How about some evidence for the existance of God

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Originally posted by JimiHendrix:
I think that we can close this topic by saying that there is no evidence for God. No use in wasting any more time on it.

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Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:

Originally posted by JimiHendrix:
I think that we can close this topic by saying that there is no evidence for God. No use in wasting any more time on it.

And who made you the forum moderator?

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Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:

Originally posted by JimiHendrix:
I think that we can close this topic by saying that there is no evidence for God. No use in wasting any more time on it.

And who made you the forum moderator?

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Originally posted by DarkAngel:

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Originally posted by buffalo:

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Originally posted by Unobtanium:

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Originally posted by O No!:
You asked for evidence. I told you WHY no one would ever be able to show you evidence. That isn't "babbling".

Now, could you answer MY question, please? Show me evidence (not feelings) for love.

ono, science has shown that "love" consists of chemical reactions in the brain. a little oxytocin, endorphins and other opioids here, a few pheromones there, a natural tendency to prefer symmetry over chaos (beauty), subconscious desires to procreate with the individual who best represents our "ideal" choice of gene propogation. all these purely physical manifestations of the innate need to reproduce combine to form the complicated concept we call "love" and i'm sure other animals species have a "word" for it, too.

whether you like or not, whether you choose to participate or not, your sole purpose in life is to pass on your genetic information. we are but containers for genes.

it's a perfectly natural phenoenon. no magic sky men necessary.

scientifically inaccutate uno on everything you stated as fact in your post. Making you look stupid. Quit with trying to be a scientist.

What exactly do you think is inaccurate (if that is what you meant to say)?

There is also proof that our sense of smell helps us pick a mate and the more suited we are physically the more likely we are to have feelings of "love".

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Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

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This is how you come up with theories such as the "Big Bang" or Evolution. When you discount a dimension apart from the Physical that is before our eyes then you have to come up with ways that a human can understand to explain that which at times is unexplainable. Jimi can no more convince people he has dreams or what they are so, as you have said, they must not exist since you cannot physically prove them.

The Big Bang and evolution are the result of scientific observations and study. No supernatural dimension is necessary.

Religion is precisely that mechanism that humans use to explain the inexplicable. Until quite recently, it was all we had, and therefor understandable. But now we know about the Big Bang, evolution, seismology, etc. and there is no honest reason to reject those studies in favor of our previous ignorance.

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by JimiHendrix:
I would really like to see some evidence for the existence of God. I am not looking for what you "feel" or "believe" but some real evidence. I don't believe that there is any evidence. Someone please prove me wrong.

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Originally posted by gbrk:

quote:

Originally posted by JimiHendrix:
I would really like to see some evidence for the existence of God. I am not looking for what you "feel" or "believe" but some real evidence. I don't believe that there is any evidence. Someone please prove me wrong.

First of all I don't believe your question is genuine. I don't believe you sincerely would "really like" to see some evidence for the existence of God. I think your reason for the post was confrontational in the beginning rather than engage in constructive debate.

You said no one answered your question because they can't. In one way that's true as for as categorical evidence but circumstantial has to be considered also. If you take a black/white restricted definition as you seem to be implying ( that is no physical evidence then no possibility God exist) you have to say dreams don't exist or love doesn't exist, fear doesn't exist nor memories or intelligence. You cannot physically prove any of these or analyze them under a microscope glass.

There is no physical proof of God for God is not Physical. God is a Spirit a Spiritual being in a dimension that is beyond what science or humans can touch or feel in their hands.

Science and humans make assumptions and develop theories about many things they cannot see, touch, or feel based upon many factors. You just refuse to admit that you are trapped in and by your own question and with reason. You only retort is to demean others which whom you disagree rather than conceding that just because you cannot physically prove or touch something that it doesn't exist. Man has never seen or been to the center of the Earth but we have an idea what is there but can't PROVE it by evidence. Even the physical world and realm has many unknowns.

Failure to consider a realm beyond what you can lay your own hands and eyes on shows your own limitations and shortcomings. Attempting to dismiss the thread and those who have attempted to answer you, legitimately, reveals your own inadequacies. Rather than debate or exchange in ideas and dialog you only care to insult others and their beliefs and theories thus revealing your motivation for the initial post to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:

I still stand by my belief that I find it hard to believe that God would create a human being to be a homosexual, then warn us against it & go so far as to call it an abomination, & that person, living a homosexual lifestyle, still goes to Heaven when they die.

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Sez jimi: My only motivation was to demonstrate that you believe in something for no reason other than it makes you feel good. I knew that you would offer no evidence because there is none, and you have admitted that. The only evident inadequacies here lie with those who need a crutch or an imaginary friend to overcome their lack of self-esteem. They cannot survive without the hope of eternal life, so they make up a method to achieve it and believe it contrary to all reason. I have no objection with you believing whatever nonsense you choose, as long as you keep it out of my government, out of my schools, and off of my money. And, if you want to participate in the political process, pay the price of admission: abolish all tax exemptions for religion. Want to take a huge hunk out of the federal deficit? Tax the property owned by the Catholic and LDS churches. Now I am finished.

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Originally posted by JimiHendrix:
I have no objection with you believing whatever nonsense you choose, as long as you keep it out of my government, out of my schools, and off of my money. And, if you want to participate in the political process, pay the price of admission: abolish all tax exemptions for religion. Want to take a huge hunk out of the federal deficit? Tax the property owned by the Catholic and LDS churches. Now I am finished.

One problem with the Taxation issue on Churches or Religious organizations.  IF you are going to throw away the first amendment, separation of Church and State then it will be said that the same also applies to prayer and other issues on Government property and areas where the courts have previously ruled that there must be a defined separation of Church and state.  

This one almost belongs on the Politic Forum.

The money I donate to my Church and the Money anyone donates to thier Churches,

is Gods money. Keep the governments greedy paws out of the Lords till.

You want to balance the budget, and I do too, get rid of the waste and freeloaders.

God Bless the USA.

Skippy

May I take it that, by your way of thinking, when a church is burning down, the Fire Department should ignore it?  When some idiot vandalizes or robs a church, the Police Department should do nothing?  Should churches be able to hook up to public utilities?  And what about the opportunity cost of tax-free property that would otherwise be paying taxes?  Would a town be justified in abolishing churches altogether?

df/nsns/whoever until I'm banned again.

gb,



It is not a reasonable and rational conclusion regarding any aspect of Nature.  Science is the methodological study of nature, and the supernatural does not lend itself to methodological reason.

Get a room of physicists together to discuss the escape velocity of mass from Earth's gravity, and it does not matter who is Muslim, Christian, atheist, or Buddhist.  The math speaks for itself, reality will not be denied.  This is why the supernatural is discredited in matters of quantifiable reality.

If you want to pretend that you know what happens after death, by all means, defend it theologically, but remember, you can only apply theology to those things that are beyond evidence.  That strikes me as intellectually weak and almost cowardly.  You establish a reality that you define, based on the grounds that it cannot be disproven.  This is your privilege, but I am under no obligation to respect it.

DF

What does your god need with money?   Part of the waste we face are the uncollected taxes from churches. Can you imagine the income from taxes of the billions of dollars the churches have? Not to mention they can well afford it. Help the needy? Start with the USA.

Matthew 22:21 Then saith him unto them, render therefor unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.



Jen, I was going to asked the same thing.

Jennifer, Semiannualchick, I guess I should have phrased that better. Of course God

dosen't need the money. I know that part of his plan for us upon this earth, is for us to

learn how to help one and another. Teach us how to give to those in need, but not

force us. Our Church has a massive welfare program as does the Catholic and many

other Churches. These churches not only give support,(houseing, utility bills, medical

bills, clothing ect... to it's members but non-members. Ours and some of these other

Churches donate tremmendous amounts of relief to disaster areas around the year.

We also have to build meeting houses ect...and maintain those buildings as well as

utilities ect... . Our clergy is all volunteer with no compesation. Our Church and I'm sure

others as well are and will continue to be Charities. I was our Wards,

(local congregation's) Finance Clerk and was able to see the good of where the

donations went. We believe we should give to worthy causes, but we shouln't be forced

to. Our Church is very carefull with all donations. The Gov't. not only gives money to forien gov't's.(no ? asked), but it has massive unnecessary poork projects all over the country. Wellfare should br on a

State to State basis. The Federal gov't should not according to the ennumerated powers

of the Fed. gov't in the Constitution should not be involved with any type of wellfare or

health care. Again God dosen't need the money. The money we give is given wilfully to

help ourselves help others, I don't think God would like us shipping money to Libya or

other places to kill our fellow man.

Skippy

Here's an example of a "scientific institution" that is tax exempt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I..._Management_Sciences

Fraternal organizations such as the Elks, the Masons, Kiwanis, the Moose, and many many others are tax exempt. That is because they do charitable work. They do a lot of other things too. They are "clubs" that hold dinners and all kinds of other events.

The church does a lot of charity work. Someone suggested that a pastor's pay shouldnot be tax exempt. A pastor does not just work on Sundays. They visit the sick, they counsel the emotionally ill, they work with the poor. EXCEPT for Sunday services, just about everything they do is caritable work.

But if you don't want the church to be tax exempt anymore, that means none of these other organizations should be either. If that were to happen, there would be a lot more people suffering in this country. There would be a lot less scientific research done in this country.

Those who complain about so-called "government handouts" should be prepared to either take unpon themselves the caritable work that the church and these other organizations do, or just stand back smugly and watch the less fortunate suffer.

Oh, and pray that THEIR cir***stances never change. One thing about Christians is we all know that "there but for the grace of God go I".

No that wasn't my intent.  The statement was to go ahead and tax Churches and religious institutions.  One reason they are not taxed, as other entities, is the first amendment.  My point was simply if you start altering the first amendment, in order to tax churches, then where does it stop?  Do we then start implementing prayers in school, Bible teaching in schools, if the majority approves and desires it?  My attempt, at making a point, was to say you may find it desirable to tax churches but if and when you do then you also open ways to cir***vent the amendment in other ways that you or others might not find so desirable.

Yes, churches give some money to charities. I give to charities but I still have to pay my taxes. Paying taxes wouldn't bankrupt a church or make it less able to help people. Churches send money all over the world. If your and other's argument is you don't want to pay taxes in the United States so you can "help people", then I say that money should be used ONLY in the United States. There is no reason churches should be exempt from paying taxes, and if they really wanted to do the right thing they'd pay them. Charity begins at home-render unto Caesar etc.

Ono, the same could be said for the president of the Red Cross,  their job is to administer the charity for which they work and their income is taxed just like everyone else.  if what you say were true, then i should also be tax exempt because by business is also to help people.

that said, i agree that a pastor's income should not be taxed but not for the ill-conceived reasons given by you folks.  if a pastor's income is taxed, that means he is given an elevated right to parti****te in government activities.  for the same reason, churches should not be taxed. let's keep them both as far away from government as possible.

I was about to reply that taxation on church "income" and property has absolutely nothing to do with with the First Amendment.   Upon further reflection however, this isn't true.  Taxation by the government can be used as a form of control.  We see it everyday in tax laws designed to affect behavior.  The most obvious example is tariffs designed to limit or promote import/export.  Capital gains taxes are used to promote long-term investment in business, depreciation laws promote purchasing of equipment and infrastructure by businesses.  Charitable donations are encouraged by making them deductible to the contributor..  Even home ownership is encouraged through tax law.  The list is endless.

The ability to tax is the ability to affect behavior, to control an organization; and allowing the government to control churches through taxation is just as affective as putting the Head of State in charge of the Church - one of the very reasons that our English forefathers left England and ultimately revolted.  The idea is clearly a violation of the concept of Separation of Church and State.

See my answer above - and if you give enough of your income to charitable organizations, you get a deduction on your tax return.

I'm assuming that when you talk about churches paying taxes that you are talking specifically about income taxes.  Since income for businesses is taxed on "net income" - what is left over after all the expenses are paid - what income would most churches have at the end of the year?  But my answer above is the real reason that churches shouldn't pay taxes - it is in the Constitution.

Pastor's income is taxable - though they get some very interesting treatment - as it should be.  They are not, in and of themselves, the church; merely employees of the church.  Should the church secretary and janitor be exempt also?  If church employee salaries ever become non-taxable, churches will become the only employers in America.

"One reason they are not taxed, as other entities, is the first amendment. "

OK, so when the church catches fire, the parishioners can form a bucket brigade and put it out while the Fire Department watches.

I"m good with that.  Really.

DF

But they won't because a large proportion of the firemen have most likely been helped by the church at one time or another.

fair enough, but also tell god to quit trying to leech off the public trough.

tax exempt churches are in the waste and freeloader catagory.

The Nagel,

I think your confused. How in the world do think Churches are sponging of

the gov't? No church that I know of receives anything from Uncle Sam. As

a matter of fact with the support most churches give to people, housing, Food,

clothing, utilities, disaster relief, counseling, ect... the churches take a lot of the

burden off the gov't. Can you imagine if these churches didn't do these things

we would be in a lot bigger mess than we are in now. The churches do not have

the massive overhead the gov't does. The Churches are for the most part stream-

lined. Leave the Churches alone to continue to do what they do best, help those

in need. Also when one donates to thier Church it is by thier own free will. When

the gov't takes your money, you have no choice. The federal gov't shouldn't be

meddling in social programs anyway. The Constitution thru the enumerated

powers gives this authority to the States.

Skippy

I agree completely.  I see what Crusty Mac and a couple of others mean when they make the point of keeping them separate from government. Yet, if they want that privilege to be exempt from taxes shouldn't they be exempt from the advantages the rest of us have by paying taxes? Such as fire departments and police protection. Some one mentioned the Elks Lodge and a  few more clubs that are tax exempt, the difference between them and churches is that they are not promoting a religious dogma with the money they take in.  The other problem I see is that they do not keep their religion out of government yet we are supposed to keep our government out of their religion. Surely I'm not the only one that sees the hypocrisy in that? In one sense I feel that the first amendment has already been thrown out the window by most religious organizations. When my tax dollars goes to fund faith-based organizations regardless of my belief or lack their of, to me that flies in the face of our constitution in its self. Just like the thread started a couple of weeks ago about the fundamentalist Christian homes for wayward girls. They have been getting away with abusing these children in the name of God for decades now and one of the main reasons is because they are not bound by the same laws and regulations other secular group homes are because they are faith based.

What are you talking about?!?!?! The government does give money to churches. Tax dollars.

Faith Based Grants

The government has special programs set aside for faith based organizations that are designed to assist in starting up a church, providing grants and scholarships for Christians or other faith based education (including loans for school, theology scholarships and Financial aid), and even grants for faith based community development and religious youth programs.

http://www.usgov-grants.org/faith-based-grants/

Keep religion out of politics? I think that ship has sailed. The "argument" so to speak is why churches don't pay taxes. OK, they do charity work. Fine. But if they were really helping "the poor" why do most churches have millions of dollars "in reserve", and in a lot of cases billions of dollars? That's billions skippy, think how much even one billion of dollars could help someone yet these churches are sitting on billions. How much is the LDS worth? 25-30 billion? Most likely a lot more. Now then, who funds the "programs" that aren't for the needy? In other words who foots the bill for missionaries, missions, etc. Who funds the life style that some of the church leaders have, a lifestyle that would make a god envious? IF churches were truly using that money for the "poor" they could have wiped it out by now. IMO it is open fraud.

Off subject a bit-Have you been seeing the Salvation Army ads urging people to will their property to them? There is something a little unsettling about it. Charity and helping people in need is a wonderful thing. The problem is that the truly needy never get that help and no one will demand to know why. Help an elderly person that can't buy medicine and food, or help the crack *****?  Guess which gets the best treatment?  Churches should pay taxes and nsns is right-if they don't want to contribute to their communities they shouldn't be allowed to dial 911 in case of an emergency.

Dark Angel,

the web page you refered to is an advertisment, not an official gov't web site.

This site says we are all entitled to gov't free money. Come one come all and

pertake of the free gov't money. Free gov't money that the federal gov't is

required to give us. This is truly a site for the socialists. As far as the Church

of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the only thing it has ever received from

the gov't is persecution and grief. Let's not foreget not forget the extermination

order from Governor Boggs of MS in the 1800's. Yep sure done alot for us.

Skippy

No Jenn keep politics out of religion.

The reason most churches have money in reserve is because they don't have

polititions handling the money. I can't you would really believe that the gov't

would handle money more efficiently than the Churches. We're not talking

Jim & Tammy or Pat Robison. Our church gives out billion every year, that's

billions with a B. I have personally signed checks for 10's of thousands of dollars

just in our local congregation. Our Church knows you can't spend more than you

take in, un-like the gov't. Our Church owns massive farms, huge orchards of fruits,

canneries, graineries, dairies ect.. and all for welfare of members and non-members

alike. The gov't funds none of our pragrams. These programs are funded by wise

investments and the members of the Church. The Missionaries pay thier own way

for thier missions unless they can't afford it then the Church pays the way. We ship

millions of dollars and aid to natural disasters around the world every year. If the

gov't such a good money manager, why is it bankrupt? I will never see any of my

benifits from my contributions to SS or Medicare. We have the Freedom of religion.

This means also Freedom from the gov't. If the fed gov't would follow the Constitution

and let the States handle Welfare if they so choose. Not the fed. gov't.

Skippy

Yes it is a website that helps groups or individuals get grants and money from the government. That was not the point. You said that churches do not get money from the government. Not true. The biggest supporter of that in most recent history was George W. Bush. Now Obama has taken up where he left off. At least Obama has made it easier for secular organizations to get their share.

Ever heard of the Faith-Based Initiative? Look it up.

Here is the official White House website if that makes a difference to you. I don't know why it would. The fact is that faith based organizations receive a huge chunk of federal money each year...and it comes from our tax dollars.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ofbnp

I stand by my statement that our Church(LDS) has received nothing. Stop the grants I agree.

Especially the money like the one given to the cleric(I forget his name) that was involved in

the ground zero proposed mosque. Millions of dollars paid to him as the US's goodwill

ambassador to moslems around the world.

Skippy

Wrong again Skippy. The LDS receives federal grants just like other faith based organizations.  Why don' t you guys stop pulling off the federal teet if you are so self sufficient?

The only way to keep government out of religion is, AGAIN, keep religion out of politics. No, the millions and billions in reserve is not "good management". It's hoarding/greed and only spending what churches have to spend to keep their status. It's to support all those monster churches, and the lavish lifestyles of the big mucky mucks in the churches. It is absolutely no different than the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakers. There is no reason on earth for churches to be worth that kind of money IF they were truly spending it to help people. Like I said, they'd have wiped out poverty by now. You don't pay taxes in the United States of America but you send money around the world. That's another thing I have a problem with. The least you could do is keep it ALL here. It's a scam pure and simple. Yep, that tax exempt status has allowed the churches to become "richer than god". 

Your going to have to have evidence of that false claim. Show me the beef, or bow out.

Skippy