flim flaming gullible old folks out of their land and estates, pastors/preachers driving expensive cars, jewelry dripping off him and his bleached blonde wife's hands. The mansions and cities of gold they live in while they strut around with gold robes and people kissing their rings, and all the while begging for more and more money.  Go to the appalachias and do some good and then get back to me. Churches do the least they can get away with. Those disabled and elderly they help are members of their congregation. Others can go **** up a rope.


So what you're saying is that there should be a limit on the size building a non profit organization can use and a cap on how many people their building can serve? And you are also saying that non profit groups should have a minimum standard set by you on what percentage of their efforts are done in Appalacia?

BTW, the elderly & disabled that get transportation and home repairs from Churches are not always members of the congregation they receive help from.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I posted what I meant. You take it any way you want to take it. I set no standard for anything. It wouldn't do any good for anyone to suggest anything to the greedy churches. If anyone did get between them and their money you can bet that THEN you would see them all start crying about "separation of church and state". 

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So dog, does that mean that we can disobey any law we think is unjust whether or not you do?

Study Jefferson, then come back and ask the same question.

________________________________

 

In this topic we are talking about the 1st Amendment. Our Constitution is the very basis for all our laws. Do you really think that Jefferson felt the Constitution was unjust? He himself interpreted the 1st Amendment in the same manner in which it is being applied to prayer over the PA system during school football games.

 

Maybe you should read his letter to the Danbury Baptist.

Best, look at all the people you have hurt over this prayer issue just to satisfy a handful of atheists that don’t even attend the games.

Now that you all have won I wonder how many of you will buy season tickets now in support of your victory each year this prayer ban is in force?

Non of you that’s how many.

I tell you what, it offends me that the US Postal Service delivers mail to any atheist owned business. To show you want to be fair and reciprocate have your mail voluntarily stopped. After it’s Federal money being used for atheist religion.

Is my request unfair best? I know it don’t make a lick of sense but neither does yours.

Best, look at all the people you have hurt over this prayer issue just to satisfy a handful of atheists that don’t even attend the games.

Now that you all have won I wonder how many of you will buy season tickets now in support of your victory each year this prayer ban is in force?

Non of you that’s how many.

I tell you what, it offends me that the US Postal Service delivers mail to any atheist owned business. To show you want to be fair and reciprocate have your mail voluntarily stopped. After it’s Federal money being used for atheist religion.

Is my request unfair best? I know it don’t make a lick of sense but neither does yours

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Who have I hurt buffalo and how have I hurt them? No, I don't attend Brooks games, I don't live there. Plenty of you hatefilled christians posting about it don't live there or attend the games either. It's not just a handful of atheists, plenty of christans don't agree with the prayers either. Why should I have my mail stopped? I pay taxes and I buy the stamps or pay to ship packages. I get no service from the government for free. If you want fairness stop delivering mail or packages to churches. They pay no taxes but still get the service. And one thing you got right, nothing you say makes a lick of sense.

Originally Posted by lexum:

but best, you see: your getting mail delivery offends me.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Good. Churches not paying taxes but wanting a say in government offends me. I hope it keeps you up at night being offended that I get mail service that I pay for. I sleep fine btw.

 

Originally Posted by lexum:

Best, look at all the people you have hurt over this prayer issue just to satisfy a handful of atheists that don’t even attend the games.

Now that you all have won I wonder how many of you will buy season tickets now in support of your victory each year this prayer ban is in force?

Non of you that’s how many.

I tell you what, it offends me that the US Postal Service delivers mail to any atheist owned business. To show you want to be fair and reciprocate have your mail voluntarily stopped. After it’s Federal money being used for atheist religion.

Is my request unfair best? I know it don’t make a lick of sense but neither does yours.


Lol.  Your whole post makes so little sense and is just an attempt to argue.  It isn't worth commenting on besides saying those things aren't even related and you know it.  

 

Really...mail service?  If people can't pray before a game they won't go?  Now that is mature.  You have outdone yourself.  I thought I was reading something my kids would say with arms folded and a pout.  If I can't have candy then she can't wear her jacket in the snow...lol.  Same type of logic...lol.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by lexum:

Best, look at all the people you have hurt over this prayer issue just to satisfy a handful of atheists that don’t even attend the games.

Now that you all have won I wonder how many of you will buy season tickets now in support of your victory each year this prayer ban is in force?

Non of you that’s how many.

I tell you what, it offends me that the US Postal Service delivers mail to any atheist owned business. To show you want to be fair and reciprocate have your mail voluntarily stopped. After it’s Federal money being used for atheist religion.

Is my request unfair best? I know it don’t make a lick of sense but neither does yours.


Lol.  Your whole post makes so little sense and is just an attempt to argue.  It isn't worth commenting on besides saying those things aren't even related and you know it.  

 

Really...mail service?  If people can't pray before a game they won't go?  Now that is mature.  You have outdone yourself.  I thought I was reading something my kids would say with arms folded and a pout.  If I can't have candy then she can't wear her jacket in the snow...lol.  Same type of logic...lol.

So, when Christians are forced to obey the law, it "hurts" them? What a bunch of anarchists.

Originally Posted by lexum:

frog, are you saying your insistance of no prayer is not SILLY?


It would seem that way only to someone who feels that insisting that everyone else pray as s/he does is reasonable and fair.  To the rest of the population it is that or whatever other word a particular person wants to use.

Semi, apparently football means more to them than their religious convictions.

 

As someone who is concerned with how we are going to keep the hungry feed and warm this winter, I am offended that they are making money on t-shirt sales in hopes of raising enough  to hire a lawyer and do away with our 1st Amendment rights.Of course this is all in vain. There is no way this will happen. They are so worked up that they are even more delusional and illogical than ever.

 

The hate this group is spewing, and the threats they are using to intimidate those of us that are dedicated to upholding the Constitution, is down right scary.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Semi, apparently football means more to them than their religious convictions. 

As someone who is concerned with how we are going to keep the hungry feed and warm this winter, I am offended that they are making money on t-shirt sales in hopes of raising enough  to hire a lawyer and do away with our 1st Amendment rights.Of course this is all in vain. There is no way this will happen. They are so worked up that they are even more delusional and illogical than ever. 

The hate this group is spewing, and the threats they are using to intimidate those of us that are dedicated to upholding the Constitution, is down right scary.

_____________________________________

I don't get it either. That money could buy a coat for a homeless man/woman, a hot meal for many that hasn't had anything to eat........the list goes on.

It is scary to see how this could end up & not for the good either. After reading the junk on facebook about it, it's slowly reaching gang mentality, thanks to the Christians that wants to pray over a ballgame. 

I don't understand how if the idea is to live a life like that of Jesus Christ and follow his teachings, that becoming a gang and hurting people one way or another makes sense?  I just don't see Jesus encouraging his followers to pay a lawyer to fight for yelling prayers over loudspeakers or calling people names in his name.  

 

No one said anyone should stop praying...it seems more to me like a bunch of people who had things their way for a long time and just don't want to compromise.  How is that following Jesus?  Can someone quote me a Bible verse that says forming a gang and hiring a lawyer to get to pray over loudspeakers in that situation is the blessed and Christian thing to do?  No one said don't pray.

 

I would say that saying their own prayers or bowing heads before the game would be a shining example of following Christ, but how is this setting any example?  I'm not being snarky...just wondering how this movement furthers Jesus, Christianity, or does much of anything positive to help anyone be saved....or warm and fed, for that matter?  

Oh I get it, frog.

 

The only conclusion I can reach is that the reason they believe is *also* "gang mentality."

 

They believe because everybody else they know does and they persecute and ostracize anybody who doesn't.

 

Welcome to Alabamistan.  Be sure to leave your brain at the state line.

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

Oh I get it, frog.

 

The only conclusion I can reach is that the reason they believe is *also* "gang mentality."

 

They believe because everybody else they know does and they persecute and ostracize anybody who doesn't.

 

Welcome to Alabamistan.  Be sure to leave your brain at the state line.

 

 

 

 


Wow.  The line I bolded is not only accurate in more ways than one (not just religion but other ways as well), but is hilarious and scary at the same time.  Alabama is a beautiful state and there are some wonderful people here...too bad the bolded part is true of all states around it as well, too.

Originally Posted by frog:

Can someone quote me a Bible verse that says forming a gang and hiring a lawyer to get to pray over loudspeakers in that situation is the blessed and Christian thing to do?  No one said don't pray.

_____________________________

 

I'm sure Bill Gray can find one & turn it around to fit. He's in another topic about this chanting "AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!  PRAISE THE LORD FOR SUCH GOOD AMERICANS!" 

He's helping push people into that gang mentality.
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by frog:

Can someone quote me a Bible verse that says forming a gang and hiring a lawyer to get to pray over loudspeakers in that situation is the blessed and Christian thing to do?  No one said don't pray.

_____________________________

 

I'm sure Bill Gray can find one & turn it around to fit. He's in another topic about this chanting "AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!  PRAISE THE LORD FOR SUCH GOOD AMERICANS!" 

He's helping push people into that gang mentality.

Yup.  Like I keep saying, a mob is only as smart as the stupidest person in it.  Not naming anybody specifically, but if the shoe fits..... Personally I think BeeG should check which end of his rusty ol' 'Assault-Rifle-O'-God" he's holding before he gets somebody to pull the trigger...

 

@frog: Yeah, 'Bama sure is a beautiful place, and I have met some really good people-believers and non-believers alike.  Good to know that not everybody is a GZ. 

 


 

I'm sure Bill Gray can find one & turn it around to fit. He's in another topic about this chanting "AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!  PRAISE THE LORD FOR SUCH GOOD AMERICANS!"

He's helping push people into that gang mentality

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Bill is one of those whose life I suspect couldn't stand up to scrutiny.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by lexum:

frog, are you saying your insistance of no prayer is not SILLY?


It would seem that way only to someone who feels that insisting that everyone else pray as s/he does is reasonable and fair.  To the rest of the population it is that or whatever other word a particular person wants to use.

=================================

frog this is how it works: one person is praying; the ungrateful hoard is either listening to the words, praying to themselves, paying no attention or thinking about something else. Total freedom on the part of attendees. ,.........mr. green is upset with that? Give me a break. Tell me that really is not a problem for you. i'm so upset over this mail situation. I'm offended.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So dog, does that mean that we can disobey any law we think is unjust whether or not you do?

When Jefferson penned that statement, WHO was the rightful and legal governing body of what eventually became the United States of America? WHO had the right, UNDER LAW, to tell the American colonists what they could and could not do? Sometimes MORALITY supercedes LEGALITY.

Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by lexum:

frog, are you saying your insistance of no prayer is not SILLY?


It would seem that way only to someone who feels that insisting that everyone else pray as s/he does is reasonable and fair.  To the rest of the population it is that or whatever other word a particular person wants to use.

=================================

frog this is how it works: one person is praying; the ungrateful hoard is either listening to the words, praying to themselves, paying no attention or thinking about something else. Total freedom on the part of attendees. ,.........mr. green is upset with that? Give me a break. Tell me that really is not a problem for you. i'm so upset over this mail situation. I'm offended.


If what you say is true then why would it bother anyone to just not do it with the prayer of one religious group or another?  If you are saying that no one is listening anyway, but why not just have a moment of silence and get on with the game?

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So dog, does that mean that we can disobey any law we think is unjust whether or not you do?

When Jefferson penned that statement, WHO was the rightful and legal governing body of what eventually became the United States of America? WHO had the right, UNDER LAW, to tell the American colonists what they could and could not do? Sometimes MORALITY supercedes LEGALITY.


Unless your version of morality isn't what the group chooses to follow.  Then you will most likely be pretty unhappy and want the law followed.  Then if neither is your sense of morality you are stuck I guess.  That is why we have laws....so one "morality" doesn't get to run over everyone else's.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well dog, I am as moral or more so than the christians. I'd say more. Anyway, could you answer my question-can we disobey a law because we think it is unjust? Yes or no.

In my opinion, YES.  Apparently the courts, on occasion, do as well. Otherwise, jury nullification wouldn't exist.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Then in my opinion you have no right to ever complain when someone breaks any law.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well dog, I am as moral or more so than the christians. I'd say more. Anyway, could you answer my question-can we disobey a law because we think it is unjust? Yes or no.

In my opinion, YES.  Apparently the courts, on occasion, do as well. Otherwise, jury nullification wouldn't exist.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Then in my opinion you have no right to ever complain when someone breaks any law.


You need to do more studying on the subject before commenting so absurdly.

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