quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
L,

You demonstrate my point perfectly.

Who better than a Christian, steeped in the German idea that the Jews wear the guilt and blood of Jesus to enact The Final Solution?

As for Darwin, he, like so many of us, simply became too cool for the room.

DF


So I'm on the same level as Hitler to you because of my beliefs? Since you generalized Christians in that way, I'm guessing you lumped Joy as well as every single other Christian in that crack.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Hoobs,

This is not a Left-Right issue, it's a rational/irrational issue.

The Atheists are coming. Reason rears its ugly head in Alabama!


DF



Have you, or anyone else viewed this video?

Link


He conveniently forgot to mention that the Civil Rights movement was born in Bible Belt churches, led by reverends and pastors, and succeeded because they stuck to a core Christian principle, "love thy enemy".

He's trying to assign blame for tobacco deaths to Christianity? If atheism prides itself on being more logical and rational than everyone else, this guy isn't your best spokesman.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
L,

You demonstrate my point perfectly.

Who better than a Christian, steeped in the German idea that the Jews wear the guilt and blood of Jesus to enact The Final Solution?

As for Darwin, he, like so many of us, simply became too cool for the room.

DF

You missed it all together, DF, that was NOT the point.

I would say it goes beyond cool, more like 'cold'.
quote:
The only people who pay attention to Megan Fox are boys under the age of 18. If it wasn't for Transformers she still would be a background TV actress that no one would know. She even admits that she isn't that great of an actress. And it's not the first time she's Said something off the wall. All within frequency of the upcoming release of a new film...


Uh, no. I guess I'm a dirty old man.

quote:
now Perez Hilton is taking flack for egging on Will.I.Am's body guard to punch him out by constantly throwing gay slurs at them at a party


How cool! Is there a you-tube video?

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with a billboard on I20, but between Megan Fox and Fred Phelps, this thread rocks.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
If atheism prides itself on being more logical and rational than everyone else, this guy isn't your best spokesman.


In the first minute he says that he is a deist.

The point is that this guy apparently lives in the Shoals.

Regards
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Not true,logical, the Atheists consider them 'hate speech' and contributing to the ignorance of the masses.

Tit for tat.


And your point is?

Y'all remember that stupid sign on the way to the beach that said, "Go to chrch or the devil will GET you!"

'Nuff said.

(edit: embarrasing spelling mistakes)
Last edited by Cookey
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Not true,logical, the Atheists consider them 'hate speech' and contributing to the ignorance of the masses.

Tit for tat.


and yur point is?

Y'all remember that stupid sign on the way to the beach that said, "go to chrch or the devil will GET you!"

'Nuffield said.


I think I remember seeing that sign on I-65, I think it was just south of Montgomery, may be wrong. Wish I had a picture of it.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
"A country isn't great because of it's wealth, knowledge, or even power. It's great because of it's rightousness." Not true if by rrightousness you mean religousness.


According to various surveys between 86 to 95 percent of Americans claim to believe in God, compared to 61 percent of the British; nearly 80 percent of Americans claim to believe in heaven, compared to 50 percent of the British; 84 percent of Americans believe that Jesus is God or the son of God, compared to 46 percent of the British. How have the British fared with less religion? The Bureau of Justice Statistics released a detailed comparison of crime rates in the U.S. and England. The rate of murder, rape and robbery were significantly higher in this country than in the U.K. The U.S. murder rate was six time as high as England's.

The United Nations ranks Norway and Sweden as having the highest standards of living in the world. The percentage of adults surveyed who claim they attend church one or more times per week is United States, 44; Norway, 5; Sweden, 4. The percentage of atheists in Sweden is 46-85; Denmark, 43-80; Norway, 31-72. Yet they are blessed with extremely low crime rates. In 2004, the number of homicides per 100,000 of population was United States, 5.5; Sweden, 2.39; Denmark, 0.78; Norway, 0.78. Norway and Sweden were rated the world's least corrupt nations.

Japan, whose population is about 1 percent Christian, has a homicide rate of 0.5 per 100,000 while the the homicide rate for the overwhelmingly Christian United States is eleven times Japan’s rate. Does Christian dogma deter intolerance, hate and violence or contribute to it?

"How about China?" While "Godless" China is less than perfect; so is the God-fearing, genocidal Balkans. The fact remains that a secular society can be, and often tends to be, less violent and more ethical than a God-fearing society. China has made gigantic leaps forward, both economically and socially, in recent years. As for individuals, there are good and bad believers as there are good and bad non-believers.

With 67 percent of Alabamians labeling themselves "born again" (double the national average), the state ranks well above the national average in crime rate and divorce rate--rivaled only by other Bible belt states.

Where lies the world’s evil? It often lurks in the bastions of religious fervor, including: Islamic terrorists organizations; Northern Ireland where God-fearing Christians kill each other; ecclesiastical dens of pedophilia; the Bible belt where intolerance fosters hatred with vitriolic attacks on various “undesirable” groups.


The Japanese are the most predjudice people in the world. If they were to take over America, they would treat us the same way the Jews were treated in Germany. Talk to some of our GI's who survived being Japanese POW's.

You are now saying America is a Christian Nation? That's a 180 degree turnabout. We were a Christian nation, and the murder rate was a lot lower then. Since that time we have moved away from the one true God and now we are are in this mess.

Just saying "I'm a Christian" doesn't make you a Christian. The vast majority of those who say they are believe so only because they are or were a member of a Christian Church. The word Christian is probably the most misused word in America.

I can't believe you would even try to justify China as a successful Godless nation. I guess N. Korea is also a great place to relocate.

I do agree that most religions are bad. Not going to say evil, because that is the complete absence of good and there are some good people in non-Christian religions.

All of these numbers you keep throwing around are basically worthless. Seems like all of your ideologies come from meaningless polls and statistics. They are one dimensional and don't take into account a multitude of factors that interject major error into the results. For instance, your stat regarding America being a Christian nation and having a high murder rate. Well duh, like I've said before, this nation has denied God and we are in a death spiral of our own making. The actual small percentage of born again Christians in this nation can't carry the whole load themselves. I can just as easily go to Christian web sites and provide my own stats to the contrary of yours, but I believe I'll just use my eyes to observe the obvious.
"All of these numbers you keep throwing around are basically worthless."

Of course they are. Any statistics or polls that cast a poor light on a person's religion are always worthless.

How about some "worthlessness" that shows a negative correlation between Christian religiosity and violent crime?
It does seem, well, tenuous. I can put to you that 90% of violent criminals enjoy sex, and the other 10% lie about enjoying sex. Does that mean that the enjoyment of sex causes violent crime?

A first look at statistics can often reveal things that are not there. Call your local neighborhood statistician for a correlation check. In the meantime, I'd have to agree that the numbers, as your source presents them, are useless.

quote:
Where lies the world’s evil? It often lurks in the bastions of religious fervor, including: Islamic terrorists organizations; Northern Ireland where God-fearing Christians kill each other; ecclesiastical dens of pedophilia; the Bible belt where intolerance fosters hatred with vitriolic attacks on various “undesirable” groups


Rampant emotionalism, and poor statistical presentation. Islamic terrorist organizations do not see themselves as "evil"; we categorize them thus. Similar for Northern Ireland, where some measure of a tenuous peace has broken out.

Ecclesiastical dens of pedophilia? Please. This sounds so terribly prejudicial one would think the writer was the victim of molestation. While you can argue that this exists, it's not an organizational mandate for any group.

And the bible belt where blah blah blah? Sure, again, there are bad things perpetrated. But this paints the entire "bible belt" with an imbecilic, racist, noose-tying, donkey-dragging, and sister-banging brush, as does the previous example. The vast majority of christians are not pedophiles, as your source seems to claim.

As some guy said, there are lies, d'ed lies, and statistics. Your source's statistics are unworthy of intellectual discussion.
Hoobs,

How often can you be wrong?

During the war, lo those 65 years ago, Japan was a highly religious country. The Emperor WAS a god.

Now, Japan is a highly secular country, and its crime rate is low.

America is now more secular than ever, and it enjoys one of the lowest crime rates of its history. Not saying there is a correlation, but them's the facts.

quote:
I do agree that most religions are bad.


I just go one religion farther. Every Iranian agrees with you.

quote:
All of these numbers you keep throwing around are basically worthless.


We can't have little inconveniences like facts to get in the way of a pleasant delusion, can we?


DF
"All of these numbers you keep throwing around are basically worthless."

Then there must be contradictory data or evidence to what I have presented showing that the more Christianity the less violent crime.
I would be interested in seeing such evidence.
David,

What is your theory about christianity/crime rate?

Is it because Christians can ask for, and receive from Jesus, forgiveness for the most heinous crimes upon demand?

Or is it because a sensible model of morality is impossible in the christian milieu?

DF
'Is it because Christians can ask for, and receive from Jesus, forgiveness for the most heinous crimes upon demand?'


If they could, they would not truly regret their actions and therefore forgiveness is not given.
Nice try, but not going to work.
quote:
Or is it because a sensible model of morality is impossible in the christian milieu?


Please elaborate.
L already did, two posts up.

If you're willing to believe in god, you're willing to believe anything, such as preemptive forgiveness.


DF
SYNOPSIS OF RECENT “DISCUSSIONS”

Principle tenet of Christian conservatives: If reason and evidence conflict with religious beliefs, reject reason and evidence.

Attempt to discredit anyone bringing unwanted information by: liberally using the word “hate” and the phrase “out of context;“ quoting the Bible; decreeing that a loving God will condemn them to eternal agony on judgment day, but spinning this to “you will be condemning yourself;“ creating a smokescreen by asking senseless questions and denying the veracity of every statement made.

Various surveys, e.g., Pew, Gallop, ARIS show that the South (Bible belt) is the most religious section of the country and the Northeast is the least religious.

The FBI reports year after year that the violent crime rate in the South is the highest in the country while the violent crime rate in the Northeast is the lowest. Apologist say there are socio-economic factors involved, e.g., education and poverty. True, the better educated are less religious and the poorer are more religious.

Why is there a high correlation between Christian religiosity and unacceptable behavior? Christian dogma teaches that Christ shed his blood for our sins. Thus, thanks to the sacrifice we are either without sin or at the least our sins do not matter. Our personal responsibility for our conduct has been removed by a myth.

Additionally, by accepting Christ as our “Lord and Savior,“ we will spend eternity in paradise regardless of our earthly behavior. “I believe” before we die atones for a plethora of bad behavior. The believer acts to achieve a future reward, the freethinker acts because it is right to abide by rational behavior--the Golden Rule which places the onus for behavioral decision making on the individual.

The believer asks God for behavioral guidance. Invariably, God gives the desired answer.
“Should I blow up an abortion clinic?” Yes. Are homosexuals an abomination? Yes. Are non-Christians worthy of scorn? Yes. Should I invade Iraq? Yes.
I said you would not get preemptive forgiveness, because, that means, you are NOT truly repentant.

That's the 'once saved always saved' idiom, of which I don't partake.
quote:
The believer asks God for behavioral guidance. Invariably, God gives the desired answer.
“Should I blow up an abortion clinic?” Yes. Are homosexuals an abomination? Yes. Are non-Christians worthy of scorn? Yes. Should I invade Iraq? Yes.


Should I blame everything on Christians so I can feel good about my own path? Yes! Wink
Going back to your BDS problem David, did FDR ask God before he bombed Japan into oblivion?

How about good ole Armanidinnerjacket?

Ahmadinejad, the current and most discomforting president of Iran, centers his Islamic faith on a Shiite conviction of the imminent return of Imam Mahdi who has been dead for over 1000 years now but is currently in constant contact with Mr. Ahmadinejad. Indeed, Iran’s president declared this past month that the long dead imam is directly involved in the day to day workings of the current Iranian administration.
quote:
The believer asks God for behavioral guidance. Invariably, God gives the desired answer.
“Should I blow up an abortion clinic?” Yes. Are homosexuals an abomination? Yes. Are non-Christians worthy of scorn? Yes. Should I invade Iraq? Yes.


You have so much contempt for Christianity, but you don't know much about it.

Christianity teaches not to kill, that people are not an abomination, that we are not to scorn or judge others, and says nothing about invading Iraq.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMM:
[QUOTE]Should I blame everything on Christians so I can feel good about my own path?/QUOTE]

Sure. Why not. The beauty of religion, including Christianity, is that you can do away with personal responsibility. That is probably a reason why atheism is so unatractive to believers. We have to answer to the most demanding of taskmastes--our own conscience.
We cannot just ask God for forgivewness when we act badly. Blaming others is the same idea--no personal responsibility for our own actions.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMM:
[QUOTE]Should I blame everything on Christians so I can feel good about my own path?/QUOTE]

Sure. Why not. The beauty of religion, including Christianity, is that you can do away with personal responsibility. That is probably a reason why atheism is so unatractive to believers. We have to answer to the most demanding of taskmastes--our own conscience.
We cannot just ask God for forgivewness when we act badly. Blaming others is the same idea--no personal responsibility for our own actions.


Again, that's not what Christianity teaches at all. It teaches that there are consequences for our actions, not just in the next life but in this one. We've been given an example and a guide on how best to live our lives that not just benefits ourselves, but benefits others as well.
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Christianity teaches not to kill, that people are not an abomination, that we are not to scorn or judge others, and says nothing about invading Iraq.


Murder: The Bible irrationally and cruelly demands the following shall be put to death, usually by stoning: Homosexuals, Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:27-32; He that curseth his father and mother, Exodus 21:17 and Matthew 15:4; Witches, Exodus 22:18; Those who lie with beasts, Exodus 22:19; Worshipers of other gods, Exodus 22:20; People who work on the Sabbath, Exodus 31:15; Adulterers, Leviticus 20:10; Wizards, Leviticus 20:27; *****s, Leviticus 21:9; Blasphemers, Leviticus 24:16; Stubborn and rebellious sons, Deuteronomy 21:18-21; Thieves, Deuteronomy 24:7.

Those abominable homosexuals. Isn't biblical tolerance wonderful:"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20: 13. And in the NT, Romans 1:27-32.

"He that believeth not shall be****ed." Sounds like scorning to me.
Perhaps it was because lying with another man does not populate the species.

As for bestiality, that's sick whether you are religious or not.

But hey, its your life! Wink
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Perhaps it was because lying with another man does not populate the species.

As for bestiality, that's sick whether you are religious or not.

But hey, its your life! Wink


KILL 'EM! ! !
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Christianity teaches not to kill, that people are not an abomination, that we are not to scorn or judge others, and says nothing about invading Iraq.


Murder: The Bible irrationally and cruelly demands the following shall be put to death, usually by stoning: Homosexuals, Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:27-32; He that curseth his father and mother, Exodus 21:17 and Matthew 15:4; Witches, Exodus 22:18; Those who lie with beasts, Exodus 22:19; Worshipers of other gods, Exodus 22:20; People who work on the Sabbath, Exodus 31:15; Adulterers, Leviticus 20:10; Wizards, Leviticus 20:27; *****s, Leviticus 21:9; Blasphemers, Leviticus 24:16; Stubborn and rebellious sons, Deuteronomy 21:18-21; Thieves, Deuteronomy 24:7.

Those abominable homosexuals. Isn't biblical tolerance wonderful:"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20: 13. And in the NT, Romans 1:27-32.

"He that believeth not shall be****ed." Sounds like scorning to me.


For the Old Testiment verses you posted, you'll have to take that up with folks of the Jewish faith.

If you had read Romans 1:27-32, you would have seen "They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless."

In other words, we're all guilty of sin so we're all in the same boat. It doesn't say the individuals are abominations as you claimed, it's addressing the deed itself.

The last verse you posted is Mark 16:16. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Jesus said that, not other Christians. Christians were told not to judge others because as you've seen in the verse from Romans, we're all in the same boat.

I think you're not really getting this from the Bible, but pulling it from some website. Can you link it please?
quote:
Why is there a high correlation between Christian religiosity and unacceptable behavior?


Fine. Provide a statistical correlation. Failing that, provide a link to a site that claims statistical correlation. The degree of correlation can be measured. Without it, you're slinging numbers against the wall and seeing it they'll stick.

quote:
Christian dogma teaches that Christ shed his blood for our sins. Thus, thanks to the sacrifice we are either without sin or at the least our sins do not matter. Our personal responsibility for our conduct has been removed by a myth.


You clearly have no concept whatsoever about even what christianity claims. Your statements do not compute; at least, they have zero meaning to any rational person. It's a wholly unrealistic stretch of logic.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:


I think you're not really getting this from the Bible, but pulling it from some website. Can you link it please?


I would guess from here: Link
Christian dogma teaches that Christ shed his blood for our sins. Thus, thanks to the sacrifice we are either without sin or at the least our sins do not matter. Our personal responsibility for our conduct has been removed by a myth.


You clearly have no concept whatsoever about even what christianity claims. Your statements do not compute; at least, they have zero meaning to any rational person. It's a wholly unrealistic stretch of logic.

Sorry Zip, I have probably been reading to many of Bill's "teachings."
What is the meaning of Christ's crucifixion?
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
Christian dogma teaches that Christ shed his blood for our sins. Thus, thanks to the sacrifice we are either without sin or at the least our sins do not matter. Our personal responsibility for our conduct has been removed by a myth.


You clearly have no concept whatsoever about even what christianity claims. Your statements do not compute; at least, they have zero meaning to any rational person. It's a wholly unrealistic stretch of logic.

Sorry Zip, I have probably been reading to many of Bill's "teachings."
What is the meaning of Christ's crucifixion?


No, that's not what Christian dogma teaches.

Christianity is simple. The penalty for sin is death, you've posted the verses that say this. That penalty has been paid for us by someone who was innocent of sin. By accepting that sacrifice, God sees Christ's innocence instead of our sin. This involves taking responsibility for what we've done, and we're all guilty of something, and asking forgiveness.

No matter what denomination, tradition, or label a church may apply to themselves, all Christianity believes that core value. We're saved through Christ.

I know not everyone believes this, many here consider it irrational and practicely insane. I did too at one time. However, my life since following Christ has been much more fulfilling than it was before. Take that for what it's worth, but that's just my story.
"Christianity is simple. The penalty for sin is death, you've posted the verses that say this. That penalty has been paid for us by someone who was innocent of sin. By accepting that sacrifice, God sees Christ's innocence instead of our sin. This involves taking responsibility for what we've done, and we're all guilty of something, and asking forgiveness.

No matter what denomination, tradition, or label a church may apply to themselves, all Christianity believes that core value. We're saved through Christ."

Does this mean that my "sins" do not exist or that they do not matter? Since they have been paid for by Christ and I am forgiven, can I just fortget about them?
quote:
Does this mean that my "sins" do not exist or that they do not matter? Since they have been paid for by Christ and I am forgiven, can I just fortget about them?


How can be forgiven if you reject forgiveness?

Let's say you're in traffic court, you're there to pay a speeding ticket, but you can't afford it. The clerk hates to see you in this situation and offers to pay it for you and your charges will be dropped. If you don't pay, you go to jail. If you accept the offer, you walk away free. Do you accept it or reject it?
quote:
Christian dogma teaches that Christ shed his blood for our sins. Thus, thanks to the sacrifice we are either without sin or at the least our sins do not matter. Our personal responsibility for our conduct has been removed by a myth.


Christianity is not a "get out of hell free" card. Being a christian does not give you a free pass, regardless of what some may teach. There must be a genuine turing from the desire to commit sin as evidenced from what is in the deepest recesses of your heart. This part is not well understood, even among christians. Your personal responsibility for your conduct remains.

The crucifixion? Arguably, the most horrible death imaginable; reserved by Romans for the worst offenders. Mechanism of death is slow suffocation, as your diaphragm is extended and you have to fight for breath. Christians teach that Jesus willingly went to his death; similar to the Passover lamb, which was sacrificed. This action was in response to God's demand for justice which, admittedly, seems a bit severe.

As the blood-debt for sin was paid, mercy could be extended to those who would accept it. This was also similar to the Jewish practice of "the judas goat" who carried all transgressions into the wilderness. Jesus was crucified the day before Passover and removed from the cross before sunset, as custom dictated. His resurrection occurred on the Jewish holiday of the Feast of First Fruits; ostensibly the first fruits of the resurrection.
David,

Your crimes and trespasses are yours to deal with as you must and will, but your sins may be dismissed in the same spirit, and with the same importance, in which they were thrust upon you.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Does this mean that my "sins" do not exist or that they do not matter? Since they have been paid for by Christ and I am forgiven, can I just fortget about them?


How can be forgiven if you reject forgiveness?

Let's say you're in traffic court, you're there to pay a speeding ticket, but you can't afford it. The clerk hates to see you in this situation and offers to pay it for you and your charges will be dropped. If you don't pay, you go to jail. If you accept the offer, you walk away free. Do you accept it or reject it?


And if I have been convicted of murder, can someone assume the sentence for me, and I can go free?
Last edited by davidnmiles
"As the blood-debt for sin was paid, mercy could be extended to those who would accept it."

Is the world a better place because of this crucifixion? Did it imporve the human condition? If so, when did this improvement begin--the day of the event, a year later, a century later, a millennium later, today?
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Does this mean that my "sins" do not exist or that they do not matter? Since they have been paid for by Christ and I am forgiven, can I just fortget about them?


How can be forgiven if you reject forgiveness?

Let's say you're in traffic court, you're there to pay a speeding ticket, but you can't afford it. The clerk hates to see you in this situation and offers to pay it for you and your charges will be dropped. If you don't pay, you go to jail. If you accept the offer, you walk away free. Do you accept it or reject it?


And if I am there for murder. Can someone assume the sentence for me, and I can go free?


You're changing the illustration, I will address that afterwards, I promise. Right now, let's stick to the given example. Would you accept or reject the clerk's offer?

Add Reply

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×