I'm offended

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
he gives us his personal version of God's word.
i reject his version of God's word as BS.

Hi Nagel,

Yes, I do share the Written Word of God -- which happens to be the inspired, inerrant, literal Word of God, the Bible.

And, yes, you do reject that -- for, you view the Bible through Liberal Theology glasses which wants the Bible viewed as only a good book, but, not the Written Word of God.

God tells us it is His inspired, inerrant, literal Word, in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 -- but, Nagel tells us, "No, that is not true."

Gee, I wonder who had more inside information on this -- Nagel or God?

Personally, I will lay all my bets on God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

i thought betting was sinful?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaxon:
It would be nice if we could have an intelligent conversation without all this blustering. It diminishes the discussion and goes completely off topic. It is always easier to bring up meaningless points than to actually discuss fact.

As for proven prophecies, I guess that would be up to the individual. I personally am unaware of any proven ones. Lots of talk, but no proof by my standard.

We could go on forever and never agree. That is my point. I will respect your beliefs and I will expect you to respect mine. To think that your belief is any better or worse than anyone else's is arrogant and egotistical. Not the best qualities to have.

Hi Jaxon,

There are over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, over 300 about Jesus Christ. All, except the End Times and His return have been fulfilled. I could show you in the Bible where prophecies were made and where they were fulfilled. However, you may say that this is only the Bible fulfilling itself. I can show you archeological proof of fulfilled prophecy, most of which is secular.

So, let's talk about Bible prophecy, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament -- fulfilled and witnessed by OUR generation. Yes, I am talking about the nation Israel. There are many prophecies about the Israeli people and the nation of Israel. But, so that I do not use what some would call circular reasoning -- please watch this video.

It tells of the prophecies -- and shows us, in OUR generation, how these prophecies have been fulfilled -- just as God said would be done.

The videos are in six parts, but, I will start you with part two. Then, if you want, you can watch the others. However, this will show God's prophecies fulfilled. What is true of these prophecies is true of the 1800 prophecies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL_-nmxSNJw&NR=1

You may disclaim this if you like -- but, truth speaks loud and clear. And, Bible prophecy is truth unfolding before our eyes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

There are over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, over 300 about Jesus Christ. All, except the End Times and His return have been fulfilled. I could show you in the Bible where prophecies were made and where they were fulfilled. However, you may say that this is only the Bible fulfilling itself. I can show you archeological proof of fulfilled prophecy, most of which is secular.

OK. do it.
use secular (non biblical, or having any referance to biblical sources) proof to show me that these 1800 have been fulfilled.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
There are over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, over 300 about Jesus Christ. All, except the End Times and His return have been fulfilled. I could show you in the Bible where prophecies were made and where they were fulfilled. However, you may say that this is only the Bible fulfilling itself. I can show you archeological proof of fulfilled prophecy, most of which is secular.

OK. do it. use secular (non biblical, or having any referance to biblical sources) proof to show me that these 1800 have been fulfilled.

YOU SHOW US PROOF THEY "NOT" BEEN FULFILLED!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
There are over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, over 300 about Jesus Christ. All, except the End Times and His return have been fulfilled. I could show you in the Bible where prophecies were made and where they were fulfilled. However, you may say that this is only the Bible fulfilling itself. I can show you archeological proof of fulfilled prophecy, most of which is secular.

OK. do it. use secular (non biblical, or having any referance to biblical sources) proof to show me that these 1800 have been fulfilled.

YOU SHOW US PROOF THEY "NOT" BEEN FULFILLED!

i can't.. i don't even know what they are, and i'm not the one making any claims on the subject.

you claim you can show us that 1800 prophecies have been fulfilled, useing secular sources only.

so do it.

put up, or shut up.

fish, or cut bait, bill.

Bill, I don't even know where to start. I saw no proof. When it refers to "students predicted", where in there was it stating a prophecy of the Bible?

When what is written is written in vague generalities and people want to interpret it to fit a circumstance, I don't call that fulfilling a prophecy.

There are 1800 of them and this is your best shot? I find that there is no more proof than the "predictions" of Nostradamus' quatrains. I am sure you believe in those as well even after they have been proven to be bunk.

If there is a God (so, I must be agnostic), it would not be one that requires blind faith. He would be loving and caring and not make everyone jump through hoops and blindly believe. He would show us his love and understanding, not hell, fire and brimstone.

The Bible was written centuries ago and has been translated through the generations with many inaccuracies. There were chapters left out because they were not "politically correct". It was written and compiled centuries after the events were to have taken place.

I don't know about you, but I have never heard a story repeated twice the same way in the same day. Add a few centuries and wow what you can come up with.

You have beliefs that were taught in the home you grew up in. If you had been born to a family with different beliefs, you would be as convicted in those beliefs.

I just don't think a loving and caring God would play silly games. "You can't see me, but I'm here!" "Good happens because I love you." "Bad happens because I have a reason, but I won't tell you what it is."

Faith is overrated! I keep up my side of the bargain and I expect more than a game of peek-a-boo.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaxon:
You don't have to believe to live better or kinder. Don't judge people who may believe differently than you. That wouldn't be Christian now would it?

That is true... I didn't say that a non-believer wasn't nice and kind... I said that IF nonbelievers are right we have nothing to lose, if we live by the Bible, if the Nonbeliever is wrong... the have everything to lose... bye saying that... I am saying if you are right... what we have lived won't affect us at all as non-belivers and if you are wrong... and you haven't believed in Jesus Christ and lived by his teachings... there will be an ultimate price you pay and that is not having your name written in the Book of LIfe... I never said that anyone wasn't nice or kind. I know that some non-belivers go after Christians... not because I read it here but because my Savior warns of that. I know that what people say to me doesn't define me... it defines them!

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...o&feature=grec_index

If you believe that your god is the only true god, then whatever he tells you do to, whether through voices in your head or through his agents, the preachers, you are obligated to do that thing.

It's madness. Think for yourselves.

TR

You are posting something by Richard Dawkins, a propaganda-loving blowhard. Take your own advice and please think for yourself.

I get really tired of being told that I don't think for myself by people who clearly lack the ability to think for themselves, demonstrated repeatedly by their own words and actions.

Psychologists call this projection, a defense mechanism that involves taking your own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people.

Well said Joy.

Thanks, b50m.

My dear Joy,

Did you watch Dawkins' video? Did he blow hard in it?

Do you agree with him that children should be given a proper education, and that it's offensive when they are not?

Are you offended when children are threatened with an eternity in hell?

Were you offended when W restricted stem cell research on a ridiculous religious ground?

Does giving baseless dogma equal weight to science offend you?

How about religiously-mandated genital surgery, such as ****orectomies, labiectomies, and circumcisions performed on defenseless youth? How about hymen reconstruction surgery in Muslim areas?

Are you offended by the stoning to death of rude women in Muslim areas? Honor killings there, as well?

I'm offended when people say God has told them to commit violence onto other people. Are you?

I'm not a disciple of Dawkins. I find what he says refreshingly honest and clearly true, usually. What he says is not true because he says it, it's usually true because it's true.

God, on the other hand, lays down morals that he does not follow. Isn't that offensive? Is it moral because God says it is, or is there a morality to which even God is subject? Or is it moral because we humans must get along with each other, and treat our fellow humans in ways that we would prefer to be treated?

I don't have all the answers, but I know what the answer is not. It is not the scribblings of interpretations of ancient desert tribal folklore. We can do better, and we'd dman well better get about it, because time is running out.

I have thought for myself, and I continue to do so. I have considered not only the Bible, but several "holy" scriptures and found them to all be nonsense. I have considered whether or not personal revelation is self-delusion and found it to be so.

How dare you tell me that I have not thought this out? I've considered the questions for decades, and always come to the same conclusion. Religion is made by people, for people, whose interests are in the here and now.

If, on the odd chance that I am wrong, then we mere humans are incapable of understanding any religious ultimate reality. Not only does our Troll Emeritus here have his head up his keester, but so does every one else who presumes to know the mind of god. They dman surely are not qualified to run MY life because of their delusions. Nor are they privileged to threaten me with eternal hell; they are evolved primates like you and me, and in no better position to know the unknowable than we are.

Religion is easy. Go with the flow. Join a popular club. It takes no thought, no introspection, no critical analysis. It comes with a large support structure.

And you accuse me of failing to observe other points of view. That's just rich. It's precious. Do you think I've never read the Bible? The Quran? The Bhagavad Gita? The Book of Tao? Please, hon.

Elsewhere in this forum is a thread about whether the truth of religion matters. You will be shocked, I hope, to find that it does not to the religious. It matters to me. It's big, to me. Dawkins and I are entirely within our rights to be offended when horrible things happen because people adhere to religions that are untrue.

All religions cannot be true. At most, one can be. This is simple logic. One of my friends here says there are many paths to god. With all respect and affection for him, this is tosh. The Earth is a very small place, and the alleged god is very big. There is just no reason for all the confusion. There is one very good reason that explains the confusion, however: We made up the gods within our own tribes and cultures. It's the only explanation that makes any sense whatever.

Oh, no, my dear, I've given this lots of thought, and I'm not closed-minded about anything, but I will not be swayed without evidence, and I have seen none for religion. Not a speck.

Our friend Road Puppy famously said that every time he opened his mind to religion, people started shoveling religious manure into it. I hope he'll forgive me if I borrow that one. But, he's right. An open mind, guarded by an honest skepticism, will usually let in truth. A BS filter is necessary, you will admit.

Stay in touch.

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:

be. This is simple logic. One of my friends here says there are many paths to god. With all respect and affection for him, this is tosh.

<pssst...> if this is in reference to me, i just wanted to clarify - i was just presenting a possibility, not something i believe to be true. just something interesting to think about.
if you didn't mean me, ignore this

Psht...I'm not offended. He's not even a worthy opponent. Please.

You've posted his crap before and my evaluation was made long before today as well as explained in detail. You have an excellent memory & already know this. I was right about him then and I'm right about him now. Giving credence to anything this man has to say requires one to not think for oneself.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
If you believe that your god is the only true god, then whatever he tells you do to, whether through voices in your head or through his agents, the preachers, you are obligated to do that thing. It's madness. Think for yourselves.
TR

You are posting something by Richard Dawkins, a propaganda-loving blowhard. Take your own advice and please think for yourself.

I get really tired of being told that I don't think for myself by people who clearly lack the ability to think for themselves, demonstrated repeatedly by their own words and actions.

Psychologists call this projection, a defense mechanism that involves taking your own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people.

Thanks, Bill.

This is a copy/paste from a fairly old thread, but applicable to this one as well.

A good example of Dawkins' propaganda is found in The Root of All Evil? Part 1: The God Delusion. (Richard Dawkins, 2006). From the video...

"Fundamentalist American Christianity is attacking Science. But what is it offering instead? A mirror image of Islamic extremism instead, an American Taliban."

Then while showing pictures of the Twin Towers falling, articles about Bin laden & parts of a speech by Bush in the background, Dawkins says the following:

"To understand the likes of Osama Bin Laden, you have to realize that the religious terrorism they inspire is the logical outcome of deeply held faith. Even so-called moderate believers are part of the same religious fabric. They encourage unreason as a positive virtue. What’s really scary is that religious warriors think of what they are doing as the ultimate good. Those of us brought up in Christianity can soon get the message…”Onward Christian Soldiers”, “fight the good fight”, “Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the Cross”, but as far as I’m concerned, they all between good and evil is really just the wall between two evils."

This last bit tells me he is clueless. What we are in actuality told is straight for the Bible..."For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" - Ephesians 6:12. To dummy that up, it is a SPIRITUAL battle.

Hi Deep,

My Friend, I do believe you have just about done all the "farming" you can in Forumland with your religion of Nothing. It would seem that you attempts to plant the religion of Nothing in Forumland has hit a drought.

But, please do hang around. Maybe one of the seeds of salvation found in Christianity will one day find a small patch of fertile soil within your heart.

I sincerely would love to walk in heaven with your one day.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hi Joy,

I have always viewed Dawkins like the little boy who is scared of the dark and keeps telling himself over and over, "I am not scared! I am not scared! I am not scared!"

It seems his logic is that if one repeats the same old thing over and over -- it may one day be true.

And, in the meantime, Dawkins is getting rich selling his rhetoric to the gullible in our society.

Oh, well, God has told us in the Bible that the Apostasy must come first. So, let's keep looking up -- for, based upon such teachings, our deliverance must be close at hand.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Joy,

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Are you open minded enough to at least entertain Dawkins' premises before you dismiss them?


UT

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Joy,

You didn't answer any of my questions. Are you open minded enough to at least entertain Dawkins' premises before you dismiss them?

Hi Deep,

The only problem with your suggestion is that, for the past three plus years, we have ingested so much of your Dawkins' tripe -- that all he does is give us gas.

Face it, Deep, except for yourself and a couple of others, Dawkins would go broke trying to sell his books on this Religion Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Joy,

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Are you open minded enough to at least entertain Dawkins' premises before you dismiss them?


UT

He lost his validity by his own actions and by his own words. I won't waste my time and energy on the ravings of a madman...mad or crazy like a fox. He's either crazy or he's the Bill O'Reilly of Atheism...telling extremists what they want to hear and laughing all the way to the bank.

Oh, Joy, your ad hominem is beneath you.

What if... just what if... he has a point?

Dawkins has endeared himself to intellectuals around the world. He may be poison in your church, but he's struck a chord with thinking people all over the planet.

You dismiss him because of who he is, not because of what he says. Answer my questions. I got them from the video in question. They're his questions.

I do not think that you are incapable of offense from ignorance, stupidity, and superstitious momentum.

UT

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Oh, Joy, your ad hominem is beneath you.

What if... just what if... he has a point?

Dawkins has endeared himself to intellectuals around the world. He may be poison in your church, but he's struck a chord with thinking people all over the planet.

You dismiss him because of who he is, not because of what he says. Answer my questions. I got them from the video in question. They're his questions. I do not think that you are incapable of offense from ignorance, stupidity, and superstitious momentum.

Hi Deep,

Not that I am trying to answer for Joy; only for myself. We have been seeing your Dawkins YouTubes and rhetorical tripe for years. As we are told in Ecclesiastes 1:9 ". . .So there is nothing new under the sun" -- especially when it comes to Dawkins.

You tell us, "Dawkins has endeared himself to intellectuals. . ."

I would amend that to say "Dawkins has endeared himself to ATHEIST intellectuals. . ."

Not sure, but, I do hope that is not an oxymoron -- atheist intellectuals.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Jaxon:
Faith is overrated! I keep up my side of the bargain and I expect more than a game of peek-a-boo.

Hi Jaxon,

Not a problem! But, since you do not believe in God, nor have faith that He exists -- I guess we can draw the conclusion your religion is atheism or, at best, agnosticism.

This all seem kind of unfair. We Christian believers KNOW how it all will end -- and you atheists/agnostics are just hoping it does not get worse than this life.

I am not quite sure how to tell you this -- but, it does get worse -- MUCH WORSE!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Oh, Joy, your ad hominem is beneath you.

What if... just what if... he has a point?


lol What if... just what if... God is real? Which he is.
Why cant you ask yourself the same question? When you do see he is real, you have had a bad day. You are so smart, that you are dumb. Who would you be promoting if you didnt have dawkins?

quote:

Originally posted by HadEnough:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Oh, Joy, your ad hominem is beneath you.

What if... just what if... he has a point?


lol What if... just what if... God is real? Which he is.
Why cant you ask yourself the same question? When you do see he is real, you have had a bad day. You are so smart, that you are dumb. Who would you be promoting if you didnt have dawkins?

Gotta love that "kid logic."

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by HadEnough:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Oh, Joy, your ad hominem is beneath you.

What if... just what if... he has a point?


lol What if... just what if... God is real? Which he is.
Why cant you ask yourself the same question? When you do see he is real, you have had a bad day. You are so smart, that you are dumb. Who would you be promoting if you didnt have dawkins?

Gotta love that "kid logic."

Kid logic? This coming from "Horn broken-Watch for finger" Please, you are either an idiot or a redneck, I think redneck would be the right answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Oh, Joy, your ad hominem is beneath you.

What if... just what if... he has a point?

Dawkins has endeared himself to intellectuals around the world. He may be poison in your church, but he's struck a chord with thinking people all over the planet.

You dismiss him because of who he is, not because of what he says. Answer my questions. I got them from the video in question. They're his questions.

I do not think that you are incapable of offense from ignorance, stupidity, and superstitious momentum.

UT

LOL...Dawkins being the King of ad hominem, as well as yourself. How quickly do you discount the findings of scientists who also happen to be Christians?

The only people Dawkins fools with feigned intellectualism are those who hear what they want to hear and have no intention of checking to see if he knows his butt from a banana. I did...turns out he doesn't.

He either has NO understanding of the subject on which he is speaking or he is a liar. Either way, I'd be embarrassed to quote him as a reliable source. I only had to watch a few minutes of any of his videos to find him inept (please see post on God Delusion). I can only imagine how much material he'd give me if I watched all of them.

quote:

Originally posted by HadEnough:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
Oh, Joy, your ad hominem is beneath you.

What if... just what if... he has a point?


lol What if... just what if... God is real? Which he is.
Why cant you ask yourself the same question? When you do see he is real, you have had a bad day. You are so smart, that you are dumb. Who would you be promoting if you didnt have dawkins?

I have pondered the reality of god, HadE. I still do. He's just not there.

FYI, I was an atheist before atheism was cool. Dawkins just happens to be an eloquent and effective speaker for what he and I know is very, very likely the case.

quote:

LOL...Dawkins being the King of ad hominem, as well as yourself. How quickly do you discount the findings of scientists who also happen to be Christians?

Moi? I try very hard to avoid ad hominems. If you can show me where I've made one, please do so I can rectify that. An argument stands alone, regardless of who makes it. That is why I do not discount science done by Christians. Dr. Francis Collins headed the human genome project, and he's a famous Christian. That was some excellent work.

"Creation" science, on the other hand, is bunk, and I don't care who proposes it. It is based on no experimental data and proposes no comprehensive theory. It starts with a conclusion and then tries, poorly, to find data to support that conclusion. That, my friend, is not even wrong, it's just not science.

I like Dr. Collins, too. Have you read his book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief? I liked it and agree with most of what he has to say.

The possibility that the world was created by a superior being is not bunk. It can be made without ever knowing or naming the superior being and absolutely no need to "start with a conclusion". IMO, it is where an honest scientist would naturally arrive if they cared more about the truth than the ridicule of others and the fear that those crazy Christians could be right.

--------------------------------------------------------

quote:

The possibility that the world was created by a superior being is not bunk. It does not require that a person starts with a conclusion.

It is precisely a conclusion first. What is the evidence that the world was created deliberately?

There is much evidence that the world is a natural part of a natural universe that requires no creator.

What creates a sand dune on the beach? God, or the motion of the waves? We understand the waves, and the sand upon which they act. God is not required.

Whoops! I was still working on that post & didn't know you'd responded.

As you can see, I went on to say that IMO, it is where an honest scientist would naturally arrive if they cared more about the truth than the ridicule of others or the fear that those crazy Christians could be right.

Our existence and this world's existence is impossible. By everything scientists have proven thus far, this world should not be here.

My dear Joy,

I'm afraid your premise is self-contradictory. We are here.

Not only that, but science has a pretty solid handle on why and how we are here in this form.

I don't even know why you'd say something like that. If science has shown why we should not be here, and I do not grant that premise, then it simply has work to do, because we are here.


LK

Yes, we are here, and scientists have a general idea of what would have been necessary for it to happen, but it is mathematically impossible for it to happen. This points to someone forcing it to happen. That is an honest conclusion, not based on religion, not based on fear of anyone being right or fear of anyone being wrong, just an honest logical conclusion.

Dr. Collins says it better...start at 2:48 in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP_keLq80eI

It is NOT mathematically improbable that we are here. It's mathematically likely.

In the virtually infinite universe, mustn't there be some environments in which life is possible? Yes. The confluence of conditions that allow life are mathematically mandated, not disallowed.

Life is rare. As far as we know, we are the ONLY form of life at our level of development. The odds are that there are others, but we have no evidence of that, so we must remain open minded about that.

It's obviously not mathematically impossible for life to occur, because here we are. Your math must be wrong.

U7

As you well know, it's not my math and you also know my conclusion is a sound one.

I know no such thing.

Please produce the math. I don't believe it exists.


U7

You dont believe, see thats the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
I know no such thing.

Please produce the math. I don't believe it exists.


U7

Oh, bologna.

Anyone who has questions, just read Dr. Collins book. I checked it out from our local library. Hopefully, he'll include much of the info in the videos. I'm listening to those now (see thread on Dr. Collins).

HadE,

The problem is you don't understand. I suspect you never will.

U7