By Sherhonda Allen
City Editor

The Lauderdale County school district is accused of violating the First Amendment by allowing prayers that invoke Jesus Christ to be broadcast over the loudspeaker before Brooks High School football games and at non-district games played on school property.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation calls the prayers illegal. Organizational representatives have written two letters to the school district on behalf of Lauderdale County resident Jeremy L. Green, who confirmed he filed the complaint with the foundation.

“It is coercive and inappropriate to ask students to listen while a prayer is delivered at athletic events,” Freedom From Religion Foundation staff attorney Stephanie Schmitt said in a news release emailed to the TimesDaily on Monday. “This is especially disturbing given the young age of these students.”

Lauderdale County schools Superintendent Bill Valentine said he has received the complaint.

“We have referred that to our attorney for him to research and to make a response,” Valentine said. “Some of the things they have mentioned are youth ball games that are not ours, but do take place on our campuses.”

Green, in an email response requested by the TimesDaily, said he is not trying to prevent individual Christians from praying, but that the law is clear.

“I am simply taking a stand for the Establishment Clause and the separation of church and state in an effort to protect the constitutional rights of the nonreligious,” he said.

“It is illegal for any public school to organize, sponsor or lead prayer at public athletic events,” said Green, who is a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Humanists of the Shoals, and American Atheists. “The Supreme Court of the United States of America has continually made rulings which strike down this practice as illegal.

“Student or faculty-led prayer at high school athletic events could be confusing for impressionable children who are raised in nonreligious or non-Christian homes and see the faculty member or student who is leading the prayer as a school sponsored authority figure.

“It is not the job of the public school system to endorse religion.”

Though Green specifically mentioned athletic events, he and the foundation’s representatives have included all school-sponsored events in the complaint.

“We ask that the school district commence an immediate investigation into the complaints alleged and take immediate action to stop any and all prayers occurring before any school-sponsored event,” Schmitt said.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Madison, Wis., is a nonprofit group that bills itself as an educational organization and the nation’s largest association of freethinkers, including atheists and agnostics. According to its news release, there are 17,000 members nationwide — 150 in Alabama — and a state chapter, the Alabama Freethought Association.

The foundation lists more than 100 “legal successes” since 2009 on its website.

The organization is the same group that sent a letter to the Arab school system, contending that school district was violating the First Amendment and the rights of one family in the Arab community.

As a result of the letter, Arab Superintendent John Mullins in September ceased pregame prayers at Arab High School football games. Those games now begin with a moment of silence.

    
Original Post

The Freedom from Religion Foundation is correct in their interpretation of the constitution as it relates to school-sponsored prayer or other school-sponsored religious activity.  As to non-governmental groups that are not school-affiliated, but that might sometimes use the school's athletic facilities, there is no constitutional reason that such group can not have prayers or other religious exercises on the school's property, so long as those activities are strictly directed and controlled by the private interests, and not the school (an arm of government). It is not clear from the article whether the Freedom from Religion Foundation's complaint would extend to such private activities on school grounds.

 

A public school can make its property available to all kinds of groups, religious and otherwise.  It is not uncommon for churches to lease space in public school facilities to conduct church services.  Of course, the school system must not discriminate in favor of one religious group or another, which would imply an endorsement.  I know of no controversy that has emerged from such a practice.

 

For a long time, in the "Bible Belt" and elsewhere, public, school-endorsed prayers have been commonplace and have generally gotten a "free ride," so to speak, since the practice is very widespread and since there is rarely anyone who is motivated to object to the practice on constitutional grounds.  Lauderdale County officials would be wise to cease the practice rather than to bear the legal costs of vainly attempting to defend it. The downside of such a decision would be to invite ignorant criticism from the under-educated, hard-nosed right wing die-hards who will continue to lament that, "The Supreme Court has taken God out of our schools" and who will condemn the responsible officials for not "standing up for Jesus."

Some of the comments under the story were hilarious, especially the one from the person that didn't know mr. green and had no idea how to contact him, but still went right ahead and told mr. green about his life. Then he left his email address for mr. green so they could "discuss" it. I wonder what this man's qualifications are that he can sit on a forum and tell someone he doesn't know how they live and think and their educational background. I like the part where he proclaims he's not even a christian. Uh huh, sure- wink wink. The "christians" on the forum may want to look away when you get to the word delusional. And I like the part too where this person, on the verge of losing it, accuses mr. green of having rage. LOL!!

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I've been looking for Jeremy Green's contact information but haven't been able to find it. I decided to leave this here.

 

Jeremy, I could hardly be called a Christian, but you **** me off. You scream about your First Amendment rights, which you've twisted to the point they don't even remotely resemble what's in the Constitution, but you are completely oblivious to the rights of others. You've built up some fantasy of what you want the Constitution to be for you and have somehow convinced yourself that it is reality. Nice work, for sure, but most people in the mental health field would call that delusional. I've never met you, but I've met many, many people just like you. I'm sure I can describe you pretty well. Let me try:

 

You're relatively uneducated with probably a HS degree and you've taken maybe a college class or two, but little more. You did well in the classes you took, but couldn't be bothered to invest the time in continuing. You don't see the value in education because you feel you're the capstone of enlightenment and you have probably been known to claim that you "know better than those teachers anyway".

 

You don't really have much of a career, but that isn't your fault, right? It's those mean old companies who just can't see the value in your skeptic ways who are to blame. That's OK with you because you're going to have the last laugh, right?

 

All of that was just for fun. Here's what I really want to say about you:

 

You don't really distrust or dislike Christians in particular. It's all people in all walks of life that you are wary of. You've just found Christians to be easy marks for your rage, and that, Jeremy, is the essence of your problem. You're a pathetic little self-centered, ignorant ego-maniac with a poor self image who has never moved past the grade school bully stage. You feel that a tough persona will make you feel better about yourself, but that hasn't really worked, has it?

 

So now you resort to whining to some anti-christian group, not because you're upset with Christians, but because you're so miserable in the shallow, worthless life you've built for yourself that you'll resort to this just to feel a bit of power. It's control you seek rather than "freedom from religion" and you think this group can bring you a small taste.

 

Fortunately for you, the targets you've chosen are mostly good and caring people who won't retaliate. They feel compassion towards your pathetic existence. I don't. I'm not good or caring. I don't feel anything toward your misery, but I do get ****ed off at worthless wastes of humanity like you who can't mind their own business. If you can't read a simple statement like the First Amendment and understand that it means the exact opposite of what you want it to mean, you're a lost cause. No wonder your family has deserted you.

 

Want to discuss this further? You can reach me at mghallman@gmail.com. I look forward to hearing you cry.

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Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Some of the comments under the story were hilarious, especially the one from the person that didn't know mr. green and had no idea how to contact him, but still went right ahead and told mr. green about his life. Then he left his email address for mr. green so they could "discuss" it. I wonder what this man's qualifications are that he can sit on a forum and tell someone he doesn't know how they live and think and their educational background. I like the part where he proclaims he's not even a christian. Uh huh, sure- wink wink. The "christians" on the forum may want to look away when you get to the word delusional. And I like the part too where this person, on the verge of losing it, accuses mr. green of having rage. LOL!!

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___________________________________

That description could fit our forum wanna be preacher. 

mghallman is among the legions of clueless wingnuts who actually believe that their interpretation of the First Amendment trumps that of the U.S Supreme Court. Mghallman takes the nonsense one step further in his/her silly venture into attempted clairvoyant analysis of Mr. Green's life history and motivation. Mghallman's characterization of Mr. Green's legitimate complaint as "whining" is especially obnoxious.  No one who contends for the proper application of established  constitutional principles should ever be classified as a "whiner." But the beat will continue to go on, as those who, like mghallman, continue to labor under the delusion that people like Mr. Green are delusional.

I did think it was odd that "shoalanda" thought it was her place to post about that, but i guess she feels it's her "christian duty". But she should realize too that others can do the same. There are plenty of "upstanding" religious folks that have legal problems. I know of one preacher that has a habit of writing bad checks. Will she do a background check on ALL involved in the "conflict"? Oh well.

Yes, Shoalda's personal attacks and attempts to expose Mr. Green say more about her than it does about Mr. Green. I disagree with Mr. Greens philosophy but he has a right to it.  Whatever happened to Jesus'  command to pray in private? 

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.

quote:   Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


Hi Red,

 

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Don't you just love it when all the atheists and other vanilla-flavored non-believers wet their pants when we mention Jesus Christ?

 

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Well you'd have to tell us about wyp, I've never done that. What I do love is when you get your  ***** knocked down when you think the laws don't apply to you. BTW, what did sheronda allen do besides report a news story? Could your addled brain be mixing her up with shoalanda?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

Don't you just love it when all the atheists and other vanilla-flavored non-believers wet their pants when we mention Jesus Christ?  Do you suppose it is because they are afraid to remove the blanky from over their heads and recognize that God created and owns this world, them included, and they WILL stand before Him one day -- to explain their superior intellects (?) which deny Him.  

While I know we Christian believers will not be there when they DO stand before Him -- but, haven't you thought about being a "fly on the wall" just once -- to see their faces when they finally cannot deny the Truth?

No, I am not gloating that they will stand before Him in judgment -- only stating the Truth.  They will!!  And, they should be preparing to avoid that judgment instead of wasting so much effort in denying the very Obvious. 

Bill

___________________________________

Don't you just love it when our perfect resident wanna be preacher puts on his Christian hat & comes on here to tell us we’re all going to Hell & in all his excitement, he wets his pants?

 

 Do you suppose he’s afraid to remove the blanky from over his head & recognize that God is the only Judge, & he WILL stand before Him one day -- to explain his superior attitude, to find out that his superior intellect (?) wasn’t all he thought it was?

 

Of course, who knows, we might be there when Bill stands before Him -- but, if we aren’t, wouldn’t you love to be a "fly on the wall"  just once -- to see Bill’s face when he finally cannot deny the Truth of what we’ve tried to tell him? 

 

No, I am not gloating that Bill will stand before Him in judgment……Oh, Ok, I’m gloating! And only stating the Truth. He will!! 

And, he should be preparing to avoid that judgment instead of wasting so much effort judging us all when he should be getting the beam out of his own eye!

 

 

Bill

The God I serve does not need the state force feeding prayer to touch hearts and lives. This is demonstrated in the lives of his people. I am sorry that you think prayers repeated over a loudspeaker at a ball game means so much. Really you do put God in a box.

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

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Really bill? As bad as prejudice in the 1950s? Really? And what is your OBSESSION with people wetting their pants?? Gaggggggggggggggggg

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

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Really bill? As bad as prejudice in the 1950s? Really? And what is your OBSESSION with people wetting their pants?? Gaggggggggggggggggg

=============================

I bet Bill is an ammonia sniffer.

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

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Really bill? As bad as prejudice in the 1950s? Really? And what is your OBSESSION with people wetting their pants?? Gaggggggggggggggggg

=============================

I bet Bill is an ammonia sniffer.

 

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eeeeyowwwwwwwwwwwww!!

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


This is true.

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.

***

 

Amen, Red! This topic has been all over these forums.  The amazing inconsistency is this--the theocrats who support government-formulated, government-imposed prayer (i.e. classroom prayer scheduled and directed by public school  authorities) are often the same folks who say government has no business messing with their private and personal lives and that government is best that governs least.  Yet these alleged government minimalists are willing to allow government (yes, the public school system is an arm of government) to tell their children what to pray for, who to pray to, in whose name to pray, and when to pray.  Go figure.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


Hi Red,

 

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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****

Bill, you live in a nation where you and I and other folks with religious beliefs have the greatest freedom to practice our faith of any place on earth. How about listing some of the alleged instances of the persecution you claim to be so rampant and let us examine them here on the forum and see if your complaints will hold water.  Are you up to this challenge or will you continue to generalize vaguely about all that alleged persecution??

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.


Hi Red,

 

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

So, go ahead and wet your pants -- for we are NOT going to keep quiet about our Jesus Christ and our God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

0 - CROSS-BIBLE_SAID-IT-1c

____________________________________

 

This is probably the worst thing I have ever seen Bill Gray post here in the forums. That is saying a lot!

 

How dare you compare this so-called false Christian persecution to what Black people endured during the 50's and 60's. How many times have Christians been water-hosed in the streets for their beliefs? How many times have you been forced to sit in the back of a theatre, or bus because you are a Christian? How many Christians have been beaten and hanged? When have Christians in the US ever been denied their right to vote or attend the public school or their choice? Please tell me when a Christian has been denied entrance into restaurants, hotels, or forced to drink from another water fountain, just because of their beliefs?

 

You are a horrible man Bill Gray. To make a statement as you did above shows just how out of touch with reality you really are.

 

O No, b50m, this is religious delusion. If you can't see it now, then you never will.

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Folks get so worked up about this. The Supreme Court has said time and again that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. I have heard "they took prayer out of school" all my life. Its nonsense each child still has the right to pray privately and the right to read his or her religious material of choice during free time.

***

 

Amen, Red! This topic has been all over these forums.  The amazing inconsistency is this--the theocrats who support government-formulated, government-imposed prayer (i.e. classroom prayer scheduled and directed by public school  authorities) are often the same folks who say government has no business messing with their private and personal lives and that government is best that governs least.  Yet these alleged government minimalists are willing to allow government (yes, the public school system is an arm of government) to tell their children what to pray for, who to pray to, in whose name to pray, and when to pray.  Go figure.


I would agree with you on that.  It doesn't make sense and no one can have it both ways.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

 

O No, b50m, this is religious delusion. If you can't see it now, then you never will.

Dark, I have argued with Bill quite a bit on his fundamentalism. So has ONO. I put up a Militant Fundamentalist thread one time that gave him fits.

I don't agree with him now and I usually never agree with him. Bill is someone who would want a theocracy.

I do not.

I'm not a fundamentalist either. But I wonder if people point out to you when some atheist says something most people would call outrageous, that it is ATHEIST delusion. No? You mean you're NOT responsible for anything another atheist says? You mean, you are all INDIVIDUALS??!!

 

But it seems you think Christians are not.

I will grant that every group most likely gets picked on one way or another.  But considering the biases against any religious group except Christians and against atheists and agnostics it is confusing to me to see Christians in this country as the persecuted group.  

 

Is there any possibility of someone who is open about being agnostic, an atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, any eastern religion, or even Catholic or Mormon being elected president of the USA now?  Or really with the exception of one Catholic ever much?  Why is that?  Why is Mitt's religion such a big deal to Christians?  Why is it that the laws were ignored (still are often) that said there was to be no open prayer in school?  Who is really being persecuted against in this country if you really think about it, and who is doing the persecution?  Who raises a ruckus about candidates not being strictly religious enough to hold office?  The whole system is skewed toward Christianity.  

 

Of all the places in the US I have lived (most didn't care that much what you were if you lived the law and didn't cause trouble) the idea that Christians are the persecuted group is laughable.  Kids don't get teased at school for being Christian unless they make a deal of it and try to preach to everyone and maybe not then.  People ask your church before they ask your name here and it seriously matters what your answer is.  Have you heard of any Christian church in the country being harassed and torched or forbidden to build in a town? 

 

I have heard of other ones being picketed and refused or harassed, though, by the Christians usually.  I see religious material in the newspaper, on the news, I see people who refuse to be friends or let their kids play with kids who aren't Christian, too.  I'm not saying there is no persecution at all anywhere, but anyone who believes that it is really accepted to be anything but Christian in this area especially doesn't get out much.  And just to clarify, I said this back when I was Catholic, when I went to a couple of other Christian churches, and when I saw kids getting picked on for not going to the "right" church.

 

Be honest and tell me that if I were a fantastically skilled surgeon with excellent credentials in a specialty this area needed and I wasn't aware I couldn't say I am an atheist and so I did (you know, when they asked me illegally as they would), and someone came along who was a decent one but not the same caliber but went to a Christian church, who do you think would get the job in this area.  

 

Sorry, but not getting to yell prayers over a loudspeaker at a public school gathering isn't persecution.  It's fair and reasonable...oh, and the law.

Originally Posted by O No!:

I'm not a fundamentalist either. But I wonder if people point out to you when some atheist says something most people would call outrageous, that it is ATHEIST delusion. No? You mean you're NOT responsible for anything another atheist says? You mean, you are all INDIVIDUALS??!!

 

But it seems you think Christians are not.


Yes, actually on this forum all atheists are usually lumped together as "atheist" or "the atheists" , and it is often followed but comments about them.  It goes both ways.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

You are completely bonkers and delusional for your own individual reasons O No. I would never try and take that individuality away from you.

 

Yours has nothing what so ever to do with your religion.

 

Of course I am only joking....

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Well, I AM a musician, and you know what they say about musicians. Bonkers? Definitely! Delusional? No, I think that's your forte.

 

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by O No!:

I'm not a fundamentalist either. But I wonder if people point out to you when some atheist says something most people would call outrageous, that it is ATHEIST delusion. No? You mean you're NOT responsible for anything another atheist says? You mean, you are all INDIVIDUALS??!!

 

But it seems you think Christians are not.


Yes, actually on this forum all atheists are usually lumped together as "atheist" or "the atheists" , and it is often followed but comments about them.  It goes both ways.

___________________________________________________________________________

Not me. Some of my best friends, both on the forum and in real life, are atheists. I think you will notice that when I say "the atheists", it is when I am speaking of something general, such as "The atheists may not believe in God, but God believes in them." But when I am talking about something specific like being called stupid for believing in God, I will say SOME atheists. After all, my sweet friend Bluetick never said an unkind word to anyone because of their faith. I would NEVER lump him in with the likes of SOME of the atheists on this forum.

 

Originally Posted by b50m:

 

 

And the "persecution" of Christians is sooo not the same as that of blacks.  You obviously aren't black or you would know that.  That is an amazing assertion.

 

 

 

 

I hope that was to Bill, as he is the one who said that.


Oh yes...I think he was the only one that said it.  I miss posts sometimes when things get fast, but yes, it was to him.

Originally Posted by frog:

I will grant that every group most likely gets picked on one way or another.  But considering the biases against any religious group except Christians and against atheists and agnostics it is confusing to me to see Christians in this country as the persecuted group.  

 

Is there any possibility of someone who is open about being agnostic, an atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, any eastern religion, or even Catholic or Mormon being elected president of the USA now?  Or really with the exception of one Catholic ever much?  Why is that?  Why is Mitt's religion such a big deal to Christians?  Why is it that the laws were ignored (still are often) that said there was to be no open prayer in school?  Who is really being persecuted against in this country if you really think about it, and who is doing the persecution?  Who raises a ruckus about candidates not being strictly religious enough to hold office?  The whole system is skewed toward Christianity.  

 

Of all the places in the US I have lived (most didn't care that much what you were if you lived the law and didn't cause trouble) the idea that Christians are the persecuted group is laughable.  Kids don't get teased at school for being Christian unless they make a deal of it and try to preach to everyone and maybe not then.  People ask your church before they ask your name here and it seriously matters what your answer is.  Have you heard of any Christian church in the country being harassed and torched or forbidden to build in a town? 

 

I have heard of other ones being picketed and refused or harassed, though, by the Christians usually.  I see religious material in the newspaper, on the news, I see people who refuse to be friends or let their kids play with kids who aren't Christian, too.  I'm not saying there is no persecution at all anywhere, but anyone who believes that it is really accepted to be anything but Christian in this area especially doesn't get out much.  And just to clarify, I said this back when I was Catholic, when I went to a couple of other Christian churches, and when I saw kids getting picked on for not going to the "right" church.

 

Be honest and tell me that if I were a fantastically skilled surgeon with excellent credentials in a specialty this area needed and I wasn't aware I couldn't say I am an atheist and so I did (you know, when they asked me illegally as they would), and someone came along who was a decent one but not the same caliber but went to a Christian church, who do you think would get the job in this area.  

 

Sorry, but not getting to yell prayers over a loudspeaker at a public school gathering isn't persecution.  It's fair and reasonable...oh, and the law.

============================================================================

 

Good post, frog.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

d.Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

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You've had the fire hoses turned on you and dogs let loose to attack you because you wanted prayer in schools or before a football game?  

Bill is even more off-base than that.  Let's face it, persecution of blacks in this country goes back to the first slave brought here.  Water hoses and dogs?  Try torture, lynching, and outright murder (and I'm still talking about the 50s and 60s).

 

How about it, Bill.  Any of these happen to you?

Originally Posted by Glass Onion:

You've had the fire hoses turned on you and dogs let loose to attack you because you wanted prayer in schools or before a football game?  

_________________________________

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Bill is even more off-base than that.  Let's face it, persecution of blacks in this country goes back to the first slave brought here.  Water hoses and dogs?  Try torture, lynching, and outright murder (and I'm still talking about the 50s and 60s).

How about it, Bill.  Any of these happen to you?

______________________________

Good points from both of you, & very true.

Bill will probably make a joke from what you said but your post makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

How ds? By stopping them from praying at ballgames? Oh wait-nevermind.

Where's Mr. Green's 'outrage' over all of the government intrusion into our lives? WHAT HARM....to ANYone...Green included...did Mo Brooks do?


What are you talking about?

dogsoldier, do you personally know Mr. Green? If not why do you think he would only be concerned with this issue?

 

What the local county school system has been doing is illegal. He pointed this out as a concerned citizen. Standing up for the rights of ALL Americans is very patriotic and admirable.

 

I have been reading post made by local Christians on Facebook, and the TD. I am shocked at the level of ignorance people have concerning our Constitution and our laws. They are now "threatening" to pray out loud from the stands. I find this hilarious. For some reason they think they will be fighting against Mr. Green and the Constitution by doing this. I hope they do it. I think it would be awesome! Maybe then they will understand that no one is trying to take their God away or prevent them from praying. The only thing they can't do is lead a prayer to Jesus Christ (or any other god) over the PA system. We do not live in a theocracy and I for one want to keep it that way.

 

I read one post where they were "brainstorming" on ways to combat this evil thing by meeting across the street and praying and then having the local police to stop traffic while they crossed back and forth 72 hwy.......Now that makes sense. LOL

 

Mr. Green is receiving threats and hate filled mail. I have every confidence that he will be able to handle the heat, but it is simply ridiculous that these Christians have taken it to this kind of level. Most of them say that Mr. Green and anyone else that does not believe as they do can just stay home, or plug their ears. Why should he or anyone else have to do that? Do the beliefs of Christians trump the rights of American citizens? No, and hopefully it never will.

I have said it before and will say it again, I'm all for a Christian prayer being led before events but if it's a school sanctioned event and if the law says that we have to be fair to all belief systems then I would rather give up the Christian prayer over the PA than to have to have to give a turn at the mic to a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc.

I personally like the way it was handled in Arab with how the Christian community reacted & prevailed. If Lauderdale County School's leadership does not think that they can successfully defend the current practice in court then I think offering a moment of reflection would be an appropriate measure until this whole thing blows over. If a moment of reflection before school sponsored events is all we get then I would hope that the Lauderdale County Christian community would continuously show up at the events to pray during that time.

As for the whole going across the street thing then I say do not let God be run out of the stadium and across the street, as for stopping traffic while you cross the road, that’s just crazy & spiteful and doing such a thing is not exactly going to win any converts.

With the above said, I do prefer that God be acknowledged in all that we do but at the same time the practice of a prayer over the PA before games can come back to bite us because if prayer can always be led at public schools at the discretion of staff then there is the danger of non Christian staff practicing their religion with our children and us not being able to do anything about it so we should be careful of the particulars of exactly what we are fighting/arguing for and realize that the official outcome will be fair to all religions.

 that’s just crazy & spiteful and

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Par for the course for the radical religious. They don't think the law applies to them. One way to handle it I guess is to start inviting all the other religions to attend and lead their prayers.

I don't understand what would be accomplished by people across the street and blocking traffic.  No one said anything about God not being allowed in the stadium.  If God is omnipotent he can't be forced out of anywhere, and that also means he can hear thoughts and quiet prayers.  So what is the difference between a moment of silence that gives time for everyone to pray or think or do whatever quiet they wish, and having prayers yelled over loudspeakers if he can hear everyone and knows what is in everyone's heart?  I'm being sincere here...the only difference I see is that if there is yelling everyone there has to hear it as well whether they want to or not.  I didn't understand it when I was in school from  young childhood and I still don't.

 

If I give my spouse a glance or smile he knows what I'm saying without verbal exchange....why wouldn't God hear the prayers as well without the yelling in stadiums since he's been around forever and knows us all so intimately?  Didn't Jesus say he liked things understated and private without show and fanfare anyway?  I just don't understand that part besides people trying to get everyone else to pray with them?

 

If we had prayer time out loud for every other group  it would be a big prayer meeting.  How is that playing a game?  A moment of silence gives everyone a chance to pray if desired.

Obviously you live in a very narrow, protected part of this beautiful nation.  Come outside sometime and look around.  Anti-Christian prejudice today is just as flagrant as anti-black prejudice was in the 1950s.   Yes, you can deny it all you want.  Birmingham denied it back then --but, that did not change the truth.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This from a man that has NO problem at all discriminating against others and wanting to deny them their rights. He posts BS like this right along with his threads calling other denominations "cults" and his ****** posts against homosexuals or anyone that doesn't believe or believe like him. This has been pointed out to him before, but every time he does it I'm going to point it out to him again. Come on bill, give us just ONE, just ONE example of how christians are treated like the blacks were in the 50s, 60s. Oh and btw bill, just who was treating them like that? Atheists?  So come on bill, give us a few examples. You want YOUR right to pray at ballgames or anywhere else, you just don't want others to have that same right. But you don't want a theocracy? Pftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

I was asked about this subject on another forum & answered.  I had avoided this thread & suddenly felt a little guilty about that.  I should be willing to voice my opinion regardless of likely animosity.  So, as I said on another forum...

 

To be honest, this is always a difficult one for me. I wouldn't like it if some other religion prayed, chanted, sang (whatever they might do) to their god before my kids' or grandkid's ballgames. However, since I am a believer, I also know how helpful prayer is before doing anything. It's a conundrum for the thinking Christian. We understand his complaint, the quite valid place from which it comes, but also understand that inviting God in is always better than showing him the door.

 

I asked my son his opinion.  He said nothing can stop an individual from praying and regardless of the decision to be made, those that want to pray can still pray and those who do not, will not.  I agree.  When it's all said and done, It may be much ado about nothing.

Thoughtful response, Joy, and I understand what you mean

 

I wouldn't personally feel I was showing God the door by not praying out loud since I would still pray to myself if I wanted, and I would think that all the individual prayers would resonate together.  I agree putting out some positive energy before an event...praying, energy, good thoughts, getting focused...isn't a bad idea at all.  It's just how it is done that is the issue, and I think your son is very wise

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.

Originally Posted by frog:

A moment of silence gives everyone a chance to pray if desired.

True.  It would allow agreement in prayer by believers who wish to participate.  Since those who do not want to pray cannot hear the prayer, it leaves no room for complaint...excepting those who complain because they enjoy it so much.

Originally Posted by frog:

Thoughtful response, Joy, and I understand what you mean

 

I wouldn't personally feel I was showing God the door by not praying out loud since I would still pray to myself if I wanted, and I would think that all the individual prayers would resonate together.  I agree putting out some positive energy before an event...praying, energy, good thoughts, getting focused...isn't a bad idea at all.  It's just how it is done that is the issue, and I think your son is very wise


Thanks, frog.  I think so, too, but I am a wee bit biased.  

 

That's a good point regarding how to use the moment of silence.  Those not praying can use the moment of silence in a positive way as well.

Problem is some christians claim everything is an attack. If someone starts "preaching or witnessing" to me and I tell them I don't believe and don't want to hear it, they call it an attack against their god. To me they're the "attackers" so to speak, when they start with me or start handing out their little leaflets, or knock on my door wanting contributions for religious organizations or events.

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.

I never approach anyone and say to them "are you saved from religion? Can I tell you all about atheism"?  I don't go door to door soliciting funds for atheist programs or causes. If by open minded you mean I should have to stand and listen to unsolicited  "witnessing or mini-sermons" , then stand still for the "insults" some like to give when you tell them you don't believe, then I'd say no, my mind isn't open to that.

I don't go door to door either, Best.  Just as all Christians are not like me, not all Atheists are like you.  The obnoxious exist in all groups.  The obnoxious in your group deserve to be acknowledged every bit as the obnoxious in mine...haha. 

 

One person insisting on complete innocence or insisting on complete guilt on behalf of their group or an 'opposing' group' is just not true.  Unless it's a really really small group, and perhaps not even then, one person cannot speak on behalf of a group because we are all individuals with our own set of beliefs, talents, opinions, backgrounds, circumstances, etc. 

 

We cannot know the mind of another individual just because we have one thing in common.  Conversely, we cannot know the mind of another just because we are opposites in some areas of our lives. 

 

We also do not deserve to be thrown together in one pot simply because we have something in common. You and I are both women...does that mean I know your mind?...no, of course not...and it doesn't make me responsible for your actions either.  I'm not saying that is what you are doing...just making the observation.

BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

It has nothing to do with claiming innocence for atheists. I've never heard any christian say they were "chatted up" by an atheist wantng to tell them about atheism or "convert" them. IF they ask I'm sure there are plenty of atheists willing to tell them. And IF either atheist or christian go to forums such as this one, or ones specifically for atheist or christian, then they are giving permission in a way, to be preached at or hear about atheism or religion and they can decide on their own how much they want to hear or read about it. For instance, I don't read bill's or gb's sermons, If I've ask a question I might read the first paragraph to see if they addressed the question, but if they don't, and launch into a bible lesson to avoid answering, which they do most of the time, I just move on. And they're free to do the same.


 

LOL...I'm "chatted up" by Atheists every time I come here.  If they are not trying to "convert", might need to see a therapist about that obsession with Christianity issue...being facetious here of course, but there is some truth to that.

 

So, if I'm understanding you, you are comfortable with Christians and Atheists voicing their beliefs in a public forum...just not on your doorstep.  I can agree with that.

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposed to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Bill

The God I serve does not need the state force feeding prayer to touch hearts and lives. This is demonstrated in the lives of his people. I am sorry that you think prayers repeated over a loudspeaker at a ball game means so much. Really you do put God in a box.

 

AMEN!

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

BFred,

 

In your quest to be open-minded, you mentioned "a bunch of imbeciles such as the muslims, buddhists, mormons, wiccans, etc." as distinct from Christians.

 

What makes them imbeciles and Christians not imbeciles?  There's at least as much reason to believe in Islam, Buddism, etc. as there is in Christianity.  It's one reason to conclude that they're all pulling your leg.  They can't all be right, and each is equally valid.

 

Regarding the kerfluffle in Lauderdale Co. regarding football prayers, I am a bit surprised to see there are still prayers at public facility functions like this.  They should have stopped bothering people with Jesus at football games decades ago.  It's just not legal. 

 

Jeremy did the right thing.  I'm proud of him.

 

Y'all have a good day!

 

DF


 

Sounds almost like a baited question but what the heck, I'll bite. The reason that the others are distinct from Christianity is because there is only one God and his son is Jesus so that means Christians are right and all the others are just full of crap. Excuse me for being blunt but I prefer to keep it short and simple when I can.

As can likely be told from what I said in other posts, I have mixed feelings about prayer over the PA, I do like to see a Christian prayer being lead over the PA but at the same time I do realize that there are potential side effects which would be detrimental to Christianity so I am personally OK with a moment of reflection or whatever you want to call it where people can either pray by themselves silently, out loud, or however they wish OR that groups can participate in prayers that are lead by others in the audience and of course if someone does not want to participate then they don’t have to.

As for young Mr. Green, it's obvious that he has some need for attention and that his "in your face" atheism is the path he has chosen to get attention and at that, he was successful so I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes as he has likely impressed some of his atheist friends and ticked off most of the rest of the county.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Joy,

 

At the risk of chatting you up , YES it's illegal for a public school to sponsor such prayers.  It has been ruled a violation of the First Amendment.  That is why Lauderdale Co. doesn't just tell the FFRF to go away.

 

DF


You ole chatterer, you.

 

Sorry, I was asking for the law which allowed them to rule that way.  I was hoping someone had it handy.  I may or may not agree with their ruling or it may not apply to this case, not that it would make a difference to anyone but myself...haha...I don't see how the First Amendment applies to prayer at a high school football game?

 

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I, and others I'd guess, wonder about the obsession with Christianity that believers have. They build all sorts of monuments, halls, churches, even cities in that obsession. It's not enough that they can go to those places and indulge in that obsession, they want to do it everywhere and to everyone. Maybe they need the therapist to tell them why. Who has tried to convert you? And again, when you choose to be exposted to atheist or christian opinions by coming on a public forum it's not the same as having someone walk up to you and start the conversation. Christian or atheist you have a right to tell them to go away.


Believers are highly interested in Christianity because we are Christians.  Do what everywhere and to everyone?

 

I think we agree on forum vs. front porch; that obviously pains you.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.

Originally Posted by _Joy_:

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.


You are right in this.  It isn't what "sides" people are on that determines the progress or outcome of a  discussion or negotiation.  I would say that if negotiators went into discussions backed by governments who sent them to be seriously bent on being fair and working for compromise and the interests of all concerned, we wouldn't have many wars, and the same goes for the Religion Forum.

Pains me? So what if christianity is important to you, it still doesn't explain the obsession and wanting it in every area of peoples lives, business and politics.  If people want atheists to keep quiet about atheism then they should keep quiet about their christianity.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by BFred07:

Nothing at all to stop people in the crowd from praying together during a moment of reflection or any other time for that matter, that's a right protected by the constitution. The only part that the legal aspect is being questioned on is if it can be done over the PA system but a PA is not required.

 

As for the argument about Christians being discriminated against, it is not comparing apples to apples on racial discrimination but yes Christians are discriminated against and every year there are more than a handful of Chirstians who are murdered because of their faith, there is currently far more discrimination and attacks against Christianity than there are against homosexuality and throughout history as a whole there has been more discrimination against Christians & Jews than most other types of discrimination including racial.


But there are gays, lesbians, Muslims, blacks, etc., murdered each year too for being whoever they happen to be.  Of course there were periods where Christians were treated badly, and so were witches (still are, for that matter), atheists, blacks, and just about every group.  I don't really think it's a contest on who is treated the worst, but I just don't agree with the bolded part and I don't think it can be proven statistically because the gay people often have to hide who they are as do atheists in some areas, and attacks and discrimination can be subtler than screaming obscenities or dragging behind cars.  Sorry, but it isn't true that being black many years ago is the same as what Christians go through today.  Where in this country have you seen a Christian being made to sit in the back of a bus or not allowed to eat in a diner, use a restroom, pool, or belong to a private country club...not to mention when did you see a Christian forbidden to enter public school simply because s/he happened to be Christian with no other considerations but the faith?   While humans do tend to think they have it worse than others no matter what group they are in...but the same freedom to be non-Christian protects the Christians in our country as well.

 

Consider this for a moment.  I am happy with who I am and what I believe, but there is no way you could convince me that it wouldn't make a difference most places in our area and many areas of our country in a job interview if I said I wasn't Christian.  As I said...do you think an atheist or agnostic will be president or vice president in the foreseeable future?  Of course not...most groups face some kind of issues at some point, but the main thread that runs through it all is the need for some people to try to ostracize anyone who is different in a way that bothers them.  This goes all around...chanting names at Christians is no better in my view than chanting them at atheists or any other group.  

 

Just a thought...how many atheists even are in Congress?  http://bligbi.com/2007/03/12/f...atheist-in-congress/   http://chronicle.com/blogs/bra...n-congress-why/31230

 

Now there are plenty of atheists around...why do you (not you yourself, but a general you) think that could be?  Perhaps that a great candidate would be told that if s/he wants to be elected it isn't smart to talk about his lack of belief or be attacked mercilessly?  I would bet that is at least part of it.  I'm not saying those sources above are perfect, but I could have posted many on our country's leaders saying awful things about atheists or people of other religions.  Really, there is discrimination everywhere...how about we work to stop it instead of trying to figure out who gets picked on more?  I mean if we start all treating each other with respect and this problem would really become a non-issue.

First of all please note that I said "HISTORY AS A WHOLE" not today's Christian  vs African Americans in the 60's and before. Otherwise you are right in that this should not be a contest of who's more discriminated against, its a p*s***g contest and I should not have responded to all of those who made light of the discrimination that Christians face both now and throughout history. 

What about his past fred? And what about the "other sides past"? And it's your opinion only that the others are wrong. I guess it must feel awful for christians to "give up"  what they mistakenly think is their "right" because they're so afraid they'd have to allow others to have the same rights.

Originally Posted by BFred07:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

So fred, it's only his need for attention and wish to impress someone?

That Pretty well sums it up, it is plain to see from the way the boy acts out and from his past.


Why pray in public? To impress people and show that they don't want to obey the law?

A publicly lead prayer is a good thing to have before most events and the point to them is to acknowledge God, give thanks, and pray about the specific event. No one is saying that a public pre game prayer is the place for personal prayers which should be done privately. 


Maybe the others think you're full of crap and they're right.

In this great country they are free to think whatever they want but they're still wrong.


So you can pray and acknowledge anyone you want and no one cares if you do or is trying to stop you.  Just please do your thing off the PA or to yourself just as I will not yell how I feel about the universe over the PA system.  Sure...do that...to yourself..and there will be no problem at all.

 

So if you want to feel they are wrong cool, but others do get to have opinions and have a say in things as well however we might happen to feel about something.

I think as long as it was christians burning, hanging, torturing other christians it was OK and not spoken of by the christian masses. Like I ask bill, who was doing all that discriminating against blacks? Had to be a few million christians involved. But like anything else, it's fine when they do it but they want to cry when they think they're being mistreated. And look at what they consider persecution.

Why the contest for which group suffers discrimination and attack most often?  Crimes of prejudice are crimes, regardless of the victim.

 

Just as an aside, it is too bad that people who fancy themselves martyrs cannot speak with those who actually are martyrs.  A first hand account of such a terrifying experience might just snuff out that fancy for good.  You can, however, hear first hand account of crimes of prejudice.  If you have not suffered such a crime, pretending you have is insulting and dishonoring to those who have.  Someone disagreeing with you is not a a crime of prejudice.  JMHO

So what I'm reading from some is that it's OK for an atheist to assert their right to not have an official prayer at taxpayer funded events but that it's not OK for Christians to assert their right to speak out loud when praying. What I am hearing is a few people telling me that Christians need to go to the corner and be quite but that is simply not going to happen.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Pains me? So what if christianity is important to you, it still doesn't explain the obsession and wanting it in every area of peoples lives, business and politics.  If people want atheists to keep quiet about atheism then they should keep quiet about their christianity.


I do not want you to keep quiet about Atheism.  I agree that if someone wants you to be quiet, the fair thing would be for them to also remain quiet.

 

I was kidding about the pains you thing.  You'd think I'd know by now who I can kid around with and who I cannot.  I mean that you keep arguing a point we've already agreed on.

 

Please explain how Christians want it (and what is 'it'?) in every area of peoples' lives, business and politics.  If you mean simply being who we are, voicing our opinions, using legal means to defend what we feel is right for America, voting for whoever we feel is the best candidate for office, promoting said candidate, etc., there's no way to change that, and to do so seems criminal.

Originally Posted by BFred07:

So what I'm reading from some is that it's OK for an atheist to assert their right to not have an official prayer at taxpayer funded events but that it's not OK for Christians to assert their right to speak out loud when praying. What I am hearing is a few people telling me that Christians need to go to the corner and be quite but that is simply not going to happen.


I didn't see that anywhere here.  Who said that?  What you are hearing and what others are saying isn't the same thing.

 

The problem is that saying prayers over the loudspeaker is cool for one group, but the rest of the group there might not want to hear them.  So all people are saying is you say your prayers if you like and anyone else can do whatever she likes...but not over the loudspeaker and not in a disruptive way that infringes on others' rights.  No one said you couldn't pray.  

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by _Joy_:

Best, some Atheists are guilty of the same.  It doesn't matter your system of belief or non-belief, your intent and motivation in a discussion will determine the result...and even then, it is dependent on others involved in the discussion sharing the same intent and motivation.  Is your intent mutual understanding or condemnation; and what is the intent of those with whom you converse?  Do you set yourself above or see the person with whom you are speaking as an equal?  I rarely run across someone who is fair and open-minded anymore.  I hope that I am, but sometimes I fail at that, too.


You are right in this.  It isn't what "sides" people are on that determines the progress or outcome of a  discussion or negotiation.  I would say that if negotiators went into discussions backed by governments who sent them to be seriously bent on being fair and working for compromise and the interests of all concerned, we wouldn't have many wars, and the same goes for the Religion Forum.


I could not agree more, frog.

I was kidding about the pains you thing.  You'd think I'd know by now who I can kid around with and who I cannot.  I mean that you keep arguing a point we've already agreed on.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I keep arguing the point we've agreed on? Maybe you should go back through the posts. Seems it's you that can't let it go. Or was I supposed to say, "oh you're so right, atheists should leave the forum"? I can kid around IF the "joke" makes sense. If it pains you was the joke? hmmmmmmmm How about this-nuff said.

Chill out, Best.  We agree that we are comfortable with Atheists and Christians voicing their beliefs in a public forum, just not on our front porch. 

 

One more time now...I'm not trying to silence anyone, have no reason to do that.  That's another thing we agree on...as I said, if someone wants you to be silent, the fair thing is to remain silent yourself.  I  have no reason to want Atheists to leave this forum either - have no idea why you would think that.

America is sliding down a slippery slope from which it may not recover, all because of liberalism, anti-Christian court rulings and minority (pick one)-held beliefs becoming the norm, rather than the rule. Collectively, America has asked....no, BEGGED....for it for the past 40 years. She may very well choke on it.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by BFred07:

So what I'm reading from some is that it's OK for an atheist to assert their right to not have an official prayer at taxpayer funded events but that it's not OK for Christians to assert their right to speak out loud when praying. What I am hearing is a few people telling me that Christians need to go to the corner and be quite but that is simply not going to happen.


I didn't see that anywhere here.  Who said that?  What you are hearing and what others are saying isn't the same thing.

 

The problem is that saying prayers over the loudspeaker is cool for one group, but the rest of the group there might not want to hear them.  So all people are saying is you say your prayers if you like and anyone else can do whatever she likes...but not over the loudspeaker and not in a disruptive way that infringes on others' rights.  No one said you couldn't pray.  

People have said that we can pray silently to ourselves which is the same thing, if a group wants to say a prayer out loud then that is still their right. The law might very well be that the PA belonging to the school cannot be used however that does not stop Christians in the crowd from praying or having a prayer led, it can still be out loud and the 1st amendment protects our right to do so. 

The only thing that I saw in this story is that we might have to stop using the public PA, nothing else changes.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

America is sliding down a slippery slope from which it may not recover, all because of liberalism, anti-Christian court rulings and minority (pick one)-held beliefs becoming the norm, rather than the rule. Collectively, America has asked....no, BEGGED....for it for the past 40 years. She may very well choke on it.


After all, this is your America and not anyone else's unless they agree with you completely.  So I guess it is only fair that you should get to decide personally what everyone else in your whole country gets to do.

 

But if you could just get rid of all those pesky "others" you would get your country back.  So if we get rid everyone but white Christian males America will be safe?  Hmm...when you reread your post do you see the racism an bigotry in it, or do you honestly believe what you posted and think it is Christian?  

Dog, go into your thoughts on that a bit deeper. Tell us who is to "blame" for all those laws and rulings. Who has had control of this country for all these years dog?  Do atheists control the country? Do the illegals control the county? Yet? Now who allowed/brought in all the illegals dog? Who's crying over the attempt to deport the illegals and who's giving them sanctuary and fighting the government to keep them here and support them? Is it anti-christians or the churches? Tell us in your own words who brought us to where we are. There is plenty of blame to go around. Giving people basic human rights is never bad no matter who "gives" them to people, but on the flip side, giving the country over to foreign interests and illegals isn't good for the country. So seriously, tell us how we got to where we are and how allowing the church to run the government would help us.

Funny, this.

 

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

  Oh-Then go on to explain about how you believe in supernatural beings......

That oughtta do it.  Way to prove you're not a moron. 

 

 

I'm with Jeremy on this issue.  If I'm sitting at a public event sanctioned by a city or school-I don't wanna be forced to participate (which is exactly what you're doing if you broadcast to an audience) in a religious ritual.  If I have to sit through it-I'm included in it whether I wanna be or not.

 

I don't go into a church and interrupt your praying with my cussing-I expect you not to interrupt my cussing with your praying outside the church.

  Do like they do in Arab. Take your offered moment of reflection and pray then. Pray out loud, I don't care....Just don't force me to be a part of it because you feel you need an amplifier to shout it to the mountaintops.  If I hadda buy a ticket-I wanna see a game, not go to church.

 

Not everybody on those mountaintops believes like you...and they get just as bent outta shape as you do when you try to force-feed your belief to them.

 

Christians have gotten a free pass for a long time when it comes to stuff like this. They're not surrounded by just other christians anymore. It's about time, I think, that they began to realize that.  Welcome to the 00s.  People have evolved past ghosties and fairies by now.

 

Well.........Some of us have.

 

 

 

From RP ...

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

 

 

RP, I read the same article (really not sure you read it, but maybe scanned it?) and I thought the point was simply he wasn't really employed. And I've heard he lies about the MBA too. Don't know or don't really care, but if he lies about one thing which he did on his employer being Google of all companies, wouldn't he lie about something else.? Maybe not since maybe he wanted to impress girls or something. I have a neighbor with an MBA and she works two jobs. I barely have a BS and have a great job, for me, but it sure doesn't impress people as far as job title.. I see this guy as someone who wants to impress, maybe because of his past problems?

Originally Posted by Infomercial:

From RP ...

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

 

 

RP, I read the same article (really not sure you read it, but maybe scanned it?) and I thought the point was simply he wasn't really employed. And I've heard he lies about the MBA too. Don't know or don't really care, but if he lies about one thing which he did on his employer being Google of all companies, wouldn't he lie about something else.? Maybe not since maybe he wanted to impress girls or something. I have a neighbor with an MBA and she works two jobs. I barely have a BS and have a great job, for me, but it sure doesn't impress people as far as job title.. I see this guy as someone who wants to impress, maybe because of his past problems?

___________________________________

 

Mr. Green does work as a Search Engine Evaluator for Google. It is a legitimate job and I wish I had it.

 

It is amazing to me that Shoalanda and others have decided to attack Mr. Green personally and drag up things that have absolutely nothing to do with the school prayer issue. I see this as a way to try and draw attention away from the fact that the school system is breaking the law.

 

Seems that you and Shoalanda don't care much for the truth. You would rather just believe a lie, right? I did not know you had to have a spotless history to be able to point out illegal activity in our government. He has every right as an American citizen to file a complaint.

 

Those that are using this as their argument against the law must know they don't have a leg to stand on legally..

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What did he lie about concerning the prayer before the ballgame? And who is shoalander? Is she/he employed?

_____________________________

 

Here ya go Best..

 

http://shoalandaspeaks.blogspo...-right-or-wrong.html

 

Shoalanda speaks is basically a local gossip rag. Some people in the community enjoy reading the "Enquirer" like blogs that are found there. Its not news by any stretch of the imagination. Just some busy body that likes to gossip and has made a (small) name for themselves by trying to ruin peoples lives and name in the area.

 

I knew she or he-figured it was she, had a little blog, but I guess I meant who the heck are they anyway and do they have a real job. I saw the comment she made on the story page. That's why I ask if she was going to "investigate" all the other people involved too.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Infomercial:

From RP ...

I read Shoalanda's article on Mr. Green and seems all she could do is pick on his education and employment.  As if Mr. Green doesn't have any rights just because she doesn't think his job or level of education makes the cut.  This is freakin' hilarious.

That seems to be the standard around here, eh?  Ain't got a valid argument? Tell 'em you're more educated than they are.

 

 

RP, I read the same article (really not sure you read it, but maybe scanned it?) and I thought the point was simply he wasn't really employed. And I've heard he lies about the MBA too. Don't know or don't really care, but if he lies about one thing which he did on his employer being Google of all companies, wouldn't he lie about something else.? Maybe not since maybe he wanted to impress girls or something. I have a neighbor with an MBA and she works two jobs. I barely have a BS and have a great job, for me, but it sure doesn't impress people as far as job title.. I see this guy as someone who wants to impress, maybe because of his past problems?

___________________________________

 

Mr. Green does work as a Search Engine Evaluator for Google. It is a legitimate job and I wish I had it.

 

It is amazing to me that Shoalanda and others have decided to attack Mr. Green personally and drag up things that have absolutely nothing to do with the school prayer issue. I see this as a way to try and draw attention away from the fact that the school system is breaking the law.

 

Seems that you and Shoalanda don't care much for the truth. You would rather just believe a lie, right? I did not know you had to have a spotless history to be able to point out illegal activity in our government. He has every right as an American citizen to file a complaint.

 

Those that are using this as their argument against the law must know they don't have a leg to stand on legally..

 

 

Dark, I'm disappointed in you. Learn to Google. I did. I don't take anything Shoalanda or anyone else says for truth until I do that or other research. She/He is right. Google DOES NOT HIRE SEARCH ENGINE EVALUATORS. At least one or two companies do hire these work at home people. I'll see if I can find it. So what else has Green lied about. Makes ya wonder.

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DefaultWhat is a Google Rater?

I was passing thru and the word GOOGLE caught my eye .   Of course I've heard of Google, but what is a Google Rater? 
Can anyone share in a few brief words what that is? Are you working for Google?
Thanks
Diane

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 157
 
DefaultTo Answer Your Question

There are a few names for this position. The companies hiring for this are Lionbridge, Leapforce and Butler Hill. I am not sure if Workforce Logic still hires for this or not. Lionbridge titles this position as an internet assessor and Leapforce titles it as Search Engine Evaluator. You do not apply with Google. These companies contract with Google and hire independent contractors. I work for Lionbridge. I enjoy the pay, but the task availability is not always steady and the work can get boring sometimes. Basically what it entails is assessing the utility of search engine results. In order to get started, you must apply and if they have openings in your area and you qualify, they will invite you to take a test. The test is long and you must study carefully. The pay is great(I cannot disclose due to confidentiality agreement), but it is hourly. It is a great way to earn a part-time income.

Let me add, other than searching and reading I have no idea what the job means but it does seem to be a real job, and seems if there is a problem such as a scam or such it is with the company some used to get the job and not google. There are plenty of unre pu table "employment" companies out there.

I was wondering too info, since it does appear the job is very real, and it turns out he does indeed do what he said he does, will shoalander print a retraction and  apology to mr. green? Plus I wonder too if maybe it could turn out he has a legal action against her? (Did we establish it was a she)?

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

 

Christians have gotten a free pass for a long time when it comes to stuff like this. They're not surrounded by just other christians anymore. It's about time, I think, that they began to realize that.  Welcome to the 00s.  People have evolved past ghosties and fairies by now.

 

Well.........Some of us have.

 

 

 

Free pass from who RP?

Fred, Fred, Freddymac, FredFredFred... you said: Sounds almost like a baited question but what the heck, I'll bite. The reason that the others are distinct from Christianity is because there is only one God and his son is Jesus so that means Christians are right and all the others are just full of crap. Excuse me for being blunt but I prefer to keep it short and simple when I can.

 

Thanks for buttressing my point, but it really wasn't necessary.  The whole point is that there are competing views of religion, each of which has both reasons (after a fashion) and faith that it is the correct one to the exclusion of all the others.

 

There is no compelling reason why Christianity is the One True Belief, in a world of dozens of major and thousands of minor beliefs.  They're all equally (in)valid!

 

Saying that your religion is the only valid one, and that all others are bogus, is simply juvenile and simple-mindedly parochial.  My dog's better than your dog (because he's my dog).  Get it?

 

There is as much reason to believe in Thor as Jesus, except for fashion.

 

 

DF

Originally Posted by lexum:

Mr green seems to have a made-up job.

He will lose in the end. I doubt if he has the dough to stay around here very long and cause trouble.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply Green had a "made up job". He just doesn't work for Google. He works for a company that hires at home workers and they sell the data to Google. Big difference. So don't say you work for Google if you don't. It doesn't make you look any smarter or more honest.

 

I hear he lives with his parents, so he's not going anywhere. Failure to launch.

And all that means what info? Nothing. Case of not liking the message so they attack (kill) the messenger. And again, what would we find if we "investigated" people on the other side of the conflict? Are they all fully employed, out on their own, upstanding people? I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

And all that means what info? Nothing. Case of not liking the message so they attack (kill) the messenger. And again, what would we find if we "investigated" people on the other side of the conflict? Are they all fully employed, out on their own, upstanding people? I doubt it.


This is my thought too.  Really, does it matter what he does for a living or what his degree is?  this is a public issue and not he-said-she said.  You can snicker at his job or laugh at where he lives all you want, but it doesn't take away the fact that he has a legitimate complaint...he isn't the only one who feels that way and it is the law.  

 

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Fred, Fred, Freddymac, FredFredFred... you said: Sounds almost like a baited question but what the heck, I'll bite. The reason that the others are distinct from Christianity is because there is only one God and his son is Jesus so that means Christians are right and all the others are just full of crap. Excuse me for being blunt but I prefer to keep it short and simple when I can.

 

Thanks for buttressing my point, but it really wasn't necessary.  The whole point is that there are competing views of religion, each of which has both reasons (after a fashion) and faith that it is the correct one to the exclusion of all the others.

 

There is no compelling reason why Christianity is the One True Belief, in a world of dozens of major and thousands of minor beliefs.  They're all equally (in)valid!

 

Saying that your religion is the only valid one, and that all others are bogus, is simply juvenile and simple-mindedly parochial.  My dog's better than your dog (because he's my dog).  Get it?

 

There is as much reason to believe in Thor as Jesus, except for fashion.

 

 

DF

My dog's not better than your dog because he's my dog, my dog's better because he's freakin awesome!! Joking aside, my dog is pretty good but you may very well have a better one.

For the God part, my God is not better because he's my God, he's better because he's the ONLY God and he's freakin awesome!!!

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

And fred, if there is another group or groups that want to "pray" their way, or chant, sing or whatever out loud that will be fine with you 

Yes, now you're finally getting it. As I had already said, I don't mind giving up the PA if it means they have to stay away from it too. As far as praying out loud in the stands, I hope that local Christians will do so and if the others want to do their version of praying during the moment of silence/reflection then that is fine too. If it gets too offensive then I would either tune them out or leave the area.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

And all that means what info? Nothing. Case of not liking the message so they attack (kill) the messenger. And again, what would we find if we "investigated" people on the other side of the conflict? Are they all fully employed, out on their own, upstanding people? I doubt it.

 

 

best, I like you, but please don't twist my words. I mentioned he lived at home in reply to Lexum. I don't think Green is going anywhere because he needs money. The employment is not important. He could be a ditch digger. Just don't lie to me and say you work on Wall St. I'll think much more of you as an honest ditch digger than someone who lies to me about it.

What is this woman who is selling t-shirts for the Christians so called "cause" doing with the profits? Anyone know? If it is purely for profit I have no problem with that. Good for her! That shows some real business suave on her part.

 

I just wish I had thought of it first.....I may still be able to get in on the action. I have a source for t-shirts that would give me a pretty good return even if I under price her by a $1! She is moving them like hot cakes.

 

Anyone want to go into business with me on this venture?

 

 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What did he lie about concerning the prayer before the ballgame? And who is shoalander? Is she/he employed?

_____________________________

 

Here ya go Best..

 

http://shoalandaspeaks.blogspo...-right-or-wrong.html

 

Shoalanda speaks is basically a local gossip rag. Some people in the community enjoy reading the "Enquirer" like blogs that are found there. Its not news by any stretch of the imagination. Just some busy body that likes to gossip and has made a (small) name for themselves by trying to ruin peoples lives and name in the area.

 

___________

She's worse than the Enquirer.  She is a mess of half-truths, innuendo, and misdirection. ©

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I was wondering too info, since it does appear the job is very real, and it turns out he does indeed do what he said he does, will shoalander print a retraction and  apology to mr. green? Plus I wonder too if maybe it could turn out he has a legal action against her? (Did we establish it was a she)?

_________

No she doesn't have to.  What she says is just snarky, not untrue.  ©

Originally Posted by _Joy_:

Is it illegal, NSNS?  If so, what law forbids praying at school functions?  Anyone who knows the answer to that, please give us a link?

===

The US Supreme Court has so far made eight separate rulings from 1952 to 2004 affirming that school-sponsored prayers (a religious activity) in public schools is a violation of the Establishment Clause and constitutionally impermissible. 60 years of Supreme Court precedents on school prayer basically asserts and re-asserts that religion can only have a sharply limited role in our public schools.

Look up: Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 2000
(in a 6-3 decision) The Court held that the policy allowing the student-led prayer at the football games was unconstitutional. The majority opinion held that the pre-game prayers delivered "on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" are not private, but public speech. "Regardless of the listener's support for, or objection to, the message, an objective Santa Fe High School student will unquestionably perceive the inevitable pregame prayer as stamped with her school's seal of approval." - Justice Stevens (a Christian, nominated by Gerald Ford)

Look up: Lee v. Weisman, 1992
"As we have observed before, there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools. Our decisions in [Engel] and [Abington] recognize, among other things, that prayer exercises in public schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. The concern may not be limited to the context of schools, but it is most pronounced there. What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy." - Justice Kennedy (a Christian, nominated by Ronald Reagan) writing for the majority

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What did he lie about concerning the prayer before the ballgame? And who is shoalander? Is she/he employed?

_____________________________

 

Here ya go Best..

 

http://shoalandaspeaks.blogspo...-right-or-wrong.html

 

Shoalanda speaks is basically a local gossip rag. Some people in the community enjoy reading the "Enquirer" like blogs that are found there. Its not news by any stretch of the imagination. Just some busy body that likes to gossip and has made a (small) name for themselves by trying to ruin peoples lives and name in the area.

 

===

The stupid irony of a secretive and anonymous person (Shoalanda) attacking the personal life of a named person, based on what's written on a FB page. What any of that has to do with Constitutional violations, I haven't a clue. It's just a pure attempt at defamation and used as a loud warning to others in the community not to stand up for what's just and legal, or else.  We are all indebted (even Christians) to Mr. Green for his courage and conviction to do what's right.

 

The last time another friend of mine contacted the FFRF to complain about another illegal act in a Florence school and chose to remain anonymous, the complainant was often attacked (in online comments) as a gutless coward. Yet all the complainant was trying to do was protect the identity of their children from the kind of vile harassment and death threats that Mr. Green is currently being subjected to.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What did he lie about concerning the prayer before the ballgame? And who is shoalander? Is she/he employed?

_____________________________

 

Here ya go Best..

 

http://shoalandaspeaks.blogspo...-right-or-wrong.html

 

Shoalanda speaks is basically a local gossip rag. Some people in the community enjoy reading the "Enquirer" like blogs that are found there. Its not news by any stretch of the imagination. Just some busy body that likes to gossip and has made a (small) name for themselves by trying to ruin peoples lives and name in the area.

 

===

The stupid irony of a secretive and anonymous person (Shoalanda) attacking the personal life of a named person, based on what's written on a FB page. What any of that has to do with Constitutional violations, I haven't a clue. It's just a pure attempt at defamation and used as a loud warning to others in the community not to stand up for what's just and legal, or else.  We are all indebted (even Christians) to Mr. Green for his courage and conviction to do what's right.

 

The last time another friend of mine contacted the FFRF to complain about another illegal act in a Florence school and chose to remain anonymous, the complainant was often attacked (in online comments) as a gutless coward. Yet all the complainant was trying to do was protect the identity of their children from the kind of vile harassment and death threats that Mr. Green is currently being subjected to.

__________________________________

 

Good point A.R. Da mned if you do and da mned if you don't.

 

It is down right scary really. If you think differently or have a dis-belief in God in this area you face the real possibility of being not only ostracized but also physically threatened.

 

Where do we live again? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Oh no thats right, we live in the free democratic country of America. For a minute there I was unsure.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

LOL what is up the the copyright symbol on your post Crusty? I love it!

__________

Glad you asked, it is actually pertinent to the current discussion.  See my thread in Miscellaneous.

©

________________

 

Ok, I went, I read, I LOL! That is hilarious Crusty.  I really hate to even bring up SS because I hate to give that witch hunt of a blog the publicity. Apparently they can't come up with their own material so they have resorted to plagiarizing others. Not surprised really.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

LOL what is up the the copyright symbol on your post Crusty? I love it!

__________

Glad you asked, it is actually pertinent to the current discussion.  See my thread in Miscellaneous.

©

________________

 

Ok, I went, I read, I LOL! That is hilarious Crusty.  I really hate to even bring up SS because I hate to give that witch hunt of a blog the publicity. Apparently they can't come up with their own material so they have resorted to plagiarizing others. Not surprised really.

 

 

Dark, I do usually like your ideas even if I don't agree but that's twice tonight you've told an untruth. That's about as bad as claiming you work at Google. SS said it was quoting a forum member and that's not plagiarizing. You know as well as I do what plagiarizing is and that's not it. It's kinda funny that Crusty and SS think alike on the hospital thing, but he's unhappy over something else and won't give them credit for having a good blog. I've read todays and they say they'll be reviewing the Brooks people tomorrow. What are you going to do when they tear them apart? Change your mind real suddenly? Admit you were wrong?

best, I like you, but please don't twist my words. I mentioned he lived at home in reply to Lexum. I don't think Green is going anywhere because he needs money. The employment is not important. He could be a ditch digger. Just don't lie to me and say you work on Wall St. I'll think much more of you as an honest ditch digger than someone who lies to me about it.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I didn't twist your words. I said they don't like the message so they want to "kill" the messenger. I also said it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of him, he's still right, and if people really wanted to dig into others lives like that I'm sure there is plenty of "dirt" to be found on them. And NO offense but I don't think there's anything mr. green could do to make you think more of him.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What did he lie about concerning the prayer before the ballgame? And who is shoalander? Is she/he employed?

_____________________________

 

Here ya go Best..

 

http://shoalandaspeaks.blogspo...-right-or-wrong.html

 

Shoalanda speaks is basically a local gossip rag. Some people in the community enjoy reading the "Enquirer" like blogs that are found there. Its not news by any stretch of the imagination. Just some busy body that likes to gossip and has made a (small) name for themselves by trying to ruin peoples lives and name in the area.

 

===

The stupid irony of a secretive and anonymous person (Shoalanda) attacking the personal life of a named person, based on what's written on a FB page. What any of that has to do with Constitutional violations, I haven't a clue. It's just a pure attempt at defamation and used as a loud warning to others in the community not to stand up for what's just and legal, or else.  We are all indebted (even Christians) to Mr. Green for his courage and conviction to do what's right.

 

The last time another friend of mine contacted the FFRF to complain about another illegal act in a Florence school and chose to remain anonymous, the complainant was often attacked (in online comments) as a gutless coward. Yet all the complainant was trying to do was protect the identity of their children from the kind of vile harassment and death threats that Mr. Green is currently being subjected to.


Pretty ironic that the very people who are staunchly protecting their right to yell prayers to God/Jesus over a PA system are harassing someone and threatening him with death

 

I am not saying at all that he is perfect (who is?) or that he is what I am using as an example, but a prostitute can be raped and a pickpocket can be mugged.  No matter who the person is or what level of society is an illegal act is still illegal and should be stopped.  I'm not saying he is anything of the sort, but attacking his character or what he does for a living (his point is legitimate) sounds pretty hateful and is irrelevant. I wonder what the same people would be saying if he would suing to pray somewhere or to put a Nativity set in the downtown park?  I would bet he would be a courageous Christian then.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What did he lie about concerning the prayer before the ballgame? And who is shoalander? Is she/he employed?

_____________________________

 

Here ya go Best..

 

http://shoalandaspeaks.blogspo...-right-or-wrong.html

 

Shoalanda speaks is basically a local gossip rag. Some people in the community enjoy reading the "Enquirer" like blogs that are found there. Its not news by any stretch of the imagination. Just some busy body that likes to gossip and has made a (small) name for themselves by trying to ruin peoples lives and name in the area.

 

===

The stupid irony of a secretive and anonymous person (Shoalanda) attacking the personal life of a named person, based on what's written on a FB page. What any of that has to do with Constitutional violations, I haven't a clue. It's just a pure attempt at defamation and used as a loud warning to others in the community not to stand up for what's just and legal, or else.  We are all indebted (even Christians) to Mr. Green for his courage and conviction to do what's right.

 

The last time another friend of mine contacted the FFRF to complain about another illegal act in a Florence school and chose to remain anonymous, the complainant was often attacked (in online comments) as a gutless coward. Yet all the complainant was trying to do was protect the identity of their children from the kind of vile harassment and death threats that Mr. Green is currently being subjected to.

__________________________________

 

Good point A.R. Da mned if you do and da mned if you don't.

 

It is down right scary really. If you think differently or have a dis-belief in God in this area you face the real possibility of being not only ostracized but also physically threatened.

 

Where do we live again? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Oh no thats right, we live in the free democratic country of America. For a minute there I was unsure.


It is scary and what i was saying about discrimination.  It's also another argument for separation of church and state.  Wouldn't it be awful if you happened to be a different faith (or no religion) and knew you couldn't come out and say that to many people in your community?

 

Oh wait.....hmmm.  

I just thought I would mention that when a person is technically employed by a temp company or a contractor that isn't a big one (such as hired through a company to do work for another one that s/he works with instead of the one that actually hired him) it is common to associate your job with that big company.

 

I worked for a temp agency for a couple of years technically, but I worked at a major telecomm in security.  Now technically I was hired by the temp place, but I hardly saw them, worked directly with the telecomm people, and if asked I said I worked in ........... security.  I did in my view and although I was hired through the other place I didn't think of them most of the time unless they decided to be annoying..lol.

 

So although he may technically work for that other company, he apparently does work for Google perhaps?  Anyway, I'm not saying he needs to be saying he works for Google, but that perhaps he wasn't deliberately trying to lie.  I have no idea and realize it isn't exactly the same thing, but I am just saying it doesn't make him an evil liar necessarily if he does work for Google...not sure how much sense I made there, but no one I knew who worked for the temp agency (my job wasn't a temp job) said, "I work for x temp agency".  We weren't lying, but we worked for the telecomm in our minds...I never really thought of anyone thinking that was a lie since it wasn't.  They hired the agency to fill those positions, so they did indirectly pay the salary and the work was for them.

 I wonder what the same people would be saying if he would suing to pray somewhere or to put a Nativity set in the downtown park?  I would bet he would be a courageous Christian

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yes, they would be behind him all the way and the description would be a young man, struggling to make a living in this economy, forced to live with his parents until things turn around for him, blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by frog:

I just thought I would mention that when a person is technically employed by a temp company or a contractor that isn't a big one (such as hired through a company to do work for another one that s/he works with instead of the one that actually hired him) it is common to associate your job with that big company.

 

I worked for a temp agency for a couple of years technically, but I worked at a major telecomm in security.  Now technically I was hired by the temp place, but I hardly saw them, worked directly with the telecomm people, and if asked I said I worked in ........... security.  I did in my view and although I was hired through the other place I didn't think of them most of the time unless they decided to be annoying..lol.

 

So although he may technically work for that other company, he apparently does work for Google perhaps?  Anyway, I'm not saying he needs to be saying he works for Google, but that perhaps he wasn't deliberately trying to lie.  I have no idea and realize it isn't exactly the same thing, but I am just saying it doesn't make him an evil liar necessarily if he does work for Google...not sure how much sense I made there, but no one I knew who worked for the temp agency (my job wasn't a temp job) said, "I work for x temp agency".  We weren't lying, but we worked for the telecomm in our minds...I never really thought of anyone thinking that was a lie since it wasn't.  They hired the agency to fill those positions, so they did indirectly pay the salary and the work was for them.

=====================

I know what you're saying frog but too many people make this more complicated

than it is. You technically work for the place that hires you. The temp company

is just a waiting room to stage people after the drug screen, medical history,

felony reports and other stuff the big company doesn't want to do.

Hiring and firing is easier and less expence this way. Less personal.

 

True, VIC.  I guess it's more exciting the way it's being portrayed though...lol.  If I had said I worked for x temp company that wouldn't have represented what I did.  I worked for the telecomm for I believe 2 years and became supervisor of the little security group there.  Saying I worked for the telecomm was more accurate.  I have no idea on this person, but saying you work for an obscure online hiring company doesn't help people know what you do.  If the guy does the Google search engine work than who cares who hired him?  It isn't as if he made it up and doesn't have a job.

 

And who cares where he lives?  That has nothing to do with the suit.

I've read todays and they say they'll be reviewing the Brooks people tomorrow. What are you going to do when they tear them apart? Change your mind real suddenly? Admit you were wrong?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Info, I'm missing something. Where does it say they're "reviewing" the Brooks people? What Brooks people? I looked and it's the same thing that's been on there for the last two days. As far as it being a good blog, it looks just like a "comment" site to me, something anyone could do.  So OK, what am I missing?

 

Originally Posted by Infomercial:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

LOL what is up the the copyright symbol on your post Crusty? I love it!

__________

Glad you asked, it is actually pertinent to the current discussion.  See my thread in Miscellaneous.

©

________________

 

Ok, I went, I read, I LOL! That is hilarious Crusty.  I really hate to even bring up SS because I hate to give that witch hunt of a blog the publicity. Apparently they can't come up with their own material so they have resorted to plagiarizing others. Not surprised really.

 

 

Dark, I do usually like your ideas even if I don't agree but that's twice tonight you've told an untruth. That's about as bad as claiming you work at Google. SS said it was quoting a forum member and that's not plagiarizing. You know as well as I do what plagiarizing is and that's not it. It's kinda funny that Crusty and SS think alike on the hospital thing, but he's unhappy over something else and won't give them credit for having a good blog. I've read todays and they say they'll be reviewing the Brooks people tomorrow. What are you going to do when they tear them apart? Change your mind real suddenly? Admit you were wrong?

__________________________

 

Actually I was only going on what Crusty said and from the re****tion SS has. If SS actually did give credit then I do retract the plagiarizing statement. However, I will feel the same way about SS no matter what they have to say about the Brooks group. My opinion of SS was formed long ago and I don't see it changing. Why does SS feel the need to "tear apart" anyone?

 

Also, I had no idea what it was that Crusty was saying they used of his in the blog. Seems you have a lot of knowledge of the goings on over there at SS. That is very interesting.  Me and Crusty are of the same opinion when it comes to SS. I don't give them credit for being a "good blog" either. It is nothing more than a gossip blog and not a very good one at that. My opinion of SS didn't start with this personal attack on Mr. Green.

Originally Posted by Infomercial:

 

 

You know as well as I do what plagiarizing is and that's not it. It's kinda funny that Crusty and SS think alike on the hospital thing, but he's unhappy over something else and won't give them credit for having a good blog. I've read todays and they say they'll be reviewing the Brooks people tomorrow. What are you going to do when they tear them apart? Change your mind real suddenly? Admit you were wrong?

_______________

 

Just to set the record straight, so there is no misunderstanding:  Shoalanda's blog is the worst kind of gossip, half-truths, innuendo, and misdirection.  Shaolanda is a hack, and just because she gets something right on occasion makes her no more credible than a street corner huckster.  ©

Originally Posted by frog:

Who are they supposed to be tearing apart?  I am confused again...lol.

_________________

 

The Christians that have formed a facebook group called "Brooks Lions will Pray" They are the ones that have been the most vocal about the issue and are selling t-shirts to fund their cause to keep breaking the law and have prayer at the football games.

 

They have all decided to band together, regardless of denomination, and work for a cause. Which would be awesome if they were actually using their power and money for something worthwhile like feeding the hungry in our area or putting coats on the backs of children this winter. That is what Mr. Green is doing right now. He has been having a food and coat drive for a couple of months now. Instead they plan on using the money they raise to pay for a lawyer.

I agree Crusty. The whole thing just stinks. Reeks really. She also keeps insinuating that he (Mr. Green) was forced or coerced into doing this by more prominent members of the community. I wonder who she will target next with her blog? As I said I did not care for her tactics before this and I have no reason to change my mind about her even if she uses the same kind of nastiness towards the Brooks prayer group.

 

What Mr. Green did was use his rights as an American to file a complaint or grevience. Now he is being called a liar, a criminal and a patsy by someone that is too much of a coward to use her real name as she does so.

Now everyone knows about it.

 

Religion - US
Atheist Group Tries to Stop Prayers at High School Football Games That Include ‘Jesus’

By Todd Starnes
Published October 26, 2011
| FoxNews.com

An Alabama school district has been accused of allowing prayers that invoke the name of Jesus during high school football games, according to a complaint filed by a national atheist organization.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation said the Lauderdale County school district has violated the First Amendment by allowing the prayers at Brooks High School.

School superintendent Bill Valentine confirmed to Fox News that he had received the complaint.

“We’ve referred that complaint to our attorney and we are in the process of reviewing it,” he said.

The complaint was lodged by a single resident who objected to the student-led prayer before high school football games played on school property.

The Times Daily newspaper identified the complainant as Jeremy Green. In an email to the newspaper, Green said he was taking a stand for the so-called “separation of church and state in an effort to protect the constitutional rights of the non-religious.”

“It is not the job of the public school system to endorse religion,” he wrote.

Valentine said that to his knowledge, no one has ever lodged a complaint with the school system about the prayers.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a similar complaint against a school in Arab, Ala. That school decided to end pregame prayers and instead offer a moment of silence.

Valentine said they haven’t made any decision about prayers for Friday night’s football game.

He said the complaint has generated lots of telephone calls – mostly in support of keeping the prayers. He added that most callers have been understanding and “seem to appreciate the quandary we find ourselves in.”

Lauderdale County has about 8,600 students enrolled in public schools and Valentine said the community has a very active religious community.

Among those is David McKelvey, pastor of the nearby First Baptist Church, Killen. He discussed the controversy during his Sunday sermon.

“It’s very sad,” McKelvey told Fox News. “I would think that any other prayer from another religion would not receive this kind of negativity.”

McKelvey said he’s attended football games when students deliver prayer and to his knowledge they have always been benign – mostly prayers for the players, the coaches, the referees and the fans.

“They are in the Christian context with the student ending the prayer in Jesus’ name,” he said.

The pastor called the complaint “unfortunate” but not surprising. Christianity, he said, is under attack.

“It’s going on all over the place,” he said. “You just hate for it to be coming to your doorstep.”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011...clude/#ixzz1bzjoYwR8

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by frog:

Who are they supposed to be tearing apart?  I am confused again...lol.

_________________

 

The Christians that have formed a facebook group called "Brooks Lions will Pray" They are the ones that have been the most vocal about the issue and are selling t-shirts to fund their cause to keep breaking the law and have prayer at the football games.

 

They have all decided to band together, regardless of denomination, and work for a cause. Which would be awesome if they were actually using their power and money for something worthwhile like feeding the hungry in our area or putting coats on the backs of children this winter. That is what Mr. Green is doing right now. He has been having a food and coat drive for a couple of months now. Instead they plan on using the money they raise to pay for a lawyer.


I think that says a lot about the situation and those involved.  T-shirts to fund having one philosophy, illegal, forced upon anyone who decides to come see a football game.  Your point is good, too.  Funny no one in favor of the prayers happened to mention he (the supposed liar who lives with his mother or whatever) has been having the food and coat drive and they are raising funds for a lawyer.  Interesting...I wonder what Jesus would say about that?

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

I agree Crusty. The whole thing just stinks. Reeks really. She also keeps insinuating that he (Mr. Green) was forced or coerced into doing this by more prominent members of the community. I wonder who she will target next with her blog? As I said I did not care for her tactics before this and I have no reason to change my mind about her even if she uses the same kind of nastiness towards the Brooks prayer group.

 

What Mr. Green did was use his rights as an American to file a complaint or grevience. Now he is being called a liar, a criminal and a patsy by someone that is too much of a coward to use her real name as she does so.


Hmm...that doesn't sound very Christian to me either personally.

My problem with this is that Mr. Green, and many like him, just want attention, and they want to use the power of the courts to force their will upon others.  Why should a majority not have its way?  What does a simple publically voiced prayer hurt?  I can understand his disbelief and will respect it, however it should not mean that the ideas of a small minority should affect the actions of so many.  He does not want the public access of the prayergiver executed by the school, yet I assure you he would likely.have no problem with our tax dollars supplementing a gay rights parade, or a federal supported abortion clinic.

No, Mr. Green is an attention *****.  One who like so many others in our nation today feels like he best represents the opressed and downtrodden.  I don't believe in the tooth fairy, yet I am not out making a statement against him, or her.  I don't beleive in Santa Claus, yet you do not hear of me going before the town council and attempting to have him thrown from the parade.  God forbid we get started on beliefs about the Easter Bunny.  Yet I do believe in God, it is my right to do so, and to pray if I wish.  If a majority is joined together and wishes to execute that right, one person should not prevent them from doing so. The spoken prayer of a young man or woman at a ball game is not going to destroy the atheist movement.  Mr. Green will likely win his crusade against the church in regards to the LCHS, but his long term gains may be more than he is bargaining for.  My question to Mr. Green is that what if I am wrong and there is no God, what have I lost?  Compared to him and if he is wrong, and there is a God? what does he lose?

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

America is sliding down a slippery slope from which it may not recover, all because of liberalism, anti-Christian court rulings and minority (pick one)-held beliefs becoming the norm, rather than the rule. Collectively, America has asked....no, BEGGED....for it for the past 40 years. She may very well choke on it.


After all, this is your America and not anyone else's unless they agree with you completely.  So I guess it is only fair that you should get to decide personally what everyone else in your whole country gets to do.

 

 

Isn't this EXACTLY what the aetheist and Muslims are doing? WHY is it OK for THEM...but NOT for Christians? WHat about OUR rights?

If he only wanted attention I'm sure there are plenty of better ways to get it besides kicking over a "fire ant" hill called religion. If you have to ask what it "hurts" you probably won't accept any answer. You may respect his disbelief on the one hand but on the other you think it should be kept to himself. Kinda the same thing atheists think about the christian's belief isn't it?

What about your rights dog? Which ones have you lost? You lump atheists and muslims together and completely ignore the question I ask you earlier about who you feel is changing this country. How do you feel about other christians taking away your "rights", or at the very least thumbing their noses at our laws?

Originally Posted by b50m:

Now everyone knows about it.

 

Religion - US
Atheist Group Tries to Stop Prayers at High School Football Games That Include ‘Jesus’

By Todd Starnes
Published October 26, 2011
| FoxNews.com

An Alabama school district has been accused of allowing prayers that invoke the name of Jesus during high school football games, according to a complaint filed by a national atheist organization.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation said the Lauderdale County school district has violated the First Amendment by allowing the prayers at Brooks High School.

School superintendent Bill Valentine confirmed to Fox News that he had received the complaint.

“We’ve referred that complaint to our attorney and we are in the process of reviewing it,” he said.

The complaint was lodged by a single resident who objected to the student-led prayer before high school football games played on school property.

The Times Daily newspaper identified the complainant as Jeremy Green. In an email to the newspaper, Green said he was taking a stand for the so-called “separation of church and state in an effort to protect the constitutional rights of the non-religious.”

“It is not the job of the public school system to endorse religion,” he wrote.

Valentine said that to his knowledge, no one has ever lodged a complaint with the school system about the prayers.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a similar complaint against a school in Arab, Ala. That school decided to end pregame prayers and instead offer a moment of silence.

Valentine said they haven’t made any decision about prayers for Friday night’s football game.

He said the complaint has generated lots of telephone calls – mostly in support of keeping the prayers. He added that most callers have been understanding and “seem to appreciate the quandary we find ourselves in.”

Lauderdale County has about 8,600 students enrolled in public schools and Valentine said the community has a very active religious community.

Among those is David McKelvey, pastor of the nearby First Baptist Church, Killen. He discussed the controversy during his Sunday sermon.

“It’s very sad,” McKelvey told Fox News. “I would think that any other prayer from another religion would not receive this kind of negativity.”

McKelvey said he’s attended football games when students deliver prayer and to his knowledge they have always been benign – mostly prayers for the players, the coaches, the referees and the fans.

“They are in the Christian context with the student ending the prayer in Jesus’ name,” he said.

The pastor called the complaint “unfortunate” but not surprising. Christianity, he said, is under attack.

“It’s going on all over the place,” he said. “You just hate for it to be coming to your doorstep.”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011...clude/#ixzz1bzjoYwR8

 

 

 

 


It is sad, but not for the reason the pastor thinks.  So he thinks that if Islamic prayers, specifically Catholic ones even, UU or Humanist, Hindu, or some other prayers were said instead that there would be hugging and happiness all over?  They are benign to him because that is his faith and the idea is totally reasonable and pleasant to him.  Christianity is under attack because they can't yell prayers over a loudspeaker?  Okay...lol.  

 

The reality is that there are more than just that one person who didn't care for the prayers...I didn't even when I was Christian for the same reasons I don't now, but to speak up and say how a person feels does bring on attacks and character assassination.  I think that is rather obvious from this situation and the reactions the man Green has received.  It isn't that Christianity is under attack, but that finally the people who don't happen to want Christianity to be state or country-sponsored are beginning to speak up.  It's that finally there is opportunity for all groups to be treated fairly...well, sort of I guess.  Not really since this person is being attacked.  

 

You know, when my kids were in kindergarten at a public school here the teacher used to sing Christian songs with the class and made a fairly big deal of it.  I didn't hear about it until school was over, and when my husband mentioned it I asked why he didn't tell me before.  He said he knew I would speak to her about it and he didn't want our daughter treated badly because the teacher (a wonderful teacher) was very religious and he was afraid for the other kids to report to their parents why they couldn't sing church songs any more.  Seriously...this is in Florence City Schools and not a private school.  She came home one day asking me why the teacher (who was very nice to her) and whispered in her ear a few times that Jesus loved her.  Where did that come into the lesson plan?  

 

We used it to explain different people believe differently and surely she was trying to be nice, but she said she told her she didn't believe in Jesus and the teacher corrected her.  She came home confused as to why her teacher would do that.  It was at the very end of the year, but really if I had gone down there to ask her to refrain from that do you bet she would have thought teh same of me or my kids?

 

And this year there is a Bible quote hanging in the room.  I know that if I speak up and ask why it is there my child may be treated differently, and I know this from experience.  I don't see anyone laughing at or teasing the kids for being Christian, but I do see it for kids who aren't.  I know of a mother who had to take her child out and homeschool her because she was taunted by the other students (not FCS but this area) because the child is Wiccan.  The teachers and principal didn't use the opportunity to teach the kids about bullying and tolerance or firmly stop the bullying, so the parent had to quit her job to stay home with her child.  It's just that this Green person had the guts to  speak up is the problem that some have with him, and look at his life now.  Who is being persecuted?

Then please explain it to me so I can understand.  How is Mr. Green's "rights" being trod upon by a simple vocalization of prayer to a God in which he does not believe, in a forum full of people who do believe?  How is he being traumatized or hurt in any way?

If I went to a ball game, where 1000 devil worshippers, or Muslims, or any other group, and they led a vocal prayer to some diety in which I did not believe, nor support, how am I damaged by this?

unless of course, deep down Mr. Green may question his disbelief and feels compelled that others should feel as he does in order for him to feel better about himself.  It is ridiculous and a waste of the court's time and money to even pursue this non-sense.  Local municipalites should be left to their own to decide how they wish to live.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

America is sliding down a slippery slope from which it may not recover, all because of liberalism, anti-Christian court rulings and minority (pick one)-held beliefs becoming the norm, rather than the rule. Collectively, America has asked....no, BEGGED....for it for the past 40 years. She may very well choke on it.


After all, this is your America and not anyone else's unless they agree with you completely.  So I guess it is only fair that you should get to decide personally what everyone else in your whole country gets to do.

 

 

Isn't this EXACTLY what the aetheist and Muslims are doing? WHY is it OK for THEM...but NOT for Christians? WHat about OUR rights?


Oh, you have had your rights forever and if you had your way all the minorities and anyone but white Christian males would be silenced.  All anyone is asking is for equality, but to you that feels threatening because you haven't had to be fair or equal up until now.  No one is telling you not to pray and you know that.  It isn't a small minority, and if we always went by majority preference blacks would be sitting in a different bus and not considered a person, women wouldn't be voting, and this country would be a completely difference place.  Perhaps the country you feel it should be, but not the one everyone else feels it should be...others' opinions and beliefs count too.

The law is the law. It doesn't change to favor your point of view just because you don't like it. Mr. Green will win. Brooks HS and others will lose. No amount of misinformation, ignorant hyperbole and threats from theocratic nutjobs will change that. Brooks and other Lauderdale county schools will have moments of silence replacing official prayers in order to return to compliance with the law. Get used to it. City schools won't be far behind them.

 

Should Brooks or private individuals decide to pursue this matter legally they will be spanked and shown their place. In the process, they'll create even more precedent to bolster the Constitutional mandate of separation of state and church, making it easier for future Mr. Greens. Like I said, get used to it. Eventually, modernity catches up with us in the South and it affects the way we do things. This will be yet another lesson learned (but resented as usual).

Originally Posted by teyates:

My problem with this is that Mr. Green, and many like him, just want attention, and they want to use the power of the courts to force their will upon others.  Why should a majority not have its way?  What does a simple publically voiced prayer hurt?  I can understand his disbelief and will respect it, however it should not mean that the ideas of a small minority should affect the actions of so many.  He does not want the public access of the prayergiver executed by the school, yet I assure you he would likely.have no problem with our tax dollars supplementing a gay rights parade, or a federal supported abortion clinic.

 

You are right.  Many do want to use the power of courts to force their will upon others.  Look at the voting rights bills being drawn up now and the abortion bills, too.  You are right there, but you might not want to use that argument when this is being done by your own group all over the country right now.  What does a moment of silence hurt?  Forcing the will of the majority on civil rights or religious issues gets you sharia law, so I don't think you want that.


You don't respect it or you wouldn't say your way is the right way.  Tax dollars aren't funding gay rights parades or abortions, and the funding goes for other health care services for poor women.  Look it up!  It sounds good to say those things, but they aren't true.  You aren't paying for anyone's abortions and you haven't been.  

No, Mr. Green is an attention *****.  One who like so many others in our nation today feels like he best represents the opressed and downtrodden.  I don't believe in the tooth fairy, yet I am not out making a statement against him, or her.  I don't beleive in Santa Claus, yet you do not hear of me going before the town council and attempting to have him thrown from the parade.  God forbid we get started on beliefs about the Easter Bunny.  Yet I do believe in God, it is my right to do so, and to pray if I wish.  If a majority is joined together and wishes to execute that right, one person should not prevent them from doing so. The spoken prayer of a young man or woman at a ball game is not going to destroy the atheist movement.  Mr. Green will likely win his crusade against the church in regards to the LCHS, but his long term gains may be more than he is bargaining for.  My question to Mr. Green is that what if I am wrong and there is no God, what have I lost?  Compared to him and if he is wrong, and there is a God? what does he lose?


No one is broadcasting prayers to the tooth fairy at a school event over the PA system, so this isn't the same issue, and Christmas Parades aren't public school events.  Once again...no one said you can't pray.  No one said any moment would be destroyed and this really isn't just about atheists.  

 

This isn't about your beliefs or his either.  It isn't up to you what happens to his soul, and when I was Christian I didn't agree with the PA prayers either...it isn't even about believing really.  It's about treating others with respect and being fair to all..and the law.  Why do you even ask the questions in the last bolded part?  This isn't about you praying, him praying, or atheists.  It's about praying prayers over a loudspeaker at a school event.  Would you be as thrilled about the idea if it were Islamic or some other groups' prayers?  No, it is because it's the system to which you happen to be part.  What he loses or gains isn't even part of this topic.  No one said you can't pray all day if you like.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

The law is the law. It doesn't change to favor your point of view just because you don't like it. Mr. Green will win. Brooks HS and others will lose. No amount of misinformation, ignorant hyperbole and threats from theocratic nutjobs will change that. Brooks and other Lauderdale county schools will have moments of silence replacing official prayers in order to return to compliance with the law. Get used to it. City schools won't be far behind them.

 

Should Brooks or private individuals decide to pursue this matter legally they will be spanked and shown their place. In the process, they'll create even more precedent to bolster the Constitutional mandate of separation of state and church, making it easier for future Mr. Greens. Like I said, get used to it. Eventually, modernity catches up with us in the South and it affects the way we do things. This will be yet another lesson learned (but resented as usual).


Well said, although I personally wouldn't call anyone a nutjob...well, not often, anyway.

Originally Posted by teyates:

Then please explain it to me so I can understand.  How is Mr. Green's "rights" being trod upon by a simple vocalization of prayer to a God in which he does not believe, in a forum full of people who do believe?  How is he being traumatized or hurt in any way?

If I went to a ball game, where 1000 devil worshippers, or Muslims, or any other group, and they led a vocal prayer to some diety in which I did not believe, nor support, how am I damaged by this?

unless of course, deep down Mr. Green may question his disbelief and feels compelled that others should feel as he does in order for him to feel better about himself.  It is ridiculous and a waste of the court's time and money to even pursue this non-sense.  Local municipalites should be left to their own to decide how they wish to live.


The point isn't how deep his beliefs are...lol.  So I guess you are saying that when we decide that there are lots more Islamic people here than Christians we can start having Islamic prayers before games?  Or maybe a Wiccan ritual?  Hmm...whatever the Norse religious believers want to pray or say instead of your choice?  You would really be okay with that?

 

If so then why does the idea of a moment of silence so all who wish to pray can, all who wish to send positive energy, think, focus, or relax can all do so bother you so much?  How about the people in charge just acknowledge it isn't legal and stop the public yelled prayers?  No charge for defending it and all views are respected.  If you truly don't mind if another group would speak or pray, then a moment of silence so you can pray could work just as well I would think.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

The law is the law. It doesn't change to favor your point of view just because you don't like it. Mr. Green will win. Brooks HS and others will lose. No amount of misinformation, ignorant hyperbole and threats from theocratic nutjobs will change that. Brooks and other Lauderdale county schools will have moments of silence replacing official prayers in order to return to compliance with the law. Get used to it. City schools won't be far behind them.

 

Should Brooks or private individuals decide to pursue this matter legally they will be spanked and shown their place. In the process, they'll create even more precedent to bolster the Constitutional mandate of separation of state and church, making it easier for future Mr. Greens. Like I said, get used to it. Eventually, modernity catches up with us in the South and it affects the way we do things. This will be yet another lesson learned (but resented as usual).


Well said, although I personally wouldn't call anyone a nutjob...well, not often, anyway.

===

You must not be aware of the craziness and threats that have been slung toward Mr. Green. It is really a sad reminder of some of the people we share our community with. When secularists call these idiots out as examples of the failures of Christendom, we get refuted that they're not possibly Christian, just nutjobs. I think some are both.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

The law is the law. It doesn't change to favor your point of view just because you don't like it. Mr. Green will win. Brooks HS and others will lose. No amount of misinformation, ignorant hyperbole and threats from theocratic nutjobs will change that. Brooks and other Lauderdale county schools will have moments of silence replacing official prayers in order to return to compliance with the law. Get used to it. City schools won't be far behind them.

 

Should Brooks or private individuals decide to pursue this matter legally they will be spanked and shown their place. In the process, they'll create even more precedent to bolster the Constitutional mandate of separation of state and church, making it easier for future Mr. Greens. Like I said, get used to it. Eventually, modernity catches up with us in the South and it affects the way we do things. This will be yet another lesson learned (but resented as usual).


Well said, although I personally wouldn't call anyone a nutjob...well, not often, anyway.

===

You must not be aware of the craziness and threats that have been slung toward Mr. Green. It is really a sad reminder of some of the people we share our community with. When secularists call these idiots out as examples of the failures of Christendom, we get refuted that they're not possibly Christian, just nutjobs. I think some are both.


Good point.  I'm not totally aware of all of it, but you have a point there.  

Christianity, sadly, does not hold the honor of being the only group who is filled with nutjobs and zealots, as evidenced by this man's actions, and those who hold him in reverence.  I am not condoning the actions of either group, just simply pointing out that Mr. Green had nothing to fear from the vocal prayers at the school, and his actions are a ferverent display of someone who is either looking for attention or feels threatened by his Christian neighbors prayers to a God in whom he says he does not believe, 

Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

 

Christians have gotten a free pass for a long time when it comes to stuff like this. They're not surrounded by just other christians anymore. It's about time, I think, that they began to realize that.  Welcome to the 00s.  People have evolved past ghosties and fairies by now.

 

Well.........Some of us have.

 

 

 

Free pass from who RP?

Heh. Fr such a self-proclaimed smart guy, buf...Ya sure haven't been following too closely.

 

The free pass is from other christians who happen to be either in local positions of authority such as councilpersons, mayors, school officials (Oh! and did I mention atall the 'every other guy who claims to be a freakin' preacher?').

 

It's OK to do whatever ya wanna when you're surrounded by like-minded people. What they're doing becomes 'normal' after awhile because...well, heck....it's been done that way for as long as any like-minded body can remember.

 

The times, they are a-changin'....

 

Originally Posted by teyates:

Christianity, sadly, does not hold the honor of being the only group who is filled with nutjobs and zealots, as evidenced by this man's actions, and those who hold him in reverence.  I am not condoning the actions of either group, just simply pointing out that Mr. Green had nothing to fear from the vocal prayers at the school, and his actions are a ferverent display of someone who is either looking for attention or feels threatened by his Christian neighbors prayers to a God in whom he says he does not believe, 


You are absolutely right that "nut jobs" come in all flavors

 

I don't think he is held in reverence, but I do appreciate that he did speak up.  He probably wasn't afraid of the prayers, just as I'm sure you wouldn't be afraid of a moment of silence.  The issue here that creates the problem is in my opinion shown by your bolded section.  Your refusal or inability to accept the fact that this man or other people might not feel threatened at all, but be just tired of having one group praying over a PA system when it is illegal to do that at a public school event.  The suit doesn't have anything to do with him liking or not liking anyone, nor does this make him a zealot or an attention seeker.  It makes him a citizen of the US who decided something was illegal and had enough of not speaking up.  It doesn't mean he feels threatened...or maybe he does and should.

 

If it's okay for one religious group to ignore the law and yell it over a loudspeaker perhaps there is something to be threatened about...it says actually that this particular group can get away with ignoring the law.  But that aside, if he were trying to get official pray groups into schools I wonder how many of these same people would be calling him a zealot?  Would he then be a brave Christian?

 

What if he (or I or anyone else) decided to start a tradition of saying before each game over the same PA system something like, "Just a reminder that there is no God and that whatever happens during this game is related to skill, lack of it, or luck.  So in the name of all that is reasonable I ask you all to not pray to your God, but instead to focus on the game while you all treat each other with respect and kindness. Of course we hope no one is injured tonight and that all play a fair game.  Thank you."

 

Is that okay?  It won't threaten your firm beliefs, so I sincerely ask you if that would be okay with you?  It will be said before all sporting events and all official school events over a loudspeaker, by the way, but it won't damage you or shake your faith if you truly believe in God.  Is that okay with you?  No Christian prayers will be said, but variations on this speech will be.

Christianity, sadly, does not hold the honor of being the only group who is filled with nutjobs and zealots, as evidenced by this man's actions, and those who hold him in reverence.  I am not condoning the actions of either group, just simply pointing out that Mr. Green had nothing to fear from the vocal prayers at the school, and his actions are a ferverent display of someone who is either looking for attention or feels threatened by his Christian neighbors prayers to a God in whom he says he does not believe,

 

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What in the world has this man done for you to label him a "nutjob"?  Who holds him in reverence? I don't know him personally, I might or might not like him if I met him. And again, who would want the kind of "attention" everyone knows you get when you go up against the sacred cow called religion?? And that hint that deep down he might believe is just like an ex-boyfriend or ex-girlfriend stalking their ex and yelling "stop this! Why are you doing this?" "You know you still love me"! Why does he have to be conflicted to oppose a group breaking the law? And which laws are we allowed to break? Can we pick and choose?  I want to park in one of those always empty handicapped parking spots. Why can't I do that? Who would I be hurting? And once more I will ask, why the prayers anyway? You're there to see a ballgame, not, as RP pointed out, in church. Are christians so afraid and conflicted that they have to pray every time the wind blows? What would happen if you didn't pray at a sporting event? Would your god strike you down or punish the kids on the field?

I would not have a problem with you doing that.  I would sit there with a smirk on my face and relish in your ignorance, but would have no desire to run to my local attorney and have an injunction filed because I felt threatened by your actions.  As I see it, I am firm in my beliefs and secure in what I believe, so much so that if I hear prayers from a Muslim cleric I do not feel threatened by them, no more than i would be if I walked into a Wiccan ceremony or a bunch of Devil worshippers.  My point is that Mr. Green, and his lackies (of which you are since you promote his agenda) think that you have acheived some great victory over the Christians who are trying to take away your freedoms.  You have done no such thing.  In reality, a moment of silence is fine with me, I have a problem with your liberal ideals and the hypocrisy of a group that finds it is OK to suppress one groups public speaking because you feel threatened by them.

It is OK to say you are scared....the first step to solving your problem is admitting you have one.....lol.

Perhaps when the whole stadium breaks into a prayer, which will certainly be much louder and more heartfelt than a simple person's attempt to acknowledge God, Mr. Green can live with the fact that he probably did more for Christianity in the community than if he would have just kept his mouth shut, sat there, and smirked......lol.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Christianity, sadly, does not hold the honor of being the only group who is filled with nutjobs and zealots, as evidenced by this man's actions, and those who hold him in reverence.  I am not condoning the actions of either group, just simply pointing out that Mr. Green had nothing to fear from the vocal prayers at the school, and his actions are a ferverent display of someone who is either looking for attention or feels threatened by his Christian neighbors prayers to a God in whom he says he does not believe,

 

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What in the world has this man done for you to label him a "nutjob"?  Who holds him in reverence? I don't know him personally, I might or might not like him if I met him. And again, who would want the kind of "attention" everyone knows you get when you go up against the sacred cow called religion?? And that hint that deep down he might believe is just like an ex-boyfriend or ex-girlfriend stalking their ex and yelling "stop this! Why are you doing this?" "You know you still love me"! Why does he have to be conflicted to oppose a group breaking the law? And which laws are we allowed to break? Can we pick and choose?  I want to park in one of those always empty handicapped parking spots. Why can't I do that? Who would I be hurting? And once more I will ask, why the prayers anyway? You're there to see a ballgame, not, as RP pointed out, in church. Are christians so afraid and conflicted that they have to pray every time the wind blows? What would happen if you didn't pray at a sporting event? Would your god strike you down or punish the kids on the field?


Well said, Best.

Its OK, I think Don Quixote was a "nut job" also.  He went around jousting at windmills.  Something that should have been no threat to him but he was "feeling pressured" I guess.  To each his own, but anyone who thinks that Mr. Green's action is going to suppress or calm Christianity in this region is nothing more than a Don Quixote.  He has a right to his beliefs, and I stand by the fact that he is evidently not to secure in them if he is threatened by a public prayer.

And I stand by the statement that christians must be very insecure too if they feel they have to pray everywhere they go. And you are the type that would call the cops so fast it would make my head spin if you saw me or anyone else park in a handicapped spot. I don't know what mr. green's "agenda" is IF he even has one, but yes, I stand by his right to complain when laws are broken. A victory over christians? How do you figure? There are plenty of christians that agree with atheists on this.

Originally Posted by teyates:

I would not have a problem with you doing that.  I would sit there with a smirk on my face and relish in your ignorance, but would have no desire to run to my local attorney and have an injunction filed because I felt threatened by your actions.  As I see it, I am firm in my beliefs and secure in what I believe, so much so that if I hear prayers from a Muslim cleric I do not feel threatened by them, no more than i would be if I walked into a Wiccan ceremony or a bunch of Devil worshippers.  My point is that Mr. Green, and his lackies (of which you are since you promote his agenda) think that you have acheived some great victory over the Christians who are trying to take away your freedoms.  You have done no such thing.  In reality, a moment of silence is fine with me, I have a problem with your liberal ideals and the hypocrisy of a group that finds it is OK to suppress one groups public speaking because you feel threatened by them.

It is OK to say you are scared....the first step to solving your problem is admitting you have one.....lol.

Perhaps when the whole stadium breaks into a prayer, which will certainly be much louder and more heartfelt than a simple person's attempt to acknowledge God, Mr. Green can live with the fact that he probably did more for Christianity in the community than if he would have just kept his mouth shut, sat there, and smirked......lol.


I am not anyone's lackey, and the people who support the separation of church and state aren't his lackeys either.  I would say most people who would like to see the moment of silence aren't trying to get one over on anyone, but I can't speak for other people's motives.

 

I have a problem with any group who feels the need to broadcast their prayer over a PA at school events that aren't prayer meetings and no one group is represented, and oh..and when that is illegal.  You can dislike my liberal ideals all you want, but ironically the views that liberal people hold protect your right to pray as well as my right not to have any religion become a state religion.  Liberals generally don't want religion abolished or forbidden, but simply not to have one religion be the preferred one.  I understand that this is hard for those who would prefer to be the preferred group, but it really isn't reasonable for anyone else to agree to that situation if they value their rights and freedoms.  

 

If you need to believe that everyone who disagrees with you is scared that is cool with me, but it isn't reality.  Perhaps when the stadium fills with a peaceful silence where all faiths and beliefs are respected and no laws are broken, where the energy and feel in the place is caring and positive without a particular religion having the right to run the show according to one set of rules it will be a place of fairness for all.

 

I am really surprised that you really believe that people shouting prayers in great numbers just because it is the way things are being done (we have no idea how many really even are thinking about what they are saying) than a simple person's attempt to acknowledge God.  How would that be determined?  I would think God would like to have some sincere believers quietly praying to him from their hearts than a stadium full of people shouting loudly to fill the air whether it is from the heart or not...perhaps I am wrong on that, though.  I thought what is the a person's heart mattered more than the public prayer..hmm.  If you are really okay with a moment of silence and the PA prayer is illegal, then why are you against it happening?  They will most likely be reasonable since they won't win the case and do it anyway.

 

First of all the government has no business having anything to do with schools. Can someone show me in the Constitution where it says it's the governments job to run the schools? Secondly it's freedom "of" religion not "from". We are a "Christian" nation that was built on the belief that all religions should be free tp practice. I have no problem with having prayer before a ballgame. It would be sad if the practice has to stop because of one individual.

Originally Posted by teyates:

Its OK, I think Don Quixote was a "nut job" also.  He went around jousting at windmills.  Something that should have been no threat to him but he was "feeling pressured" I guess.  To each his own, but anyone who thinks that Mr. Green's action is going to suppress or calm Christianity in this region is nothing more than a Don Quixote.  He has a right to his beliefs, and I stand by the fact that he is evidently not to secure in them if he is threatened by a public prayer.


Who said that is what this is about?  You are adding all kinds of agendas to a simple statement that this practice is unfair and illegal.  Who exactly is trying to suppress Christianity here?  Are you not Christian if you can't hear yelled prayers over loudspeakers at football games?  I would say that the Arab community is as Christian as it ever was, and if you think it is helping your religion then why worry about it anyway?

 

Yes, he does have a right to his beliefs, and if not hearing yelled prayers threatens you then by your own logic you are evidently not too secure in your beliefs.  I am not saying you are or not...that is your own logic I am following.  Once again...no one said you can't pray all day for the rest of your life if you want...no one is saying that, and in this country that is supposed to be true for all belief systems.  If I want to believe my avatar is God I can...but I just don't pray to him at school football games over the loudspeaker.  That is fair to everyone and takes nothing from anyone else except the control away from one group to yell at everyone else.

No you are pretty much wrong on several accounts.  If a group of Jewsih students were feeling ostracized, or a group of Muslim students were feeling left out, and that group of students went before the Board of Education and asked for either permission to voice a prayer, or for it to cease, I would side with them.  That is not what is happeneing here.  Mr. Green has no real concern with separation of church and state, what a joke, and you are a fool if you believe that as well.  The man does not attend school there, nor does he supposedly have children there.  He is being what I grew up to know as a "troublemaker".  He wishes to use the power of the courts to stop something that he does not agree with, and feels threatened by.

Atheists, humanists, or whatevers you chose to call yourselves this week, think they know what is best for everyone.  Let the students at the school decide, within reason, what they wish to do before their ball game.  It is their school and their event.  Just because you have no faith does not mean that someone else should share your loss. 

And no real Christian who knows God and loves God would condone the ceasing of a voluntary public prayer.  To do so is to bow down to pressure from those who think they know what is best for everyone else.  At the same time they know that God will hear the whisper as well as the outspoken prayer. But God thru Jesus instructed those who would deny him, he would deny also.

Originally Posted by ferrellj:

First of all the government has no business having anything to do with schools. Can someone show me in the Constitution where it says it's the governments job to run the schools? Secondly it's freedom "of" religion not "from". We are a "Christian" nation that was built on the belief that all religions should be free tp practice. I have no problem with having prayer before a ballgame. It would be sad if the practice has to stop because of one individual.


And once more no one said anyone couldn't practice religion.  We are not a Christian nation no matter what anyone likes to believe.  We are a nation of many people of many faiths and those of no particular faith, and you are free to practice all you want as long as you don't interfere with others' rights.  It isn't one individual who feels that way, but he was the one who happened to speak up in this particular area.  If you want to pray before a game no one is stopping you.  Religion has no business having to do with schools either...how would you feel if we started having all public schools have Islamic prayers as part of the day and said at at events instead of Christian ones?  You wouldn't like that I would bet.  This isn't even about who wants the prayers and who doesn't.  It is about the idea that one religious (or nonreligious) group gets to run over everyone else and run teh show.  

 

A moment of silence gives time for anyone to pray or whatever else or nothing, and on goes the game.  Nothing is taken from anyone except the privilege of choosing what religious ideas everyone else has to hear over the PA, and that is what the country was founded on...and that is what the law is about.

Originally Posted by b50m:

You can always stick your fingers in your ears. It might take 30 seconds for them to finish.

 

I think it is a 'much ado about nothing' moment. But we are now known national again.

 

Yay us.


Yes, and why should anyone need to do that?  We could just have a moment of silence so no one has to start sticking fingers in ears.  I agree it is much ado about nothing, and yes, we are national again for the same reasons as we usually are...sad.

Just for the record, I wouldn't want my statement I posted in a previous post about everyone not to believe in God and so forth read at a game either.  This isn't just because it's Christian prayers from my view.  It's anyone's religious or anti-religious views.

Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by ferrellj:

First of all the government has no business having anything to do with schools. Can someone show me in the Constitution where it says it's the governments job to run the schools? Secondly it's freedom "of" religion not "from". We are a "Christian" nation that was built on the belief that all religions should be free tp practice. I have no problem with having prayer before a ballgame. It would be sad if the practice has to stop because of one individual.


And once more no one said anyone couldn't practice religion.  We are not a Christian nation no matter what anyone likes to believe.  We are a nation of many people of many faiths and those of no particular faith, and you are free to practice all you want as long as you don't interfere with others' rights.  It isn't one individual who feels that way, but he was the one who happened to speak up in this particular area.  If you want to pray before a game no one is stopping you.  Religion has no business having to do with schools either...how would you feel if we started having all public schools have Islamic prayers as part of the day and said at at events instead of Christian ones?  You wouldn't like that I would bet.  This isn't even about who wants the prayers and who doesn't.  It is about the idea that one religious (or nonreligious) group gets to run over everyone else and run teh show.  

 

A moment of silence gives time for anyone to pray or whatever else or nothing, and on goes the game.  Nothing is taken from anyone except the privilege of choosing what religious ideas everyone else has to hear over the PA, and that is what the country was founded on...and that is what the law is about.

Go to the Middle East and see how they start their days. Then stand up and tell them you're a Christian and you think they should stop praying at school. If I were to go into a Muslim community I would expect that. We're a Christian community and should be allowed to pray. Like B said you can always cover your ears if it offends you that much.

Originally Posted by teyates:

No you are pretty much wrong on several accounts.  If a group of Jewsih students were feeling ostracized, or a group of Muslim students were feeling left out, and that group of students went before the Board of Education and asked for either permission to voice a prayer, or for it to cease, I would side with them.  That is not what is happeneing here.  Mr. Green has no real concern with separation of church and state, what a joke, and you are a fool if you believe that as well.  The man does not attend school there, nor does he supposedly have children there.  He is being what I grew up to know as a "troublemaker".  He wishes to use the power of the courts to stop something that he does not agree with, and feels threatened by.

Atheists, humanists, or whatevers you chose to call yourselves this week, think they know what is best for everyone.  Let the students at the school decide, within reason, what they wish to do before their ball game.  It is their school and their event.  Just because you have no faith does not mean that someone else should share your loss. 

And no real Christian who knows God and loves God would condone the ceasing of a voluntary public prayer.  To do so is to bow down to pressure from those who think they know what is best for everyone else.  At the same time they know that God will hear the whisper as well as the outspoken prayer. But God thru Jesus instructed those who would deny him, he would deny also.


If any sect of students wanted to pray they can pray when they like.  This isn't about squelching the right to pray, and if the students went and asked to read their prayers on the PA at games they would be told no, just as anyone should be.  It isn't a prayer meeting for any one group or even all groups.  Maybe he is a troublemaker...I don't know him so I don't know, and I might agree if I knew him..I don't know.  But whether he is or not doesn't mean he can't be right about this law or have the right to want it stopped.  

 

The bolded part is ironic to me.  Abortion is legal in this country and discrimination is illegal, but bills and tricks and sneak attacks have been initiated all over the country by groups who want to limit or eliminate the right to an abortion just because their religious beliefs or personal beliefs don't gel with a person's right to choose, and gays and other groups are discriminated against by religious groups often, so how is he any different than those groups even if he is doing what you say?  Are they troublemakers as well?

 

I don't have any loss of faith, and not only is this about a law being broken, but I suppose if you could choose you would also have students allowed to choose which races could attend their schools, if gay students could be kicked out, or if only teachers who are Christian could teach there?  You know, there are private schools who do those things already, and that is why they are called private schools that aren't supposed to be paid for by taxpayers or sanctioned as state-approved religious schools.  No one is saying a person can't pray...once again...no one.  The real issue is people who have been getting to decide what is best for everyone have been challenged, and that can be uncomfortable...change is hard, but respect for others is a step forward and not backward.

 

Your last paragraph basically seems to say to me that not only does a person have to believe in Jesus and be saved to be a real Christian, but must also believe that how you think is the only right way to think to be "real".  This isn't about just atheists...as I said, when I was Christian this bothered me even then, and I have known many other Christians who felt the same way  No one is denying God by praying quietly at a game...isn't that acknowledging him?  I don't think I know what is best for everyone really...that is why  moment of silence was suggested so everyone can do whatever moves them.  Your prayers aren't forbidden at all, and if God can hear them whispered then please feel free to whisper them and we can all feel that compromise has been accomplished.

I think the term "Christian" does require a basic belief in Jesus Christ, thus the defintion does not mean a whole lot.  This is not an issue of race, and no one is denying anyone based upon their race.  Mr. Green has stirred a hornet's nest that should have been left alone.  It was not hurting anyone, unlike opression due to race, which I abhor.  Like I said this is more about either a troublemaker, or something that threatens his beliefs, you can make up your mind or ask him yourself.  There was nothing going on at these games that threatened anyone.

So now when the school observes a moment of silence, if a student begins to pray outloud with a bullhorn, will Mr. Green then ask for the courts to have the police remove all such equipment from the premises?  How then will he stop the student led prayer?  He could have left everything alone since it was hurting no one, but now he has opened a Pandora's box.  Like I said, a troublemaker with an agenda.....

Originally Posted by ferrellj:
Originally Posted by frog:
Originally Posted by ferrellj:

First of all the government has no business having anything to do with schools. Can someone show me in the Constitution where it says it's the governments job to run the schools? Secondly it's freedom "of" religion not "from". We are a "Christian" nation that was built on the belief that all religions should be free tp practice. I have no problem with having prayer before a ballgame. It would be sad if the practice has to stop because of one individual.


And once more no one said anyone couldn't practice religion.  We are not a Christian nation no matter what anyone likes to believe.  We are a nation of many people of many faiths and those of no particular faith, and you are free to practice all you want as long as you don't interfere with others' rights.  It isn't one individual who feels that way, but he was the one who happened to speak up in this particular area.  If you want to pray before a game no one is stopping you.  Religion has no business having to do with schools either...how would you feel if we started having all public schools have Islamic prayers as part of the day and said at at events instead of Christian ones?  You wouldn't like that I would bet.  This isn't even about who wants the prayers and who doesn't.  It is about the idea that one religious (or nonreligious) group gets to run over everyone else and run teh show.  

 

A moment of silence gives time for anyone to pray or whatever else or nothing, and on goes the game.  Nothing is taken from anyone except the privilege of choosing what religious ideas everyone else has to hear over the PA, and that is what the country was founded on...and that is what the law is about.

Go to the Middle East and see how they start their days. Then stand up and tell them you're a Christian and you think they should stop praying at school. If I were to go into a Muslim community I would expect that. We're a Christian community and should be allowed to pray. Like B said you can always cover your ears if it offends you that much.


You are right.  They wouldn't like that much and you might not make it through the day.  That is why we don't have any official religion in this country.  It protects the rights of all the citizens to worship as they please or not worship if they choose.  That is the biggest difference between living here and there, and I doubt you would enjoy living there very much, just as many wouldn't enjoy living here if only Christian beliefs were allowed or tolerated.  It is why we are America and not the Middle East, and this is not a Christian country, state, or community.  The majority's religious beliefs are not the community's official beliefs, and really you benefit from that as much as everyone else does.  You may live in a Christian home and have your children attend Christian churches and schools, have them pray anywhere they like at any time, but you do not get to decide this community belongs to your religion...whatever it happens to be, and you don't get to make laws that make everyone else become Christian or worship, pray, or participate or be taught your beliefs.  That is why you get to do as you please...same law that says everyone else can too.  Sorry, but the majority in a certain area doesn't get to impose laws or traditions on everyone else whether they are the majority or not.  That's why there are churches and why homes are private and why private schools are built, but you do not get to impose religious laws on the community...sorry.  I am not in a "Christian community", but in a community that happens to have Christians among the other citizens. 

 

Once again...you are allowed to pray anywhere you want...haven't I said that before a zillion times?  

Those wanting to force a prayer on people in a captive situation like a crowd at a ballgame are no better than the radical islamist who force their religion on the unwilling.

 

The bible is clear in the new testament in calling public prayer something done by hypocrites for their own pride and display to others.  Go in a private place and pray.

 

I personally don't like someone praying at a ballgame or any other public event to the crowd that is not for a religious person.  Not everyone goes there to be a part of your theatrical display of your religious zeal.

 

This prayer in school and at public events didn't start until right wing politicians started using the prayer issue to fire up their base.  When I was in school in the 70s there was no public prayer in schools or at ballgames, and it was fine.   Anybody that tries to shout a prayer to bother someone else should be punched in the face and hauled off to jail.

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

America is sliding down a slippery slope from which it may not recover, all because of liberalism, anti-Christian court rulings and minority (pick one)-held beliefs becoming the norm, rather than the rule. Collectively, America has asked....no, BEGGED....for it for the past 40 years. She may very well choke on it.

****

 

dogsoldier,   those contending that school-directed prayer at such occasions as public school football games is unconstitutional are indeed a minority, but you should know that the Bill of Rights is expressly designed and intended to protect the rights of minorities.  I have to chuckle as I consider how often I have heard the right-wing cant that this nation is not a democracy, but is a constitutional republic and the related assertion (which is true) that the majority does NOT therefore rule, other than at the ballot box. Then along comes some issue such as this school prayer business, where the rights of the minority are entitled to constitutional protection, and all of a sudden the concept of majority rule is back in business with these wingers.  Where is the consistency?

Originally Posted by EvilGenius:

 

 

This prayer in school and at public events didn't start until right wing politicians started using the prayer issue to fire up their base.  When I was in school in the 70s there was no public prayer in schools or at ballgames, and it was fine. 

You must have went to school somewhere else, I went to school in the 70's too and there was prayer every day.

  Anybody that tries to shout a prayer to bother someone else should be punched in the face and hauled off to jail.

So it's your opinion that we whould make it illegal to pray out loud in public? Would you actually assault a person for praying out loud? I sorta doubt that you would, sounds like some tough talk without anything to back it up.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

The law is the law. It doesn't change to favor your point of view just because you don't like it. Mr. Green will win. Brooks HS and others will lose. No amount of misinformation, ignorant hyperbole and threats from theocratic nutjobs will change that. Brooks and other Lauderdale county schools will have moments of silence replacing official prayers in order to return to compliance with the law. Get used to it. City schools won't be far behind them.

 

Should Brooks or private individuals decide to pursue this matter legally they will be spanked and shown their place. In the process, they'll create even more precedent to bolster the Constitutional mandate of separation of state and church, making it easier for future Mr. Greens. Like I said, get used to it. Eventually, modernity catches up with us in the South and it affects the way we do things. This will be yet another lesson learned (but resented as usual).

****

 

Robustus, you are the MAN!   You have said in the above post just about all that needed to be said on this issue.  The law is indeed the law and the constitution is indeed the constitution and both law and constitution guarantee that the unconstitutional Brooks High School practice of government-sponsored prayer will be discontinued one way or another.  Either the school system will respond intelligently and stop the practice or the matter will go to court and the court will order them to stop. Depending on which of these outcomes prevails, the dispirited theocrats will condemn school officials or the court as feckless cowards and fellow travelers of atheism.  End of story, notwithstanding all the theocratic ranting that has irrelevantly cluttered the issue and irrespective of all the ignorant emotional diatribes posted here and on the Facebook site created by whatever passionately misinformed advocate got his/her panties in a wad over this losing cause.

So I'm once again seeing the debate of whether or not this is a Christian nation and of course there's the propaganda that some groups put out that even make the preposterous claim that our founding fathers where mostly non-Chiristian but even if you wish to go with that then I can still throw out the unreversed U.S. Supreme Court case,  Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 437 (1892), which held that “this is a Christian nation.” <<<<-------notice the quotes!

Of course the atheist groups have a boxed response for that too and try to argue against it but there is no doubt that the United States is a Christian nation and was founded upon Christian principles. So anyway, if you want to argue against a person's right to pray then claiming that we are not a Christian nation is not a good point to try and base your argument on. 

Following is Superintendent Valentine's memo that was distributed at this morning's meeting with the principals:

I realize that many will be disappointed or disagree with the decision outlined in this memo. However, after research with and by the school board's attorney with regard to current rulings by the 11th District U.S. Court and by the U.S. Supreme Court, the direction is clear in what we must do as school officials and as a school system in order to comply with the law. These courts and others across our nation have ruled more than once that prayer organized, supported, encouraged, and/or promoted by public schools before a football game is unconstitutional.School systems who have refused to comply or who tired to evade these federal court decisions have been and are subject to sanctions including fines, damages, attorney fees, and potential loss of federal funds for educational programs. Actually, some school systems have spent large sums of money in attempting to fight this type of situation and have lost. While I do not personally like some of the decisions that I have to make as superintendent (as this is one of those), and when acting as a private citizen do not agree with all laws or court decisions, as a public official I have sworn to follow the law. The directive that I have issued today does that --- follows the case law. To do differently, would place the well-being of the school system in jeopardy while encouraging others to reak the law. That I will not do.

I respectfully request your understanding.

Thank you and enjoy the days that we have been given.

William L. Valentine
Superintendent
Lauderdale County Schools
P.O. Box 278
Florence, AL 35631
Phone 256-760-1300

Originally Posted by lexum:

Frog, question: should believers boycott businesses that are owned by atheists?

I wonder of Google is aware that one if their employees is invoking their corporate name on behalf of a personal agenda against school children.


I don't boycott any Christian businesses and I have no idea why someone would boycott an atheist's business for that reason alone.  I go where they have pleasant atmosphere and items at decent prices, and I avoid those that don't.  I wouldn't boycott a place just because the owner is any particular religion or none. What does that have to do with this topic?

 

And that is silly.  He didn't invoke any corporate name saying he works there..lol.  Unless he said Google told me to say this who cares where he works.  Why are all these other irrelevant things being added into this?  Who said anyone has any agenda against kids?  That is your own interpretation and I see it as protecting school kids.  No each student can do what s/he likes and not have anything yelled at them over the PA.  The agenda against children is a twisted representation of the situation.

Hi all,

There is a lot of activity on Facebook about this happening at Brooks High School in Lauderdale County.   Here are two with the comments I added:


Remembering Shoals:

https://www.facebook.com/remem...8016041?notif_t=like

Tonight on WHNT News 19 at 10:00:   400+ people in Killen come together to show the power of prayer in the wake of a letter warning the school system to stop pre-game prayers.  By: WHNT NewsChannel 19

My comment:  The Shoals area is my hometown and I do not believe ANY non-believer has EVER been damaged by hearing a 15 or 30 second prayer spoken aloud.  God bless, Bill Gray - Bred in Alabama, Fed in California, Blessed to be an American Christian!


And:


Denise wrote:  Everyone needs to go to www.change.org and sign the petition to allow prayer at our school events.  Type in Lauderdale County and it will show the petition, then click on it to sign.

My Comment:   I signed because the Shoals area is my hometown and I do not believe ANY non-believer has EVER been damaged by hearing a 15 or 30 second prayer spoken aloud.  God bless, Bill Gray - Bred in Alabama, Fed in California, Blessed to be an American Christian!


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Pray_Flag-300-1

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Yes, hopefully the CITIZENS will stand up and pray. Make noise. Be noticed all they way up to heaven. That is their right. But why in the world do they have to have the school's help in doing so?

Tyates, I admire your stance that you would simply walk away as the law is being broken by your own government. But I'm sure you understand that others might be just as passionate against the government breaking the law.  If one person doesn't speak up against crimes, we all lose.   

And concerning the superintendent's letter: He had to pay the school lawyer a few hundred dollars just to get this opinion. What in the world for? The law is about as clear as it can be and it is for the protection of the state AND THE CHURCH.  

Originally Posted by BFred07:

So I'm once again seeing the debate of whether or not this is a Christian nation and of course there's the propaganda that some groups put out that even make the preposterous claim that our founding fathers where mostly non-Chiristian but even if you wish to go with that then I can still throw out the unreversed U.S. Supreme Court case,  Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 437 (1892), which held that “this is a Christian nation.” <<<<-------notice the quotes!

Of course the atheist groups have a boxed response for that too and try to argue against it but there is no doubt that the United States is a Christian nation and was founded upon Christian principles. So anyway, if you want to argue against a person's right to pray then claiming that we are not a Christian nation is not a good point to try and base your argument on. 

More crap from another crap-meister. Lies and more lies.

Originally Posted by lexum:

Frog, question: should believers boycott businesses that are owned by atheists?

I wonder of Google is aware that one if their employees is invoking their corporate name on behalf of a personal agenda against school children.

lexum, are you aware that this is not against school children but for the Constitution? I didn't think so.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

The times, they are a-changin'....

 

 

 

And NOT for 'the better'........  And folks wonder why America is headed down the toilet. Idiots.

Look in the mirror, idiot.

I would, but I'm afraid you'd be standing behind me. Are you stalking me, jimbo?

Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by dogsoldier0513:

The times, they are a-changin'....

 

 

 

And NOT for 'the better'........  And folks wonder why America is headed down the toilet. Idiots.

Look in the mirror, idiot.

I would, but I'm afraid you'd be standing behind me. Are you stalking me, jimbo?

Your disgusting, racist, Socialist, Fascist avatar is hard to miss and it is usually accompanied by an idiotic remark.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

There is a lot of activity on Facebook about this happening at Brooks High School in Lauderdale County.   Here are two with the comments I added:


Remembering Shoals:

https://www.facebook.com/remem...8016041?notif_t=like

Tonight on WHNT News 19 at 10:00:   400+ people in Killen come together to show the power of prayer in the wake of a letter warning the school system to stop pre-game prayers.  By: WHNT NewsChannel 19

My comment:  The Shoals area is my hometown and I do not believe ANY non-believer has EVER been damaged by hearing a 15 or 30 second prayer spoken aloud.  God bless, Bill Gray - Bred in Alabama, Fed in California, Blessed to be an American Christian!


And:


Denise wrote:  Everyone needs to go to www.change.org and sign the petition to allow prayer at our school events.  Type in Lauderdale County and it will show the petition, then click on it to sign.

My Comment:   I signed because the Shoals area is my hometown and I do not believe ANY non-believer has EVER been damaged by hearing a 15 or 30 second prayer spoken aloud.  God bless, Bill Gray - Bred in Alabama, Fed in California, Blessed to be an American Christian!


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Pray_Flag-300-1

Good luck with a petition to the Supreme Court to change the constitution. You really are a moron.

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