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BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.


 

LOL...I'm "chatted up" by Atheists every time I come here.  If they are not trying to "convert", might need to see a therapist about that obsession with Christianity issue...being facetious here of course, but there is some truth to that.

 

So, if I'm understanding you, you are comfortable with Christians and Atheists voicing their beliefs in a public forum...just not on your doorstep.  I can agree with that.

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposed to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF


 

Sounds almost like a baited question but what the heck, I'll bite. The reason that the others are distinct from Christianity is because there is only one God and his son is Jesus so that means Christians are right and all the others are just full of crap. Excuse me for being blunt but I prefer to keep it short and simple when I can.

As can likely be told from what I said in other posts, I have mixed feelings about prayer over the PA, I do like to see a Christian prayer being lead over the PA but at the same time I do realize that there are potential side effects which would be detrimental to Christianity so I am personally OK with a moment of reflection or whatever you want to call it where people can either pray by themselves silently, out loud, or however they wish OR that groups can participate in prayers that are lead by others in the audience and of course if someone does not want to participate then they don’t have to.

As for young Mr. Green, it's obvious that he has some need for attention and that his "in your face" atheism is the path he has chosen to get attention and at that, he was successful so I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes as he has likely impressed some of his atheist friends and ticked off most of the rest of the county.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Joy,

 

At the risk of chatting you up , YES it's illegal for a public school to sponsor such prayers.  It has been ruled a violation of the First Amendment.  That is why Lauderdale Co. doesn't just tell the FFRF to go away.

 

DF


You ole chatterer, you.

 

Sorry, I was asking for the law which allowed them to rule that way.  I was hoping someone had it handy.  I may or may not agree with their ruling or it may not apply to this case, not that it would make a difference to anyone but myself...haha...I don't see how the First Amendment applies to prayer at a high school football game?

 

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Last edited by _Joy_
Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with Christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposted to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.


Believers are highly interested in Christianity because we are Christians.  Do what everywhere and to everyone?

 

I think we agree on forum vs. front porch; that obviously pains you.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.

Originally Posted by _Joy_:

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.


You are right in this.  It isn't what "sides" people are on that determines the progress or outcome of a  discussion or negotiation.  I would say that if negotiators went into discussions backed by governments who sent them to be seriously bent on being fair and working for compromise and the interests of all concerned, we wouldn't have many wars, and the same goes for the Religion Forum.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

First of all please note that I said "HISTORY AS A WHOLE" not today's Christian  vs African Americans in the 60's and before. Otherwise you are right in that this should not be a contest of who's more discriminated against, its a p*s***g contest and I should not have responded to all of those who made light of the discrimination that Christians face both now and throughout history. 

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.


So you can pray and acknowledge anyone you want and no one cares if you do or is trying to stop you.  Just please do your thing off the PA or to yourself just as I will not yell how I feel about the universe over the PA system.  Sure...do that...to yourself..and there will be no problem at all.

 

So if you want to feel they are wrong cool, but others do get to have opinions and have a say in things as well however we might happen to feel about something.

I think as long as it was christians burning, hanging, torturing other christians it was OK and not spoken of by the christian masses. Like I ask bill, who was doing all that discriminating against blacks? Had to be a few million christians involved. But like anything else, it's fine when they do it but they want to cry when they think they're being mistreated. And look at what they consider persecution.

Why the contest for which group suffers discrimination and attack most often?  Crimes of prejudice are crimes, regardless of the victim.

 

Just as an aside, it is too bad that people who fancy themselves martyrs cannot speak with those who actually are martyrs.  A first hand account of such a terrifying experience might just snuff out that fancy for good.  You can, however, hear first hand account of crimes of prejudice.  If you have not suffered such a crime, pretending you have is insulting and dishonoring to those who have.  Someone disagreeing with you is not a a crime of prejudice.  JMHO

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