quote:
Originally posted by CageTheElephant:
What? No real answers to gbrk's questions? I think it was a resonable request.
Yet, Billy...you didn't really answer anything(?)
As I observe, its' pretty obvious the Atheists/Evolutionarists group here have no more to offer in a way of fact than the God/Creationist/Religious group does.
The GCR's quote scripture to each other/AE group, and have the "faith" "feel good" thing going on, and the AE's fall back on the everyone is stupid who don't follow us, let's pat each other on the back sh*t.
Gimme something better than that...
Dustin?...Aude...Pup?...Anybody????
OK Cagey.. I'll take a crack at it. At least from where I'm standing.
I don't have a problem with the belief in god. I'm still trying to understand how people can do it.
I DO have a problem with some of the believers' reasoning.
I believe in evolution because to me, it makes sense. It follows a logical progression based on proven physical laws.
No, I can't explain in precise, mathematical detail how it works. I can't walk out in my backyard and grab a fossilized bone that belonged to a former member of a species that was somewhere in between the apes that Darwin says we came from and the species that is us today, but I *can* tell you about examples of the process of survival and adaptation for that purpose that Darwin describes that I see everywhere. I can't show ya a Dodo bird because there aren't any left. They're all dead. Extinct. Long time ago. Doesn't mean it didn't exist. Trilobites. They're dead too an even longer time ago. Can't show ya one, but I can tell ya where to go to see fossilized remains of one. Doesn't mean they didn't exist.
Dinosaurs. Don't EVEN get me started on THOSE buggers. There's enough bones in museums to prove that they existed. Atheists didn't just bresk out their Play-Doh Fun Factories and whomp up a buncha dinosaur bones just to prove the believers wrong.
I know I'm rambling here, but ya know what just occurred to me?
Ya don't see any god bones laying around anywhere.... If god supposedly created man in his own image, then WHY haven't WE ALWAYS BEEN HERE, TOO? WHY NOT then are we all-powerful, all-seeing entities like he supposedly is?
I mean, c'mon! If you're gonna believe the story-believe the WHOLE story-The parts they didn't tell ya about that would make sense to anyone capable of rational thought. If god created us in his own image, that logically means that god works just like we do, following the same irrefutable laws of physics-There's gotta be some former god bones laying around SOME-freakin'-where in the universe, 'cause NOTHING can live that long!
How do we know nothing can live that long?
Because WE don't live that long.! Logically, if we were created in his image-He must then follow the same physical rules that we have to-either that or we should be just like him and be immortal, all-powerful beings just like him.
If he created us in his own image-WHY did he leave us here on this rock to fend for ourselves? (Oh, yeah, that talking snake/garden of Eden thing..)
You might say to me "But we're supposed to eventually go to be with him in heaven!"
Horsecrap. That makes no sense. If he wanted us there with him, he woulda created us there with him. Why the need for a trial period that just keeps repeating itself? If we are created in his own image-why do we NEED a trial period?
Did god make a mistake in the program causing us to screw up and get banished from the garden? Was he UNSURE of his own abilities? Aren';t we supposed to be like him? If he were perfect and considered us to be his perfect creation-the apex of his career, What went wrong? If we were perfect, like him, that whole garden thing WOULD NOT HAVE McFREAKING HAPPENED!
He/We are either perfect or He/We're not.
"Magic" cannot and does not make sense.
Either HE created us in "his own image" (read: "Mirror image"), Why then are we not just like him?) Or WE created HIM in our own image. (Why then isn't he just like us?)
Ya can't have it both ways.
If you're gonna make the rules, EVERYBODY has to follow the same flappin' rules.
As far as evolution goes, I see that it's all about survival.
The salamander that just outright drops it's tail off when it is touched to avoid being caught and killed-and then regenerates a new one so it can do it agqain should the need arise. Neat trick. Very effective survival tactic.
The bacteria that mutates to adapt to different conditions to avoid being killed either by external threats or to keep from killing it's own host. Ebola, for instance, still hasn't quite figured that one out. It still has to transfer to another host before it kills the one it's in to stay alive.
The common cold virus. There's an example of a living thing that *has* adapted to the point where it doesn't kill it's host (living environment). Even it still doesn't have the ability yet to adapt to conditions that are outside the limits of those it needs to survive and is therefore killed when the conditions of it's environment become hostile to it. (too hot, too cold, too acid, too alkaline, etc.)
I suspect that the reason it still exists is because we haven't yet found the place that IS always conducive to it's survival. Then again, maybe it just knows when to 'jump ship' and move on to a less hostile environment and that's how it survives. I'm not a doctor and I haven't been taught all the details of how viruses work, but I've been told by people who ARE doctors and DO know how it works that this is what they do. I've proven to myself that I can shorten the time a virus negatively affects me by purposely changing my blood chemistry (too acid/too alkaline) slightly for awhile.
(Bugs HATE aspirin, (acetylsalicylic acid) it seems. If your stomach lining can tolerate it, I recommend it when you're sick.)
Viruses follow the same physical laws that we all must follow. While I haven't been taught all the details, I understand the concepts and they make sense.
Do I believe the doctor based solely on blind faith? No. I don't have to rely on blind faith because I'm not blind to understanding the process and the reasons for it.
How can I just believe something that somebody who claims to be an authority on it TOLD ME?
Because it makes sense to me. Why?
Because I know from my own personal experience that if I walk into a blast furnace that is operating (too hot), I am going to die. The materials that make up my body will be converted into byproducts of what they used to be (conversion of matter to energy-observed and proven) and then they will no longer function as they once did. (Matter cannot be destroyed-only changed in form-It has been observed and proven) I'll still be here, I just won't be anything like I remember being like.
I won't do that then because I don't want to die.
I know that if I spend too much time out in the New England (or NOO YAWK) winter weather and I'm not dressed properly for it, I'm going to die because being in an environment where the temperature is too low,(Cold slows molecular activity-this has been observed and proven) the fluids I need to stay circulating in my body will thicken and slow, like motor oil in an old Volvo in Bangor in January and it will no longer be able to carry nutrients and oxygen to the parts of me that need them to stay alive.
I won't do that then because I don't want to die.
I know not to drink the sulfuric acid out of the battery in my bike. I've seen what it does to my blue jeans when I accidentally splash the slightest drop on them. Eats 'em right up. I've also felt the pain of acid burns when I wasn't careful pouring it and it got on my skin. I've seen the destroyed skin where I got burned and waited for it to slough off, dead.
So I won't do that then because I don't want to be damaged and I don't want to die.
Besides...The acid doesn't taste good. Don't even ask me how I know this, cause I'm too embarrassed to explain it.
I know enough not to drink Drano. (POP, POP, FIZZ, FIZZ) because I've seen the violent destruction it causes to organic materials it comes in contact with as it breaks them down into simpler versions of what they were. (again, conversion of matter to energy-observed and proven. Don't believe me? Pour some Drano (sodium hydroxide) down the drain next time you have a hairball stuck in there and feel the pipe. It'll be mighty hot (matter-to-energy)).
So I won't do that then because I don't want to die.
I won't jump out onto the interstate in front of traffic because I know that Force=Mass x Velocity. (Logical-Proven) It'll hurt, but only for a second or three (as the car's kinetic energy is transferred to me-who isn't built to withstand it) before either the organs I need functioning to support the brain I live in stop working because they've been crushed out of shape/position and they don't do what they're supposed to do anymore and/or the aforementioned fluids leak out of me instead of going where they're supposed to. I've seen with my own eyes the result of this energy transfer-and it ain't pretty.
Again, I don't want to die.
Now, exactly *why* I don't wanna die does remain a mystery to me.
Things like that often make me wonder "what's the point? Why the heck DO I have such a strong instinct to survive? That point, I guess is where my logic runs out.
Bill, You're telling me "SHOW me where MY belief proves what you're telling me!" (Whaddya$#@*in'kiddinme??) I can't show you proof of what I'm saying in your scripture because it isn't IN your scripture.
You're setting me/us up to be wrong by dictating that it only be by YOUR ()Your book's/belief's, whatever) rules and definitions that we can show you proof of what we are talking about because you KNOW it isn't in there. That's a pretty pathetic attempt at a guaranteed win, in my opinion.
It makes you appear to be a 'moron-on-purpose.'
And let me go on to FURTHER to say that Jesus is the one and ONLY way to Heaven. 
