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Testimony of Charles Fried, Beneficial Professor of Law, Harvard Law School, and Former U.S. Solicitor General, Reagan Administration, 1985-1989

quote:
As I recall, the great debate in the Senate was between this device (the individual mandate) and something called the government option. And the government option was described as being something akin to socialism, and I think there's a bit of a point to that. But what is striking, Senator, is that I don't think anybody in the world could argue that the government option, or indeed a single payer federal alternative, would have been unconstitutional. It would have been deplorable. It would have been regrettable. It would have been Western if not Eastern European, but it would not have been unconstitutional. And it's odd that this (the individual mandate), which is an attempt to keep it in the private market, is now being attacked.

Regarding those critics who claim that the health care mandate infringes on personal liberty, as guaranteed by the 5th and 14th amendments to the Constitution, "that question was answered in 1905 by a unanimous (Supreme) Court in Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts, upholding...the imposition of a fine for refusing to submit to a state-mandated smallpox vaccination.

"By refusing vaccination, Jacobson was endangering not only himself but others whom he might infect. By refusing the much less intrusive and less intimate imposition of a requirement that one purchase health insurance if one can afford it, a person threatens to unravel the whole scheme designed to protect by health insurance the largest part of the population....The Jacobson case, which has been settled precedent for more than 100 years, shows conclusively that the mandate is not an unconstitutional imposition on individual liberty...

"To sum up: Insurance is commerce. Health insurance is undoubtedly commerce. Congress has the power to regulate commerce, and that means Congress may prescribe, in Chief Justice Marshall's words, a rule for commerce. The health care mandate is a rule for commerce."
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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I think promoting the general welfare would cover forcing someone to get immunized in order to prevent them from spreading a disease.

I do not think that being forced to join a "pool of medical costs" in order to make those who need it more are supported by those who need it less. Not being heartless, just factual.

While I realize many unpaid costs are passed on to those who pay it is generally passed on to those "un-insured" who pay, as the insured costs are generally pre-negotiated.

Current Healthcare law is completely UNCONSTITUTIONAL, despite what a Harvard Law School Proffessor has to say about it.

People are tired of the same old argument but why not force me to buy car insurance, life insurance, etc? What is the difference?
quote:
Originally posted by LE89:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I think promoting the general welfare would cover forcing someone to get immunized in order to prevent them from spreading a disease.

I do not think that being forced to join a "pool of medical costs" in order to make those who need it more are supported by those who need it less. Not being heartless, just factual.

While I realize many unpaid costs are passed on to those who pay it is generally passed on to those "un-insured" who pay, as the insured costs are generally pre-negotiated.

Current Healthcare law is completely UNCONSTITUTIONAL, despite what a Harvard Law School Proffessor has to say about it.

People are tired of the same old argument but why not force me to buy car insurance, life insurance, etc? What is the difference?


The un-insured dont pay.

You, if you have insurance and pay taxes are already paying for the care of the un-insured, through Medicaid(which in AlObama is almost all federally funded)and significantly higher costs which translates to higher premiums.
Well, I just can't wait until it is "prescribed" that the cure for homelessness is to mandate that everyone must buy a house or a condo, I mean home ownership is obviously the cure, right?. You might be allowed to live in temporary housing, currently known as apartments, yet you might have to eventually pay a fine for doing so. Yep... yep...yeeeeah... CAN'T WAIT to see that government mandated minimum standard for what constitutes a "house" will be...

I borrow a line from the Talking Heads song 'Once In A Lifetime'.... "...you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack..."
Hyperbole really is the best medicine.

Me, I cant wait for the gubment to decide that health care for older Citizens is just too expensive, and requires that everyone join in the risk pool for their entire working life by paying payroll taxes, such that everyone will be covered when they reach retirement, whether they ever worked or not!!! And, maybe 40 years later we can decide that to help guarantee the Florida vote in a national election, we can just buy all the meds the old folks need too!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Dittohead:
quote:
Originally posted by LE89:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I think promoting the general welfare would cover forcing someone to get immunized in order to prevent them from spreading a disease.

I do not think that being forced to join a "pool of medical costs" in order to make those who need it more are supported by those who need it less. Not being heartless, just factual.

While I realize many unpaid costs are passed on to those who pay it is generally passed on to those "un-insured" who pay, as the insured costs are generally pre-negotiated.

Current Healthcare law is completely UNCONSTITUTIONAL, despite what a Harvard Law School Proffessor has to say about it.

People are tired of the same old argument but why not force me to buy car insurance, life insurance, etc? What is the difference?


The un-insured dont pay.

You, if you have insurance and pay taxes are already paying for the care of the un-insured, through Medicaid(which in AlObama is almost all federally funded)and significantly higher costs which translates to higher premiums.


You are incorrect, I've been un-insured several times in my younger years, and paid every time. Worked out payments if necessary, I PAID, didn't get bailed out by ANYONE. I PAID, not so that your parents wouldn't have to pay my share but because it was MY BILL. I PAID IT. My system is simple. I pay for me and mine, you pay for you and yours. We will all pay for the unable and ONLY the UNABLE, not the UNWILLING.
quote:
Originally posted by LE89:
You are incorrect, I've been un-insured several times in my younger years, and paid every time. Worked out payments if necessary, I PAID, didn't get bailed out by ANYONE. I PAID, not so that your parents wouldn't have to pay my share but because it was MY BILL. I PAID IT. My system is simple. I pay for me and mine, you pay for you and yours. We will all pay for the unable and ONLY the UNABLE, not the UNWILLING.


Do you understand why care is so expensive at hospitals? You are paying others bills right now. That is part of what health care reform is trying to correct. Your system is great in the near perfect world of 18th century America, but is no longer applicable to modern society.
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
That's the liberal response, the Constitution is no longer applicable in todays society.


Its not liberal, it progressive. Society will not tolerate allowing folks to suffer, even in spite of their bad choices. If people without insurance would be denied care, everyone would have insurance.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Dittohead:
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
That's the liberal response, the Constitution is no longer applicable in todays society.


Its not liberal, it progressive. Society will not tolerate allowing folks to suffer, even in spite of their bad choices.


So...no consequences for actions or non-actions? Woohoo! The rainbow farting unicorn led utopia is right around the corner! That's progress alright! Gimme my soma ! Or my lotuses to eat ! What total lunacy you propose... a moonbat melange' of responsibility shirking on a national, or even global scale.
Last edited by marksw59
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Dittohead:
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
That's the liberal response, the Constitution is no longer applicable in todays society.


Its not liberal, it progressive. Society will not tolerate allowing folks to suffer, even in spite of their bad choices.


So...no consequences for actions or non-actions? Woohoo! The rainbow farting unicorn led utopia is right around the corner! That's progress alright! Gimme my soma! Or my lotuses to eat!


You dont have any thing constructive to add to any discussion. Same as the Repubs in Congress. Meanwhile, the health care system you once knew, will never be the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Dittohead
You dont have any thing constructive to add to any discussion. Same as the Repubs in Congress. Meanwhile, the health care system you once knew, will never be the same.


Wow. That seems to carry the exact same tone as this...

"There are no terms. Discussion is irrelevant. Strength is irrelevant. Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. Death is irrelevant. If you defend yourselves, you will be punished. Your culture will adapt to service us. You must comply. Your life, as it has been, is over. From this time forward, you will service us. We only wish to raise quality of life for all. You will become one with us. Resistance is futile."
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Dittohead:
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Dittohead:
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
That's the liberal response, the Constitution is no longer applicable in todays society.


Its not liberal, it progressive. Society will not tolerate allowing folks to suffer, even in spite of their bad choices.


So...no consequences for actions or non-actions? Woohoo! The rainbow farting unicorn led utopia is right around the corner! That's progress alright! Gimme my soma! Or my lotuses to eat!


You dont have any thing constructive to add to any discussion. Same as the Repubs in Congress. Meanwhile, the health care system you once knew, will never be the same.


Old dog juan hunt,

The progressive utopia of the EU is falling apart. The PIGS,once cited as exemplars of socialism and green tech, are lined up begging Germany for bucks. France is retrenching. The UK is cutting their budget drastically, including a backdoor re-privatization of medical care. The home of the EU capital (Brussels) is almost a failed state. Belgium is not over nine months without a government.

Its not working there and it won't work here, either!
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The Borg queen was better looking than Nancy. LOL

You do have a point though. The Borg assimilated all other races into the 'hive' so they all be of one mind and act as a unit. To protect and preserve the species, which looked and acted like all other species. Hmmmmmmm.


Trouble was, the borg slaves had a secret world they retreated to when they slept. Once good push by the Federation, and the borg fell apart.
quote:
Originally posted by elinterventor01:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The Borg queen was better looking than Nancy. LOL

You do have a point though. The Borg assimilated all other races into the 'hive' so they all be of one mind and act as a unit. To protect and preserve the species, which looked and acted like all other species. Hmmmmmmm.


Trouble was, the borg slaves had a secret world they retreated to when they slept. Once good push by the Federation, and the borg fell apart.


EXACTLY! Resistance is NOT futile! The excrement eating leftists WILL be defeated!
[/QUOTE]

Do you understand why care is so expensive at hospitals? You are paying others bills right now. That is part of what health care reform is trying to correct. Your system is great in the near perfect world of 18th century America, but is no longer applicable to modern society.[/QUOTE]

Yes I do understand why it is so expensive. What you fail to realize is that many un-insured do pay their bills. The un-insured pay higher costs because they have no pre-negotiated price by an insurance company. Your cost for x-rays as an un-insured are charged higher than an insured is charged. Why because the cost of those who don't pay is spread among those who do. Those who do fall in to two categories, insured and un-insured. Un-insured charges will be more for their services than an insured. This is the penalty for not having insurance.

On the other hand, I do NOT wish to be forced by the Government to purchase $5,000 worth of insurance every year just because I get bronchitis twice a year. I might prefer just to pay the $70 office visit + $50 meds x two times per year and pocket the other $4,760 for use as I see fit. But the Government has decided we need to pool and be equal, irreguardless of preference.

If being forced to purchase insurance and all on a "pool" basis, why not throw you and your driving record into a "car insurance pool" and let's share the cost of all the multi-DUI offenders. That would just be fair and progressive, right?

Why stop there, lets just all pool our income and all our bills too. The we shall be truely equal.

Another point you fail to realize, is that you will NEVER drive insurance cost down, they are the middleman in a threeway transaction, passing the cost along. Medical costs of the entire population will not go down, it will go up. Once we are all insured, you can bet that only the finest barrage of medical tests available will be good enough to test for strep throat, maybe even an MRI.

I believe in insurance, I carry it voluntarily and pay for it fully and that is the way I prefer to keep it, voluntary.

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