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The truth is, everyone is a little bit right and a lot more wrong about it. When the two sides come together and get their egos out the way, maybe a solution will come. Until then, it's the same old, same old....


I am trying to figure out if you are Rodney King or a teacher.

Every profession has sorry people in it....the only difference is Teachers are the only ones that the boss can do nothing about. How many teachers are in jail and still getting a pay check....I get so tired of hearing teachers talk about being so over worked and under paid.

How about that 3 month paid vacation you get every summer....I wish my company over worked me like that.
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Originally posted by dolemitejb:
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Your argument is circular. you must love god and country, as long as someone else is paying for it. I suppose you also pass the plate along as others tithe.

the same folks who do not want to support the mil tax are the same ones who are anti lottery due to moral reasons while they drive there gas sucking luxury suv's to be seen at church on sunday and defend bp for polluting the gulf as just the cost of doing business.


I have no idea what you're talking about, and no, there is nothing circular about my argument. Another poster called those who voted against a tax increase "idiots." I pointed out the problem with his statement, and you concluded I must never send my children to public schools.

I don't drive an SUV, haven't defended BP, support legal gambling, and (regretably) don't go to church on Sunday. So again, I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm against people stealing my paycheck because they think they can spend it better than I can. It's a simple idea.



So WHO do you EXPECT to fund the schools you send your children to?

WHO do you EXPECT to pave the roads on which you drive?


until we vote in a lottery and eliminate sales tax on food in alabama, what better solution do we have to fund education?
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but it is telling that you believe people voting to keep the money they've earned qualifies those people as "idiots."


No, of course not. this past renewal was strictly for education and nothing else. To pull that money away at this point would be a horrible blow to our Shoals schools as evidenced by the cuts and mayhem going on in Madison where it didn't pass.

Now, if the Alabama lawmakers were calling for an ADDITIONAL tax for the general fund and even if some of that went to education, I'd be fighting it, too. But that was a renewal.

Alabama does need to learn to live within their means. But education in Alabama does live within their means (in fact, required by law to do so).

You and I obviously disagree that educating our children should be a top priority. That is very sad.
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How about that 3 month paid vacation you get every summer....I wish my company over worked me like that.


I suggest you go to school for 4 years and get your teaching degree. Apply for a job and hopefully you will get hired. Teach 25 to 35 kids everyday for 180 days. Then you too can have a 2 month (not 3) unpaid vacation. During this vacation you will either go back to graduate school to get a higher degree, go to numerous workshops, go to school to clean your classroom and get ready for the next group of "excellent scholars". You don't get to pick which ones are in your class so you may get some good ones, some so-so ones and some plain horrible ones. You have to treat them all the same and hope that some of what you are trying to get across makes it to their brain. It's a mighty thank-less job - being a teacher, but I know many that wouldn't have done anything else. They love it and are proud to be teachers.
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Originally posted by barksdale.jeff:
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The truth is, everyone is a little bit right and a lot more wrong about it. When the two sides come together and get their egos out the way, maybe a solution will come. Until then, it's the same old, same old....


I am trying to figure out if you are Rodney King or a teacher.

Every profession has sorry people in it....the only difference is Teachers are the only ones that the boss can do nothing about. How many teachers are in jail and still getting a pay check....I get so tired of hearing teachers talk about being so over worked and under paid.

How about that 3 month paid vacation you get every summer....I wish my company over worked me like that.


Once again, teachers catching the blame. Barksdale, you make my point so well. Thanks for that. I could not have said it better.

FYI, bosses can do something to teachers. The tenure law simply guarantees due process. And obviously you haven't been keeping up with the news, the legislature changed the law (and I'm so glad they did) that if a teacher is convicted of a felony, they lose their pay. I actually agree with you on this one - it was crazy for convicted felons to continue getting paid while sitting in jail. There again, not teachers fault though - poorly written law, but teachers catch the blame anyway. You make that point for me too.

And, thank you only14u for clearing up that "paid summer vacation" nonsense.
"How about each community having its own 1 room school?"

And pay the old-maid school teacher with a chicken and some ears of corn!! Sometimes it seems that is what the public thinks a teacher should make.

People on here have railed about AEA being a teachers union that protects the interests of teachers. No, I don't agree with everything that AEA sets forth, but they brought the Alabama school teacher out of the gutter.

I would like to know something - how many of you AEA haters are members of a union at your place of employment?? Years ago when Reynolds, Ford and TVA were in their heyday around here, they were all UNION. The men and women who worked at those places made sure that their children and friends children were taken care of. They went on strike when they didn't like something the company was proposing and ususally got most of what the wanted. I have heard numerous stories about men that slept most of their shift at Reynolds and still got paid that handsome salary, and stayed employed until they retired. But of course that's different, because the public wasn't paying their salary, like they do the teachers. Bull - whatever product was made by that person the cost was passed down to me, the consumer!

As I stated, if you think it's such a cushy job with great perks, benefits and "paid" vacations - UNA or Athens State have a great teachers education program. You can probably still enroll for the summer session tomorrow.
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Originally posted by only14u:
"How about each community having its own 1 room school?"

And pay the old-maid school teacher with a chicken and some ears of corn!! Sometimes it seems that is what the public thinks a teacher should make.

People on here have railed about AEA being a teachers union that protects the interests of teachers. No, I don't agree with everything that AEA sets forth, but they brought the Alabama school teacher out of the gutter.

I would like to know something - how many of you AEA haters are members of a union at your place of employment?? Years ago when Reynolds, Ford and TVA were in their heyday around here, they were all UNION. The men and women who worked at those places made sure that their children and friends children were taken care of. They went on strike when they didn't like something the company was proposing and ususally got most of what the wanted. I have heard numerous stories about men that slept most of their shift at Reynolds and still got paid that handsome salary, and stayed employed until they retired. But of course that's different, because the public wasn't paying their salary, like they do the teachers. Bull - whatever product was made by that person the cost was passed down to me, the consumer!

As I stated, if you think it's such a cushy job with great perks, benefits and "paid" vacations - UNA or Athens State have a great teachers education program. You can probably still enroll for the summer session tomorrow.


You go girl !
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People on here have railed about AEA being a teachers union that protects the interests of teachers. No, I don't agree with everything that AEA sets forth, but they brought the Alabama school teacher out of the gutter.


You have to be kidding......Just about 6 months ago they had a figure online that it costs the state about 67,000.00 per teacher to the AEA. You will say that the teachers sure dont get that money...well no matter who is getting that money that is what it costs the tax payers(me and you) so when someone starts spouting off about its only a penny more per dollar to make a better education for our children....that pisses me off....spend the 67k a better way first!
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I suggest you go to school for 4 years and get your teaching degree. Apply for a job and hopefully you will get hired. Teach 25 to 35 kids everyday for 180 days. Then you too can have a 2 month (not 3) unpaid vacation


OMG....only a 2 month vacation....it is paid...why oohhh why do teachers try to pull that.

you have a base salary....you can either take that on a 12 mo or 9 mo pay is this still correct?

I would be willing to bet that base pay for a full time teacher is alot more than most make.
The average starting salary is 31k and average is 40k.

Try finding a job in florence that pays thats and gives you two months off.....that dog wont hunt here.

You talk about unions....I was in a union one time and would never be again unless i HAD to. The union takes people that shouldnt have a job picking up garbage and pays them crazy money for doing what you can train a monkey to do. They were good for a time but that time has come and gone. I would like to see how long an industry lasts after a union reps it.
You have to be kidding. The AEA and Paul Hubbard have done more to hurt this state than they have ever done to help it. I remember getting into a discussion years ago when the governor was standing before us telling us the "apocalypse" we were about to face unless we raised taxes. It did not happen, so instead with the urging of Mr. Hubbard he went around the measure and allowed the counties to increase the tax on homes and property in a yearly reassessment. I saw my property taxes double, and then they went after such things as boat docks and retention walls on the lake.
Since that time we have continued to hear more and more that the education system is going broke, "we need more tax money"...blah, blah, blah.
While on Hwy 72 from Killen to Athens we can see at least two example of new construction going on at high schools, and I do not begrudge it, there must be something coming from someone's pockets.
What does a teacher in Alabama pay as union dues each month? $35, $40, or $45 dollars? Multiply that by every teacher member in the State, and then by twelve and you can see why Hubbard is able to wield the powerful stick he uses to direct the government of Alabama. In reality he probably has more power than the governor and he is not even an elected official.
I do not claim to be a prt of any union. When I moved here many years ago I was told the story of how the unions had decimated the area's businesses and caused the loss of many of the factories here. They had their place many years ago, and their acheivements are noteworthy, but in the competitive market of today they are doing more harm than good.
If the teachers (like any other employee with a great benefit package (retirment, cheap health insurance, great holidays) thinks they have it too hard, they should just give it up, there are plenty more waiting in the wings to take their place.
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4 years and get your teaching degree. Apply for a job and hopefully you will get hired. Teach 25 to 35 kids everyday for 180 days. Then you too can have a 2 month (not 3) unpaid vacation.


you are leaving out winter break and all federal and state holidays. Yes, they ARE paid vacations if you look at it from the outside where the rest of us live.

In Alabama, a 4 year graduate can starts at over 29k per year (masters degree grosses 34k starting). They pay almost nothing for excellent BC/BS health insurance. I pay 8k per year for family coverage. So that makes the teachers equivalent starting pay 37k.

Perhaps they do not actually get a "paycheck" during the summer months (do they? I don't know) but that is beside the point. They have the option of sitting on their butts all summer or getting a part time job during those 2 months which will only add to their yearly income.

Now toss in the paid holidays, life insurance, fantastic retirement plane and job security unknown to anyone in the corporate world and all other benefits and you end up with a starting salary of well over 40k per year and probably closer to 50k (especially when you consider the job security and retirement).

No, not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. some might consider it hard labor and horrible working conditions but people who want to be teachers are weird. They generally love their jobs, would not think of doing anything else and deserve every penny they make.

So don't tell me they are underpaid or make them out to be poor slaves working as cogs in the system. they are highly paid professionals.
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While on Hwy 72 from Killen to Athens we can see at least two example of new construction going on at high schools, and I do not begrudge it, there must be something coming from someone's pockets.



that is the result of free play money (they call it "stimulus) from the Obama administration and not from the state. It is specifically earmarked for school improvement and is 100% federally funded. Schools would be crazy for not taking advantage of it wherever available.
teyates - if you are going to talk about Dr. Hubbert, at least learn what his name isSmiler

Yes, teachers get a paycheck in the summer months. That is to ensure that their families eat during those months. Their pay is divided into 12 equal installments instead of 9 or 10.
Teachers in Alabama have very good insurance and retirement plans. Those are the direct result of the hard work Dr. Hubbert and AEA have done over the last 30 years.

I did not say teachers were underpaid - they have been in the past - I know some couples(both of them teachers) that actually qualified for food stamps. Yes, I know that other professions in Alabama also qualify for food stamps on their salaries. I think they should also make more money(policemen, firefighters).

You moaned about your property tax - Alabama has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, property tax in the nation. We will never progress as a state until this is changed.

Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher - yes there are teachers in the classroom now that should not be there. There are people in every job in America that have no business being there and don't get fired. Some of them are making the cars we drive, the food we eat, the gas we use to power those cars. You pay for all of those mistakes and bad employees also. It's just not laid out for you in black and white like a teachers salary and benefits are.

The bottom line is this - when there is not enough money coming from the state, county, city or where ever, cuts have to be made and the classroom teacher is it.

Thanks to a teacher you can read this forum and participate in engaging conversationSmiler
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Originally posted by only14u:
teyates - if you are going to talk about Dr. Hubbert, at least learn what his name isSmiler

Yes, teachers get a paycheck in the summer months. That is to ensure that their families eat during those months. Their pay is divided into 12 equal installments instead of 9 or 10.
Teachers in Alabama have very good insurance and retirement plans. Those are the direct result of the hard work Dr. Hubbert and AEA have done over the last 30 years.

I did not say teachers were underpaid - they have been in the past - I know some couples(both of them teachers) that actually qualified for food stamps. Yes, I know that other professions in Alabama also qualify for food stamps on their salaries. I think they should also make more money(policemen, firefighters).

You moaned about your property tax - Alabama has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, property tax in the nation. We will never progress as a state until this is changed.

Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher - yes there are teachers in the classroom now that should not be there. There are people in every job in America that have no business being there and don't get fired. Some of them are making the cars we drive, the food we eat, the gas we use to power those cars. You pay for all of those mistakes and bad employees also. It's just not laid out for you in black and white like a teachers salary and benefits are.

The bottom line is this - when there is not enough money coming from the state, county, city or where ever, cuts have to be made and the classroom teacher is it.

Thanks to a teacher you can read this forum and participate in engaging conversationSmiler

Sorry, as long as we both know who I am talking about, I will call him Bubba or whatever, he is still a crook and a villian to the people of Alabama. If I hear one more person talk about low property taxes are in this state I think I will go postal. Property taxes may be somewhat low compared to other areas, but we are also economically depressed. We also have huge car taxes (tags), business licenses for everything from dentistry to garage sales, and high sales taxes.
While in one breath you want to do away with taxes on groceries, you want to increase other's property tax. In this state most all of the retirees pay no state income tax if they worked for the state, railroad, or another government entity. Most are also exempt from property tax. I lived in a very affluent neighborhood where many of the older people there bragged about not paying taxes on their multimillion dollar homes. They were able to file exempt status for some reason or another.
Yes, the bottom line should be if you do not have enough money to do what you want, do not go and borrow it, or increase taxes. Make a tough choice and decide what needs to be cut, and then man up and do it.

Teachers have it pretty sweet compared to some professionals, and I know lots of people who would change places with them.
They deserve to be paid, but do not come to me and want more tax money because you have to teach 22 kids, rather than 20. Suck it up and do your job.

Sooner or later the people of the state are going to wise up and the AEA and Paul Hubbard (Hubbert, Bubba, or whatever) is going to lose their grip on the Legislature, and then maybe some real change will take place.
"Sooner or later the people of the state are going to wise up and the AEA and Paul Hubbard (Hubbert, Bubba, or whatever) is going to lose their grip on the Legislature, and then maybe some real change will take place."


I am interested in hearing what you would change about teachers -

Also are you this adamant about other aspects of your life? What have you done about high gas prices? The increase in milk prices, bread prices? The amount your doctor charges to care for your children or you? All of these and more come at you everyday wanting more money.

I don't think teachers are expecting a raise in this economic downturn. They will be paying more for insurance (yes, I know they don't pay much) they will be teaching more students. 99% are grateful to have a job, do their job wonderfully no matter how many students are present and do it with class.

It really boils down to this - If you haven't walked in their shoes you really don't know what you are talking about.
I have no problem with the teachers, that is the point I am trying to get across to you. What I have a problem with the inept self serving government beauracracy which represents them. How much money do you think the AEA spent in the last primary election? How much of that money could have been used to spare a teacher position at the schools?
The only reason "PH" throws this money willy-nilly at the prosepective candidates is so that he can control them when they get in office. If you cannot see this you are blind.
I have no problem with a lottery in this State if the people decide they want it, but that in essence is a voluntary tax on the constituents and not one levied unequally amongst the residents of the state.
Funny you talk about insurance. The BC/BS plan offered to educators in the state is excellent, and my guess is that you pay less than a $100 a month for that insurance (out of pocket). Some of us pay over $1000 for lesser coverage thru the same company. I deal with insurance everyday and see how they favor one group over another, and compared to most in Alabama, they have an excellent plan, probably worth as much as $15K on the market (as an added benefit).
I am just as adamant about high taxes on gas, and believe that once again it is the government trying to steal from its people. I get especially irritated when I drive down the road and see a road project that should have taken 2 years drag on for more than 10, and as you drive by there are four men standing on a shovel. My tax dollars at work.
Bread and milk, once again, they are expensive, but I can have a choice whether I want to buy the 1/2 gallon or the day old bread and save myself some money, I don't have that option with taxes.
Doctors and hospitals have not seen a cost of living increase in reimbursement in many years, most make less today than ten years ago for the same work, and the work loads have increased. Primary care doctors are becoming scarce, obstestricians even more so. Insurance pays them about 40% of what is billed, and many cannot even pay their overhead. With the average medical student coming out of medical school with six digit debts, why would any one even want to go thru the trouble. Not to mention that they are self employed, have no retirement program nor health insurance benefits.
Yes, I have partially walked in their shoes, as I taught part time at the university. I would do it still today if the option was opened.
I am not bitter about your teaching postiions, but I do get a little miffed when it is projected as such a tough environment to work in, with little or no compensation, and you want to increase our taxes to fund your career choice. That is a luxury most of the people in Alabama do not have.
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Originally posted by only14u:
It really boils down to this - If you haven't walked in their shoes you really don't know what you are talking about.

If you were offended my statement directed at you, please accept my apology. I took it that you most likely were a teacher at some point based upon your comments.
First, the blame for this lies directly on Alabama voters. I would love to blame this on George Bush (because he's a moron), but other than that stupid No Child Left Behind law, this isn't his fault. Nor is it Obama's. This is an issue that is a state matter.

Alabama schools are funded by sales taxes and property taxes. Tax rules are written into the Alabama Constitution, a distinction that only Alabama has. Additionally, the laws are horribly antiquated, and as a result, the schools don't have enough money.

My mother is from Florence, but she married a man from Mountain Brook, thus I was raised there. Do you all know why the Mountain Brook, Vestavia, Homewood, and Hoover schools are well funded? The residents don't mind paying property taxes. And even in Mountain Brook, one can have a 2 million dollar home and still pay around 10K in property taxes, and that's kind of low.

I do agree with a lot of people int hat Paul Hubbard and the AEA are doing more harm to the state than good. That man has way too much control over the governor and legislature. He might as well run for office.

Anyway, lets say you all in Florence wanted to raise the mil tax in order to better fund your schools. It would take maybe 2 years to get it done because you have to go through the legislature in order to do it. And then, it has to make it's way on the ballot and the residents have to vote on it. It'll probably be defeated because Alabamians are so against taxes. It's like it's going to bring about the apocalypse to pay taxes.

And, it's not just about personal property taxes, it's about commercial property taxes. Some major companies are able to get away with paying a few dollars in property taxes. The money they're not required to pay because of Alabama's antiquated laws could be going to fund your childrens education.

Also, we did have a chance to change this with a lottery when Siegelman was in office, and the Bible beaters had to ruin it for everyone. If you see that ugly Alice Martin out and about in Florence, thank her for ruining the career of a great governor. He was really trying to do good things for the state of Alabama.

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