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I came to this Religion forum to possibly find some answer's & learn something, from Christians & Atheist alike. This forum has gotton to the point that it's like alot of churches & the people within them.

There's some "Christians" here that have reminded me all over again of one of the reasons why I left church in the first place. Those that wear the hat & the many hyprocrites that are in the churches, some of them is alive & well on this forum.

Everybody has an opinion......the Bible says this, the scripture means that, this/that church is a cult, you need to find God & do this, this & this. I don't see the advantage (others may see it too) in coming here anymore since it's turned into a fighting ring, arguing with each other, what this or that scripture means, & name calling.

Nothing can be learned when everyone has different opinions as to what  the Bible & scriptures mean. I'm tired of all the back-biting, arguing, name calling, & everything else that goes with it, & I'm just as guilty of it as anyone else, and I will not do it again.

 

I'm not leaving all the forums, because I enjoy reading those & the paper online. But I will not be back on this forum. No need to reply because I won't be reading here anymore.   

Maybe I'll see some of you in other forum's, except Politics, I don't do that forum.

 

In case you're wondering, you will see that I posted in the topic about Santorum stepping down. I decided to do this after that when reading some of the usual bickering.

 

O No, if you see this email or PM me.

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Well Semi, Not sure if you will see this or not but I hate to see you go. One thing about the religion forum is that we have Catholics, Baptists, Church of Christ, Methodist, etc... who all have a few theological differences that are near opposites on a few points and then throw in the mix a few a few atheists and that every now and then a Jehovah's witness or Mormon drops by. With that mix we have a recipe for not only some intense debates but for a lot of arguing, bickering, and a bit of lunacy. I still find the religion forum interesting, I don't comment all that often anymore but do enjoy reading some of the topics.

I left the church for the same reasons you did. I still won't step foot in a CoC.

 

The only group of people that Jesus openly rebuked were religious people. I don't blame you for leaving, it's also why I rarely post here. The people who can or want to actually carry on a discussion are few and far between.

 

My advice, ignore what people tell you and go straight to the source.

 

I'd also recommend a few books. "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller. It's his personal account of being raised in a fundamental church, escaping it and becoming an atheist, and what led him to discover Christianity.

 

Also, "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. He very eloquently explains exactly what Christianity is all about.

 

"Is God Just A Human Invention?" by Sean McDowell and Jonathan Morrow. It does a great job of answering many of the questions posed here about the existence of God.

 

Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by NashBama:

I left the church for the same reasons you did. I still won't step foot in a CoC.

 

The only group of people that Jesus openly rebuked were religious people. I don't blame you for leaving, it's also why I rarely post here. The people who can or want to actually carry on a discussion are few and far between.

 

My advice, ignore what people tell you and go straight to the source.

 

I'd also recommend a few books. "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller. It's his personal account of being raised in a fundamental church, escaping it and becoming an atheist, and what led him to discover Christianity.

 

Also, "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. He very eloquently explains exactly what Christianity is all about.

 

"Is God Just A Human Invention?" by Sean McDowell and Jonathan Morrow. It does a great job of answering many of the questions posed here about the existence of God.

 

Hope that helps.

=========

It sure can't hurt.

Originally Posted by NashBama:

I left the church for the same reasons you did. I still won't step foot in a CoC.

 

The only group of people that Jesus openly rebuked were religious people. I don't blame you for leaving, it's also why I rarely post here. The people who can or want to actually carry on a discussion are few and far between.

 

My advice, ignore what people tell you and go straight to the source.

 

I'd also recommend a few books. "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller. It's his personal account of being raised in a fundamental church, escaping it and becoming an atheist, and what led him to discover Christianity.

 

Also, "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. He very eloquently explains exactly what Christianity is all about.

 

"Is God Just A Human Invention?" by Sean McDowell and Jonathan Morrow. It does a great job of answering many of the questions posed here about the existence of God.

 

Hope that helps.

__________________

Ah, Nash, now you've done it.  Expect old Bill to tell you why you aren't a real Christian.  I'm going to go ahead and punch your ticket on the train to hell.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by NashBama:

I left the church for the same reasons you did. I still won't step foot in a CoC.

 

The only group of people that Jesus openly rebuked were religious people. I don't blame you for leaving, it's also why I rarely post here. The people who can or want to actually carry on a discussion are few and far between.

 

My advice, ignore what people tell you and go straight to the source.

 

I'd also recommend a few books. "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller. It's his personal account of being raised in a fundamental church, escaping it and becoming an atheist, and what led him to discover Christianity.

 

Also, "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. He very eloquently explains exactly what Christianity is all about.

 

"Is God Just A Human Invention?" by Sean McDowell and Jonathan Morrow. It does a great job of answering many of the questions posed here about the existence of God.

 

Hope that helps.

__________________

Ah, Nash, now you've done it.  Expect old Bill to tell you why you aren't a real Christian.  I'm going to go ahead and punch your ticket on the train to hell.

______________________

 

If Bill thinks I'm going to Hell, then I must be doing something right.

Hi Chick,

 

Personally, I will be sorry if you do leave the Religion Forum.  I hope you change your mind.

 

You tell us, "Everybody has an opinion......the Bible says this, the Scripture means that -- this/that church is a cult -- you need to find God & do this, this, & this.  Nothing can be learned when everyone has different opinions as to what the Bible & scriptures mean."

 

Actually, we can learn from different opinions.  First, we must accept that there are certain Biblical beliefs which are essential to being a Christian and cannot be compromised.  These include (1) the deity of Christ, (2) one God manifested, i.e., revealed, in three separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and (3) the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired Written Word of God (versus Jesus being the Living Word of God) and is the sole authority for Christian living and salvation.

 

Those we cannot compromise.  However, many other issues we can and should discuss -- for they help us to more fully understand the entire Word of God, all the Bible.  In Acts 17:11, the apostle Paul tells us to test what we are being told -- against Scripture.  In other words, he is telling us to be good Bereans, test one another against the highest authority, God's Written Word.

 

Will we often disagree?  You bet!  But, in searching the Scripture to test what we have been told -- we learn and we grow.  I know that in the last five years on the Religion Forum, I have learned a lot -- and, I have gotten to know Scripture much better. 

 

For a long time I have had trouble memorizing Scripture verses.  I could find the verses I wanted -- but, could not memorize them.   Now, in our Bible studies, I find myself able to refer to specific Scripture verses with no problem.  In other words, through usage, through "testing against Scripture" -- I have done what I could not do before -- memorize a lot of Scripture.

 

One of the ladies in our Wednesday Bible Study said today, "It would be nice if we all were on the same page, if we all agreed upon all Scripture.  But, that will not happen until He comes again?"

 

And, that is true.  We will always have differences of opinion, different interpretations of some aspects of Scripture.  It would be nice if we could go back to the Day of Pentecost 33 AD church and be as unified as they were then.   But, as long as we stay faithful and do not compromise our essential Christian beliefs -- one day the real Unifier, Jesus Christ, will come again and rule the earth for 1000 years, His Millennial Reign, from the throne of David in Jerusalem, the perfect, and the only acceptable theocracy.

 

But, to Chick, and to all our Religion Forum Friends -- let's have civil discussions, let's have civil agreements and civil disagreements -- so that we ALL can learn and grow in Biblical knowledge -- and, hopefully, in the grace of God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

2 Timothy 2-15

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  • 2 Timothy 2-15
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

 

-- let's have civil discussions, let's have civil agreements and civil disagreements --

 ===================================

I like the discussions you and what8 have between just you two.

It's like laurel and hardy trying to climb out of a half full spittoon.

I'm not sure which one of you is the more stupid.

 

 

Bill says:

 

"But, to Chick, and to all our Religion Forum Friends -- let's have civil discussions, let's have civil agreements and civil disagreements -- so that we ALL can learn and grow in Biblical knowledge -- and, hopefully, in the grace of God."

 

Isn't that funny? That is what the REST of us have been doing all along, while Bill has been accusing those who disagree with him of NOT being Christians.

 

Contendah disagrees with OSAS and Bill comes back telling Contendah that he said he is not a sinner - even though NOWHERE in his post was that said or implied.

 

Skppy wishes everyone a Happy Easter by posting scripture, and nothing BUT scripture, and Bill calls him a cultist.

 

Gbrk has requested that Bill stop using his ID and posts on his Facebook page because Bill twists what people say and then lies about it. Bill won't respond.

 

And I, well I have told him repeatedly that his way of talking to people is driving them away, and for that I am told that Bill questions my Christianity.

 

Bill wants us all to be civil to HIM, but he refuses to be civil to any of us. How about a nice snappy cartoon in your reply to this one, Bill? You know, maybe a woman stuffing Kleenex in her bra - remember that? Now THAT was civil...NOT!

 

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

 


Actually, we can learn from different opinions.  First, we must accept that there are certain Biblical beliefs which are essential to being a Christian and cannot be compromised.  These include (1) the deity of Christ, (2) one God manifested, i.e., revealed, in three separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and (3) the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired Written Word of God (versus Jesus being the Living Word of God) and is the sole authority for Christian living and salvation.

 

__________________

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.  The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.

quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,  Actually, we can learn from different opinions.  First, we must accept that there are certain Biblical beliefs which are essential to being a Christian and cannot be compromised.  These include (1) the deity of Christ, (2) one God manifested, i.e., revealed, in three separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and (3) the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired Written Word of God (versus Jesus being the Living Word of God) and is the sole authority for Christian living and salvation.

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.  The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.


Hi Crusty,

 

Let's make sure we are on the same page.   You tell us you are a Christian believer.   But, you believe that a person can be a Christian believer while still declaring:

 

1.  The Bible is of no use to Christians and should be ignored.

 

2.   Belief in the deity of Christ and the Trinity -- smacks of cultism.

 

So, you are saying that a person can be a Christian believer -- and, NOT believe that Jesus Christ is deity and NOT believe in the Trinity.    Do I have this correct?  

 

The name "Christian" means Christ Follower.   If Jesus Christ is NOT deity, if He is NOT God -- then, who are you following?   And, why?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,  Actually, we can learn from different opinions.  First, we must accept that there are certain Biblical beliefs which are essential to being a Christian and cannot be compromised.  These include (1) the deity of Christ, (2) one God manifested, i.e., revealed, in three separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and (3) the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired Written Word of God (versus Jesus being the Living Word of God) and is the sole authority for Christian living and salvation.

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.  The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.


Hi Crusty,

 

Let's make sure we are on the same page.   You tell us you are a Christian believer.   But, you believe that a person can be a Christian believer while still declaring:

 

1.  The Bible is of no use to Christians and should be ignored.

 

2.   Belief in the deity of Christ and the Trinity -- smacks of cultism.

 

So, you are saying that a person can be a Christian believer -- and, NOT believe that Jesus Christ is deity and NOT believe in the Trinity.    Do I have this correct?  

 

The name "Christian" means Christ Follower.   If Jesus Christ is NOT deity, if He is NOT God -- then, who are you following?   And, why?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

_______________________________________________________________

There goes Bill, distorting what another poster has said yet AGAIN! If the REST of us understood what Crusty has been saying, why is it the Bill can't? Is he really challenged when it comes to reading comprehension, or is he lying to suit his own purposes? Or both?

 

Originally Posted by O No!:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,  Actually, we can learn from different opinions.  First, we must accept that there are certain Biblical beliefs which are essential to being a Christian and cannot be compromised.  These include (1) the deity of Christ, (2) one God manifested, i.e., revealed, in three separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and (3) the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired Written Word of God (versus Jesus being the Living Word of God) and is the sole authority for Christian living and salvation.

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.  The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.


Hi Crusty,

 

Let's make sure we are on the same page.   You tell us you are a Christian believer.   But, you believe that a person can be a Christian believer while still declaring:

 

1.  The Bible is of no use to Christians and should be ignored.

 

2.   Belief in the deity of Christ and the Trinity -- smacks of cultism.

 

So, you are saying that a person can be a Christian believer -- and, NOT believe that Jesus Christ is deity and NOT believe in the Trinity.    Do I have this correct?  

 

The name "Christian" means Christ Follower.   If Jesus Christ is NOT deity, if He is NOT God -- then, who are you following?   And, why?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

_______________________________________________________________

There goes Bill, distorting what another poster has said yet AGAIN! If the REST of us understood what Crusty has been saying, why is it the Bill can't? Is he really challenged when it comes to reading comprehension, or is he lying to suit his own purposes? Or both?

  ===============

I wouldn't think both, he just wants to suit his own purposes.

 

Originally Posted by O No!:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,  Actually, we can learn from different opinions.  First, we must accept that there are certain Biblical beliefs which are essential to being a Christian and cannot be compromised.  These include (1) the deity of Christ, (2) one God manifested, i.e., revealed, in three separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and (3) the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired Written Word of God (versus Jesus being the Living Word of God) and is the sole authority for Christian living and salvation.

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.  The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.


Hi Crusty,

 

Let's make sure we are on the same page.   You tell us you are a Christian believer.   But, you believe that a person can be a Christian believer while still declaring:

 

1.  The Bible is of no use to Christians and should be ignored.

 

2.   Belief in the deity of Christ and the Trinity -- smacks of cultism.

 

So, you are saying that a person can be a Christian believer -- and, NOT believe that Jesus Christ is deity and NOT believe in the Trinity.    Do I have this correct?  

 

The name "Christian" means Christ Follower.   If Jesus Christ is NOT deity, if He is NOT God -- then, who are you following?   And, why?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

_______________________________________________________________

There goes Bill, distorting what another poster has said yet AGAIN! If the REST of us understood what Crusty has been saying, why is it the Bill can't? Is he really challenged when it comes to reading comprehension, or is he lying to suit his own purposes? Or both?

  ===============

I wouldn't think both, he just wants to suit his own purposes.

 

quote:   Originally Posted by O No!:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,  Actually, we can learn from different opinions.  First, we must accept that there are certain Biblical beliefs which are essential to being a Christian and cannot be compromised.  These include (1) the deity of Christ, (2) one God manifested, i.e., revealed, in three separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and (3) the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired Written Word of God (versus Jesus being the Living Word of God) and is the sole authority for Christian living and salvation.

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.  The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.


Hi Crusty,

 

Let's make sure we are on the same page.   You tell us you are a Christian believer.   But, you believe that a person can be a Christian believer while still declaring:

 

1.  The Bible is of no use to Christians and should be ignored.

 

2.   Belief in the deity of Christ and the Trinity -- smacks of cultism.

 

So, you are saying that a person can be a Christian believer -- and, NOT believe that Jesus Christ is deity and NOT believe in the Trinity.    Do I have this correct?  

 

The name "Christian" means Christ Follower.   If Jesus Christ is NOT deity, if He is NOT God -- then, who are you following?   And, why?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,  Bill

 

There goes Bill, distorting what another poster has said yet AGAIN!  If the REST of us understood what Crusty has been saying, why is it the Bill can't?  Is he really challenged when it comes to reading comprehension, or is he lying to suit his own purposes?  Or both?


Hi O,

 

Since you seem to know better what Crusty was saying -- will you please help me understand?

 

Crusty wrote:

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.

 

I read that as Crusty telling me that a person can be a Christian believer -- and not believe in the deity of Christ, not believe in the Trinity, and not believe the Bible to be the Written Word of God and the sole authority for salvation and Christian living.

 

Then, Crusty wrote:

 

The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.

 

Here, I read this as Crusty telling me that believing in the Bible -- smacks of fundamentalist cultism.

 

Is that your understanding of his statements above?  If not, will you please explain to me what Crusty really meant.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Crusty,

 

Let's make sure we are on the same page.   You tell us you are a Christian believer.   But, you believe that a person can be a Christian believer while still declaring:

 

1.  The Bible is of no use to Christians and should be ignored.

 

2.   Belief in the deity of Christ and the Trinity -- smacks of cultism.

 

So, you are saying that a person can be a Christian believer -- and, NOT believe that Jesus Christ is deity and NOT believe in the Trinity.    Do I have this correct?  

 

The name "Christian" means Christ Follower.   If Jesus Christ is NOT deity, if He is NOT God -- then, who are you following?   And, why?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

_____________________.

1) Show me where I have said the Bible is of no use and should be ignored.  You are lying again.

 

2) Show me where I have said that belief in the deity of Christ and the Trinity smacks of cultism.  You are lying again.

 

3) No you do not have it correct.

 

4) Ridiculous question posited on a false premise.  No answer required.

 

Have yet another blissed day, Bill.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
 

Bill, my response in green.
Hi O,

 

Since you seem to know better what Crusty was saying -- will you please help me understand?

 

Crusty wrote:

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.

 

I read that as Crusty telling me that a person can be a Christian believer -- and not believe in the deity of Christ, not believe in the Trinity, and not believe the Bible to be the Written Word of God and the sole authority for salvation and Christian living.

 

I said nothing of the sort.  Your reading comprehension is lacking.  I'll try to use small words.  You post ten "essential" beliefs for all Christians.  You do this over and over.  These beliefs are not "essential" and most Christians do NOT believe all of your "essential" beliefs.  They are not essential for Christian belief.


 I have said nothing about the Trinity, and I haven't said anything about the deity of Christ. 


You are correct, the Bible is not the "Written Word of God" as you interpret that phrase.  It can't be taken literally.  If it is to be taken literally, then the god in the Bible is a false god, since the universe had its beginnings billions of years ago, and man and animals have been around for much, much longer than 6k years.  Even though you hate the Catholics, you really should read some Thomas Aquinas.  He and the Scholastics solved your problem centuries ago.

 

Then, Crusty wrote:

 

The third just tags you as an Bibliolatrist and many of the others smack of fundamentalist cultism.

 

Here, I read this as Crusty telling me that believing in the Bible -- smacks of fundamentalist cultism.

 

Once again, complete lack of reading comprehension.  Or is it?  My statement is very simple.  Your third "essential" belief proves you to be a Bibliolatrist.  That is a person who worships the Bible.  In your case, since you have no relationship with God, you try and make up for it through the worship of the Bible.


The second part of my sentence talks about the other seven "essential" beliefs.  I do this in a non-specific (sorry had to use a big word here, look it up in the dictionary) way.  Many of those "essential" beliefs are solely those of fundamentalists.  The fundamentalist belief system you adhere to is very much a cult.  It does not represent mainstream Christianity.  Most of your "essential" beliefs are arbitrary (sorry, another big word), few are essential, and several are ridiculous. 

 

Just for fun lets look at your first "essential" belief.  I don't believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are persons at all.  And I certainly don't believe the Holy Spirit is a ghost like creature, person, or supernatural being, as you obviously do.  Your love of the KJV fails you here.  The bad translation has you going down the wrong path completely.

Is that your understanding of his statements above?  If not, will you please explain to me what Crusty really meant.

 

ONo is right.  You are the only person around here that doesn't get what I said - well Extra probably doesn't, and Gingee is probably working up a good street corner rant for me.  Of course I don't believe for one second you don't understand.  You are once again drawing from page 2 of the Fundy Handbook: Purposeful Misdirection and Distortion.

 

 

Thank you for your help.

 

You are welcome.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Crusty,

 

You tell me, "I said nothing of the sort.  Your reading comprehension is lacking.  I'll try to use small words.  You post ten "essential" beliefs for all Christians.  You do this over and over.  These beliefs are not "essential" and most Christians do NOT believe all of your "essential" beliefs.  They are not essential for Christian belief."

 

This is what I have posted many times as the Essential Christian Beliefs:

 

1. The Deity of Jesus Christ -- God incarnate -- fully a man; yet, fully God.
2. The Trinity -- God eternally existing; manifested (revealed) in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
3.  The Bible -- Is the inspired Written Word of God and is the sole authority for Christian faith, salvation, and our Christian life.
4. Salvation by Grace -- By grace you are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.
5. The Resurrection of Christ -- He rose from the dead, that we may also be resurrected into eternal life.
6. The Gospel -- The birth, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ according to Scripture.
7.  Heaven and Hell -- Both are real places and are the only two eternal destinations available to all mankind.

 

And, you wrote earlier:

 

These three "Biblical beliefs", particularly the third one, along with the seven others that you regularly posit as "essential" are no such thing.

 

Yes, the seven above are what I have been posting.  I have saved them in my archive -- and when I need to post them again, I just copy/paste from my own archive.

 

The first three are the same that I posted in this discussion earlier -- His deity, the Trinity, and the Bible.  And, from the way I read your statement -- these three plus the others I post (all SEVEN shown above) are not essential to being a Christian believer, a follower of Christ.

 

So, please tell us which ones are not true -- and which ones are not necessary to be a Christian believer.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, they would probably say that belief in the bible as the ultimate authority and inspired word of God is not necessary. Yet if you discard that, what do you have that even points you to Christ, and what do you have to follow? Everybody will make up their own rules that suits them. That's not following Christ, but it is following their own way.

 

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

 

Matthew 15:8-9 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

Mark 12:24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?

 

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

 

Luke 24:32 And they said to one another, "Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?"

 

Titus 1: 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

 

There seems to be a lot of resentment in this forum against bible believing Christians. Chances are if many in this forum were living in the time of Christ, they would have mocked him for being a bible believing fundamenatist. If they don't want to accept the bible, then what will they accept? Even Jesus was devoted to the scriptures. At 12 years old he knew the scriptures so well that he astonished the teachers with his questions and understanding. Jesus used the scriptures against Satan when he was tempted by him. He didn't consider it to be simply the opinion of men. He quoted the prophet Isaiah when he first revealed that he was the Christ. Jesus had angry words for those that preferred their traditions and commandments of men and rejected the writings of Moses and the Prophets. Jesus enlighted his disciples after his resurrection by quoting scriptures that applied to him.  If not for the scriptures we would not know that Jesus died and rose again from the grave, and we would not accept him as Savior and Lord. Jesus continued to reveal God's truth concerning himself in scripture to his disciples and any who would hear him. If Christ's disciples had not believed the scriptures then how in the world could Jesus have opened their eyes and enlightened them about who he was? If we deny the bible as revealing the words of Christ, then how are we to hear his voice and follow him?

 

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. How can that be if they refuse to hear his words and the words of his Apostles? Who will reveal the voice of Christ to them? Will Christ have us all going in different directions and choosing our own course? Or should we hear the words he has spoken and follow him?

 

if people don't believe the gospels and allow the New Testament to guide them, then look at the Old Testament. Jesus believed it and quoted it often. But I prefer to look at the New Testament that reveals God's gracious gift of salvation more fully and clearly to all.

 

However, if these people want to remain blind, then let them follow the blind into the ditch.

 

Bill, there comes a time when you are casting pearls to swine. There are a lot on this forum that are more interested in how they can mock and belittle you than they are in hearing and the learning the truth.

Last edited by what4

Bill, you realize that while the Gregorian calendar is much like our judicial system--as good as it gets tho still imperfect when it comes to our day count, years were a little less so? Maybe four or so? Christ may have been born in what would commonly be considered 4 BC (possibly 3 BC), so the Day of Pentecost 33 AD is a rather meaningless, misleading term.

quote:  Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Bill, you realize that while the Gregorian calendar is much like our judicial system--as good as it gets tho still imperfect when it comes to our day count, years were a little less so?  Maybe four or so? Christ may have been born in what would commonly be considered 4 BC (possibly 3 BC), so the Day of Pentecost 33 AD is a rather meaningless, misleading term.


Hi Firenze,

 

That is true.  We cannot say with certainty the year Christ was born; thus we cannot say with certainty the year He was crucified, i.e., the beginning of the Church Era.  The actual year could vary 4, possibly even 6, years.  However, just as we have accepted December 25th as the day we will celebrate His birthday; most folks just accept 33 AD as the year He was crucified and rose again.

 

With both occasions -- it is not the day or year which is important -- but, the events which we know did happen.  Those events changed the world -- for the better.  Because of those events we have the Christian faith and eternal life for all who will, by the grace of God, through faith -- believe and receive His "free gift."

 

Also, the Jewish calendar in the days of Christ is different from our calendar -- having only 360 days instead of 365 days.

 

Thank you for bringing this thought to the forum.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
one day the real Unifier, Jesus Christ, will come again and rule the earth for 1000 years,

=====================

 

2000 years and still counting . . .  I don't supposed it would help to remind you that the Disciples thought Jesus would return in their days. I guess Jesus was just kidding them, right?

Origninally Posted by What4:

Bill, there comes a time when you are casting pearls to swine. There are a lot on this forum that are more interested in how they can mock and belittle you than they are in hearing and the learning the truth.

_________________________________________________

 

This is a quote from my previous post. I want to clarify what I meant. I didn't mean to put the emphasis on hearing Bill, but rather on hearing the word of God that he often quotes and refers others to. There is no higher authority than the words of Christ in the Holy Bible. We can sometimes have disagreements on what the bible is saying. But our ultimate aim should be to go to the bible first and foremost to hear and understand the truth of what Jesus Christ has said, and allow it to be our ultimate guide and authority in all matters that partain to the Christian faith. And there is no better place to hear and know what Jesus and his chosen Apostles had to say than by going directly to the bible that records what they had to say? Those who give more authority to their own opinion, or to their particular church doctrine, or to any spirit or self-proclaimed prophet, or to any man's teaching over  what the bible says is in grave danger. We should listen to God when he said, This is my beloved Son. Hear him!

 

 

Mark 9:4-7 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah" because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid. And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!"



 

God will never contradict himself.Those who are Jesus Christ's children will hear and follow him, and will not listen to or follow another who contradicts what Jesus has already clearly said.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

I came to this Religion forum to possibly find some answer's & learn something, from Christians & Atheist alike.

 

 

Everybody has an opinion......the Bible says this, the scripture means that, this/that church is a cult, you need to find God & do this, this & this. I don't see the advantage (others may see it too) in coming here anymore since it's turned into a fighting ring, arguing with each other, what this or that scripture means, & name calling.

Nothing can be learned when everyone has different opinions as to what  the Bible & scriptures

________________________________________________________________________

 

Chick, I'm not sure what it is you're looking for. But if you're looking for God, don't go to the atheists. They aren't looking for him. They're looking in the opposite direction.

 

You refer to the bible. Again, why would you listen to atheists if you are concerned about what the bible says? They could care less. All they are looking for is a reason to discredit it. If you really want to know what it says, then go to the source and find out for yourself. If you have questions about it, then pull up a free Mathew Henry Commentary off the internet, or download a free app that has the bible and commentaries in one package, that allows you to do searches and intensive study. But if you go to men to find out their opinion on what the bible says, make sure you go to those who believe it is true and use it as their ultimate guide in following God.

 

Hear what Jesus had to say in the word, and don't ever try to dillute his meaning. If you are sincere in finding out the truth, then God can reveal it to you. But you must allow Christ's words to become the most important thing to you. You cannot mix man's words with Christ's words and come up with an acceptable balance that you like. Either give your undivided attention to God and to his Son Jesus Christ, and hear his words and the words of Christ's apostles, or go to the atheists for your inspiration. You can't do both. You need to figure out what it is you're looking for.

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

You refer to the bible. Again, why would you listen to atheists if you are concerned about what the bible says? They could care less. All they are looking for is a reason to discredit it.


------------------------

It "discredits" itself.

 

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Only to those who want to twist its meaning.

 

Originally Posted by what4:
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

I came to this Religion forum to possibly find some answer's & learn something, from Christians & Atheist alike.

 

 

Everybody has an opinion......the Bible says this, the scripture means that, this/that church is a cult, you need to find God & do this, this & this. I don't see the advantage (others may see it too) in coming here anymore since it's turned into a fighting ring, arguing with each other, what this or that scripture means, & name calling.

Nothing can be learned when everyone has different opinions as to what  the Bible & scriptures

________________________________________________________________________

 

Chick, I'm not sure what it is you're looking for. But if you're looking for God, don't go to the atheists. They aren't looking for him. They're looking in the opposite direction.

 

You refer to the bible. Again, why would you listen to atheists if you are concerned about what the bible says? They could care less. All they are looking for is a reason to discredit it. If you really want to know what it says, then go to the source and find out for yourself. If you have questions about it, then pull up a free Mathew Henry Commentary off the internet, or download a free app that has the bible and commentaries in one package, that allows you to do searches and intensive study. But if you go to men to find out their opinion on what the bible says, make sure you go to those who believe it is true and use it as their ultimate guide in following God.

 

Hear what Jesus had to say in the word, and don't ever try to dillute his meaning. If you are sincere in finding out the truth, then God can reveal it to you. But you must allow Christ's words to become the most important thing to you. You cannot mix man's words with Christ's words and come up with an acceptable balance that you like. Either give your undivided attention to God and to his Son Jesus Christ, and hear his words and the words of Christ's apostles, or go to the atheists for your inspiration. You can't do both. You need to figure out what it is you're looking for.

 

____________________________

 

I agree. Read the bible for yourself and don't dilute it. More people have become atheist by reading the bible for themselves than listening to their pastor's version.

 

That's one of the reasons I don't understand why so many Christians try and distance themselves from the Westboro group. As far as I can tell they are taking the bible as literal as anyone can. Why are they not the real "Christians"?

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
 

That's one of the reasons I don't understand why so many Christians try and distance themselves from the Westboro group. As far as I can tell they are taking the bible as literal as anyone can. Why are they not the real "Christians"?

___________________________________________________________________

 

The Westboro group has no real understanding of God's truth. They only quote a few scriptures that justifies their hate, and ignore the rest that reveals his mercy and love. They are so far off base that it's a wonder that anybody would want to be a part of their group. Those who follow corrupt pastors and leaders are like the blind leading the blind. Those who are true children of God will not allow someone to dictate what they should believe, but they will allow God's word and his Holy Spirit to guide them into understanding.

 

Just like you, the devil has no respect for scripture or for God. The devil quotes scripture and interprets it to suit his needs and uses it to suit his purpose. The devil will point to those who abuse and misuse God's word and say follow them, rather than point to Jesus Christ and say hear his words and follow him. That's exactly what you are doing.

quote:   Originally Posted by what4:

Bill, they would probably say that belief in the bible as the ultimate authority and inspired word of God is not necessary.  Yet if you discard that, what do you have that even points you to Christ, and what do you have to follow?  Everybody will make up their own rules that suits them.  That's not following Christ, but it is following their own way.


Hi What4,

 

You have perfectly described the philosophy of Relativism.  Relative Moral Values, i.e., Relativism, teaches exactly that -- each person decides what moral values he/she will follow.  Basically, this teaching tells us, "If it feels right to you, it is right!"

 

In other words, if stealing, adultery, cheating, killing, homosexuality and all other forms of aberrant behavior, or whatever -- feels right to you, it is right.

 

The secular, non-believing world cannot tolerate Positive Moral Values found in the Bible -- because this system of values says "No" to them.  "No, you can't do that!" -- "No, you should not do that!" -- "No, you will be punished if you do that!" -- "No, that is not right!" -- and so on.  And, "No" has no part in Relative Moral Values.

 

Basically, Relativism is a throwback to childhood, i.e., "If I want it -- it is mine!"  

 

I believe the Property Rights Of Children poster shown below pretty well clarifies Relativism.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Child Property Rights

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  • Child Property Rights

Bill,   You have said many times here, before, for a forum member to bring to your attention ANYONE that YOU have offended and damaged.  ANYONE that you are responsible for running away from Christ or driving them away.  THIS VERY PERSON .. SEMI SEMI SEMI SEMI .. Bill SEMI is one of those many you have effected in a most NEGATIVE way, yet you refuse to acknowledge it, you refuse rebuke by fellow Christians who are just concerned that you are doing HARM to the Cause of Christ.  

 

You have Baptist, and most every other denomination, Catholics, Atheist, and most anyone else tell you that you offend people and that you do so in a negative way.  That you are condescending toward others and Judgmental in a "I'm better than you" way as if you can instruct someone else when you have many time proven yourself to be fallible and just as flawed as everyone else yet you put yourself on a pedestal as if you have no sin or cannot sin.  Various Christians, all well meaning, have tried to be subtle in their approach but when you ignored a soft, constructive voice, many began yelling to get your attention.  Their concern was they saw their Savior's cause, the cause of Christ being harmed by you.  Semi came looking for answers (her own testimony) yet because of your approach and your methods and your unrelenting judgmental, condescending approach you totally ruined and blocked any potential positive thing you might have contributed or said.  

 

SEMI is one answer to one you have offended, personally, and ran off and she is not the first.  As I said, some of us tried lovingly to instruct you as to how we saw your destructive methods, being negative as in relating to others on the forum but in turn you then turned on those who tried to instruct you or share their worries as to your destructive methods.   You blindly did not care you blindly went on not caring for you believed yourself to be right yet there was ample proof that you were wrong.  

 

Now you think you are doing good, making a difference, but everyone or maybe 98% of those here only see hypocrisy and a judgmental person who believes themselves superior to all.  Bill your message is no longer valid or for your message, your testimony and witness is so convoluted by your own actions on this forum, your deceit toward others and your failure to listen and have dialog with people.  You say you are here to defend the gospel but you do not defend the gospel you do not Listen, you do not dialog, you do not debate what you do is preach and are deaf to anyone else that either disagrees with you or attempts to correct you.  

 

I truly pray that there is not a lost soul out there that is your responsibility.  You may not believe there is but at this point the best that could be stated, at least by me, is that it is questionable and all because you fail to listen, you fail to consider that just possibly your methods are wrong or negative and harm Christ message.  Christ lovingly saving message cannot get through your own personal boasting of Bill's Gospel.  You leave no room for the Holy Spirit to work you feel and seem to believe you must usurp the ministry of God's Holy Spirit by convicting every forum member of their sins, as you see them, or by judging them as cults, heretics or unbelievers.  You not only are using poor psychology but you are not using the techniques and instructions that Christ left for us to use as an example.  SEMI ... Bill    SEMI is one you have harmed and closed to your own message for your actions, your methods and your own refusal to have dialog with her has caused more harm than good.    She may not be here to say it but I guarantee you that at least 99% of Semi's reason for leaving this Religion forum is your own self and your own actions.  Please reconsider your methods before you are responsible for losing more.  If I am wrong I will be the first to apologize to you and retract my personal opinion however one universal thing I think you will find that Christians and non-Christians will agree on is that no one listens to your message any more because your actions and your own methods far outweigh what you are trying to say.  The example that you are being and representing is what people find offensive and negative about the Church and why they turn from wanting to even hear about God or Christ.  


IF I am wrong please show me where and how I am wrong?  But Bill you have not me to answer to but you should consider carefully what it would feel like if you had to answer to Christ for one lost soul that God's Holy Spirit was attempting to reach yet your own personal/fleshly actions got in the way and allowed Satan an inroad to harden their heart or overshadow the message.  Or are you claiming some kind of divinity and special appointed power that somehow none of the rest of us see or realize?  Are you claiming infallibility Bill?  If not why do you continue to act and post as if you are?

 
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Catholics, Atheist, and most anyone else tell you that you offend people and that you do so in a negative way.

______________________________________________________________

 

Hey gbrk,

 

Haven't you noticied that bible believing fundamentalist Christians aren't generally liked by Catholics, atheists, heretics, and occultists? Have you ever noticed how atheists often attack and belittle and intentionally OFFEND those that debate them? Is this one of those it takes one to know one cases? Your accusation may be true but I honestly don't trust some of the witnesses you have included in your number. I've seen some respectable Catholics, but I've also seen one I have no respect for whatsoever. What I'm getting at is why include some as your witnesses who are just as guilty as you claim the accused is, and are prejudiced and would have interior motives for destroying his character. You really hurt your case when you included atheists and most anyone else in your number.

 

Originally Posted by what4:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Catholics, Atheist, and most anyone else tell you that you offend people and that you do so in a negative way.

______________________________________________________________

 

Hey gbrk,

 

Haven't you noticied that bible believing fundamentalist Christians aren't generally liked by Catholics, atheists, heretics, and occultists? Have you ever noticed how atheists often attack and belittle and intentionally OFFEND those that debate them? Is this one of those it takes one to know one cases? Your accusation may be true but I honestly don't trust some of the witnesses you have included in your number. I've seen some respectable Catholics, but I've also seen one I have no respect for whatsoever. What I'm getting at is why include some as your witnesses who are just as guilty as you claim the accused is, and are prejudiced and would have interior motives for destroying his character. You really hurt your case when you included atheists and most anyone else in your number.

 

Originally Posted by what4:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Catholics, Atheist, and most anyone else tell you that you offend people and that you do so in a negative way.

______________________________________________________________

 

Hey gbrk,

 

Haven't you noticied that bible believing fundamentalist Christians aren't generally liked by Catholics, atheists, heretics, and occultists? Have you ever noticed how atheists often attack and belittle and intentionally OFFEND those that debate them? Is this one of those it takes one to know one cases? Your accusation may be true but I honestly don't trust some of the witnesses you have included in your number. I've seen some respectable Catholics, but I've also seen one I have no respect for whatsoever. What I'm getting at is why include some as your witnesses who are just as guilty as you claim the accused is, and are prejudiced and would have interior motives for destroying his character. You really hurt your case when you included atheists and most anyone else in your number.

 

While granted most Atheist that are on here have not expressed the desire to find Christ or Christianity and have been opposed at times who are you, Bill, or I to say that God's Holy Spirit is not working behind the scenes in someone's life?  Are YOU willing to willie nilly write off that God can be convicting a person all the while that person is belittling another Christian on the forum?  I'm not willing to make that judgment but if you feel comfortable doing so have at it for that is between you and the Holy Spirit.    I am also not critical of all fundamentalist for in many ways atheist are very fundamentalist in their own beliefs as are many others it just carries the negative connotation when applied to Christians.  Could be because of the way and method that many express themselves in a "holier than thou" attitude.


As for my accusations Bill has definitely used me and O NO two professing Christians (a brother and a sister in Christ) as examples on his personal Facebook, blogs or emails and in a negative way.  On here and there we are accused of something we have never done which is say he should not defend his faith.  Our rebuke of Bill has been solely along the lines of 1 Corinthians 5:12 where it is within rights for a Christian to rebuke and address a fellow Christian for activities which harm the cause of Christ.  If you have been on the forum any you surely have seen that Bill doesn't dialog with people he preaches AT people explaining how they are wrong and assuming some holier than thou, I cannot be wrong, attitude which is not the example that Christ laid out for us to interact with those seeking answers.  If I am wrong I will gladly accept you showing me where Christ interacted with the lost in this way.  So I can testify that Bill has taken what I have said and not only turned it into something it wasn't on here but worse took it to his private locations, all after and against my specific request that he not do so, and then posted it there.  I then, when it was revealed he did so, requested  many times, as a Christian Brother, that he remove it from there because I could not trust him to be faithful in representing it as I intended and posted it.  He would post partials rather than the whole context where he was being rebuked.  


Now my question to you is should not one Christian when he sees the actions of another effect that Christian's witness to others and do harm to the Cause and ministry of Christ attempt to make those problems known to the person who is doing them?   or    Do you maintain that Christ intended for us to minister to those "outside" the Church, non-Christians in a judgmental way pronouncing judgment upon them for what we, personally feel is there imperfections all the while our own imperfections are laid out before our peers?


As for Semi I can only take her words as meaning what they say.  She has many times stated to Bill that she could not believe a thing he says and was closed to anything he would try to say because of events or things that happened before I was even a member of the forum.  I have no reason to doubt semi when I see Bill doing very similar things today that she has accused him of doing in the past.  


My personal opinion, as a Christian and student of the Scriptures, is we are not taught to be condescending and come in an attitude of Judgment when we address and dialog with those seeking to know more about Christ.  Even when we dialog with those who come against us we never know what work and conviction that God's Holy Spirit is doing within that heart and without our knowledge.  We are, as Christians, to mimic Christ and attempt to do as He did and frankly I'm open for you to reveal to me that Christ methods were the same as Bill's on here.  I'm also open for you to show me, from Scriptures, where Bill is justified in taking something I, and O No have said then turning it around into something it isn't (that's frankly deceit) and acting as if we said what he said we did.  All O No and myself have tried to do was at first gently suggest to Bill that his methods were destructive to the Cause of Christ.  That did not succeed.  Also as a Christian Brother I have ask multiple times for Bill to retract all he printed and wrote about me that I considered deceptive and untruthful or not to post about me out of courtesy but have only been stonewalled and ignored. Where is that Biblical for a fundamentalist or even liberal Christian?


I gladly await your reply.

 

 

 
Originally Posted by what4:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
 

That's one of the reasons I don't understand why so many Christians try and distance themselves from the Westboro group. As far as I can tell they are taking the bible as literal as anyone can. Why are they not the real "Christians"?

___________________________________________________________________

 

The Westboro group has no real understanding of God's truth. They only quote a few scriptures that justifies their hate, and ignore the rest that reveals his mercy and love. They are so far off base that it's a wonder that anybody would want to be a part of their group. Those who follow corrupt pastors and leaders are like the blind leading the blind. Those who are true children of God will not allow someone to dictate what they should believe, but they will allow God's word and his Holy Spirit to guide them into understanding.

 

Just like you, the devil has no respect for scripture or for God. The devil quotes scripture and interprets it to suit his needs and uses it to suit his purpose. The devil will point to those who abuse and misuse God's word and say follow them, rather than point to Jesus Christ and say hear his words and follow him. That's exactly what you are doing.

_______________________________

 

I notice you took out the part where I said to read the bible and don't dilute it. I also said don't listen to what your pastor tells you it says.  I have read it. The Westboro bunch is just saying and doing what the bible tells them. I agree that they are a bunch of hate filed bigots and that they should not be listened to on any subject, however I don't understand why you would feel that way. They are doing what the good book says. Does the bible say that homosexuals are an abomination? Does it say that God will be the one to have vengeance on those that disobey his commandments? That is their message as well. Whats your problem with them spreading the word of God?

 

I wish that all Christians would stick to what they say they believe. Then we could all clearly see what they really are. Instead you and others like you talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say read the bible and don't dilute it, but be sure and only talk about the good parts. 

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