Religion aside, because I've never brought that up in this topic, church going people have every right to express themselves. That's my whole point from the beginning. How it morphed into religion controlling government or vice-versa I don't know.
quote:ACLU works to ensure that this essential freedom is protected by keeping the government out of religion.The right to practice religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure that this essential freedom is protected by keeping the government out of religion. Learn more about how the ACLU works to preserve Freedom of Religion and Belief and take action to protect the rights guaranteed to all Americans.
Stolen.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/
That's two in one day, lol.
Now answer Mr. Hooberbloob's question.
I believe that a church or churches are a vital part of a community, but should not run the community. Churches are usually organizers of food drives and charitable activities. In a time of crisis, many times it's the local churches that gather resources and reach out to help people. A lot of homeless shelters are in churches or run by churches. They are a gathering place not only for their members, but for weddings and funerals as well. Plus, many churches are architectural works of art, contributing to the overall aesthetics of a community. We're seeing less and less of that now, but look at some of the older churches and you'll see what I mean.
That's about where their involvement should end. Having enough political pull to cause a business owner to be rejected for an alcohol license is wrong. Having the power to sway an election is wrong. Having enough influence to have laws passed for them is wrong.
Churches play an important role in the community and they should focus on that role, not try to get involved in running the community as we've seen in the Shoals.
quote:Originally posted by NashBama:quote:ACLU works to ensure that this essential freedom is protected by keeping the government out of religion.The right to practice religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure that this essential freedom is protected by keeping the government out of religion. Learn more about how the ACLU works to preserve Freedom of Religion and Belief and take action to protect the rights guaranteed to all Americans.
Stolen.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/
That's two in one day, lol.
Now answer Mr. Hooberbloob's question.
I believe that a church or churches are a vital part of a community, but should not run the community. Churches are usually organizers of food drives and charitable activities. In a time of crisis, many times it's the local churches that gather resources and reach out to help people. A lot of homeless shelters are in churches or run by churches. They are a gathering place not only for their members, but for weddings and funerals as well. Plus, many churches are architectural works of art, contributing to the overall aesthetics of a community. We're seeing less and less of that now, but look at some of the older churches and you'll see what I mean.
That's about where their involvement should end. Having enough political pull to cause a business owner to be rejected for an alcohol license is wrong. Having the power to sway an election is wrong. Having enough influence to have laws passed for them is wrong.
Churches play an important role in the community and they should focus on that role, not try to get involved in running the community as we've seen in the Shoals.
Nash, it was not stolen!!! I put up what they were and stood for.Go back to bed and get your sleep. Thanks for putting the link so he can see for himself.I failed to put QUOTE.
Yes, thanks Nash, now I see it for what it is - ACLU rhetoric.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
Yes, thanks Nash, now I see it for what it is - ACLU rhetoric.
ACLU rhetoric? No more then right wing rhetoric!
PBA - It was my understanding that you had information about an actual church in the United States that has used the assistance of the ACLU. Instead you quote some inane paragraph from their website. I understand that we need a far left to balance out the far right. However, don't pee in my ear and tell me it raining.
quote:Originally posted by Schnauzer:
Show me where in the constitution it states "separation of church and state"? That concept is not in there. If you want true separation of church and state then you need to only elect atheist because they are the only ones that don't have any religious beliefs and they are the only ones that will not let any religious beliefs influence their decisions.
I believe what the separation of church and state means is that the state cannot interfere with ANY religion being Christian or other. But to take the influence of religion out of government then you must get rid of all the people that are religious.
Just because you don't agree with what church members have to say doesn't mean they have to be quiet. They have as much right to peaceful protest, petition the Gov., and voice their opinions as you do.
The constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".
You argument only applies to the second part, "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".
The first part seems quite clear that the Government shall not legislate any religion into law. If you are trying to impose your religious belief onto others via the government I say that is against the constitution.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
I don't think this topic reflects true events at all. Churches in America are not trying to control anybody. They are trying to be an influence on the community, just like any other organization that has a cause. The church is comprised of citizens who have every right to free speech, just as the ACLU.
If you want an example of a religion trying to control a society, then go to Iran or Syria and you will see the difference.
This is simply not true.
Sorry, but I was born here and grew up here. I've seen religion legislated into law in this state *many* times.
Examples:
Blue laws. When I was a kid it was illegal for most businesses to be open open on Sunday.
Alcohol bans
Sex toy bans
same-sex marriage bans
etc.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
PBA - It was my understanding that you had information about an actual church in the United States that has used the assistance of the ACLU. Instead you quote some inane paragraph from their website. I understand that we need a far left to balance out the far right. However, don't pee in my ear and tell me it raining.
Why should pba do what you ask? I seriously doubt that any such citation would pass muster with you. You seem to have already made up your mind about what the ACLU is and what it does. Why should reality affect that?
If you truly want to know, it's quite simple to locate.
There has been some recent talk that Nevada may ban the currently legalized business of prostitution. Should the morality of such come into play? I would think it should.
I don't care what anyone says. The KKK can pontifify. The Black Panthers can pontifify. Anyone can say whatever they wish, legally, as long as they don't use profanity. I don't have to listen.
If A's speech isn't free, then B's isn't. If B's speech isn't free, then C's isn't. It's a slipperly slope.
As for the van with the loudspeaker, I assume Sheffield has a noise ordinance. I would call the police in future.
I don't care what anyone says. The KKK can pontifify. The Black Panthers can pontifify. Anyone can say whatever they wish, legally, as long as they don't use profanity. I don't have to listen.
If A's speech isn't free, then B's isn't. If B's speech isn't free, then C's isn't. It's a slipperly slope.
As for the van with the loudspeaker, I assume Sheffield has a noise ordinance. I would call the police in future.
Churches in America are not trying to control anybody.
Mr. Hooberbloob,
If Churches are not trying to control then explain why Alabama is far right conservative.
Mr. Hooberbloob,
If Churches are not trying to control then explain why Alabama is far right conservative.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by beternU:
Taciturn argues:
[QUOTE] If , on the other hand, some church decides that whatever that particular sin is, should not even be avaliable to the community at large, that is control.
A recent example is the alcohol sales on Sunday.[QUOTE]
beternU: Go back & read the post. That WAS NOT me that made the statement you just quoted!!!!! Those words belong to excelman.
Get your post correct before you quote someone!
Taciturn argues:
[QUOTE] If , on the other hand, some church decides that whatever that particular sin is, should not even be avaliable to the community at large, that is control.
A recent example is the alcohol sales on Sunday.[QUOTE]
beternU: Go back & read the post. That WAS NOT me that made the statement you just quoted!!!!! Those words belong to excelman.
Get your post correct before you quote someone!
Propaganda is not reality logical. PBA can't answer my question because his statement was untrue. I never really expected an answer from him, was just callimg him out on it.
Just because Alabama is not far left, it does not make it far right, pba.
All these laws logical is talking about were voted on by American citizens, where and if they go to church is irrelevant. You can say what you want, but everyones beliefs or lack thereof affect how they vote. It's a system that has worked just fine for over 200 years and all the talking in the world on this forum is not going to change it.
Just because Alabama is not far left, it does not make it far right, pba.
All these laws logical is talking about were voted on by American citizens, where and if they go to church is irrelevant. You can say what you want, but everyones beliefs or lack thereof affect how they vote. It's a system that has worked just fine for over 200 years and all the talking in the world on this forum is not going to change it.
quote:Originally posted by logical:
The constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".
You argument only applies to the second part, "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".
The first part seems quite clear that the Government shall not legislate any religion into law. If you are trying to impose your religious belief onto others via the government I say that is against the constitution.
Logical, that only states that the Government cannot establish a religion, it does not state that they cannot pass a law that a religion believes in.
Here are several laws that is religious in nature that the US Supreme Court has stated that are constitutional.
1. Can only have one spouse at at time.
2. Local Governments can pass laws of morality.
3. Prohibition was a constitutional amendment then appealed. they they said that local governments can decide for themselves.
I am sure if someone dug deep enough there may be hundreds of laws that has passed the supreme courts test and are legal, and still religious in nature.
You can never take religion out of the government, but you have to keep the government out of religion, because you see, you can't have morality without God. If you don't have God then the moral issue simply becomes an opinion thought up by man.
quote:Originally posted by Schnauzer:
you can't have morality without God. If you don't have God then the moral issue simply becomes an opinion thought up by man.
I am an atheist and don't have an urge to rape, pillage and plunder. How is that possible?
One more time!! GoFish is an ATHEIST!!! 
THE MORE THINGS CHANGE.... THE MORE THEY REMAIN THE SAME...
I was watching a special on Columbus last night. Columbus and his crew had befriended a group of indians...
They then attempted to convert them over to the christian point of view...when the chief would not accept christ has his savior...they decided he must die by being burned alive...
As they prepared him for his death by fire...they gave him one last change to repent and accept christ...this would save him...as they told him only christians make it into heaven...
The Chief's response was simple and realistic from his point of view..."NO! I don't won't to meet anymore christians!"..
Somethings never change...
I was watching a special on Columbus last night. Columbus and his crew had befriended a group of indians...
They then attempted to convert them over to the christian point of view...when the chief would not accept christ has his savior...they decided he must die by being burned alive...
As they prepared him for his death by fire...they gave him one last change to repent and accept christ...this would save him...as they told him only christians make it into heaven...
The Chief's response was simple and realistic from his point of view..."NO! I don't won't to meet anymore christians!"..
Somethings never change...
quote:Originally posted by traderconnections:
"NO! I don't won't to meet anymore christians!".
PBA, hear is your answer about one reason we don't allow gambling in Alabama, and also read the headlines underneath it http://indianz.com/News/2005/008254.asp