I read something today that made me wonder...

What if you substitute the word forsake for leave. Does it make sense to you now? God will never forsake you.

Well if we are going to substitute why don't we substitute forsake with protect
Wouldn't that be just as accurate?

The thing said "leave" not "forsake".

Jesus said, "In this life you will have many troubles." Preachers that preach "what their itching ears want to hear" are teaching false doctrine.

Living right does not guarantee wealth and positive thinking doesn't cure cancer or keep criminals from committing crimes against the innocent. Either EVERYone has free will, from criminals to Mother Teresa, or it doesn't exist.

He will never leave you no matter what life throws at you. He will hold you up and comfort you through the tough times and cheer you on through the good times.

I don't know why miracles happen to some and not to others, but I trust God to know because unlike every other person in my life just being human, He has NEVER forsaken me or left me.

quote:

If your god allows free will and at any given time something bad can happen to you, what exactly does he do while "never leaving you"?

He sits back and lets you make your own choices.

Think of it this way. A parent tries to help their kid. Their kid insists they can do it themselves. So the parent allows their kid to try, fail, and show them where they went wrong. Same thing with God. He allows us to make our own decisions, fail, realize where we went wrong and learn a better way.

Joy I appreciate your answer.
I still don't understand what he is doing if he never leaves you yet you can still be the victim of another person's evil?

Either he is with you (protecting you) or he's not (leaving you).

He is not protecting me from the crime. He is helping me keep my sanity. If he protected me from the crime, He just took away the criminal's free will. Free will for ALL or it doesn't exist.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Jesus said, "In this life you will have many troubles." Preachers that preach "what their itching ears want to hear" are teaching false doctrine.

Living right does not guarantee wealth and positive thinking doesn't cure cancer or keep criminals from committing crimes against the innocent. Either EVERYone has free will, from criminals to Mother Teresa, or it doesn't exist.

He will never leave you no matter what life throws at you. He will hold you up and comfort you through the tough times and cheer you on through the good times.

I don't know why miracles happen to some and not to others, but I trust God to know because unlike every other person in my life just being human, He has NEVER forsaken me or left me.

Hi Joy,

Well said!

Well said, Joy

The question raised by member "fineazell1" ("I still don't understand what he {the Almighty, ed.} is doing if he never leaves you yet you can still be the victim of another person's evil.") is of sufficient complexity that space will not permit a complete answer to the myriad issues which surround it.

These "forums" and others like them, quite simply, are not designed for detailed defenses of positions.

That's why research and publications are the lifeblood of the academic community.

Suffice it to say however, that the example of our Great Patriarch Joseph can provide some clues.

In the Genesis account, in chapter 50 verse 20 where it's recorded that Joseph said, "As for you, it was in your mind to do me evil, but God has given a happy outcome, the salvation of numbers of people, as you see today." {BBE}

As Christians, we frequently give mental ascent to the fact that Joseph was sold into slavery, perhaps tortured, and then imprisoned, then falsely accused of rape and imprisoned again, then languored while forgotten, though promises were made to free him.

Finally, he comes out on top.

However, what we as Christians ALWAYS forget is that God was guiding that string of failures for His purposes, and for His glory.

And in our lives, we seem to frequently forget that God is in control. We are not. We do not control our circumstances, the actions of others or quite frankly, anything. We are not, however, some kind of puppets on a string. We are made for relationship, with each other and with Him. Those relationships are for our benefit and His ultimate glory.

For example, when was the last time you ever saw a marriage relationship which was held in such esteem that even casual observers saw the glory of God in it? Yet, that is one, and the Ultimate purpose of marriage.

So... the long and short of it is this: Our reliance upon a loving Heavenly Father, as a matter of faith and statement of our wholehearted trust in Him, is to glorify Him, in and through every event, good or bad.

Colloquially, there is someone in this forum whom has a statement that addresses it rather well. I believe is says something to the effect that "if everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane."

Historically, our Christain brethren in other cultures and throughout history can attest that trial and tribulation are part and parcel of the human experience, yet His divine mercies cause us to grow emotionally and in our spiritual walk with Him that effectively transcends us to a higher level upon this Earth.

Amen.

It also reminds me of the scripture (Romans 8:28)
All things (good & bad) work together for good to them that love God.
That scripture reminds me, when things seem to be going wrong, that God is always in control...and eventually, if I keep faith in Him, He will work things out for the best.

So god is with the child who it tortured to death. He is either helpless to act, in which case he is not omnipotent, or he chooses not to act, in which case he cannot be said to be "good" by any human definition.

When we use our heads and our courage, we must admit it's most likely there is no god who cares one whit about us.

DF

Yes, Deep, God is with the child and in your scenario will be physically holding that child shortly. Were God to force the criminal's hand, free will would cease. Either everyone has free will or it doesn't exist.

Gail, I like that verse, too. Although we obviously prefer good, bad stuff will happen. God can bring good even from terrible circumstances for those that follow Him.

The scripture that comes to mind is "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

I have heard it said that God is not so much concerned with our circumstances as our character. I know that sounds harsh and unloving but in reality God is concerned with the eternal because that is the most important. Like Shoals Lover said, we often have to let our kids go thru hard things and it is for their good in the end.

I have read, and I'd have to find the exact quote, that someone did a computer program to compare our lives to eternity and in reality our lives are about 7 seconds long. The Bible says our lives are "but a vapour". To us hard times, sufferings, pain, last "forever" but compared to eternity they are very short.

Romans 8:18 tells us, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

I can't explain it as well as Joy did but I believe that He orders my steps, does what is best for me with eternity in view and never leaves my side whatever may come. My pastor says "no one minds the way when the way leads home" and I guess that sums it up for me.

I think you explained it very well, readaholic, and in much of life's difficulties, so does your tagline.

My dear Joy,

Sorry if I find that answer unsatisfying.

What if this was the pervert's 12th torturing? It happens.

One would think the perv's free will was a matter of record long before then, and god would have made the proper arrangements.

And do you think for one minute that the little girl who was being tortured to death did not exercise her free will and ask god to intervene and save her? Why was the criminal's free will superior to hers?

"Free Will" is a cop out. It's an easy answer to the vagueries of god's indifference to human affairs.

If there was a god, and he answers prayers, and there is any justice in the world, why would one pervert's free will supersede a little girl's innocence and earnest prayer?

If there is a god who would engage in human sacrifice for any reason, and there are many biblical and other examples of his delight in that institution, then he is unworthy of worship.

When conflicting Free Wills occur, shouldn't the righteous Free Will prevail? Or is it a matter of earthly reality that "Free Will" has nothing whatever to do with any god?


DF

in the USA human sacrifice takes place every day....it's called abortion. God has his people (Christians) opposing and fighting against it; yet there are many here on this forum who approve of it. Now whose free will should trump the others?

Monet/gail,

In the first place, abortion is not sacrifice. No gods are placated by them, no floods averted, no earthquakes delayed. This should be obvious to a nitwit, but it's gone past you.

Second, a fetus has no will whatever, much less the nebulous "free" will that is the excuse for god's indifference to his beloved children. When the rights, preferences, and necessities of an unviable fetus and a living, breathing human woman are compared, the woman's must come first, or else humanity has no compassion or justice whatever.

It strikes me as no surprise that the religious nut class sees it different. Religion is the antithesis of morality, among other things.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
So god is with the child who it tortured to death. He is either helpless to act, in which case he is not omnipotent, or he chooses not to act, in which case he cannot be said to be "good" by any human definition. DF

Deep,

That is tired old atheist rhetoric and has been laid to rest many, many years ago. If you are going to deny God; at least come up with something original. Surely, you can think of something to prove God does not exist without having to parrot long dead atheists.

Oh, I forgot, you also parrot Dawkins. One day, my Friend, I hope to read something which is uniquely Deep rhetoric.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Second, a fetus has no will whatever, much less the nebulous "free" will that is the excuse for god's indifference to his beloved children.

A person who is unconscious has no free will either. That doesn't mean that you are expendable if you lose consciousness. You are still living and breathing. To kill someone who has lost consciousness and doesn't have the free will to resist is still a crime.

Christopher Reed was inviable, he couldn't survive on his own without outside assistance from his respirator, feeding tube, and such. Would it have been morally wrong if someone had killed him?

A fetus is a living being as well. Like any other animal, it has a preservation of life instinct. However, it doesn't have the ability to fight or flee yet. That doesn't make it morally right to terminate someone's life simply because they don't have the ability to resist.

I'm not for making abortion illegal, that doesn't solve the problem. Education and having birth control cheap and available is the best solution. The moral justifications of abortion just doesn't hold water since they ignore the rights and choices of the father and the individual who would be aborted.

quote:

Religion is the antithesis of morality, among other things.

Please explain.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
My dear Joy,

Sorry if I find that answer unsatisfying.

What if this was the pervert's 12th torturing? It happens.

One would think the perv's free will was a matter of record long before then, and god would have made the proper arrangements.

And do you think for one minute that the little girl who was being tortured to death did not exercise her free will and ask god to intervene and save her? Why was the criminal's free will superior to hers?

"Free Will" is a cop out. It's an easy answer to the vagueries of god's indifference to human affairs.

If there was a god, and he answers prayers, and there is any justice in the world, why would one pervert's free will supersede a little girl's innocence and earnest prayer?

If there is a god who would engage in human sacrifice for any reason, and there are many biblical and other examples of his delight in that institution, then he is unworthy of worship.

When conflicting Free Wills occur, shouldn't the righteous Free Will prevail? Or is it a matter of earthly reality that "Free Will" has nothing whatever to do with any god?


DF

Of course. Where was God?

This is timely, Sheriff: Found Remains 'Very Strong Lead In Solving' Caylee Case Missing Girl Last Seen In Mid-June

And we know her blood was found in the trunk of her mother's car, and now it is almost certain that this is her remains and believed that she was tortured and abused.

But, she was never forsaken by her God. It is all part of God's plan and we should never question it. Uh huh, yeah right. If so, I don't want anything to do with it. This imaginary man that lives in the sky is either sick or a coward, probably both.

The truth is that he really doesn't exist, except between an otherwise rational person's ears. God didn't protect this innocent little girl because he couldn't.

If you want to get together and form a support group and cherry pick some biblical guidelines to live by, I'm perfectly ok with that. However, when you hit your knees and look up to the sky and profess God is up there and this is under his control and he chooses when and who to miraculously save, you're obviously very, very, confused.

There is a reason God's wishes or commands don't hold up in court, there's no evidence for it. So while people are wasting time praying over this, there's intelligent law enforcement out there using science to bring this killer to justice.

If I'm murdered, don't pray for me, get a freaking posse together and go get the bastids that did it and let them have their day in court.

Regards

DeepFISH,

The god that these babies are being sacrificed for is the god of *self*. You know, the god you worship...SELF...'I can do everything mySELF, I owe all I have to mySELF, everything revolves around mySELF. How I live
revolves around mySELFish needs and wants'....

Those children are sacrificed because someone doesn't want to bother with an unwanted child because it would require a sacrifice on the part of themSELVES...
(..and GOD puts a will in all of us at conception...the WILL TO LIVE...)

You know, that god.

(not talking about rape or incest here or dying mother.. but the other millions)

Nash,

Good points. We will hardly come to the bottom of medical and reproductive ethics here, but let's continue the discussion.

We assign certain rights at certain milestones of life. One can't drive before age 16 or buy a gun until 21. These are arbitrary, but arrived at as a compromise of experience and necessity.

At the third trimester, a fetus is granted certain rights because at that time it is naturally capable of living on its own. It no longer needs the permission of its mother.

After birth, we humans grant lots of rights to ourselves. Often to excess.

The Terry Schiavo case is just one example. Her body was kept alive long after her brain became irrevocably damaged and ruined. You're familiar with the situation. One of the big questions it brings up is: What duty does society have to ensure life to a body that, more or less "in nature", would not survive?
It's complicated.

We keep coma patients alive because they can, and do, snap out of them. We would want others to keep us alive in comas. Chris Reeves' body was ruined, but his mind remained sharp. He was fully human, and deserved the right to life. Others, however, write "living wills" precluding "heroic measures" to keep them alive in case they deteriorate into Permanent Vegetative States.

As I said, there are few discreet answers to these questions.

We were talking about Free Will. It's pretty obvious that one must be aware of one's surroundings and capable of choosing from among alternatives to exercise Free Will, don't you think?

DF

quote:

The Terry Schiavo case is just one example. Her body was kept alive long after her brain became irrevocably damaged and ruined. You're familiar with the situation. One of the big questions it brings up is: What duty does society have to ensure life to a body that, more or less "in nature", would not survive?
It's complicated.

We keep coma patients alive because they can, and do, snap out of them. We would want others to keep us alive in comas. Chris Reeves' body was ruined, but his mind remained sharp. He was fully human, and deserved the right to life. Others, however, write "living wills" precluding "heroic measures" to keep them alive in case they deteriorate into Permanent Vegetative States.

As I said, there are few discreet answers to these questions.

We were talking about Free Will. It's pretty obvious that one must be aware of one's surroundings and capable of choosing from among alternatives to exercise Free Will, don't you think?

There have been many studies on fetal response to stimuli. Here's one I found.

Link

"The outcome of these samples demonstrated that 87.5% of experimental infants can recognize maternal voice and 70% recognize to prenatal music. They calm down significantly when giving a prenatal music, heart beat sound, rhythmic patting and rocking pattern which they ever received during in utero. This suggests that fetus can learn variety of sensory stimuli even before birth and these previous experiences they received in utero may influence postnatal learning and perception."

So the fetus is aware of it's surroundings, it's mind is more aware than that of a coma patient. As early as 9 weeks into the pregnancy the fetus has enough mental ability to move it's body.

Link

"It is now well established that the human fetus is capable of some degree of behavioral complexity. In fact, as early as the 9th week of gestation the fetus is able to spontaneously move the extremities, head, and trunk (de Vries, Visser, & Prechtl, 1985). It has also been suggested that the near term fetus may be endowed with some degree of cognitive capability"

9 weeks is during the first trimester. An abortion can take place as late as 21 weeks without being considered a late term abortion. Keep in mind that the youngest surviving premature baby was born at 23 weeks.

So between 9 and 21 weeks, the brain is able to move the body and develop even further to a point where it responds to outside stimuli. The point of becoming cognisant is known to happen before birth, the exact point is unknown.

So let's put this in a real world situation. Let's say I've been in an accident and I suffered severe brain damage. I'm dependant on outside assistance to live. My brain is only able to spontaneously move my body. It is believed that I am unaware of my surroundings, I have no free will to make my own decisions. However, I'm showing a rapid rate of improvement and should be able to survive on my own in 3 to 4 months. The hospital makes the decision to terminate my life for their own reasons.

Did I die unjustly or did the hospital have the moral right to make their decision since I was dependant on them for my life?

Miamiz,

It never ceases to amaze me that people convince themselves that god favors one football team over another, or preserves them from their imaginary inner demons, but refuses, point-blank, to rescue innocents from real, painful demons when they arise in the flesh.

What utter hubris and conceit. And what an insulting image of god that he helps someone quit smoking (abrogating Free Will, indeed), but allows children to be tortured to death.

DF

Deep, I'd bet money that science will heal an amputee before God does too.

If there's a gap, you can rest assured someone assumes a God is in there. The problem is that the gaps are being filled slowly but surely with good evidence, leaving all Gods out in the cold.

And who gets the miracles? And who gets to suffer the horrible death? God(s) only knows.

quote:

It never ceases to amaze me that people convince themselves that god favors one football team over another, or preserves them from their imaginary inner demons, but refuses, point-blank, to rescue innocents from real, painful demons when they arise in the flesh.

What utter hubris and conceit. And what an insulting image of god that he helps someone quit smoking (abrogating Free Will, indeed), but allows children to be tortured to death.

Let's assume that there is a God and an afterlife. A mad man makes a decision and tortures a child to death. By "chance", enough evidence is left at the seen, the mad man is caught by police, convicted, and locked away for life where he can't hurt any one else. The child is welcomed by God into Heaven and spends eternity in place far better than this short existence, never feeling pain again. So how is this evidence that God is indifferent? If He was indifferent, why would the child be in Heaven?

quote:

Deep, I'd bet money that science will heal an amputee before God does too.

Here is a site about a man born with no arms or legs. Read about some of his accomplishments, he's done far more than I have in my life.

Link

So why should God heal him?

A video showing his daily life.

Link

Nash, your question confuses me. How can you be so indifferent?

If life on earth has no meaning, and god takes his own, why be religious?

What if the criminal is never caught? He perpetrates several of these torture killings every year for many years. Why didn't god gauge his "Free Will" after the first couple or three and act accordingly? Instead, he allows much human suffering for nothing. Yet, he loves us?

It's nonsense.

DF

quote:

Nash, your question confuses me. How can you be so indifferent?

If life on earth has no meaning, and god takes his own, why be religious?

What if the criminal is never caught? He perpetrates several of these torture killings every year for many years. Why didn't god gauge his "Free Will" after the first couple or three and act accordingly? Instead, he allows much human suffering for nothing. Yet, he loves us?

It's nonsense.

It's not indifference, life does have meaning, we're all God's own and He'll take us all.

One common theme among just about every religion is Karma, or you reap what you so. There are many different names for the concept, but what you do in life can come back to you. Committing such an act of evil won't go unpunished. Those types of people are almost always caught and are punished in this life in one way or another. Look at the life of Jeffery Dahmer for example. That didn't end too well.

This life is so brief, it's over in an instant. There is something greater for us after this life that is beyond what our minds can comprehend. Yes, God is concerned with our welfare here, but His main concern is our welfare afterwards. What happened to the girl in Florida was horrific and should have never happened. That doesn't mean there God does not exist because her mom made an evil choice, it means that evil does exist. Those who are religious feel sad for the loss of such a young life, but comfort knowing that she is with God now and will never feel pain again, only joy and peace.

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:

quote:

It never ceases to amaze me that people convince themselves that god favors one football team over another, or preserves them from their imaginary inner demons, but refuses, point-blank, to rescue innocents from real, painful demons when they arise in the flesh.

What utter hubris and conceit. And what an insulting image of god that he helps someone quit smoking (abrogating Free Will, indeed), but allows children to be tortured to death.

Let's assume that there is a God and an afterlife. A mad man makes a decision and tortures a child to death. By "chance", enough evidence is left at the seen, the mad man is caught by police, convicted, and locked away for life where he can't hurt any one else. The child is welcomed by God into Heaven and spends eternity in place far better than this short existence, never feeling pain again. So how is this evidence that God is indifferent? If He was indifferent, why would the child be in Heaven?

quote:

Deep, I'd bet money that science will heal an amputee before God does too.

Here is a site about a man born with no arms or legs. Read about some of his accomplishments, he's done far more than I have in my life.

Link

So why should God heal him?

A video showing his daily life.

Link

Hi Nash,

There is also the living example of Joni Eareckson Tada who, as a very athletic teenager, was injured in a diving accident which left her a quadriplegic.

Before her accident, Joni was a nominal Chrisitan. However, since then she has, in her wheelchair, been a very effective witness for the goodness of God's love.

In this life, Joni will never be physically healed. But, she has accomplished more for God in her handicap that most of us will ever accomplish in our perfect health.

God has a plan for all who will, by grace through faith, follow Jesus Christ. And, God never has to say, "Oops!"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

One common theme among just about every religion is Karma, or you reap what you so [sic].

Some around here had better hope not. Some around here spread hatred, divisiveness, bigotry, clannishness, ignorance, retrogressiveness, lies, and violence. All in the name of god, Jaysus, or their own personal religions.

If there is karma, and I've no reason to think there is, although it would be awfully comforting to think so, then a healthy skepticism of the supernatural and a generous spirit of love for all life would be appropriate.

As a basis for further development, can we agree on this?


DF

quote:

Some around here had better hope not. Some around here spread hatred, divisiveness, bigotry, clannishness, ignorance, retrogressiveness, lies, and violence. All in the name of god, Jaysus, or their own personal religions.

If there is karma, and I've no reason to think there is, although it would be awfully comforting to think so, then a healthy skepticism of the supernatural and a generous spirit of love for all life would be appropriate.

As a basis for further development, can we agree on this?

Now I'm embarrassed. We reap what we sow. At least I didn't type sew.

A healthy skepticism is needed for everything, not just the supernatural. There is a guy that pretends to cast demons out of people and makes a fortune doing it. My skepticism says that it's total BS. Earnest Angley slapping people in the head and "healing" them, doesn't take a genius to see that's BS. UFO's abducting people, psychics talking to your dead aunt, a giant monkey man in the woods leaving footprints. A rational skeptic can see it's all BS.

Just like there is an internet movie going around claiming that the story of Jesus is the story of Hours and a number of other ancient gods. My skeptic nature proved that it's BS. We have to be skeptical of everything if we are to truly say we are of rational free thinkers. One can still be an atheist and determine that those claims were completely false.

I do agree that a love of life and our fellow people is important. Life is too short to spread hatred, bigotry, and judge others. That's what Christ taught, to love our neighbors, or enemies, and to be generous givers of our time and treasure. Those who choose to spend their time condemning others and spreading hate in Jesus' name is doing the exact opposite of what He taught.

From what I've seen, that's a main reason why people reject Christianity, because too many people calling themselves Christians act like complete douchebags.

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:

quote:

If your god allows free will and at any given time something bad can happen to you, what exactly does he do while "never leaving you"?

He sits back and lets you make your own choices.

Think of it this way. A parent tries to help their kid. Their kid insists they can do it themselves. So the parent allows their kid to try, fail, and show them where they went wrong. Same thing with God. He allows us to make our own decisions, fail, realize where we went wrong and learn a better way.

I will think of it this way. A parent tell a child not to walk on the railroad tracks. Kid keeps doing it. Parent allows child to make this decision. Parent doesn't grab child from tracks. Child gets run over by a train while the parent is watching. Successful educational lesson. Child will never walk on tracks again.

God gave the nazis free will to kill 6 million Jews. God stood by and watched. Did these unfortunate Jews learn a lesson? I guess they should have known better than to enter Nazi death camps. That's OK, God. We know you would have helped them if you weren't powerless.

quote:

retrogressiveness

Deep Fat, this word you have created pleases me.

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:


Let's assume that there is a God and an afterlife. A mad man makes a decision and tortures a child to death. By "chance", enough evidence is left at the seen, the mad man is caught by police, convicted, and locked away for life where he can't hurt any one else. The child is welcomed by God into Heaven and spends eternity in place far better than this short existence, never feeling pain again. So how is this evidence that God is indifferent? If He was indifferent, why would the child be in Heaven?


So why should God heal him?

As to the first, how can the child be in heaven, she hasn't been "saved", yet?

Why should God do anything?

Anyone that thinks God is interfering in their lives is living a life of self-delusion.

quote:

Originally posted by davidnmiles:

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:

quote:

If your god allows free will and at any given time something bad can happen to you, what exactly does he do while "never leaving you"?

He sits back and lets you make your own choices.

Think of it this way. A parent tries to help their kid. Their kid insists they can do it themselves. So the parent allows their kid to try, fail, and show them where they went wrong. Same thing with God. He allows us to make our own decisions, fail, realize where we went wrong and learn a better way.

I will think of it this way. A parent tell a child not to walk on the railroad tracks. Kid keeps doing it. Parent allows child to make this decision. Parent doesn't grab child from tracks. Child gets run over by a train while the parent is watching. Successful educational lesson. Child will never walk on tracks again.

God gave the nazis free will to kill 6 million Jews. God stood by and watched. Did these unfortunate Jews learn a lesson? I guess they should have known better than to enter Nazi death camps. That's OK, God. We know you would have helped them if you weren't powerless.

Which brings us back to the original post on this thread which said,"It said god would never leave you." I keep wondering how one reconciles Christianity vs Judaism. Did God break His covenant with the Jews?

Thanks, Eye-gor,

Use it in good health.


DF

quote:

As to the first, how can the child be in heaven, she hasn't been "saved", yet?

Mark 10:14
"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

There are plenty of other verses discussing the innocence of children and why they have a place in Heaven.

quote:

I will think of it this way. A parent tell a child not to walk on the railroad tracks. Kid keeps doing it. Parent allows child to make this decision. Parent doesn't grab child from tracks. Child gets run over by a train while the parent is watching. Successful educational lesson. Child will never walk on tracks again.

God gave the nazis free will to kill 6 million Jews. God stood by and watched. Did these unfortunate Jews learn a lesson? I guess they should have known better than to enter Nazi death camps. That's OK, God. We know you would have helped them if you weren't powerless.

Not a good example. If the parent makes every attempt possible to save the child from walking on the tracks and the child ignores them, is it the fault of the child or the parent? The same goes with us. If God makes every attempt for us to be saved and we ignore him, is that our fault or His?

As for the Holocaust, God didn't allow it to happen, we did. Why didn't He stop it? Not really sure. To fully understand the ways of God is the same as my dog to fully understand my computer, impossible.

It's the same circular logic that Christians get blamed for. Bad things happen because there is no God. Because there is no God, bad things happen. It's a short sighted view on things and only works if you are determined not to believe in God no matter what.

Here is a good take on the issue, only one person's theory, but it makes sense.

Link

quote:

Not a good example. If the parent makes every attempt possible to save the child from walking on the tracks and the child ignores them, is it the fault of the child or the parent?

In other words it is OK for the parents to let the kid get run over by the train while they stand there and watch. It is absolutely the fault of the parent.

Just as it is the fault of an all-knowing, all-powerful god if 15 million children under the age of six die every year from lack of food. Why doesn't the big fella at least throw them an ort.

Only Catholics and a few Calvinists teach that a child is ****ed. A child doesn't need to be saved. Its safe because it hasn't yet sinned.