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Sometimes a Christian will ask me, “how can you be a moral person without God? What’s the motivation to live a moral life if you’re not accountable for it anyway? Where do your morals come from?”

Rather than go through an exhaustive analysis of why these questions are flawed, I’m going to make a list. See, God may tell Christians not to murder or steal and all that good stuff, but really, not murdering and stealing is really basic human common sense. If we’re going to praise God for all those great rules he supposedly came up with, what about all those nasty morals he came up with? I would argue that my lack of a belief in God makes me a more moral person than someone who is religious. My moral choices aren’t made out of fear of eternal punishment. Just as I don’t have a reason to have “good” morals, I don’t have an excuse for bad ones, either.

1. I don’t have a religious justification to hate gay people, so I don’t hate gay people.
2. I don’t have a religious justification to believe that women are inherently inferior to men, so I don’t believe women are inferior to men.
3. I don’t have a religious justification to not see a doctor when I’m sick, so I see a doctor when I’m sick.
4. I don’t have a religious justification to hate someone for having the “wrong” religion, so I don’t hate people because they follow a certain religion.
5. I don’t have a religious justification to deprive my children of truthful, frank sex education and the knowledge of safe and effective birth control use; so when I have a teenage daughter, she will be less likely to have sex too young, get pregnant, or get an STD.
6. I don’t have a religious justification to hate someone for being a member of the “wrong” race, so I am not a racist.
7. I don’t have a religious justification to support certain wars due to a belief that it will fulfill some sort of ancient prophecy, so I oppose needless death and destruction.
8. I don’t have a religious justification to strap a bomb to my chest and blow myself up in a crowded market, so I don’t strap a bomb to my chest and blow myself up in a crowded market.
9. I don’t have a religious justification to not care about climate change because “God would never let it get that bad before the end comes.”
10. I don’t believe that I have an eternal, joy-filled life waiting for me after I die, so I appreciate the value and sanctity of this one.
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That's a pretty sad view of Christianity and religion as a whole. Looking at a few extremist odd balls to represent the whole faith isn't a good way to have an accurate perception of what Christianity teaches. Proof of that is 5 of the 10 involve hatered of other people which as I mentioned in a previous thread, goes directly against what Christ taught. The list itself suggests a belittling of people of faith.
Hi Skeptik,

First of all, we conservative Christian believers do not say that atheists cannot be moral folks. There are many atheist who are the nicest, most generous, really good folks you could ever find. Yet, they have chosen the wrong eternal home. Everything is just fine; except they are buying a ticket on the wrong train. I prefer the Glory Train -- not the Gory Train!

You see, being Christian does not make us more moral than anyone else. We are all sinners. It is just that we Christian believers are saved sinners. Why? Because, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- we have invited Jesus Christ to come into our lives, into our hearts, and live within us. We, by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), have the Holy Spirit residing within us -- giving us spiritual discernment, spiritual guidance, spiritual teaching, and spiritual conviction when we do something that is against the will of God. That is the only difference between a believer and a non-believer.

Being a good, moral person is works. Christians are not saved by works; only by grace through faith. The Christian works come as a result of our being saved.

So, yes, I believe you are a moral person. It is just that, so far, you are not a saved person. And, that is our prayer -- that you will turn from following your worldly gods -- whether they be money, or worldly wisdom, or worldly science, or any other worldly endeavor -- and turn to following Jesus Christ.

Is this some form of "dumbing down" needed to be a Christian? Absolutely not. No one is asking you to lay aside your intelligence, your science, your education -- only that you put them in the proper perspective. We are asking you to accept spiritual discernment on top of your worldly education and intelligence. Many very renown scientists have done so -- to their eternal betterment. I pray you will also.

I have taken the liberty of just taking the propositions from your post and adding my comments in red:

1. I don’t have a religious justification to hate gay people, so I don’t hate gay people. Nor do Christians!

2. I don’t have a religious justification to believe that women are inherently inferior to men, so I don’t believe women are inferior to men. Nor do Christians!

3. I don’t have a religious justification to not see a doctor when I’m sick, so I see a doctor when I’m sick. As do Christians!

4. I don’t have a religious justification to hate someone for having the “wrong” religion, so I don’t hate people because they follow a certain religion. Nor do Christians! We pray for them!

5. I don’t have a religious justification to deprive my children of truthful, frank sex education and the knowledge of safe and effective birth control use; so when I have a teenage daughter, she will be less likely to have sex too young, get pregnant, or get an STD. Christians agree; as long as they will leave the "gay sex" techniques out of their teaching! If you doubt this happens, I can refer you to a video made by a reporter who went under cover into just such a public school teaching.

6. I don’t have a religious justification to hate someone for being a member of the “wrong” race, so I am not a racist. Nor are Christians!

7. I don’t have a religious justification to support certain wars due to a belief that it will fulfill some sort of ancient prophecy, so I oppose needless death and destruction. As do Christians!

8. I don’t have a religious justification to strap a bomb to my chest and blow myself up in a crowded market, so I don’t strap a bomb to my chest and blow myself up in a crowded market. Nor do Christians!

9. I don’t have a religious justification to not care about climate change because “God would never let it get that bad before the end comes.” Christians agree; we just do not pretend to see the "sky falling" or other Chicken Little fantasies!

10. I don’t believe that I have an eternal, joy-filled life waiting for me after I die, so I appreciate the value and sanctity of this one. You were doing so well; I thought I had a new Christian brother -- then, you had to go and blow it!

There is still time, my Friend, for you to gain eternal security, eternal life, in Jesus Christ. Why not try it; you WILL like it!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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[quote]1. I don’t have a religious justification to hate gay people, so I don’t hate gay people. Nor do Christians!

Link

2. I don’t have a religious justification to believe that women are inherently inferior to men, so I don’t believe women are inferior to men. Nor do Christians!

Women cannot attain the highest spiritual level in Baptist churches.

3. I don’t have a religious justification to not see a doctor when I’m sick, so I see a doctor when I’m sick. As do Christians!

Tell that to a Jehovah's Witness.

4. I don’t have a religious justification to hate someone for having the “wrong” religion, so I don’t hate people because they follow a certain religion. Nor do Christians! We pray for them!

Tell that to a Muslim or Eric Rudolph

5. I don’t have a religious justification to deprive my children of truthful, frank sex education and the knowledge of safe and effective birth control use; so when I have a teenage daughter, she will be less likely to have sex too young, get pregnant, or get an STD. Christians agree; as long as they will leave the "gay sex" techniques out of their teaching! If you deny this happens, I can refer you to a video made by a reporter who went under cover into just such a school teaching.

No, "Christians" do not agree, Brother Bill. In fact, the majority of them believe that birth control is a sin.

6. I don’t have a religious justification to hate someone for being a member of the “wrong” race, so I am not a racist. Nor are Christians!

Tell that to the KKK.

7. I don’t have a religious justification to support certain wars due to a belief that it will fulfill some sort of ancient prophecy, so I oppose needless death and destruction. As do Christians!

Excuse me? Don't Christians look forward to the apocalypse? Yes, you would actually rejoice if you saw nuclear bombs obliterating our earth, Bill. Your religion requires it.

8. I don’t have a religious justification to strap a bomb to my chest and blow myself up in a crowded market, so I don’t strap a bomb to my chest and blow myself up in a crowded market. Nor do Christians!

No, I don't recall a Christian making headlines recently but that does not erase 1500 years of horrors caused by Christians in the name of God. You miss the point, Bill. People who do this have RELIGIOUS justifications for doing so.

9. I don’t have a religious justification to not care about climate change because “God would never let it get that bad before the end comes.” Christians agree; we just to not pretend to see the "sky falling" or other Chicken Little fantasies!

From: Link "WASHINGTON – Evangelical, mainline and the Catholic traditions were all citing scriptures from the same Bible as support for their stance on global warming, yet they still remained intensely divided over the issue as they shared their views before a U.S. senate committee on Thursday."



No atheist has ever been accused of being "too rational," Brother Bill.
quote:
My moral choices aren’t made out of fear of eternal punishment.


Unfortunately, many Christians come off this way. It's almost as if they begrudge others for not believing like them as if it somehow undermines their faith because another person chooses to interpret spirituality differently. Jesus did not condemn anyone. Ever. Not once. Rather, He accepted others for what and who they were.
If everyone were as confident as you and I, Skeptic, in our beliefs, then I suppose we wouldn't be having a religion forum.
quote:
Originally posted by Eye-gor:
quote:
My moral choices aren’t made out of fear of eternal punishment.


Unfortunately, many Christians come off this way. It's almost as if they begrudge others for not believing like them as if it somehow undermines their faith because another person chooses to interpret spirituality differently. Jesus did not condemn anyone. Ever. Not once. Rather, He accepted others for what and who they were.

If everyone were as confident as you and I, Skeptic, in our beliefs, then I suppose we wouldn't be having a religion forum.

Hi Eye,

Since you know and believe so strongly in what Jesus teaches -- why are you still an atheist?

Jesus loves men and women -- so, your being a women should not stop you from being a Christian. You believe in what Jesus says and does -- but, you do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, that is strange.

Why do you suppose this is? Is it because you are afraid of being accountable to God; so, you deny that He exists? That is somewhat like the child who pulls the cover over his head -- so that the bogey man can't see him -- or her.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Eye-gor:
Bill I'm not an atheist and since you don't me, you don't know whether I'm male or female.

You cannot quote me where I've claimed to be either an atheist or a female.

Okay, Eye,

So, you are, or want to be, a medium -- and you have a nice web page. No big deal. Anyone who is, or wants to be a medium, certainly is not paying much attention to the Bible. Is that being an atheist? You tell me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
? Bill, you're frothing at the mouth again. I have no idea where you're getting this information or what it means but you're wrong. The only other person on this forum besides you who accuses me of being someone else is a person who lied about being an English instructor in Memphis to laud her own story. Are you taking the word of a liar over someone who has never misrepresented themself?
Last edited by Eye-gor
quote:
You believe in what Jesus says and does -- but, you do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, that is strange


Not if you are Jewish. Or Muslim or a thousand other Jesus-less religions. Belief in God does not require a belief in Jesus contrary to what the pitchfork-and-torch-bearers say.

The idea of a "trinity" didn't even come about until the third century.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
You believe in what Jesus says and does -- but, you do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, that is strange


Not if you are Jewish. Or Muslim or a thousand other Jesus-less religions. Belief in God does not require a belief in Jesus contrary to what the pitchfork-and-torch-bearers say.

The idea of a "trinity" didn't even come about until the third century.


yea the whole trinity thing is another box of worms!!
Skeptic,

The only thing about relying on your own morality rather than Jesus (who when we accept him as our Savior becomes our attorney, pleading our case before God) is that one day when you stand before God (and you will someday) you will be judged by your own works to save you rather than Jesus' blood. No matter how 'good' you are in this life, you have sinned.
Everyone, at one time or other, has lied, lusted, stolen, etc. You will be judged by the ten commandments; and if you have broken even one...you are condemned. That is why Jesus came...because NONE of us are able to keep from sinning. That is why he gave the commandments, to show us we cannot keep them, we cannot be perfect like God, and to show us our NEED for Him. But, people have strived to keep commandments that are impossible to keep rather than rely on Jesus to cover our sins with His blood.
When we depend on Jesus, it frees us to no longer be under the law. It doesn't give us a right to break the commandments, but to not be under the stress of being "perfect".
Accepting Jesus and his forgiveness and saving grace is very simple; just accept Him. Don't fight, give in... and don't let your life end with this 'earthly' life when it can be eternal. I'll be praying for you.
Hi GoAhead,

I wrote to Eye-gor, "You believe in what Jesus says and does -- but, you do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, that is strange."

And, you respond, "What's really strange to me is that you believe that Jesus and God are the same? How can God be his only begotten son Jesus? God is a title like Lord Saviour..."

It is funny that you should say this, since I believe you are a member of the Worldwide Church of God. I just received three booklets in the mail from the United Church of God -- one of the many spin-offs of the Worldwide Church of God which was formed by Herbert W. Armstrong. These churches all spun off about fifteen years ago when Dr. Joseph Tkach, president, changed that church's doctrines to bring it in line with what mainstream Christian churches teach. This angered many of the Worldwide Church of God pastors and lay people -- who then went off to start other churches which still followed the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong instead of the teachings of the Bible.

One of the booklets I received this week is Fundamental Beliefs of the United Church of God, a spin-off of the Worldwide Church of God. The very first article in the booklet is "God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit." In the second paragraph, I read, "The Bible reveals God as the 'Father' and Jesus Christ as His 'Son.'" The article goes on to say that the Holy Spirit is not a third person of the Godhead; but, only the power of God. This teaching is consistent with the old teaching of the Worldwide Church of God -- and will all the off-shoot churches.

So, to have you question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God doesn't seem to put you into the teaching of the Worldwide Church of God or any of the off-shoots. Therefore, I must ask, "Where do you get your teaching?"

But, let's go back to your question, "What's really strange to me is that you believe that Jesus and God are the same? How can God be his only begotten son Jesus? God is a title like Lord Saviour..."

Yes, in a sense, God is a title -- the title of the Godhead. We have a Triune God; which is another name for the Trinity -- which is the union of three divine persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All are co-equal and co-eternal -- each having a different function within the Trinity. All three are God; yet, all three are different entities, different persons.

You might look at them in this way: God the Father is the Authority. God the Son is the Redeemer and our Intercessor with the Father. God the Holy Spirit is the Counselor -- He is the person who resides within us to guide us, to teach us, and to convict us when we are doing something which is not in the will of God the Father.

So, we have one God, manifested in Three Distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

However, if anyone does not completely understand or grasp this -- not to worry. No one does completely; it is one of the mysteries we will fully understand when we are face to face with Him in heaven. If anyone tells you that he fully understands the Trinity -- walk away. He is either a false teacher or he has escaped from the local psychiatric ward.

Can you truthfully say that you understand eternity? I don't. No matter how I try; my mind will just not fully grasp eternity -- time that never began and will never end. Think about it -- a billion years, a trillion years, a quadrillion years -- and that is just a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. It blows my mind.

The Trinity, or the Triune God, affects me the same way. This is why we are saved by the grace of God, through faith. Over and over, in Hebrews 11, we read, "By faith Abel -- By faith Enoch -- by faith Noah -- by faith Abraham, etc." By faith, they trusted God. By faith, you and I should be worshiping Jesus Christ and following Jesus Christ -- by faith.

Do we have to "dumb down" to follow by faith? No, absolutely not. Some of the smartest, most intelligent folks we know are now, or have been, followers of Jesus Christ -- by faith. So, for Bill Gray to follow Jesus Christ -- by faith -- seems the smartest thing I can do.

But, when we follow Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior -- we must be sure that we are following the Jesus Christ of the Bible; the eternally existing second Person of the Godhead -- and not some created being invented by those who want to use the name, Jesus Christ, but keep Him in the realm of created man. Jesus Christ was not created; He is the Creator.

John 1:1 tells us, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." What does this tell us? The phrase, "In the beginning was the Word" -- in Greek is, "en arche en ho logos." The en arche, in the beginning, is the same "in the beginning" we find in Genesis 1:1, when God created the heavens and the earth -- the beginning of time.

The phrase, "and the Word was with God" -- in Greek is, "kai ho logos en pros theos" -- which tells us that the Word, the Logos, Jesus Christ, was with God "in the beginning." Do you grasp this? In the beginning of our time, God the Father already was preexisting -- and Jesus Christ was preexisting with Him. Therefore both are God; for only God is preexisting and eternal.

The third phrase sets it in concrete. The phrase "and the Word was God" -- in Greek is, "kai theos en ho logos" -- which is literally saying, "and God was the Word." Think on that. This says that God was, and is, the Word, Jesus Christ.

From this, GoAhead, you and I both can see that Jesus Christ truly is God; God the Son. Do not accept anyone telling you anything different from this.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by _Monet-Lisa_:
Skeptic,

The only thing about relying on your own morality rather than Jesus (who when we accept him as our Savior becomes our attorney, pleading our case before God) is that one day when you stand before God (and you will someday) you will be judged by your own works to save you rather than Jesus' blood. No matter how 'good' you are in this life, you have sinned.

Everyone, at one time or other, has lied, lusted, stolen, etc. You will be judged by the ten commandments; and if you have broken even one...you are condemned. That is why Jesus came...because NONE of us are able to keep from sinning. That is why he gave the commandments, to show us we cannot keep them, we cannot be perfect like God, and to show us our NEED for Him. But, people have strived to keep commandments that are impossible to keep rather than rely on Jesus to cover our sins with His blood.

When we depend on Jesus, it frees us to no longer be under the law. It doesn't give us a right to break the commandments, but to not be under the stress of being "perfect".

Accepting Jesus and his forgiveness and saving grace is very simple; just accept Him. Don't fight, give in... and don't let your life end with this 'earthly' life when it can be eternal. I'll be praying for you.

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quote:
Originally posted by GOAHEADMAKEMYDAY:
So, to have you question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God doesn't seem to put you into the teaching of the Worldwide Church of God or any of the off-shoots. Therefore, I must ask, "Where do you get your teaching?"

not any teaching here, just a question that i had to ask and now i'm as confused as you are!!!

Hi GoAhead,

First, let me ask you, "What church do you attend?" I had thought you had indicated that you are in the Worldwide Church of God or one of its off-shoot churches.

What is it that you do not understand about Jesus Christ being God the Son? I am happy to dialogue with you if you like. While I don't have all the answers; I am not the least bit confused about Jesus Christ or that He is my Lord and Savior.

I am not sure what has confused you; but, let's talk about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by GOAHEADMAKEMYDAY:
So, to have you question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God doesn't seem to put you into the teaching of the Worldwide Church of God or any of the off-shoots. Therefore, I must ask, "Where do you get your teaching?"

not any teaching here, just a question that i had to ask and now i'm as confused as you are!!!

Hi GoAhead,

First, let me ask you, "What church do you attend?" I had thought you had indicated that you are in the Worldwide Church of God or one of its off-shoot churches.

What is it that you do not understand about Jesus Christ being God the Son? I am happy to dialogue with you if you like. While I don't have all the answers; I am not the least bit confused about Jesus Christ or that He is my Lord and Savior.

I am not sure what has confused you; but, let's talk about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


i never indicated affilation with any religion and never will because i'm not. you assume from my post that i'm a follower of the worldwide church,i'm not.i was merely questioning what you teach and sharing information i had found. i think we should always question..

the confusion is how all three can be the same!!! how God sacraficed Jesus who according to what you say are one in the same,how did he pull that off ?wouldnt that have ended His exsistance?? very confusing!!!!
Bill's favorite phrase of late, other than variations on homosexual such as gay, appears to be "conservative Christian."

What pray tell is that? A person who is conservative in polity or one who ultra-orthodox in theology?

Be it the former, then who cares, there are reactionaries who call themselves Christian, those who are actually conservative, those who are liberal and those who are radical.

If it be the latter, then does that mean that they reject all but orthodox creeds and councilar decisions of Nicea and reject Chalcedon as innovations?

This is nothing but a sound bite phrase, meaning nothing but sounding mighty fine.

I think that Bill should use the phrase "vaguely Calvinistic biblolator gay-obsessed Triburapturist" in his self descriptions of his religion. We may short hand that to "World's Best (self-described) Christian," they are also known collectively as Flying Monkey Agents of Wrath.
quote:
Originally posted by GOAHEADMAKEMYDAY:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by GOAHEADMAKEMYDAY:
So, to have you question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God doesn't seem to put you into the teaching of the Worldwide Church of God or any of the off-shoots. Therefore, I must ask, "Where do you get your teaching?"

not any teaching here, just a question that i had to ask and now i'm as confused as you are!!!

Hi GoAhead,

First, let me ask you, "What church do you attend?" I had thought you had indicated that you are in the Worldwide Church of God or one of its off-shoot churches.

What is it that you do not understand about Jesus Christ being God the Son? I am happy to dialogue with you if you like. While I don't have all the answers; I am not the least bit confused about Jesus Christ or that He is my Lord and Savior.

I am not sure what has confused you; but, let's talk about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


i never indicated affilation with any religion and never will because i'm not. you assume from my post that i'm a follower of the worldwide church,i'm not.i was merely questioning what you teach and sharing information i had found. i think we should always question..

the confusion is how all three can be the same!!! how God sacraficed Jesus who according to what you say are one in the same,how did he pull that off ?wouldnt that have ended His exsistance?? very confusing!!!!

Hi GoAhead,

To better answer your questions, and to get out of the muddle this discussion has become -- I have started a new discussion. Take a look at the new discussion Let's Talk About God, The Trinity, And Eternity!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
quote:
Originally posted by Eye-gor:
? Bill, you're frothing at the mouth again. I have no idea where you're getting this information or what it means but you're wrong. The only other person on this forum besides you who accuses me of being someone else is a person who lied about being an English instructor in Memphis to laud her own story. Are you taking the word of a liar over someone who has never misrepresented themself?



An good friend of mine dates a lady in Memphis now. What a coincidence.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Let's not. It's all nonsense, after all. DF

Sorry, my Friend,

You were not invited. Why do you insist upon being the party crasher? I am sure that if you will ask the TD they will make you an Atheist Forum -- where all three or four of you can play to your hearts content.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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