I'm offended

Hi Deep,

You are offended because we serve the one true God who created heaven and earth.

Yet, you are not offended when you see students at UC Berkeley blindly applauding your pastor, the Right Reverend Richard Dawkins of the religion of NOTHING.

Give us a break! The Sears catalog which used to hang in my grandpa's outhouse outside Tuscumbia -- had more intelligence in it than all of the rhetoric and jibber-jabber preached by your Reverend Richard Dawkins.

Good luck!

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...o&feature=grec_index

If you believe that your god is the only true god, then whatever he tells you do to, whether through voices in your head or through his agents, the preachers, you are obligated to do that thing.

It's madness. Think for yourselves.

TR

There is no difference between a person who blindly follows a preacher and someone who blindly follows this infidel.

Juggie,

I don't blindly follow this infidel or anyone else.

He makes good sense, though. More sense than any spokesperson for religion does.

Yes, I realize that Dawkins scares Gray to his core, Gray is right to be so scared. Dawkins has his number. Dawkins devastates Gray's every position.

What about you? What do YOU say about Dawkins' statements?

TR

NO WAY! - MY "FATHER" IS BIGGER THAN HIS FATHER!

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Juggie,

I don't blindly follow this infidel or anyone else.

He makes good sense, though. More sense than any spokesperson for religion does.

Yes, I realize that Dawkins scares Gray to his core, Gray is right to be so scared. Dawkins has his number. Dawkins devastates Gray's every position.

What about you? What do YOU say about Dawkins' statements?

TR

Dawkins by his own testimony decided one day to become an Atheist. He has since filtered every experience in his life thru that prism for the purpose of proving to himself that he is right.

Dawkins has no answer for the existence of the spirit in all living creatures. He has half a loaf of kung fu.

Juggie,

OK, let's grant that Dawkins filters information through the filter of atheism.

That is the essence of skepticism. Skepticism is a good thing when gauging truth and reality. When a notion overcomes skepicism, it's on pretty solid ground.

Religion fails the test. Science usually passes, but not always.

One of the normal methods of skepticism is "Show me".

So, show me how religion is right. Understand that I'm disinclined to take your word, but honest enough to accept evidence.

Show me.

Now's your chance.


TR

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Juggie,

OK, let's grant that Dawkins filters information through the filter of atheism.

That is the essence of skepticism. Skepticism is a good thing when gauging truth and reality. When a notion overcomes skepicism, it's on pretty solid ground.

Religion fails the test. Science usually passes, but not always.

One of the normal methods of skepticism is "Show me".

So, show me how religion is right. Understand that I'm disinclined to take your word, but honest enough to accept evidence.

Show me.

Now's your chance.


TR

Sorry my friend, your straw man is weak. Religion isn't right. In that you and I agree.

Religion probably kills as many people as atheism. Religion is man's attempt to contact God thru the vanity of a mind corrupted by sin. Religion is my nature destructive to mankind because it's author and chief proponent came to "steal, kill, and destroy."
In India, religion causes people to starve, causes unsanitary conditions leading to diseases and death, lowers the standard of living, locks the minds of men ina prison without escape.
In the middle east religion imprisons entire populaces, suppresses human rights and dignities, and endangers the lives and welfare of the peoples accross the world.

No my friend, I don't come to you with religion. I come to you with liberty.

quote:

So, show me how religion is right. Understand that I'm disinclined to take your word, but honest enough to accept evidence.

You are always offended, as well as the great crusader Dawkins.

What do you accept as evidence considering that any thing presented will be dismissed as imaginary, a fluke, coincidence, luck, chance, unknown, or ignorant?

Just wondering.

quote:

So, show me how religion is right. Understand that I'm disinclined to take your word, but honest enough to accept evidence.

BCBG, you are a very intelligent person. This is pretty much undisputable. Faith is believing without seeing. I don't guess anyone will be able to give you "proof" that God is in Heaven, with Jesus at His Right Hand. Faith is a mystery. It cannot be proven. Just accepted or not accepted. I hope someday, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you may believe. If not, ok. You're perogative. But Faith in God cannot follow the scientific method.
I wish you well.

Read this:

http://www.bethinking.org/scie...the-god-delusion.htm

Better yet, read Antony Flew’s book There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed his Mind

Antony Flew believed in following where the evidence leads. Do you?

quote:

Originally posted by Jugflier:


Dawkins by his own testimony decided one day to become an Atheist. He has since filtered every experience in his life thru that prism for the purpose of proving to himself that he is right.

you mean, like bill gray and the fundies* do?

quote:

Dawkins has no answer for the existence of the spirit in all living creatures. He has ]half a loaf of kung fu.

this a a great movie. BAD.. but great.

*this would be a great name for a band


Coming in at Number one for the 3rd week in a row, it's 'Oh Lord, what on earth is my hair-do all about' by bill gray and the fundies!

It's ALL jibber-jabber!

quote:

If you believe that your god is the only true god, then whatever he tells you do to, whether through voices in your head or through his agents, the preachers, you are obligated to do that thing.

It's madness. Think for yourselves.

I would not presume to say that all Christians have to have the exact same experience however, as you have seen in other post of mine, God's Holy Spirit resides (actually lives and dwells) within the physical body of the believer. This Holy Spirit is a literal gift of God to the believer whereby God accomplishes many different and diverse things among which, a few, are verification that the believer's conversion or salvation is legit and real. Also God's Holy Spirit allows the believer to communicate with God but not in human words but through prayers and unspoken thoughts as well as allowing God to communicate to the believer through His word, the Bible from which God reveals His truth.

I realize all this is conjecture to you and many that don't believe it or even believe in a Spiritual Realm but just because you fail to accept and just because science can't measure it or document it doesn't make it any less real.

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
If you believe that your god is the only true god, then whatever he tells you do to, whether through voices in your head or through his agents, the preachers, you are obligated to do that thing. It's madness. Think for yourselves.

I would not presume to say that all Christians have to have the exact same experience however, as you have seen in other post of mine, God's Holy Spirit resides (actually lives and dwells) within the physical body of the believer. This Holy Spirit is a literal gift of God to the believer whereby God accomplishes many different and diverse things among which, a few, are verification that the believer's conversion or salvation is legit and real. Also God's Holy Spirit allows the believer to communicate with God but not in human words but through prayers and unspoken thoughts as well as allowing God to communicate to the believer through His word, the Bible from which God reveals His truth.

I realize all this is conjecture to you and many that don't believe it or even believe in a Spiritual Realm but just because you fail to accept and just because science can't measure it or document it doesn't make it any less real.

Hi GB,

How true. Without spiritual discernment; it is virtually impossible to believe. For years, before I was a Christian believer, I would try to read the Bible but could not understand it or make sense of what it said.

Once I became a Christian believer, with the indwelling Holy Spirit to lead me and teach me -- I have found that daily I grow in my knowledge of God's Written Word.

Yet, our Friend, Deep, is still spiritually blind and cannot see the beautiful sunset God shows us in His Word.

This is why we believers are to be sharing His Word; with the hopes that a seed we plant, even a small seed, hardly noticed -- will one day be harvested by the Holy Spirit as another soul saved. And, I pray that Deep is one of those souls.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

To all our Christian Friends, I say:

BCBG, think of how many intangibles we experience every day- in the form of emotions.
You can't "prove" hope, yet you know that hope exists.
You can't "prove" love, yet you (sometimes) feel it for your spouse..haha.
Faith is kind of the same- it is an indwelling, spiritual feeling- not an emotion, but comparable in that it is not something you can put your finger on and measure, but when you have it, you feel it.
So it's not all nonsense, really. It is an intangible, but our Lord did say "Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe".
If this falls on deaf ears, so be it. But I would say leave "organized religion" alone for a while, and just think about your own spirituality. See what flows from there.
veep.

We have one God,most of us know that and worship him and praise him everyday, some give him praise all day. Some go to church, some don't,some claim to be Christians that aren't,some have doubts and true Christians will do what they are taught and try to turn the nonbeliever towards the lord and get them on the right path. Which I believe is the right thing to do. But I also think going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a Garage makes you a car. We as Christians should practice what we preach ! Not saying any of don't, but if more Christians would stand up for God this world would be so much better.

Agreed Hometowngirl! We walk by faith not by sight. I recently had someone very very close to me say that he no longer believed in God. My husband replied with the following: "I hope you prove me wrong, because if you are right, then I have done nothing but live a little better and been a little kinder. But if you are wrong, you have EVERYTHING to lose". So true.

You don't have to believe to live better or kinder. Don't judge people who may believe differently than you. That wouldn't be Christian now would it?

/me agrees w/ Jaxon.

You don't have to read "the good book" to be a good man just the same...

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:
/me agrees w/ Jaxon.

You don't have to read "the good book" to be a good man just the same...

So giving people the finger makes you a good man?
What about eating sushi off of naked bodies? Do both of these actions display the virtuousness of man without the "Good Book"?

quote:

Originally posted by Jugflier:

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:
/me agrees w/ Jaxon.

You don't have to read "the good book" to be a good man just the same...

So giving people the finger makes you a good man?
What about eating sushi off of naked bodies? Do both of these actions display the virtuousness of man without the "Good Book"?

Oh? You wanna insult me? I don't ever remember stepping on your toes. Guess you're not a shining example of goodness either. Mr. Pot- Meet Mr. Kettle.

Eating sushi off of naked bodies? Who thinks like that? Man, you got some nerve questioning MY morals.. I never woulda considered it, but now that ya mention it-if those bodies looked like Claudia Schiffer-Sign me up, hand me a bib and bring on the fish.

Ya need to read the whole sentence. I use my finger only because my horn doesn't work. Besides, I only give really ignorant or stupid people the finger when they truly ask for it.

You know...Eye for an eye and all...

When my finger gets tired I'll switch to my pre-ban belt-fed assault weapon.

You only make yourself look like a hypocrite when you pee on me in front of everybody here and tell me it's rainin'.

Have a blinkered day.

[quote] Eating sushi off of naked bodies? Who thinks like that? Man, you got some nerve questioning MY morals.. I never woulda considered it, but now that ya mention it-if those bodies looked like Claudia Schiffer-Sign me up, hand me a bib and bring on the fish.[quote/]

That was the great pastime of the former Deep Fat, another so called hero of the atheist wing.
My statement was not an insult, it was designed to be an eye opener. It seems that your post is an eye opener as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Jugflier:

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:
/me agrees w/ Jaxon.

You don't have to read "the good book" to be a good man just the same...

So giving people the finger makes you a good man?
What about eating sushi off of naked bodies? Do both of these actions display the virtuousness of man without the "Good Book"?

i read ' the good book'. i read lots of them.
i've read the bible as well. and the qua'ran.
and the book of mormon, which is a scream.

i'd like to eat sushi off of a naked claudia schiffer.

i don't know what one has to do with the other, i just thought i'd join in.

is there a list i need to sign up on to be in line for the free seafood and naked supermodel lunch?

Claudia? In her altogether? With sushi?

Sch-winggggggggggg!

That would make any man better.

quote:

BCBG, you are a very intelligent person. This is pretty much undisputable. Faith is believing without seeing. I don't guess anyone will be able to give you "proof" that God is in Heaven, with Jesus at His Right Hand. Faith is a mystery. It cannot be proven. Just accepted or not accepted. I hope someday, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you may believe. If not, ok. You're perogative. But Faith in God cannot follow the scientific method.
I wish you well.

Applause!

Veep, we must share a beer or three some day.

Sounds great. I wonder if the "forum" would make better sense if we were hammered.

quote:

Sez vplee123:
Sounds great. I wonder if the "forum" would make better sense if we were hammered.

Nope...

quote:

Originally posted by CageTheElephant:

quote:

Sez vplee123:
Sounds great. I wonder if the "forum" would make better sense if we were hammered.

Nope...

Confirmed. it really doesn't help at all..

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by CageTheElephant:

quote:

Sez vplee123:
Sounds great. I wonder if the "forum" would make better sense if we were hammered.

Nope...

Confirmed. it really doesn't help at all..

Roger that, but I bet the mood would lighten considerably!

quote:

BCBG, you are a very intelligent person. This is pretty much undisputable. Faith is believing without seeing. I don't guess anyone will be able to give you "proof" that God is in Heaven, with Jesus at His Right Hand. Faith is a mystery. It cannot be proven. Just accepted or not accepted. I hope someday, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you may believe. If not, ok. You're perogative. But Faith in God cannot follow the scientific method.
I wish you well.

Well, thanks, veep, I wish you well also.

Let's discuss acceptance of a concept. Let's say I come to you with a concept that says there is a holy teapot orbiting the sun just between Venus and Jupiter. Belief in this holy teapot brings you eternal happiness and worldly riches. I have no evidence for my premise.

It's a rich premise. Who doesn't want eternal happiness and worldly riches?

But, I have no evidence for my premise. Why shouldn't you believe me? The teapot is every bit as compelling as Jesus, or Allah, or Quetzalcoatl. It promises much the same stuff.

Only the teapot accepts you whether or not you accept it. Your spot in Tea Heaven is assured, regardless, that's how much the teapot loves you. A better deal than Christianity, isn't it?

Why wouldn't you believe? Perhaps because someone made it up?


YU

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:

quote:

BCBG, you are a very intelligent person. This is pretty much undisputable. Faith is believing without seeing. I don't guess anyone will be able to give you "proof" that God is in Heaven, with Jesus at His Right Hand. Faith is a mystery. It cannot be proven. Just accepted or not accepted. I hope someday, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you may believe. If not, ok. You're perogative. But Faith in God cannot follow the scientific method.
I wish you well.

Well, thanks, veep, I wish you well also.

Let's discuss acceptance of a concept. Let's say I come to you with a concept that says there is a holy teapot orbiting the sun just between Venus and Jupiter. Belief in this holy teapot brings you eternal happiness and worldly riches. I have no evidence for my premise.

It's a rich premise. Who doesn't want eternal happiness and worldly riches?

But, I have no evidence for my premise. Why shouldn't you believe me? The teapot is every bit as compelling as Jesus, or Allah, or Quetzalcoatl. It promises much the same stuff.

Only the teapot accepts you whether or not you accept it. Your spot in Tea Heaven is assured, regardless, that's how much the teapot loves you. A better deal than Christianity, isn't it?

Why wouldn't you believe? Perhaps because someone made it up?


YU

Darjeeling or Oolong?

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by CageTheElephant:

quote:

Sez vplee123:
Sounds great. I wonder if the "forum" would make better sense if we were hammered.

Nope...

Confirmed. it really doesn't help at all..

Roger that, but I bet the mood would lighten considerably!

it certainly makes bill easier to take. it helps turn him from a raving nutter to a fruity old kook.

Well, BCBG, that is an interesting analogy. The main difference, here, is that Jesus came to earth, walked among us, and performed teachings and miracles, witnessed by many. And, passed to this day via Apostolic Succession and His Holy Word.
His Life on earth was to reveal the Glory of the Father, and SHOW US how we are called to be- so that sins may be forgiven.
So, unless my earl grey grows legs and says "follow me", I won't really believe in a magical teapot

"Only the teapot accepts you whether or not you accept it. Your spot in Tea Heaven is assured, regardless, that's how much the teapot loves you."

Now, this is where the "once saved, always saved" crowd and I diverge. I don't believe that you invite Jesus into your life and POOF you are guaranteed a spot in Heaven. I think we need to constantly pray for His mercy, and live the life that Jesus set for us as an example. I do believe that sin causes us to separate from the love of God.
So, I "get" what you are saying- but I base my faith on eye witnesses, and through God revealing Himself to me in prayer. At the risk of sounding like a wacko, once the Holy Spirit dwells in you, your faith sustains you.
But if you liken faith to science, or magic, you will be spinning your wheels, I'm afraid.
I don't have all the answers. There is much that confuses me, but it is ENOUGH for me to accept that it is a mystery. Every Mass we say "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith- Christ Has Died, Christ is Risen , Christ will come again".
That's enough for me. I would make myself nutso if I thought I could understand it all- we're not meant to. His fullness will be revealed at a later date.
A wise priest once said "God's ways are so far above our ways, as the Heavens are above the earth".

hope that makes a little bit of sense to you. I am rambling..lotsa sun and bedtime wine tends to have that effect on me. Peace out!

Hi VP and Deep,

You both are overlooking one very important fact: FAITH must be based upon something.

And, the Christian faith is based upon the proven prophecies of the Bible and proven prayers that have been demonstratively proven in personal experiences.

I have both of these -- therefore, I have FAITH that God is God and that Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior.

And, because of this -- I have FAITH that He will keep His promises: eternal security for all believers, the rapture of all believers, His coming Millennial Kingdom for all believers, His promise of an eternity with God for all believers.

All of these I believe because I have FAITH, a FAITH based upon proven prophecies and proven prayers answered.

Try it! You will like it!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

It would be nice if we could have an intelligent conversation without all this blustering. It diminishes the discussion and goes completely off topic. It is always easier to bring up meaningless points than to actually discuss fact.

As for proven prophecies, I guess that would be up to the individual. I personally am unaware of any proven ones. Lots of talk, but no proof by my standard.

We could go on forever and never agree. That is my point. I will respect your beliefs and I will expect you to respect mine. To think that your belief is any better or worse than anyone else's is arrogant and egotistical. Not the best qualities to have.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaxon:
It would be nice if we could have an intelligent conversation without all this blustering. It diminishes the discussion and goes completely off topic. It is always easier to bring up meaningless points than to actually discuss fact.

As for proven prophecies, I guess that would be up to the individual. I personally am unaware of any proven ones. Lots of talk, but no proof by my standard.

We could go on forever and never agree. That is my point. I will respect your beliefs and I will expect you to respect mine. To think that your belief is any better or worse than anyone else's is arrogant and egotistical. Not the best qualities to have.

well said.

while i may not agree with quite a lot of people on here, i do soundly respect their beliefs, and i respect our differences.

i enjoy discussing our difference. Gene and i are about as far apart and thinking people can be, and i enjoy his posts.. he gives me far mo to think about than Bil''s tired old rhetoric does.

unfortunatly, bill is abotu to pounce on you because you said something other than ' Oh Bill You are so right, let me lick your feet"

Bill does not act like God, he is only giving you Gods word, take it or leave it.

he gives us his personal version of God's word.

i reject his version of God's word as BS.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
he gives us his personal version of God's word.
i reject his version of God's word as BS.

Hi Nagel,

Yes, I do share the Written Word of God -- which happens to be the inspired, inerrant, literal Word of God, the Bible.

And, yes, you do reject that -- for, you view the Bible through Liberal Theology glasses which wants the Bible viewed as only a good book, but, not the Written Word of God.

God tells us it is His inspired, inerrant, literal Word, in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 -- but, Nagel tells us, "No, that is not true."

Gee, I wonder who had more inside information on this -- Nagel or God?

Personally, I will lay all my bets on God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill