Skip to main content

Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion "Ask a Catholic...." begun by our Forum Friend, David -- he, David, wrote about the Roman Catholic censure called Excommunication, i.e., removal from the church community.

Let me begin by stating that what I am writing is not, in any way, intended to be derogatory toward my Roman Catholic Friends; but, is my opinion concerning their tradition of placing the Roman Catholic church and its leaders in a position, or in an apparent position, of higher authority than God's Written Word, the Bible.

And, I will state that I believe the ultimate goal, both for the Roman Catholic church and for the Bible-centered Protestant churches, is to bring about reconciliation between the person who has strayed -- and God.

In an earlier post David tells Jan, "There are two types of excommunication: (1) Formal: imposed publicly upon a person by legitimate authority; and (2) Informal; imposed by the laws of the Church automatically once the law has been violated."

Then, David continues explaining the Roman Catholic church's "Grounds for Excommunication."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1. Apostasy from the faith.

2. Heresy

3. Schism

4. The deliberate desecration of the Blessed Sacrament, throwing away the Host or Precious Blood, or the stealing of the Blessed Sacrament to be used in a sacrilegious manner.

5. One who uses physical force against the Roman Pontiff or Bishop.

6. A priest who attempts to absolve his accomplice in a sin against the 6th Commandment.

7. Anyone who is not validly ordained attempting to celebrate Mass.

8. Any priest or layman who hears a sacramental confession but has not been given the faculty to give valid absolution by the local ordinary.

9. A bishop who consecrates someone a bishop and the person who receives the consecration from a bishop without a direct mandate from the Pope.

10. A validly ordained priest who violates the seal of sacramental confession.

11. One who falsely accuses a confessor before an ecclesiastical superior.

12. A cleric who attempts to get married.

13. A person who has taken perpetual vows and attempts marriage.

14. A person who procures a successful abortion.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not sure if anyone else noticed; but, I see a huge RED FLAG! Except for a brief mention of the Sixth Commandment, "Thou shall not kill" (in 6 and 14 above) -- this whole list of "offenses" relate ONLY to a person's relationship with the Roman Catholic church, the Pope, the bishops, the mass, and their church traditions and rituals.

No mention of God, Jesus Christ, the Bible, etc. All the reasons given for being removed from the Roman Catholic church is based upon and around that church and it's human leaders -- NOT God and/or our relationship to God.

What offenses does the Bible list as reasons for expulsion from the fellowship? In 1 Corinthians 5:11, Paul begins with incest and sexual immorality, being an immoral person, covetousness, idolatry, and being a reviler, drunkard, or swindler. In 2 Thessalonians 3:6, Paul warns against the person who leads an unruly life, a life which does not conform to Christian teachings.

And, in 2 Thessalonians 10:20-21, Paul warns against joining in pagan worship and partaking of pagan pleasures. There are others, but, you will notice that these are ALL sins against God; not against earthly church organizations or earthly church leaders.

The Bible tells us, in Matthew 18:15-17, that if a brother/sister in Christ sins -- we are to go to that person and reprove him in person. If he refuses to listen, take several elders with you to reprove him. If this fails, bring him before the congregation. If he still refuses to change, have no fellowship with him. Is that the end?

No. In 1 Corinthians 5:5 we read, "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Whoa! That sounds pretty harsh! Just what did the apostle Paul mean in this Scripture verse?

Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, explains 1 Corinthians 5:5 in his commentary: http://www.blueletterbible.org...rinthians&ar=1Cr_5_5

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Confronting Immorality in the Church

(c.) How could they deliver such a one to Satan? By putting him outside the church, into the world, which is the devil’s “domain.” The punishment is a removal of spiritual protection and social comfort, not an infliction of evil. (i.) God often protects us from the attacks of Satan, even when we never knew about the attacks (Job 1:10, Luke 22:31-32).

(e.) That his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus: The goal of the discipline is clear: the salvation, not the destruction, of his spirit. Though this man’s conduct was clearly sinful, and needed severe correction, Paul does not write him off as forever lost – the effective use of church discipline may yet see him to salvation (restoration).

(i.) All discipline in the church is to be carried out in this attitude of restoration, not condemnation. As Paul also wrote, And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:14-15).

(ii.) “Church discipline is not a group of ‘pious policemen’ out to catch a criminal. Rather, it is a group of brokenhearted brothers and sisters seeking to restore an erring member of the family.” (Warren Wiersbe)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, David, and all of our Forum Friends -- we always place GOD FIRST, not ANY church organization or church leaders. All sin is against God, not the church organization nor its leaders.

We find, in Romans 11:36, "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."

And, in 1 Timothy 1:17, "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 5:12-13, "'Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.' And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.''"

It is God to whom we give honor and glory -- NOT any church, NOT any church leaders. We give respect to our church organization and to our church leaders -- but, all honor and glory and spiritual recognition goes only for and to our Lord God.

When a brother/sister sins against God, we do what we can to bring that brother/sister back into step with GOD, not the church. And, we do not "excommunicate" or "ban" them forever. Instead, we do what is necessary, sometimes even denying them fellowship as the apostle Paul wrote, in order that we may bring them into spiritual communion with God once again.

I pray this clears up any misunderstandings relating to our relationship to our church and church leaders -- and our relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SOLA_Outline-1d
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
I pray this clears up any misunderstandings relating to our relationship to our church and church leaders -- and our relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.



Feel free to disagree, Bill, but it's not accurate to assume because it's not what YOU think, that it must be an understanding.
The Church is abundantly clear on these issues.
Got a problem with it? Take it up with up with the Pope.
Seriously....write him a letter. Tell him all the beefs you have with the Church. I'm sure he would be most receptive.
I can't speak for David, but I know that I am sick or your constant assault on all things Catholic. We have exhausted the topic.
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
.....and quit calling me your forum friend, it sounds fake.

Hi David,

If you will go back and finish reading paragraph one of my post (I realize it is hard to read such a long paragraph) -- you will find that I wrote, "our Forum Friend, David."

Regardless, I do consider you MY Forum Friend -- even if you do not reciprocate.

And, as I wrote, I just want us to be clear on Biblical teachings versus Roman Catholic doctrines.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
I pray this clears up any misunderstandings relating to our relationship to our church and church leaders -- and our relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Feel free to disagree, Bill, but it's not accurate to assume because it's not what YOU think, that it must be an understanding.
The Church is abundantly clear on these issues.
Got a problem with it? Take it up with up with the Pope. Seriously....write him a letter. Tell him all the beefs you have with the Church. I'm sure he would be most receptive.
I can't speak for David, but I know that I am sick or your constant assault on all things Catholic. We have exhausted the topic.

Hi VP,

If what I "assume" is in error -- please feel free to give me Biblical proof along with your personal explanation of that Scripture.

When I write to your pope; should I also copy Obama on it? If I am going to waste toilet paper; why not cover all bases?

And, I will leave you with these thoughts:

Proverbs 21:9 - Proverbs 21:19 - Proverbs 25:24 - Proverbs 26:21 - Proverbs 27:15 - 1 Corinthians 11:16

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROSS-BIBLE_SOLA_Outline-1d
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just my two cents, If someone if of the Jehovah Witness faith, they have to marry another one or they get kicked out..........
The family actually disowns them.

Bill, Catholicism is not your faith, why do you harp on it?


b,

I've spent some time lately researching the "Church" of Scientology. Disassociation is an essential part of that organization. It's also one of it's largest problems.

An initiate may not communicate with parents, friends, or others who disapprove of Scientology. Which is dammm near everyone. Except for children of Scientologists, almost every new convert experiences such disassociation.

Y'all know I disagree with the Abrahamic faiths, but their adherents are not necessarily wack.

Scientologists are wack. Every freakin' one of them. Only a fool could be gullible enough to buy into that steaming pile of nonsense.

But fools exist, and Scientology is expert in taking advantage of them.

I would not actively intervene in anyone's choice of religion, with the exception of Scientology. I would do everything intellectually possible to prevent anyone for whom I have affection from become caught up in that wicked cult.

OK, Creationists, too. They're as wack as Scientologists. Maybe more so.

Scientology destroys families. It impoverishes converts. It demands slavish devotion to the nonsensical musings of an insane science fiction writer*.

Expect us.


nsns


*Tommy Davis is a bald faced liar. Dig this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0AFVVToZsY

Busted.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just my two cents, If someone if of the Jehovah Witness faith, they have to marry another one or they get kicked out..........
The family actually disowns them.

Bill, Catholicism is not your faith, why do you harp on it?


because it scares him.
because there's a whole group of people , in the billions, who aren't even a little interested in what bill has to say.

it's not like another protestant, who might listen for a few minutes because their faiths are so similar.. bill starts his anti catholic rant, and the catholics al lgo ' yeah.. whatEV and leave him ranting, impotent, ignore, and he doesn't know how to deal with a whole denomination writing him off as usless.

catholics need bill like a fish needs a bicycle.
and he can't cope... so he attacks every chance... heck he invents situations to attack, like this one.
he has such a desperate need to be right he creates situations where he is always right.

that's why he never addresses issues unless HE starts them. he never answer questions
because he is terrified of being wrong.

in other words - bill gray is a typical school yard bully.
homophobic because he thinks some guys have cute butts.
aggressive and tenacious because he is a coward and afraid inside and dosen't want anyone else to know it.
quote:
When I write to your pope; should I also copy Obama on it? If I am going to waste toilet paper; why not cover all bases?


Keep on showing your ignorance....


But I do believe you should tell the Pope and the 1.2 kazillion Catholics around the world how Bill Gray knows they are practicing a non-Biblical faith.
Gosh, you could enlighten the whole freaking world. Why haven't you?
2000 years of Catholicism, 1.2 Billion practicing Catholics around the world.
And Bill Gray has all the answers.
Laughable, really.
Bill said:
quote:
And, we do not "excommunicate" or "ban" them forever.


when Jank asked me about her mother and possible excommunication, that's was a very specific question. Jank did not ask me to explain the doctirn of excommunication.

The doctrine is VERY lengthy....

But, I will say this excommunication does not have to be permanent.

From catholicanswers.com
"Excommunication of laypeople principally means that they are cut off from receiving the sacraments. It does not mean that the Church is condemning a person to hell. In fact, excommunication is intended to be a medicine to inspire people to repent and be reconciled to the Church. Once reconciled to the Church, that person may again receive the sacraments. If an excommunicated person dies without being formally reconciled to the Church, he can be saved if he truly and sincerely repents all of his mortal sins before death. Certainly we may pray that a person in these circumstances be interiorly reconciled to God and the Church through full repentance before death."
Last edited by House of David
quote:
this whole list of "offenses" relate ONLY to a person's relationship with the Roman Catholic church, the Pope, the bishops, the mass, and their church traditions and rituals.


Really Bill? Would you keep someone in your church who has committed these acts against one of your preachers, deacons, or other leader?


1. 2 and 3 all pertain to being blasphemous or causing dissent in the church. Seems logical to kick them out.

4. Stealing and using items in a blasphemous way. Logical.

5. Attacking some one. Yep, logical.

6. Guilty as sin, yep he goes.

7. False leader, kick him out.

8. False pretenses, out he goes.

9. Violating the chain of command, yep.

10. Blabbermouth, he goes.

11. A liar, oops, bye-bye.

12. Promised to be single.

13. Ditto

14. Killing the innocent, yep, goodbye.
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
So, David, and all of our Forum Friends

sounds inclusive to me. Like your calling me your friend... maybe I'm reading that wrong.

Well, David,

I do consider you my Christian Friend. Am I not your Christian Friend?

But, if you will look at what I wrote: So, David, and all of our Forum Friends -- you will see that I put you separately -- and, then addressed all of OUR (as in yours and mine) Forum Friends.

But, that aside -- I do consider you my Christian Friend. If this offends you, please let me know and I will not call you Friend again.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1_-_Friends_Chrisian_Fish
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,

The whole point is, I do not believe your sincerity when you say "forum friends."

But I will drop it... it's not a big deal

Hi David,

But, you did not answer my questions:

Am I your Christian Friend or not?

Do you want me to stop calling you Friend?

Regardless of how you answer these questions; I do not doubt your sincerity. Why do you doubt mine -- because I disagree with you on doctrine?

Is that a reason to doubt a person's sincerity?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,

What is your deffinition of friend?


HoD,

I hope you consider me a forum friend. We disagree, rather profoundly, but I can't threaten you with hell, or non-participation in the Rapture. Those are silly.

We've engaged in some pretty important discussions as scholars. I appreciate that. Naturally, you're still a cannibal, but hey, there are worse things.

Best,

nsns
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,

What is your deffinition of friend?


HoD,

I hope you consider me a forum friend. We disagree, rather profoundly, but I can't threaten you with hell, or non-participation in the Rapture. Those are silly.

We've engaged in some pretty important discussions as scholars. I appreciate that. Naturally, you're still a cannibal, but hey, there are worse things.

Best,

nsns


NSNS,

We're friends Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Just my two cents, If someone if of the Jehovah Witness faith, they have to marry another one or they get kicked out..........
The family actually disowns them.


I have a family member that is Baptist & married a Jehovah Witness. She didn't get kicked out or disowned by her family.
Don't know how she managed it.
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Bill, What is your definition of friend?

Hi David,

Well, besides my family -- I would say that all Christian brothers and sister in Christ -- are my Friends. Yet, even though most of my Friends are Christian believers, I do have many Friends who are not Christian.

These are folks with whom I can have discussions: agree, disagree, or agree to disagree -- without causing division. Many I know personally. Others I know through my writings on different venues. But, each I do hold close and consider them my Friend.

What does Friend mean to you?

Do you refuse to be Friends with a person who rejects your Roman Catholic beliefs?

To be honest with you, I have found that to be true of many Roman Catholics. I have Roman Catholic acquaintances who act friendly -- until he/she finds out I will not accept the teachings of his/her church. Then, the animosity juices begins to flow.

One such friend used to work with my wife. At functions such as parties, etc., he and I would have long talks. At one Christmas party, we talked for about an hour. Mostly, I let him talk.

The next week he e-mailed me and I responded, refuting his church teachings. He was shocked. He sent me an e-mail saying, "This is what I told you at the party." What he could not grasp is that I could be polite enough to allow him to share his beliefs that evening without jumping all over him. There is a time and a place for all things -- and the party was not that time or place.

He got mad and would not dialogue with me anymore. It was, "Either you agree with me -- or we will not communicate!" So, I deleted him from my e-mail list.

David, is that the kind of person I have to be, one that will just listen and never refute your teachings -- for us to be Friends?

If so, then I guess you will not call me your Friend.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1_-_Friends_Chrisian_Fish
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,

What is your deffinition of friend?


HoD,

I hope you consider me a forum friend. We disagree, rather profoundly, but I can't threaten you with hell, or non-participation in the Rapture. Those are silly.

We've engaged in some pretty important discussions as scholars. I appreciate that. Naturally, you're still a cannibal, but hey, there are worse things.

Best,

nsns


yeah.. he might pick his nose in public or wipe his nose on his sleeve.
eeeewwwww
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

He got mad and would not dialogue with me anymore. It was, "Either you agree with me -- or we will not communicate!"



OOooohhh... so that's where you picked up that habit.


i dunno about him, but i am not friends with someone who lies so much you have to wade throught their words to figure how what is and what is not a lie.
i cannot be friends with someone who claims to be my brother in christ, and then at every chance attacks me.
i'd left you alone for a while, bill. i'd decided you weren't worth the effort.
then you started back in, attacking every little post i made.

so i stopped leaving you alone. and here we are.

so, no bill. i am not your friend. i never will be. you lie, you twist the word of god for your own purposes. you attack and insult when it isn't called for.
it should mean something to you when everyone agrees that the atheists behave more christianly than the fundementalist christian, but sadly the only thing it says to you is that we are all hellbound.
i am not your brother in Christ because i do not believe you know Christ at all. from the words you've written on this forum, i don't believe that Christ will admit to knowing you either.
quote:
He got mad and would not dialogue with me anymore. It was, "Either you agree with me -- or we will not communicate!" So, I deleted him from my e-mail list.


I can totally empathize with that guy. Because from what I have witnessed on this Forum, you are quite disrespectful to Catholics. You don't have to accept our doctrine. You also don't have to pummel it into the pavement. Your animosity is transparent, and your words are usually dripping with sarcasm.
I don't blame him for not wanting to "dialogue" with you, because you do not dialogue- you are a constant monologue. Heck, most of the peeps on this forum don't really want to dialogue with you. What does this tell you???

Now, as far as the friendship thing goes,
the word "FRIEND" connotes respect and kindness. You have shown no "friendship" to people defending their faith. You can justify yourself all the way home by saying you just must refute what you feel to be false teachings, but you are not willing to admit that the Catholic Church is Christ centered, and a valid and worthy denomination.
So I would say, no wonder that dude didn't want to talk to you. You make a mockery of his faith.
Consider that.
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
Bill said:
quote:
And, we do not "excommunicate" or "ban" them forever.


when Jank asked me about her mother and possible excommunication, that's was a very specific question. Jank did not ask me to explain the doctirn of excommunication.

The doctrine is VERY lengthy....

But, I will say this excommunication does not have to be permanent.

From catholicanswers.com
"Excommunication of laypeople principally means that they are cut off from receiving the sacraments. It does not mean that the Church is condemning a person to hell. In fact, excommunication is intended to be a medicine to inspire people to repent and be reconciled to the Church. Once reconciled to the Church, that person may again receive the sacraments. If an excommunicated person dies without being formally reconciled to the Church, he can be saved if he truly and sincerely repents all of his mortal sins before death. Certainly we may pray that a person in these circumstances be interiorly reconciled to God and the Church through full repentance before death."


HOD,

It was my late Mother-in-law. Not my Mother. Just wanted that to be said. Smiler

Carry on,
We have a paradox here.

I shall try and explain it once more.

The apparent argument against Bro Bill is; his recipe for staying out of hell provides for the rest of our religions to surely get us there in hell.

For anyone to argue to the contrary , one must claim your particular brand allows for everyone else going to hell.

To claim Bill is wrong to send everyone to hell is an indictment of yourselves.

The only logical conclusion is; a model where manmade religions determine the roster for hell, everyone is condemned to go there by the other and everyone goes to hell.

Since the atheist religion does not believe in hell, by default they bust it wide open.

Who will be the greatest in that kingdom? muhahaha
quote:
Originally posted by midacts:
It seems to me that all Bill is asking from his forum friends that are of the Roman Catholic faith is for a biblical explanation for certain doctrines.


and in some other thread he was given biblical explanations

at which point TheBill covered his face and hid from the answer and told us that that it was just a bunch of scripture and didn't explain anything.

you can't explain anything to TheBill, because if it isn't his explanation then it is just lies and meaningless.
he isn't interested in explanations.
he isn't interested in learning.
he isn't interested in teaching.
the only thing he wants to do is vomit his version of the truth in huge posts where he answers his own questions and thereby proves that his is the only true interpretation of the bible.
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Methinks BillTheGreatAndTerrible just kinda has a thing for guys named "David."

The screen name does not refer to gender.
It's a reference to the davidic line.
My blood type is AB+ and people with AB+ blood like to joke they are related to Jesus.

I'm female.

Hi David,

I had that feeling. But, I knew if I suggested it -- a few of my dearest Forum Friends would start screaming, "Male chauvinist!" -- as they have so many times. So, I just kept my mouth (or typing fingers) shut.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
I'm A-. But I AM related to Crazy Horse!

Hi O,

Believe it or not -- Wyatt Earp and his brothers are my cousins. When a lady first told me that, I shrugged it off. Yet, in doing genealogical research, I found it to be true.

Yet, the relation I am proudest of is that Jesus Christ has made me a "joint heir" with Him in the Family of God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Family2_Blue-1_FAMILY
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
quote:
Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Methinks BillTheGreatAndTerrible just kinda has a thing for guys named "David."



The screen name does not refer to gender.
It's a reference to the davidic line.
My blood type is AB+ and people with AB+ blood like to joke they are related to Jesus.

I'm female.




i'm O+. i'm a dude.
and that's an awsome fairy piccy you posted.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×