If you could travel back in time to the Crucifixion, would you rescue Jesus from the cross?
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No, he didn't need me or anyone else to rescue him. I'm just a human. He is the Son of God. He rescued me. 
I'd invite him to a party. He always seems to have food and wine when it is needed.
Good point, Crusty. 
Scripture says he is not attractive; yet people were drawn to him. I know he is a great storyteller, but I bet he has a great laugh, too. I wonder if the Bible says anything about him laughing? I'll have to look that up.
Scripture says he is not attractive; yet people were drawn to him. I know he is a great storyteller, but I bet he has a great laugh, too. I wonder if the Bible says anything about him laughing? I'll have to look that up.
quote:No, he didn't need me or anyone else to rescue him
Wouldn't that kinda be mean to have the power to rescue someone from torture but choose to leave them up there instead?
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
Good point, Crusty.
Scripture says he is not attractive; yet people were drawn to him. I know he is a great storyteller, but I bet he has a great laugh, too. I wonder if the Bible says anything about him laughing? I'll have to look that up.
The inane story of a married virgin getting pregnant by an invisible being which produced a phenom who died for my transgressions is worth a few chuckles.
Christ would be a great hit at a party--a party of gullible youngsters. He certaily was an accomplished magician. I wonder why he never used his skills in legerdemain to cure a disease, prevent a natural disaster, stop a war, feed the starving, irrigate a desert, invent something useful to mankind.
You know something? I think this guy was nothing but a big bag of wind. You're right about one thing. He wasn't very attractive. He sure was scrufty looking. As for people being drawn to him, have you ever been to a freak show? As P.T. Barnum said, . . .
Bite me, david. Just kidding. Scrufty? Aw, you're making that up, aren't you? 
Skeptic, you're missing the point, intentionally I'm sure.
He is Immanuel, God with us. He doesn't need me to rescue him because he could step down any time he wants, call legions of angels to his side at any time.
Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now? Matt 26:53
Skeptic, you're missing the point, intentionally I'm sure.
He is Immanuel, God with us. He doesn't need me to rescue him because he could step down any time he wants, call legions of angels to his side at any time.Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now? Matt 26:53
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
Bite me, david. Just kidding. Scrufty? Aw, you're making that up, aren't you?
Skeptic, you're missing the point, intentionally I'm sure.
Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now? Matt 26:53
You say he could have, but he didn't. Why. Because he was an inept braggadocio who had no mystical powers. He did not perrform one act to benefit mankind. He was nothing but hot air. Did he leave the world a better place than he found it? Oh, of course, he was really a hot shot but mankind didn't listen to him. Maybe because he was a second-rate teacher and had nothing worthwhile to say.
quote:Maybe because he was a second-rate teacher and had nothing worthwhile to say.
David,
At rish of derailing my own thread, I find myself in an interesting position of defending Jesus. Look, if Jesus existed (and that is a big "if") he DID have some cool things to say (or at least popularized some long-held moral [and immoral] philosophies). His character as portrayed in the bible was an instrumental character for most western societies.
I can't quite put my finger one why I disapprove of how you state your case. I guess I have a bit of a problem with your attempts to demonize Jesus when there, in actuality, is as much evidence for demonizing as there is for his god status. You seem to be attacking a ghost which is unbecoming of a good atheist.
Skeptic,
Maybe I was a little hard on the old boy, I guess it was just an over reaction to the continual claims that he was really something special who we should all accept as our lord and savior.
As for his words of wisdom. They were few and far between. His parroting the Golden Rule was admirable. However, most of what he said was merely self-aggrandizement and/or was nonsense.
We are constantly told that he preached love and forgiveness. However, on careful examination of the Gospels, it becomes evidenct that this applied only to those who worshipped Him and his God. He condemned all others to a lake of fire for all of eternity. It takes a demonic mind to conceive such horror for nothing more serious than failing to stroke his ego.
He spewed forth a plethora of braggadocio statements that are a disservice for anyone taking them seriously.
"I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." (Believers will say that that this is a reference to their spiritual and not material well-being. However, there are many ardent believers who suffer mental anguish.)
"I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (And what is in store for those not following him. Many of the world's most enlightened people don't follow him.)
"And there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (Tell that to the Catholics and Protestents who beat the tar out of each other in Ireland.)
"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (It has proven to be a bsd idea to forsake personal responsibility and personal effort in favor of begging for special favors.)
The mythical Christ preached some dangerous ideas. I am not really attacking this shade. I am attacking the words put into his mouth by the Gospel's authors.
I maintain that the world would be a far, far better place if the Christ myth had never been created. I will ask again, "Did Christ leave the world a better place than he found it?" Or put another way, has the Christ myth brought peace on earth good will toward men?
Maybe I was a little hard on the old boy, I guess it was just an over reaction to the continual claims that he was really something special who we should all accept as our lord and savior.
As for his words of wisdom. They were few and far between. His parroting the Golden Rule was admirable. However, most of what he said was merely self-aggrandizement and/or was nonsense.
We are constantly told that he preached love and forgiveness. However, on careful examination of the Gospels, it becomes evidenct that this applied only to those who worshipped Him and his God. He condemned all others to a lake of fire for all of eternity. It takes a demonic mind to conceive such horror for nothing more serious than failing to stroke his ego.
He spewed forth a plethora of braggadocio statements that are a disservice for anyone taking them seriously.
"I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." (Believers will say that that this is a reference to their spiritual and not material well-being. However, there are many ardent believers who suffer mental anguish.)
"I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (And what is in store for those not following him. Many of the world's most enlightened people don't follow him.)
"And there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (Tell that to the Catholics and Protestents who beat the tar out of each other in Ireland.)
"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (It has proven to be a bsd idea to forsake personal responsibility and personal effort in favor of begging for special favors.)
The mythical Christ preached some dangerous ideas. I am not really attacking this shade. I am attacking the words put into his mouth by the Gospel's authors.
I maintain that the world would be a far, far better place if the Christ myth had never been created. I will ask again, "Did Christ leave the world a better place than he found it?" Or put another way, has the Christ myth brought peace on earth good will toward men?
OK, let me take a logical approach and not a religious approach. Why in the heck do you think I would want to go back to a time when crucifixion was popular, plague was prevalent, and morons were in control? Wait a second . . . that sounds like today.
quote:Originally posted by davidnmiles:quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
Bite me, david. Just kidding. Scrufty? Aw, you're making that up, aren't you?
Skeptic, you're missing the point, intentionally I'm sure.
Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now? Matt 26:53
You say he could have, but he didn't. Why. Because he was an inept braggadocio who had no mystical powers. He did not perrform one act to benefit mankind. He was nothing but hot air. Did he leave the world a better place than he found it? Oh, of course, he was really a hot shot but mankind didn't listen to him. Maybe because he was a second-rate teacher and had nothing worthwhile to say.
I'll be blunt, since I can see no way around it. I answered that load of nonsense the last time you asked, right before you disappeared.
Thanks, Skeptic.
quote:If you could travel back in time to the Crucifixion, would you rescue Jesus from the cross?
No, that would defeat the purpose of why He came in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:quote:Originally posted by davidnmiles:quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
Bite me, david. Just kidding. Scrufty? Aw, you're making that up, aren't you?
Skeptic, you're missing the point, intentionally I'm sure.
Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now? Matt 26:53
You say he could have, but he didn't. Why. Because he was an inept braggadocio who had no mystical powers. He did not perrform one act to benefit mankind. He was nothing but hot air. Did he leave the world a better place than he found it? Oh, of course, he was really a hot shot but mankind didn't listen to him. Maybe because he was a second-rate teacher and had nothing worthwhile to say.
I'll be blunt, since I can see no way around it. I answered that load of nonsense the last time you asked, right before you disappeared.
Thanks, Skeptic.
Very nicely sidestepped.
Hmm, I'm not seeing it, Dave. You couldn't find it or you just don't want to look?
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
Hmm, I'm not seeing it, Dave. You couldn't find it or you just don't want to look?
This can be quickly resolved by answering: "Did Christ leave the world a better place than he found it." If yes, how and when did this betterment begin.
Click "link" to see where I answered you the last time you asked... Link
Here's the deal, david. I wish that it were not so, but you appear to be very angry and your arguments are exaggerated and extreme. I'm fine with someone coming to a different conclusion than me when they have logical reasons for it. I can even understand how they arrived at their conclusion. It's impossible to do that with extremists.
Here's the deal, david. I wish that it were not so, but you appear to be very angry and your arguments are exaggerated and extreme. I'm fine with someone coming to a different conclusion than me when they have logical reasons for it. I can even understand how they arrived at their conclusion. It's impossible to do that with extremists.
quote:Originally posted by davidnmiles:
You say he could have, but he didn't. Why. Because he was an inept braggadocio who had no mystical powers.
Or He was fulfilling a purpose. Not believing is no problem, but you seem to have a aversion that transcends unbelief. Why the need to disparage and discount every single little thing that Christ said or did?
Even if you believe that He was just a regular man, His words still should be worthy of respect. Love your neighbor as yourself. That is a powerful statement and if more people took it to heart, the world would be a much better place for all.
quote:He did not perrform one act to benefit mankind. He was nothing but hot air. Did he leave the world a better place than he found it? Oh, of course, he was really a hot shot but mankind didn't listen to him. Maybe because he was a second-rate teacher and had nothing worthwhile to say.
This is simply not supportable. Non-christians such Mahatma Ghandi, who definitely had a major impact, had respect for Christ as a teacher. The Qu'ran, the muslim holy book, is very respectful of Christ's teaching.
,
Joy stated:
In answer to your question, His coming brought hope to the hopeless, healing for souls, truth and justice.
When after the arival of Christ did the hopeless begin to have hope, were souls healed and there was truth and justice.
Was it under Roman oppression?
Was it when Christianity became the mandated religion of the Roman Empire and all non-Christians were tortured, murdered or converted?
Was it during the Dark Ages when persecutions of all non-Christians continued and the average person lived a life of misery in serfdom?
Was it during the crusades?
Was it during the Inquisition?
Until the Age of Enlightenment most humans lived a life of suffering and misery, usually at the hands of the church. Hope, healing, truth and justice were non-existent and would have been of little benefit as you were graveling in the dirt before clergy and lords, suffering from a plague, starving to death, forced to fight for a feudal baron or go on a crusade for someone elses gain, being led to the stake or hung as a witch. Justice was unknown until secular governments appeared around the time of the American Revolution. Truth didn't exist until science was allowd to exist after the Copernican revolution.
After 2,000 year of Christ's "influence" look around the world at this very moment and tell me about hope, healing, truth and justice. Yes, the human condition has improved dramatically since the Age of Enlightenment and continues to improve--thanks to secularism that has pried loose Christianity's grip on the human soul and mind.
To say, "His coming brought hope to the hopeless, healing for souls, truth and justice," is just not true--unless false hope = hope.
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
Click "link" to see where I answered you the last time you asked... Link
Here's the deal, david. I wish that it were not so, but you appear to be very angry and your arguments are exaggerated and extreme. I'm fine with someone coming to a different conclusion than me when they have logical reasons for it. I can even understand how they arrived at their conclusion. It's impossible to do that with extremists.
Joy stated:
In answer to your question, His coming brought hope to the hopeless, healing for souls, truth and justice.
When after the arival of Christ did the hopeless begin to have hope, were souls healed and there was truth and justice.
Was it under Roman oppression?
Was it when Christianity became the mandated religion of the Roman Empire and all non-Christians were tortured, murdered or converted?
Was it during the Dark Ages when persecutions of all non-Christians continued and the average person lived a life of misery in serfdom?
Was it during the crusades?
Was it during the Inquisition?
Until the Age of Enlightenment most humans lived a life of suffering and misery, usually at the hands of the church. Hope, healing, truth and justice were non-existent and would have been of little benefit as you were graveling in the dirt before clergy and lords, suffering from a plague, starving to death, forced to fight for a feudal baron or go on a crusade for someone elses gain, being led to the stake or hung as a witch. Justice was unknown until secular governments appeared around the time of the American Revolution. Truth didn't exist until science was allowd to exist after the Copernican revolution.
After 2,000 year of Christ's "influence" look around the world at this very moment and tell me about hope, healing, truth and justice. Yes, the human condition has improved dramatically since the Age of Enlightenment and continues to improve--thanks to secularism that has pried loose Christianity's grip on the human soul and mind.
To say, "His coming brought hope to the hopeless, healing for souls, truth and justice," is just not true--unless false hope = hope.
It was one day in Honduras when a girl with no hope of a future found out she had one after all. That's one. I could go on for all eternity.
[QUOTE]Even if you believe that He was just a regular man, His words still should be worthy of respect. Love your neighbor as yourself. That is a powerful statement and if more people took it to heart, the world would be a much better place for all.QUOTE]
This is one of the myths perpetuated by devout Christians who refuse to assess the words of Jesus. This statement is based on Matthew 22: 39 where Jesus proclaims, "Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself." However, Christ made it clear that "neighbour" applied only to those who "loved the Lord thy God [Christ's God] with all thy heart and soul." Christ never advocated love or tolerance for those who did not revere his God and Himself. In an expression of contempt and intolerance Christ proclaimed, "He that believeth not shall be ****ed." Mark 16: 16.
Christ showed his intolerance when he refused to heal the daughter of a woman from Canaan. He proclaimed, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel,” Matthew 15:24. Finally, after the woman pleaded with Christ, he agreed to heal the little girl.
The religious absolutism espoused by Christ has influenced the bloodshed and violence from the time of the Christian Roman emperors of the fourth century until this very moment.
This is one of the myths perpetuated by devout Christians who refuse to assess the words of Jesus. This statement is based on Matthew 22: 39 where Jesus proclaims, "Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself." However, Christ made it clear that "neighbour" applied only to those who "loved the Lord thy God [Christ's God] with all thy heart and soul." Christ never advocated love or tolerance for those who did not revere his God and Himself. In an expression of contempt and intolerance Christ proclaimed, "He that believeth not shall be ****ed." Mark 16: 16.
Christ showed his intolerance when he refused to heal the daughter of a woman from Canaan. He proclaimed, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel,” Matthew 15:24. Finally, after the woman pleaded with Christ, he agreed to heal the little girl.
The religious absolutism espoused by Christ has influenced the bloodshed and violence from the time of the Christian Roman emperors of the fourth century until this very moment.
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
It was one day in Honduras when a girl with no hope of a future found out she had one after all. That's one. I could go on for all eternity.
So without Christ, nobody would have hope. In other words there is no hope for the 2/3 of the world's population that doesn't accept Christ as lord and savior and, in fact, my never even have heard of him. It's a shame there is no hope for Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and atheists.
If it hadn't been for the Dark Ages, lasting over 1000 years, that Christ "the light" lead
Europe into, one heck of a lot more people would have a better life today and would not need "hope."
Obviously, many, people have hope--just as they did long before Christ.
Putting words in my mouth now, are we? I simply answered you question, dear. We weren't discussing world religions. You asked me for an example of when Christ gave hope to the hopeless and I answered you.
As to how other people of other religions feel about hope, I suggest you ask them.
If there were another god, it has made itself scarce in my life, thereby not my concern. JMHO
As to how other people of other religions feel about hope, I suggest you ask them.
If there were another god, it has made itself scarce in my life, thereby not my concern. JMHO
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
Putting words in my mouth now, are we? I simply answered you question, dear. We weren't discussing world religions. You asked me for an example of when Christ gave hope to the hopeless and I answered you.
As to how other people of other religions feel about hope, I suggest you ask them.
If there were another god, it has made itself scarce in my life, thereby not my concern. JMHO
The sun rose this morning.
The rooster crowed this morning.
Ergo. The rooster caused the sun to rise.
2000 years ago Christ brought a message of hope to the hopeless.
One day a girl in Honduras had hope.
Ergo. Christ brought a message of hope to a girl in Honduras.
quote:It's a shame there is no hope for Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and atheists.
Jews are in the Bible, particularly Revelations (See Twelve Tribes), Muslims have Jesus and Mary, I don't know about Hindus. There is hope for all, even atheists, but you just want to argue.
BTW, you invoked most of the "Stupid Atheists Tricks", so perhaps you could try some new ones.
I am not going to argue, you remind me of all the dems with BDS. Closed minds, irrational, and emotional.
quote:Originally posted by LMM:quote:It's a shame there is no hope for Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and atheists.
Jews are in the Bible, particularly Revelations (See Twelve Tribes), Muslims have Jesus and Mary, I don't know about Hindus. There is hope for all, even atheists, but you just want to argue.
BTW, you invoked most of the "Stupid Atheists Tricks", so perhaps you could try some new ones.
I am not going to argue, you remind me of all the dems with BDS. Closed minds, irrational, and emotional.
Thank you for proving my point. A girl's alleged good fortune in Honduras had nothing to do with a supposed message of hope from Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, Quetzalcoatl or any other folk hero. After 2000 years of the majority of the human race living in misery, it is senseless to state that one of these folk heros brought about happiness for a girl in Honduras. How about the rest of the Hondurans who continue to exist with a very low standard of living. Of course, they can thank their Christian conquerors for the current sub-standard condition of Central America.
L,
If I take some of the better arguments for god, and call them Stupid Theist Tricks, does that necessarily invalidate them?
I believe it is your Stupid Atheist Trick #3 which mocks the notion that belief in god is as well-grounded as belief in the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. That is a perfectly fine argument, highly defensible, and your assigning a numbered insult to it does not make it invalid.
Luv ya, but calling an argument with which you disagree "stupid" and dismissing it on that ground is a poor reflection on you.
DF
If I take some of the better arguments for god, and call them Stupid Theist Tricks, does that necessarily invalidate them?
I believe it is your Stupid Atheist Trick #3 which mocks the notion that belief in god is as well-grounded as belief in the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. That is a perfectly fine argument, highly defensible, and your assigning a numbered insult to it does not make it invalid.
Luv ya, but calling an argument with which you disagree "stupid" and dismissing it on that ground is a poor reflection on you.
DF
Ah, I never said the argument was stupid. I said he resorted to using 'stupid tricks' to justify his answer. If I said all atheists are immoral, that would be wrong because we know it is not true, but fundys would argue that you cannot have morality without religious beliefs. Defend your point without using a tiresome answer.
If you really want to make an impression on someone, don't use a cliche!
Don't tell me Christianity is wrong due to the crusades, or atheists are right because science says so.
david is not stupid, just "Hellbent" ( ) on trying to make all Christians appear to be mindless, gullible zombies.
Silly Syphilis proved the idiocy of religious zealots, david is simply irritating the audience instead of speaking to it.
If you really want to make an impression on someone, don't use a cliche!
Don't tell me Christianity is wrong due to the crusades, or atheists are right because science says so.
david is not stupid, just "Hellbent" (
) on trying to make all Christians appear to be mindless, gullible zombies.Silly Syphilis proved the idiocy of religious zealots, david is simply irritating the audience instead of speaking to it.
quote:Originally posted by davidnmiles:
The sun rose this morning.
The rooster crowed this morning.
Ergo. The rooster caused the sun to rise.
2000 years ago Christ brought a message of hope to the hopeless.
One day a girl in Honduras had hope.
Ergo. Christ brought a message of hope to a girl in Honduras.
Again, your words, not mine. The girl in Honduras has hope now because she is reconciled to God through Christ, will feel the peace of God through her circumstances and will eventually leave her circumstances to be with a real Father. That is the answer to your question. If you choose to believe that it's not true, you are free to do so.
This may help explain...
"May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15:13
=============================================================
Post hoc, ergo, proctor hoc
DF
DF
Deep, for you it must be coincidence. For me, I know without a shadow of a doubt that it is not because I've experienced it myself.
See, this is why these arguments are pointless. An unbeliever (whatever, it's shorter) asks a believer a question & then they don't believe the answer. Well, DUH. LOL
See, this is why these arguments are pointless. An unbeliever (whatever, it's shorter) asks a believer a question & then they don't believe the answer. Well, DUH. LOL
quote:See, this is why these arguments are pointless
AMEN little sister, but they never end.
quote:If you could travel back in time to the Crucifixion, would you rescue Jesus from the cross?
Oh how I long to stare into thoe beautiful blue eyes and rescue HIM from the evil doers! Of course I wiould rescue HIM yes I would!
1. Jesus did not have blue eyes, that's only in movies.
2. You rescue him, you condemn mankind.
3. Haven't you got tired of this game yet? GoFish, are you that bored?
2. You rescue him, you condemn mankind.
3. Haven't you got tired of this game yet? GoFish, are you that bored?
Ive seen Jesus and he has blue eyes you can trust me.
I have thought about this and I think God would have changed his mind about destroying the entire earth cause he would have to kill his little boy to do it. So as I see it Jesus might have got to live longer if somebdy showed him some love and I certainly could love on HIM.
I have been excused of being 4 differnt users of this blog. Why no one beleive I am who I say I am?
I have thought about this and I think God would have changed his mind about destroying the entire earth cause he would have to kill his little boy to do it. So as I see it Jesus might have got to live longer if somebdy showed him some love and I certainly could love on HIM.
I have been excused of being 4 differnt users of this blog. Why no one beleive I am who I say I am?
quote:I have thought about this and I think God would have changed his mind about destroying the entire earth cause he would have to kill his little boy to do it.
Unlike most of your yammerings, that is awfully insightful, Silly.
I guess I will have to be the 2nd to say that of COURSE I would rescue Him. If the world ends because I could not stand by and let a young man be tortured like that, then y'alls butts are toast.
I have a vision of each of you standing by Jesus' side as he was thrown off the walls if Jerusalem, wailed upon with glass-studded horsewhips, dragged to the cross then hammered upon then until he was permanently affixed. All the while, you people claim you would ignore his pleas.
That kind of devotion is madness, people. Our modern socienty does not allow for that kind of violence when we are capable of doing somehitng about it!
The madness is almost sublime when I see such a notion supported by the most gentle believers we have on this forum.
Skep,
You know history had to play out as it did, that was the plan. Since you don't believe there was a plan, then by all means look on as Christians as mad, horrible, evil people. Most atheists do.
silly4atheists is getting on my nerves.
You know history had to play out as it did, that was the plan. Since you don't believe there was a plan, then by all means look on as Christians as mad, horrible, evil people. Most atheists do.
silly4atheists is getting on my nerves.