If God Breaks Covenants - Does Anyone Have Security?

hey Bill I am not trying to make you look bad or anything of that Nature, I will admit that you have a zeal for the word of God but there is a Problem, you have also told us twice here lately that you are living in Adultery, I know that it is none of my business but according to 1st corinthians 6:9 which I have seen you quote on here it will cause you to be lost, 1Cor 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men.
1Cor 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

It is a bad thing but there is only one way you can correct it and I know you won't do it.

quote:

Originally posted by prince albert:
hey Bill I am not trying to make you look bad or anything of that Nature, I will admit that you have a zeal for the word of God but there is a Problem, you have also told us twice here lately that you are living in Adultery.

Hi Albert,

Yes, I was married before and divorced -- long before I was a Christian believer. I also did MANY other things which were very wrong BEFORE I became a believer. And, today, I still am a sinner (Romans 3:23). But, praise God -- when I became a believer -- my sins were washed away and I am covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. God does not see my scarlet sins -- only the pure, white righteousness of Jesus Christ when He looks upon Bill Gray.

So, no, I am not living in adultery. But, in your Legalism, I guess you can call me whatever you like. I have no doubts about my salvation, nor my Jesus promised eternal security.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

God does not see my scarlet sins -- only the pure, white righteousness of Jesus Christ when He looks upon Bill Gray.

This is very delusional and a little disturbing. You think God doesn't see your sins? wow. God sees it all, Bill. You are not a sinless creature.
When He looks upon me, I hope that He will find a sinner: humble and forgiving. I hope and pray that He will FORGIVE my sins, and grant me mercy. But I do know that He does see my sins...more clearly, and feels them more deeply than anyone. They are an insult against Him, and for that we plead for mercy.
God doesn't see Jesus when He looks at you, Bill. Once again, I must remind you of our call to humility.

And as for the adultery, Bill. You say
"my sins were washed away and I am covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. "
But Bill...are you not continuing to sin? When did you stop?

Bill I will leave it up to you and God, I know that he will make all things right in the Judgement, have a good Night.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

God does not see my scarlet sins -- only the pure, white righteousness of Jesus Christ when He looks upon Bill Gray.

This is very delusional and a little disturbing. You think God doesn't see your sins? wow. God sees it all, Bill. You are not a sinless creature.
When He looks upon me, I hope that He will find a sinner: humble and forgiving. I hope and pray that He will FORGIVE my sins, and grant me mercy. But I do know that He does see my sins...more clearly, and feels them more deeply than anyone. They are an insult against Him, and for that we plead for mercy.
God doesn't see Jesus when He looks at you, Bill. Once again, I must remind you of our call to humility.

And as for the adultery, Bill. You say
"my sins were washed away and I am covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. "
But Bill...are you not continuing to sin? When did you stop?

Hi VP,

Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.

Psalm 51:7, "Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."

Revelation 7:14, "I said to him, 'My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'"

Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Bye y'all

Bill

Right. And what is bound on earth shall be bound in Heaven,
the sins that you retain will be retained.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Right. And what is bound on earth shall be bound in Heaven,
the sins that you retain will be retained.

Hi, my Friend,

You need to go back and study the Biblical meaning of that -- not the RC Tradition passed down by some man.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You forgot these, Mr. Bill.

Micah 7:18-19 (New International Version)
18 Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
19 You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.

Psalm 103:8-18 (New International Version)
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass,
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the LORD's love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children's children-
18 with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.

Isaiah 43:25 (New International Version)
25 "I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

Eccl 12:1 Remember also thy Creator in the days of thy youth, before the evil days come, and the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; We wasn't put here to act like everybody does, we were put here to prepare ourselves for the next Life, but everaybody says, "I'm going out and have a good time and see what these Women are about" I did the same thing, like Solomom said it is all Vanity and vexation of Spirit, he loved them too he had 300 wives and 700 Concubines, wonder if he looked give out all the time? I hope everything works out for the better.

quote:

Originally posted by prince albert:
Eccl 12:1 Remember also thy Creator in the days of thy youth, before the evil days come, and the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; We wasn't put here to act like everybody does, we were put here to prepare ourselves for the next Life, but everybody says, "I'm going out and have a good time and see what these Women are about" I did the same thing, like Solomon said it is all Vanity and vexation of Spirit, he loved them too he had 300 wives and 700 Concubines, wonder if he looked give out all the time? I hope everything works out for the better.

Hi Albert,

But, we are told in Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

In John 6:47, Jesus tells us, "Truly, truly (adding emphasis), I say to you, he who believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE."

So, according to Jesus Christ -- I have eternal life -- and there is NOW no condemnation for me. Praise the Lord!

Albert, in a lot of ways you remind me of a guy in my quonset hut in Korea in 1956-57. He was a legalistic Christian -- and when he would play a Christian song on his record player that had a good beat -- he would get upset because I felt like dancing to the beat. He would tell me I was blaspheming God. Yet, in the Bible, David and many others danced to honor God.

But, I am not knocking you for your beliefs. For you to act differently would be wrong; for that is your belief system. Like the apostle Paul told us, if in your heart you believe eating meat offered to idols is wrong; then, for you that is a sin. But, for those who know, as Paul said, that it is only meat and has no significance -- for the idols are only wood, stone, and clay -- then, the meat is only nourishment and not a sin.

God bless, my Friend, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill says, "So, according to Jesus Christ -- I have eternal life -- and there is NOW no condemnation for me. Praise the Lord!"

the holy Bible lists a few sins that are unforgivable such as denying the Holy Spirit. Corinthians seems to be very clear on the subject that adultry is one of those, too

so how is it that one person can deny the holy Spirit and be unforgiving yet you get off Scott free? According to you, there is no unforgivble sin?

quote:

Beter, Hebrews 9 initially speaks of the Levitical sacrifices required under the Law; then introduces Jesus Christ as the New Covenant. Yes, He is the New Covenant which brings us from the dispensation of the Law, which could only offer temporary atonement for sin -- into the dispensation of Grace, which, through Jesus Christ, offers us eternal atonement for sin.

Yet, this New Covenant in no way invalidates God's covenant of Law -- it just refines it and adds to it. We are still bound by the Ten Commandments; Jesus just compressed the ten into two clarified commandments -- love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your being (the first four of the Ten Commandments) and love your neighbor as yourself (the last six of the Ten Commandments). The Law was given to make us aware of our sin nature; Jesus Christ came to offer us, by grace, through faith, full atonement and salvation through his sacrificed blood -- eternal security.

No, Bill.

Hebrews 8:8 & 9:

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

"New" is not the same as "old." New is not the same as "refines and adds to it."

"Not according to" means not in keeping with. Thayer defines it as meaning not "as," or not "like as," or not "of likeness."

The new covenant is not a refinement of the old one or an addition to it. It is an entirely new covenant.

Are you a Sabbatarian, Bill? You say, "We are still bound by the Ten Commandments." If the 10 Comandments are still in force as part of the old covenant, then you ought to be meeting with your fellow triburapturists on Saturdays for worship instead of on Sunday.

Finally, how do you reconcile your notion of the continuation of the Levitical (Mosaic) covenant with the plain teaching of Colossians 2: 13-15?

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross...

When something is "blotted out" and "[taken] out of the way," it can hardly be described as something that has simply been refined and added to, as you assert. Oh, it can be described that way, albeit irrationally, so long as one's objective in describing it is to try to make the passage consistent with one's tribrapturist fantasies about the differential treatment of the "chosen people" in the "end times."

Hi Beter,

You raise good points. However, you have missed the point of Hebrews 8, 9, and 10. Several things we know for sure. God gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments and His Law as temporary governance which was itself not faultless. God's full plan was to give them the Law to make them aware of their sin nature, their sins, and He gave them temporary means of atonement -- the sacrifice of animals. Because the sacrifice of animals was only a type of the sacrifice of Christ -- they had to repeat it over and over again.

However, His full plan was that Jesus Christ would be the Perfect Sacrifice which would offer a "once for all" sacrifice for the atonement of all who will, by grace, through faith -- believe and receive His "paid in full" free gift of salvation. God's plan was, and is, for His chosen people, Israel, to receive their Messiah, Jesus Christ. At this time, they will become part of His church; His full atonement.

Yet, realizing this would not happen as He desired -- His Plan B, which in His omniscience was truly His Plan A all time -- is the Tribulation, the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Jeremiah 30 tells of God's future plan for bringing His people back and restoring Israel as a nation. It also talks about the Time of Jacob's Distress or Trouble -- and, in verse 11, tells the Israelite, ". . .Only I will not destroy you completely. But I will chasten you justly, and by no means leave you unpunished." This is a prophecy of the Tribulation when God will chasten His chosen people, Israel -- but, He will not destroy them completely. A remnant of His chosen people will survive the Tribulation and will, finally, receive their Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Yet, even though they are, or will be, Messianic Jews and part of the family of God -- they will still stand separately as His chosen people. You and I are part of His church; but, not part of His chosen people. And, His chosen people will have a special place in His eternal kingdom.

So, Hebrews 8 is speaking of the Old and the New covenant; the New being Jesus Christ and His "once for all" sacrificial atonement. God writes of Israel in Hebrews 8:8-10, reflecting what He spoke to the prophet in Jeremiah 31:31-34, "Because finding fault with them, He says: 'Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.'"

So, in Hebrews 8:8 and in Jeremiah 31:31, when God speaks of making a new covenant with Israel; what does He mean? The Old Covenant was based upon works, man working to please God through sacrifices, etc. The New Covenant is based upon the faithfulness of God, and His sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to die "once for all" thus replacing the works of the Law with the grace of God. Initially, God wrote His Law upon stone tablets given to Moses. Today, God writes His law into the hearts of believers; sealed by the indwelling nature of the Holy Spirit.

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel writes in his commentary of Hebrews 8:

Now Christ has been the mediator of a new covenant, which is a better covenant, because it is established on better promises. Why? Because the new covenant is not predicated upon my faithfulness. The new covenant is predicated upon God's faithfulness. The new covenant is not predicated upon my work. The new covenant is predicated upon God's work. And because the new covenant is predicated upon the faithfulness and the work of God, it shall stand. It's good.

I can enjoy it and be blessed by it, because it isn't conditioned upon me. It is conditioned upon God and His faithfulness. So, the new covenant is a better covenant. The New Testament superior to the Old Testament, or the new covenant superior to the Old Testament, because it is based upon better promises of the work that God has wrought through Jesus Christ, that finished work. Once and for all, offering the sacrifice, and now my just believing in Him. And that is the condition, my believing in Him.

"If the first covenant had been faultless [had it been perfect], then there would be no reason sought to have a second covenant" (Hebrews 8:7).

If the first covenant could bring man into a righteous state before God, then you wouldn't need another covenant. But it could not, and that's why you needed a New Testament.

So, Beter, yes, in Hebrews 8, 9, and 10 -- God is speaking of the Old and the New Covenants. But, in no way is He speaking of replacing His chosen people, Israel, with the church. We, the church, the Bride of Christ -- stand beside our brethren, the Israelites, His chosen people, the Bride of God. Different, yet brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill Gray opines:

{QUOTE}Yet, realizing this would not happen as He desired -- His Plan B, which in His omniscience was truly His Plan A all time -- is the Tribulation, the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

_____________

So, Beter, yes, in Hebrews 8, 9, and 10 -- God is speaking of the Old and the New Covenants. But, in no way is He speaking of replacing His chosen people, Israel, with the church. We, the church, the Bride of Christ -- stand beside our brethren, the Israelites, His chosen people, the Bride of God. Different, yet brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.[QUOTE]

First, Bill, It is a stretch to equate "the time of Jacob's trouble" with what you describe as "the Tribulation." (using the capital "T" without any justification other than the priority placed upon that alleged event by those who believe as you do). It is more likely that this prophecy refers to the Abomination of Desolation," namely the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, in which, according to hisorians, including Josephus (Wars of the Jews)
as many as 1.5 million Jews were slain. Many Bible scholars hold this view.

As to the business of a "chosen people," and some alleged different route to salvation for Jews who have rejected Jesus,I will stick with Romans 10: 11-13:

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And Acts 10:34 & 35:

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

quote:

Originally posted by beternU:
As to the business of a "chosen people," and some alleged different route to salvation for Jews who have rejected Jesus,I will stick with Romans 10: 11-13:

Hi Beter,

For the Old Testament saints, for the Jews, for us, for everyone in the world -- from the Creation to the coming Rapture -- there is only one WAY to salvation -- Jesus Christ.

There is NO other WAY! Yet, the Jews are His chosen people, from the His Covenant with Abraham -- and that will not change just because they become Messianic Jews.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

So, not actually having addressed my objections to your thesis, you now arrive in that familiar place in Billville, a broad, generalized statement that does no more that re-state your opinion.

Bill, my Bible says that, "it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment." Here, "men" inarguably includes all persons, Jew or Gentile . And it does not say that the righteous are judged at the "rapture" and the unrighteous are judged at some other judgment event. A Gentile dies--he/she faces the same judgment that a Jew does. Neither Jew nor Gentile who reject Jesus in this life will get some kind of second chance after death. "ONCE TO DIE and after this THE JUDGMENT." It would be hard for that to be any plainer and it is difficult indeed, nay impossible, to find in Scripture any kind of defensible alternative to this blunt, clear kind of statement. Here it is in context, Bill, and note that it is in the Book of Hebrews--a book written by an inspired apostle as exhortation and instruction to Jews --and is part of a discussion of the passing of the Law of Moses.

Hebrews 9:

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is instruction to Jews, and it is telling them essentially the same thing that Jesus was telling all men--and that you have included in your last post--that salvation is in Christ: "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the father but by me." In the second chapter of Hebrews, Paul asks, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him?" Hebrews 2:3) The question is rhetorical. The answer is that those who "neglect so great salvation," i.e. those who reject the salvation offered through Christ in the new covenant, will not escape. They will be lost, whether they are Jew or Gentile. And again, Bill, the opportunity for that salvation is in THIS LIFE: "once to die, but after this the judgment."

First life; then death; then judgment--the same arrangement for all. God, indeed is "no respecter of persons."

quote:

Originally posted by beternU:
So, not actually having addressed my objections to your thesis, you now arrive in that familiar place in Billville, a broad, generalized statement that does no more that re-state your opinion.

Bill, my Bible says that, "it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment." Here, "men" inarguably includes all persons, Jew or Gentile . And it does not say that the righteous are judged at the "rapture" and the unrighteous are judged at some other judgment event. A Gentile dies--he/she faces the same judgment that a Jew does. Neither Jew nor Gentile who reject Jesus in this life will get some kind of second chance after death. "ONCE TO DIE and after this THE JUDGMENT."

It would be hard for that to be any plainer and it is difficult indeed, nay impossible, to find in Scripture any kind of defensible alternative to this blunt, clear kind of statement. Here it is in context, Bill, and note that it is in the Book of Hebrews--a book written by an inspired apostle as exhortation and instruction to Jews --and is part of a discussion of the passing of the Law of Moses. First life; then death; then judgment--the same arrangement for all. God, indeed is "no respecter of persons."

Hi Beter,

I am not sure what "thesis" you feel I have offered; however, I agree with you that no one is judged at the Rapture. And, you quote Hebrews correctly that man is to die once, and then the judgment. And, you are also correct that NO ONE gets a second chance. I have stated that so many times that I have lost count.

Never have I said anything different. However, I believe the confusion comes from the timing. As I have often stated, those who have died in Christ will be raised first, then virtually simultaneously -- but, slightly later -- like the blink of an eye -- those believers who are alive will be Raptured. All believers, those who have died in Christ and those who are alive in Christ -- will be Raptured to meet Jesus Christ in the clouds/air.

We will receive our immortal bodies such as He has -- and we will all be taken into heaven where we will stay during the seven year Tribulation. During this seven years, two key events occur. First, the Bema Seat Judgment of rewards, or lack of rewards, for all believers. Second, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb -- when He will take His Bride, the church (all believers from the Day of Pentecost until the Rapture). Honored Wedding Guest will be the Old Testament saints.

At the end of the seven year Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return to earth, His Second Coming, where he will judge the nations, the survivors of the Tribulation: non-believers will go to the Lake of Fire, hell -- and believers will go into His Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies. At His Second Coming, He will be accompanied by His Bride, the church, and the Old Testament saints. We will reign with Him in His Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years.

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom -- those who died not believing in Jesus Christ will be resurrected and will face Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment -- a judgment of punishment for rejecting Him all their lives. They will then join the Antichrist and all other non-believers in the Lake of Fire, hell.

Then, God will create the New Heaven, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem will descend to above the New Earth -- and all believers will be taken into eternity -- here on the New Earth -- there to live in joy and peace forevermore in the presence of God.

That, my Friend, is the correct timing according to God's Written Word, the Bible.

So, I do not think we are too far apart; just differ somewhat a wee bit on the timing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:
Bill says, "So, according to Jesus Christ -- I have eternal life -- and there is NOW no condemnation for me. Praise the Lord!"

the holy Bible lists a few sins that are unforgivable such as denying the Holy Spirit. Corinthians seems to be very clear on the subject that adultery is one of those, too

so how is it that one person can deny the holy Spirit and be unforgiving yet you get off Scott free? According to you, there is no unforgivable sin?

Bill? Are you ignoring this one?

quote:

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom -- those who died not believing in Jesus Christ will be resurrected and will face Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment -- a judgment of punishment for rejecting Him all their lives. They will then join the Antichrist and all other non-believers in the Lake of Fire, hell.

Bill, the judgment you call the Great White Throne Judgment" is the same as the judgment described in Matthew 25. There, "all nations" shall be judged (v.32). The righteous and the unrighteous shall be judged (v. 46). Jesus, in describing the judgment in Matthew 25, neither says, nor implies, anything remotely to suggest that this is anything other than THE judgment, the ONLY judgment. According to your teology, the judgment of Matthew 25 could only be a "post-Ttibulation" judgment and the only persons being condemned in that judment would be those who did not did not "survive" the "Tribulation."

Bill, your interpretation of the "Rapture" is based on 1 Thess. 4. That passage teaches that both the righteous living and the "dead in Christ" will be "caught up together...in the clouds" and will "ever be with the Lord." Who does that leave behind for the "Tribulation"? The only answer to that is that only the unrighteous will be left. That being the case, one has to wonder just who John was writing about in Revelation 7:14:

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

If only the unrighteous dead and the unrighteous living were left behind at the "Rapture" (as you believe), and and if, as you say, "At the end of the seven year Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return to earth, His Second Coming, where he will judge the nations, the survivors of the Tribulation: non-believers will go to the Lake of Fire, hell -- and believers will go into His Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies," then how did those allegedly unrighteous un-Raptured survivors of the "Tribulation" somehow become righteous during the Tribulation? Would they not, by your reckoning, have received a second chance? They were "left behind" because they were unrighteous, and presumably in a lost state. Then, after the Tribulation, you assert that some of them were saved. But you also say:

"And, you are also correct that NO ONE gets a second chance. I have stated that so many times that I have lost count."

Count this:

One chance to be saved before the "Rapture"

Another chance to be saved after the "Tribulation"

I count two chances.

Hi Beter,

In my earlier post, I wrote, "At the end of the Millennial Kingdom -- those who died not believing in Jesus Christ will be resurrected and will face Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment -- a judgment of punishment for rejecting Him all their lives. They will then join the Antichrist and all other non-believers in the Lake of Fire, hell."

And, you tell me, "Bill, the judgment you call the 'Great White Throne Judgment' is the same as the judgment described in Matthew 25. There, 'all nations' shall be judged (v.32). The righteous and the unrighteous shall be judged (v. 46). Jesus, in describing the judgment in Matthew 25, neither says, nor implies, anything remotely to suggest that this is anything other than THE judgment, the ONLY judgment. According to your theology, the judgment of Matthew 25 could only be a 'post-Tribulation' judgment and the only persons being condemned in that judgment would be those who did not did not 'survive' the 'Tribulation.'"

Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable describing the Sheep and Goat Judgment. When Jesus Christ returns, His Second Coming after the Tribulation, there will be those who survived the Tribulation. Although most who become believers during the Tribulation will have been martyred by the Antichrist; there will be a large number still alive at the end of the Tribulation. And there will be many non-believers, those who took the Mark of the Beast upon their bodies.

His main purpose in the Second Coming is to put an end to the Tribulation, the time of refining for His chosen people, Israel -- and to establish His Millennial Kingdom, the Kingdom of God on earth. When Adam disobeyed God; he gave a "Quit Claim Deed" for earth to Satan. Jesus will come to redeem the Title Deed to earth -- and to send Satan into the abyss, his jail, for one thousand years.

At the judgment described in the parable of Matthew 25:31-46, there will be two things asked: First, what did you do with My Son, Jesus Christ? Did you receive Him as your Lord and Savior -- or did you reject Him? Second, what did you do with your fellow man: Did you display the fruit found only in the salvation of a Christ Follower and tend His sheep, the people for whom He gave His life -- or did you care only for your own worldly pleasures and desires?

The first, those who received Him as Lord and Savior, His sheep, He will stand on His right. Those who denied Him, the goats, He will stand on His left. And, Matthew 25:46 tells us, "And these (the goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (His sheep) into eternal life."

But, first, those on His right, His sheep, will go into the Millennial Kingdom of God, Christ's Millennial Reign on earth, in their mortal bodies. For one thousand years, they will be marrying and having children. Yet, they and their children will still have the sin nature inherited from Adam's disobedience. The sin nature can and will only be removed through death or the Rapture. All mortals going into the Millennial Kingdom will be saved, yet they will still have their sin nature -- just at those of us who are saved today still have our sin nature.

Those who enter the Millennial Kingdom after the Tribulation are saved, they are Christian believers and have eternal life in Christ. However, those born in the Millennial Kingdom, still having their sin nature, will still need to invite Jesus Christ into their hearts (Revelation 3:20) to have eternal life.

During the Millennial Kingdom, Satan is locked in the abyss -- so his temptation which has led so many down the wrong path during the Church Era (from the Day of Pentecost to the Rapture) and even through the seven year Tribulation -- will be missing. However, even though the temptation of Satan is absent; those born during the Millennial Reign of Christ must still, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation.

Surprisingly, there will be a great number who will not, for whatever reason, do this. These are the recruits Satan will find when he is released from the abyss after one thousand years -- and from this group he will recruit his army of billions who will come against the Holy City and Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:7-10) where they will be supernaturally destroyed. This is the last battle of the End Times.

The Great White Throne Judgment is still pending at this point. It will happen after the Final Battle and after Satan has been thrown into the Lake of Fire where the Antichrist and his False Prophet await their leader. The Great White Throne Judgment is God's final act in dealing with all non-believers.

From that point on -- it is the New Heaven, the New Earth, the New Jerusalem -- and eternal life with Jesus Christ, in the eternal presence of God the Father.

Then, you tell me, "Bill, your interpretation of the 'Rapture' is based on 1 Thess. 4. That passage teaches that both the righteous living and the 'dead in Christ' will be "caught up together...in the clouds" and will "ever be with the Lord."

That is almost true. We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

This tells us that those who died in Christ, i.e., those Christian believers who have preceded us in death -- their bodies are still in the grave, but, upon death, their spirits went directly to be with the Lord -- will be raised first in the Rapture. Then, those of us who are still alive will follow them in being Raptured. However, we are talking about a very brief time between the two events; say, like the time it takes for a blink of the eye. So, technically, those dead in Christ rise first -- but, in reality, it will all happen so quickly that who can notice the time difference?

Next, you ask a good question -- and, you have answered your own question, "Who does that leave behind for the 'Tribulation'? The only answer to that is that only the unrighteous will be left. That being the case, one has to wonder just who John was writing about in Revelation 7:14: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

As we are told in Jeremiah 30:7, the seven year Tribulation is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble or Distress." It is God's time to bring His chosen people, Israel, through the Refiner's Fire -- to separate out the remnant of His people who will believe and receive their Messiah, Jesus Christ. While the Tribulation is primarily for the sake of Israel; many Gentiles in the nations will also believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation.

Who is left after the Rapture? You answered correctly; only the unrighteous, only those who have not received and believed in Jesus Christ. However, there will be two great Revivals happening during the seven year Tribulation. First, there will be those who had knowledge of Jesus Christ, many who actually taught about Jesus Christ -- pastors, priest, Bible teachers, Sunday School teachers, deacons, deaconesses, elders, and many other supposedly mature Christians.

And, still, they never truly believed what they themselves were teaching. Yet, from what they have been teaching, they have knowledge of the Rapture, whether they believed it or not -- and when the Rapture does occur -- they will become instant believers. They will recognize the fallacy of the theology they have been following and teaching -- and, they will repent and become true Christ Followers. This will be the First Great Tribulation Revival.

The second will come from the 144,000 new Jewish Billy Grahams we find in Revelation 7:4, "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel."

These 144,000 zealous evangelists, 12,000 from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel -- will bring in a harvest of souls during the Tribulation unlike any that has ever occurred before this. We are told of this in Revelation 7:9, "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands."

This "great multitude" is comprised of those who were saved in the initial First Great Tribulation Revival and those who heard and responded to the teaching of the 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams. And, can you imagine -- a great multitude, the number so large, that one could not count them? That, my Friend, is one great Soul Harvest.

But, the reason they are standing before the throne of the Lamb, clothed in white robes -- is because, as fast as the 144,000 evangelist could bring them to belief in Jesus Christ -- the Antichrist was killing them, making them Christian martyrs.

These are the same martyrs we find in Revelation 6:9-11, "When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also."

Keep in mind that the book of Revelation does not read chronologically from time A to time Z. This is one of the reasons many folks get confused in studying Revelation. Yet, here, there is some continuity. First, in Revelation 6:9-11 we read of those slain, martyred, for their faith -- and then, in Revelation 7:9-17 we read of them standing before the Lord washed in the blood of the Lamb and clothed in His white robe of righteousness.

These were Left Behind -- but, now are saved and have eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Then, you tell me, "If only the unrighteous dead and the unrighteous living were left behind at the 'Rapture' (as you believe), and and if, as you say, 'At the end of the seven year Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return to earth, His Second Coming, where he will judge the nations, the survivors of the Tribulation: non-believers will go to the Lake of Fire, hell -- and believers will go into His Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies' -- then how did those allegedly unrighteous un-Raptured survivors of the 'Tribulation' somehow become righteous during the Tribulation?

Would they not, by your reckoning, have received a second chance? They were 'left behind' because they were unrighteous, and presumably in a lost state. Then, after the Tribulation, you assert that some of them were saved. But you also say: "And, you are also correct that NO ONE gets a second chance. I have stated that so many times that I have lost count."

Count this: One chance to be saved before the 'Rapture.' Another chance to be saved after the 'Tribulation.' I count two chances."

Once again, a good question which will help us clear up any misunderstandings. When we speak of "not having a second chance" to repent and receive His "free gift" of salvation -- this is referring only to this mortal life. In this life, one has until his last breath to repent and be saved. If, however, that person dies, breathes his last breath in this mortal life, without believing and receiving Jesus Christ as Lord, Master, and Savior -- there is no second chance. This person's eternal fate is sealed.

However, those who are Left Behind at the Rapture have not died, they have not breathed their last breath -- so, just as folks do now, they still have the rest of their mortal life to repent and be saved.

Yet, leaving repentance and salvation until the last moment, until just before that last breath -- is rather like trying to walk up an ice covered hillside wearing leather soled shoes. It is a mighty precarious position in which you could find yourself -- a mighty slippery slope. One never knows when that last breath will come.

That is true for us now. Can you imagine how much worse it will be during the seven year Tribulation -- when folks are being killed left and right -- for no other reason than it pleases the Antichrist? That will be a very precarious time in which to live -- and a very unwise time to put off your repentance and salvation until the last moment.

Beter, my Friend, I pray this clears up any misunderstandings we have about the End Times -- and that it encourages many of our Forum Friends to test what we write by comparing it with Scripture (Acts 17:11). And, I pray that our dialogues will be the catalyst which will bring many more to their own personal study of God's Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

So, Bill, after affirming this:

quote:

And, you quote Hebrews correctly that man is to die once, and then the judgment. And, you are also correct that NO ONE gets a second chance. I have stated that so many times that I have lost count.[QUOTE]

YOu now assert this:

[quote]However, those who are Left Behind at the Rapture have not died, they have not breathed their last breath -- so, just as folks do now, they still have the rest of their mortal life to repent and be saved.

There is no way to rationally interpret what you have described, in the second quote above, as anything other than a SECOND CHANCE. You agree that these folks who were left behind at the rapture were among the lost. You go on to say that they had opportunity to accept Christ while they were living and declined to do so. That was their first chance. Then you give them another chance in the so-called Tribulation. That is their second chance. Two chances--count em!

You do not even address the fate of those evil dead left behind after the alleged Rapture, who have indeed "breathed their last breath." I am sure you have some notion of what will happen to these, but I am disappointed that you have ignored them, since there will obviously be a fair number of them awaiting guidance from Dr. Scofield on how they will fare in the end times.

Astonishingly, those you say will have that second chance in the Tribulation are persons who, by your own description, were the rankest kind of hypocrites--those who had knowledge of Jesus Christ, many who actually taught about Jesus Christ -- 'pastors, priest, Bible teachers, Sunday School teachers, deacons, deaconesses, elders, and many other supposedly mature Christians. And, still, they never truly believed what they themselves were teaching."
The belated conversion of these phonies you describe will supposedly occur in what you call "the first Great Tribulation Revival." Neither that term (which you attempt to legitimize by capitalizing it) nor the concept embodied in it are anywhere recognized in Scripture. I don't find any "Bema seat" anywhere in my Bible either, notwithstanding its popularity among Triburapturists.

That, Bill, is totally incompatible with what Paul wrote in Romans 2:3, which I quoted earlier in this string and which I reproduce below, since you seem not to have taken notice of it:

"Paul asks, 'How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him?' (Hebrews 2:3) The question is rhetorical. The answer is that those who "neglect so great salvation," i.e. those who reject the salvation offered through Christ in the new covenant, will not escape. They will be lost, whether they are Jew or Gentile. And again, Bill, the opportunity for that salvation is in THIS LIFE: "once to die, but after this the judgment" (NOT "after this, the Rapture" and not "after this the Tribulation").

The answer to Paul's rhetorical question is that those who "neglect so great a salvation" will be lost, period.

If you know anything about rhetoric, you must know that the answer to any rhetorical question is the answer intimated by the question itself. And the answer to Paul's rhetorical question can not, logically, be any answer except that those of whom he writes will not escape and thus will be lost. Interestingly, his question ("How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?") fits very neatly the description you provide of those hypocritical non-believers masquerading as true believers. They knew of God's plan for their salvation and thus were poised to either accept or neglect it, and chose the latter course. "Neglect" implies knowledge of that which is said to be neglected. As a consequence of their neglect, they do not "escape." They are lost! So, Bill, you give those folks a chance that Paul was not willing to give them.

As to the rest of your rambling and preternaturally smug description of the end time events and sequences, all can say is "Holy Cow!" I had as soon adopt the myths of Scientology or affirm the truth of the Book of Mormon as to grant any credence to that Darbyite-Scofieldite imbroglio you have posted. "144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams,"indeed! Nowhere in the Book of Revelation or elsewhere in Scripture is any evangelistic role assigned to these 144,000 persons. Where DO you come up with all this rank mythology???!!

Hi Beter,

It is hard for me to understand how you can be confused on this issue of salvation. However, I will attempt to explain it in language that even a Cave Man (no offense to our television cave man characters) can understand.

Jesus Christ came to earth to die on the cross to provide a means of salvation for all mankind. Man, in our sinful state, could never pay the sin debt owed to God; so, the only sinless, perfect Man had to shed His blood to pay our sin debt.

That debt has been "paid in full" -- and, now, everyone can receive His "free gift" of salvation. The means: by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, repent, believe, and receive His "free gift."

Up until a person has breathed his last breath -- he can still repent and turn to follow Jesus Christ. However, waiting until the last minute is very dangerous -- for no one knows when his/her last breath will occur. You may be happy, full of life one second -- and dead the next. If a person has not become a Christian believer BEFORE that last breath -- he/she has condemned himself/herself to eternal life in hell. From this there is no second chance, there is no do-over. When a person leaves this life without Christ -- he/she will spend eternity without Christ.

Now, when the Rapture occurs; all Christian believers will be taken out of this world and taken to heaven -- where we will reside for seven years -- the Tribulation.

The only people left behind will be those who are not Christian believers.

However, since the Tribulation is primarily for the Jewish people, God's chosen people -- He will set aside and seal 144,000 Jewish evangelist -- 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams. There will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes. These evangelists will bring a great harvest of saved souls, a great multitude, from both the Jewish and Gentile nations.

Also, when the Rapture occurs, many pastors, teachers, evangelists, and other supposedly mature Christians will be left behind. Why? Because they have been teaching salvation -- but, they themselves did not really believe what they were teaching. When the Rapture occurs -- there will be an instant revival movement among these people -- for they are fully aware of the teaching of the Rapture and what it means.

So, yes, as we are told in Revelation -- there will be a great multitude, a number too large to count -- who will become Christian believers during the Tribulation.

You are calling this a Second Chance; God sees it as those who were resisting -- finally coming to believe and receive their Lord and Savior, their Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Salvation is based upon what one does in this mortal life -- regardless of whether it is before the Rapture -- or after the Rapture. As long as a person has breath in this mortal body -- he/she can repent and receive Jesus Christ.

However, once this person has breathed his/her last breathe in this mortal body -- this person's eternal destiny is set. And from this, there is NO SECOND CHANCE.

I pray that I have explained this so that you now understand what is taught in the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Let me get a clarification from you, Bill, before venturing to answer your latest post.

Consider the day before the alleged Rapture.

On that day Willie dies. Willie never was saved, so he has died in his sins.

The next day, with the lost and doomed Willie freshly dead in his grave, the Rapture happens!

Millie is alive and well at the Rapture, but she is living in an un-churched, depraved and unsaved condition.

Millie, along with certain others who were alive at the Rapture, has the benefit of some soul-stirring gospel preaching by one or more of the 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams brought into service to evangelize lost souls during the alleged Tribulation. Millie accepts Jesus Christ as her Savior. Millie remains faithful throughout the Tribulation and thus will ultimately go home to heaven and be saved eternally. The saved Millie presumably is blessed by the doctrine of perseverance of the saints and thus could not be lost, no matter what the horrors the Tribulation might bring, but I don't know whether you Triburapturists consider the doctrine of perseverance to apply during the Tribulation, so I'll leave that for you to explain.

While Millie is being evangelized and saved during the Tribulation, Willie is mouldering in his grave. No Jewish Billy Grahams can reach the dead and condemned Willie and thus he has no opportunity to accept the salvation that is made available to Millie and others who happened to remain alive on Planet Earth for a few hours more than Willie did. Throughout the Tribulation, Willie remains dead, both biologically and spiritually, awaiting his ultimate and inescapable sentence to eternal doom at the Great White Throne Judgment. Then off to the Lake of Fire with Willie, to join the Antichrist and his associates.

However, in the Tribulation According to Bill, there is a class of lost persons that seem not to fit the situations occupied by either Millie or Willie, those described as "...many pastors, teachers, evangelists, and other supposedly mature Christians [who] will be left behind. Why? Because they have been teaching salvation -- but, they themselves did not really believe what they were teaching. When the Rapture occurs -- there will be an instant revival movement among these people -- for they are fully aware of the teaching of the Rapture and what it means."

This seems to imply that this bunch of hypocrites, deceivers, and phonies, who have been so assiduously preaching and teaching a gospel and a salvation and an eschatology in which they never believed (for whatever reason they might have chosen to do that) will suddenly come to the realization that they were right after all, even without the benefit of preaching from these 144,000 Jewish evangelists, and that they will somehow be instantaneously revived and saved. Would this group include the infamous money-grubbing, prosperity-gospelling scam artists who infest cable television? Will Jan and Paul and Benny Hinn and Mike Murdock and Peter P. Popoff look around in the world of the Rapture/Tribulation, and--their jaws dropping to the floor--exclaim to each other, "Well, how about that? We were telling the truth after all!" Who'd a thunk it?"

Please advise, Bill, if I have described above a scenario that correctly reflects your interpretation of these "end time" events. I need your help in this matter before I can feel confident to respond fully to your last post.

Hi Beter,

To make it easier for you to respond -- and so that all of our Religion Forum Friends can share in our discussion, I have begun a new discussion titled, "Willie, Millie, And The Rapture!"

See you there!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bil