quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
"As the blood-debt for sin was paid, mercy could be extended to those who would accept it."

Is the world a better place because of this crucifixion? Did it imporve the human condition? If so, when did this improvement begin--the day of the event, a year later, a century later, a millennium later, today?


It changed my life for the better. I've seen the effects of accepting Christ with other people I've know for a long time. I've also seen the vast number of Christian charitable orgianzations reaching out to others to serve them just as Christ taught. So did Christ sacrifice change the human condition? Most certainly.
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:


I think you're not really getting this from the Bible, but pulling it from some website. Can you link it please?


I would guess from here: Link


Skeptics Annotated Bible is a pretty handy site.
"I've also seen the vast number of Christian charitable orgianzations reaching out to others to serve them just as Christ taught. So did Christ sacrifice change the human condition? Most certainly."

In other words without Christ's crucifixion, charitable organizations and charitable individuals would not exist. I guess if that is true, then it was a benefit to humankind.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
Is the world a better place because of this crucifixion? Did it imporve the human condition? If so, when did this improvement begin--the day of the event, a year later, a century later, a millennium later, today?


Who can really say? A better world than what? How would it be if people had not embraced christianity? We can come up with an entire spectrum of scenarios, from idyllic to hellish.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
It changed my life for the better. I've seen the effects of accepting Christ with other people I've know for a long time. I've also seen the vast number of Christian charitable orgianzations reaching out to others to serve them just as Christ taught. So did Christ sacrifice change the human condition? Most certainly.


Nash, what if we found out that the Biblical tales aren't true.

Would that undo all of the good work done in the name of a non-existent god?

How would believers recant all of these miracles and faux feelings?

Based on population, it is very likely that most of the people on earth doing good deeds are not Christian.

I think religion or belief in Holy Ghosts isn't a requirement for being moral or doing the right thing.

Regards
If all the biblical tales weren't true, many people would lose their focus. Many would not.

Perhaps some who had done good in the name of God would not do any since it wouldn't help them. Others would because they are good at heart.

You are likely correct. Most people on earth who do good works are not christian. I think being a good and moral person will cause you to do good things and be moral. Simply being religious doesn't confer an quality of goodness and morality to you.
Zip, I just wish that folks could look at all these ancient religions/religious texts and glean the good life lessons and apply them in their lives today.(You seem to be a good example of this)

It is troubling to see otherwise intelligent people take these philosophies literally.

Regards
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
It changed my life for the better. I've seen the effects of accepting Christ with other people I've know for a long time. I've also seen the vast number of Christian charitable orgianzations reaching out to others to serve them just as Christ taught. So did Christ sacrifice change the human condition? Most certainly.


Nash, what if we found out that the Biblical tales aren't true.

Would that undo all of the good work done in the name of a non-existent god?

How would believers recant all of these miracles and faux feelings?

Based on population, it is very likely that most of the people on earth doing good deeds are not Christian.

I think religion or belief in Holy Ghosts isn't a requirement for being moral or doing the right thing.

Regards


What if we found out they are?

There are plenty of great people out there who aren't religious, you're a good example. However, as for the question of what good has come from Christianity, it would be short sighted to answer "none".

How do you know those feelings are faux? How do that someone's changed life is strictly credited to themselves? With folks like Bill and a lot of churches in the Shoals, it's easy to dismiss the claims of Christianity. However, what if Christianity was really something different than the judgmental nonsense they proclaim?
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:


I think you're not really getting this from the Bible, but pulling it from some website. Can you link it please?


I would guess from here: Link


Skeptics Annotated Bible is a pretty handy site.


I'll give them credit, they did post Christian responses to their critiques.

They aren't looking at the messages or historical context of the stories. This causes them to jump to conclusions in many cases that I've seen.

The Bible isn't easy to grasp at first glance. Biblical scholar Howard Hendricks summed it up pretty well. "Scripture does not yield it's fruit to the lazy. Like any other discipline of life, Bible study pays in proportion to how much of an investment you make. The greater the investment, the greater the reward".

So dissecting the Bible to try and pull out every bad thing there is, whether it's historically or theologically accurate or not, doesn't mean they understood the true message of the text.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
The Bible isn't easy to grasp at first glance.


Why do you think the Creator of the Universe would write a book that can so easily be mistranslated?
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Again, that's not what Christianity teaches at all. It teaches that there are consequences for our actions, not just in the next life but in this one.


What are those consequences, Nash?
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
I think you're not really getting this from the Bible, but pulling it from some website. Can you link it please?


Why the heck would it matter from where he pulled the evil verses? I tell ya what, why don't you give me the name of a website that you would prefer and invite David (or me) to pull those verses from there instead.

I bet you a whole dollar they would be perfectly identical.

Yes, all translations clearly state that people like me shall be stoned to death for denying the existence of a god.
This is the site I use.

Link

Jesus did not teach that non believers would be stoned to death. Like I told David, if you have issue with the Old Testament laws, take that up with the Jews.

For your question about why the Bible is mistranslated, please go back and see my quote from Howard Hendricks.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
This is the site I use.

Link

Jesus did not teach that non believers would be stoned to death.


From your preferred source, BibleGateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2019:11-27&version=31; ) "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me."

quote:
For your question about why the Bible is mistranslated, please go back and see my quote from Howard Hendricks.


Nash, I don't care what others think. If I want to know what Howard Hendricks thinks, I'll ask him. We want to know what you think. So are you saying that you think whatever Howard thinks?

I just looked at your preferred site for bible quotes and, sure 'nuff, it says the following are punishable by death, usually by stoning:

Homosexuals, Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:27-32; He that curseth his father and mother, Exodus 21:17 and Matthew 15:4; Witches, Exodus 22:18; Those who lie with beasts, Exodus 22:19; Worshipers of other gods, Exodus 22:20; People who work on the Sabbath, Exodus 31:15; Adulterers, Leviticus 20:10; Wizards, Leviticus 20:27; *****s, Leviticus 21:9; Blasphemers, Leviticus 24:16; Stubborn and rebellious sons, Deuteronomy 21:18-21; Thieves, Deuteronomy 24:7.

If you wanna be consistent, Nash, I'll give you a suggestion: Call the OT what it is: An evil abomination to god's word. Your kinder, gentler version of Christianity is sharply contrasted with the wickedness of Deuteronomy and Leviticus and the mythology of Genesis and the downright fire and brimstone of the entire OT itself. Why, its enough to cause one to erect a billboard in protest against the evil book.

But if you discount the OT, you're also going to have to dismiss Jesus' own proclamation that he was not there to do away with the old law, but to uphold the old law.

It's a never ending conundrum, isn't it? I find it easier to cal BS on the whole thing and look at the bible for what it is: The sometimes intelligent, sometimes insightful, sometimes evil, sometimes inconsistent, sometimes historical/allegorical/metaphorical book written by flawed men trying their best to understand their world prior to the invention of science.
Last edited by Cookey
quote:
Nash, I don't care what others think. If I want to know what Howard Hendricks thinks, I'll ask him. We want to know what you think. So are you saying that you think whatever Howard thinks?


I posted Hendricks' quote because I agree with it and it best addresses the issue at hand. You're free to disagree with it.

As for the rest of your post, would you also say the Torah is an abomination of God's word or does that only apply when it's combined with the New Testament?

You also answered your own question in the same post. Yes, Jesus said he came to uphold the law. The law says that sin is punishable by death. He did not do away with that law, he upheld it with His own death. Like I said, you're free to disagree.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
As for the rest of your post, would you also say the Torah is an abomination of God's word or does that only apply when it's combined with the New Testament?


Huh? Nash, I call BS on all of it. The Torah, the Koran, the Bible - old and new testaments, Uranthra and a thousand other written revelations from thousands of other gods.

quote:
You also answered your own question in the same post. Yes, Jesus said he came to uphold the law. The law says that sin is punishable by death. He did not do away with that law, he upheld it with His own death. Like I said, you're free to disagree.


Of course I am free to disagree but that s only because our country was founded on secular principals that grant me that right.

The point, Nash, is that as much as your wriggle, wrangle, twist, turn and apologize, your bible is a flawed tool for your kinder, gentler religion that you claim. It is clearly wrought with pride, envy, lust, murder, rape and pillage committed by or approved of by God himself.

It's right there in black and white and red but your early-childhood brainwashing won't let you see it.

You have good people on this forum who can help you rationalize the inconsistencies. All you have to do is ask. But to pretend they don't exist is just moronic.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
what would she (Megan's character in the movie) say to keep Megatron from destroying the world? "I'd barter with him and say instead of destroying the entire planet, can you just take out all the white trash, hillbilly, anti-gay, super bible beating people in middle America?"


Umm, you do know this is brilliantly reminiscent of the story of Lot bartering with God to not kill all the inhabitants of his city?

And, of course, this story is held out to be a literal example of God's penchant to kill anyone who disagrees with him.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Deep,

God is still in control....

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


If "God is in Control" why is the world such a mess? God likes it this way?
quote:
Of course I am free to disagree but that s only because our country was founded on secular principals that grant me that right.

The point, Nash, is that as much as your wriggle, wrangle, twist, turn and apologize, your bible is a flawed tool for your kinder, gentler religion that you claim. It is clearly wrought with pride, envy, lust, murder, rape and pillage committed by or approved of by God himself.

It's right there in black and white and red but your early-childhood brainwashing won't let you see it.

You have good people on this forum who can help you rationalize the inconsistencies. All you have to do is ask. But to pretend they don't exist is just moronic.


If you don't believe in theology, then why debate it? My personal theoligical views are of no consequence to you since you throw it all out the window. So why debate the details of my beliefs if you disagree with any possibility?

You also forget that I've gotten rid of my childhood religion. It was my childhood church that led me towards non-belief. So how can I be brainwashed from childhood if I've abandoned that church long ago?
Not going to address my points again? I expected no less. Oh well. I won't press you this time. I know where it will take us and I'm not in the mood.

quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
If you don't believe in theology, then why debate it? My personal theoligical views are of no consequence to you since you throw it all out the window. So why debate the details of my beliefs if you disagree with any possibility?


For some of the same reasons I enjoy visiting "Ripley's Beleive it or Not."

You and the Bloviator, Hooperstank, Rram and the other fundies are a museum of the mind - a living bone yard of intellectual curiosities, failed philosophies and logical fallacies.

I learn much from you, Nash, despite my name-callings to the contrary. Just as I learn something from visiting Ripley's.

quote:
You also forget that I've gotten rid of my childhood religion. It was my childhood church that led me towards non-belief. So how can I be brainwashed from childhood if I've abandoned that church long ago?


You may have walked out the door but you left your childhood there, buddy. Hell, eternal dangnation, penance for past sins and "saving grace" from future ones, denial of the facts, it's all there man. Sad (really!) but true.
IMAGINE THERE’S NO HEAVEN

Imagine there’s no Heaven. Imagine there’s no Hell. Imagine there’s no divine revelation or holy commandments. Imagine there’s no God, and no religion too. What would this mean? What are the implications of living in a world without supernatural purpose?

It would mean that this life is the only life we have, and that we must make the most of it. It would mean that our understanding and morality are purely human and natural. It would mean that we are responsible for creating our own meaning and value in life. It would therefore mean that we must use human understanding and compassion to make the best of life, for ourselves and for each other.. Imagine such a world . . .

From the book, “Imagine there’s no Heaven” compiled by the Council of Secular Humanism
quote:
For some of the same reasons I enjoy visiting "Ripley's Beleive it or Not."

You and the Bloviator, Hooperstank, Rram and the other fundies are a museum of the mind - a living bone yard of intellectual curiosities, failed philosophies and logical fallacies.

I learn much from you, Nash, despite my name-callings to the contrary. Just as I learn something from visiting Ripley's.


I don't really see how insulting people contributes to the discussion. That usually turns it more into an argument and void of any intellectual value. So I'll leave the thread here.

I noticed in the Global Warming myth discussion that you aren't really looking for facts or evidence. You're mind is made up regardless of what information others may present. From what I've seen, you simply like to argue. I prefer a more respectful discussion.

Nothing personal and I mean no insult. I read that you were involved with the "Free the Hops" group and as a craft beer lover I applaud you for your work with that. I'm just disappointed that you would rather insult rather than discuss issues, the exchanges would be much more enjoyable.
Nash,

You say I am insulting. Perhaps that is true. I think not.

But you must understand how insulting you are when I ask simple questions and you either pretend not to see them, such as this one:

quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Again, that's not what Christianity teaches at all. It teaches that there are consequences for our actions, not just in the next life but in this one.

[quote] What are those consequences, Nash?


or you simply change the subject when I state an obvious discrepancy sich as just a couple of posts up where I clearly listed a bible quote where Jesus told his people to bring disbelievers to him to be killed. You didn't even take an apologists stance (there are plenty of refutations to this - some worthy and some not). No, you take the easy way out, refuse to advance the debate and instead cry "Insult! Insult!" when I called you on it.

Yes, I put a label on you that everyone else can see but that you refuse to acknowledge; fundamentalist. Recovering fundamentalist, yes, but still a fundamentalist.

I'm glad you acknowledge that as a negative trait. Most fundies embrace it.

I am after an honest exchange of ideas. You are anything but honest. You give Hillary-ish answers to tough questions. You hide behind the robes of Jesus and hurl thinly veiled threats about my eternal soul then deny that ever did so.

Its damm frustrating.

In an gentlemanly, intellectual debate, ideas are exchanged, Points are conceded. You, sir, have demonstrated an unwillingness to concede points. You leave me with only ridicule.

If you can't stand the fire, stay out of the heat.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
I'm curious...has the song, "Imagine", been placed in the satanic bin, along with Harry Potter and "The Golden Compass"?


Of course. Lennon was an EVIL BASTARD, and a commie to boot. You can tell just by his last name. Don't even get me started on Teletubbies, Barney, and Disney. EVIL INCARNATE, all!!!!!!
quote:
a museum of the mind - a living bone yard of intellectual curiosities, failed philosophies and logical fallacies.


May I use that? It's good.


DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
quote:
a museum of the mind - a living bone yard of intellectual curiosities, failed philosophies and logical fallacies.


May I use that? It's good.


DF


Sure! But you gotta hold out your fingers in quotes when doing so. That's the rules, man.

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