Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
:You've thought about religion. You are probably religious. You have weighed what you believe against what you know.
Religious or not everyone makes decisions based upon what they take in from the external whether it be from their own vision, hearing, whatever the source and develops opinions and makes decisions based upon that. Sometimes the information or data is incidental other times it is sought after due to a desire or need to know.
At what point do you reject intellectual integrity and embrace faith? When do you decide to reject demonstrable knowledge and cling to superstition?
What a loaded and biased statement which reveals so much about what you personally feel or what preconceptions you have about people of faith. Actually people that are not religious exercise faith each day and it is not necessarily tied to what personal information they have. We have faith we're safe in our homes meaning the electricians did their work correctly and we aren't going to burn up yet we don't have personal knowledge they did not make a mistake or that an appliance will not malfunction. We have faith that our vehicles are going to get us where we are going and keep us safe yet we don't have intimate knowledge that the vehicle was made without some serious flaw or that the bridges we are crossing are not going to collapse. Columbus had faith there was something past what he could see in front of his eyes and that he wouldn't drop off the end of the earth.
While I can see where some might consider religion to be the superstitious that is, again, your own biased preconceptions that effect that. To just out of hand reject anything that so many others claim and testify to just because you don't have the experiences that are described.
I cannot speak for Islam or other Religions but regarding Christianity and coming to Christ there is a time, that the unsaved, acts on total faith without certain 100% knowledge or evidence. That is not to say though that they do not have a reason to believe or suspect there is something else. The list is no where complete.
- (the inner spirit/soul) Man/Woman when they take the time and look inwardly and reflect on just who they are and why they are here often come to the conclusion that they are more than just atoms and molecules, water and dirt (flesh) but rather that there is something special and unique about their life and that there is something alive and special within them. In my opinion it is the utmost arrogance to think that we are all there is and that there is no greater or better than who and what we are.
- (Conviction) Often the person has a Special Spiritual Sense that they are not alone and that something greater than them is acting upon them and affecting them. I submit that God's Holy Spirit's conviction is very real and supernatural to those who experience it. While not everyone responds to conviction from the Holy Spirit some just write it off as something else or guilt feelings.
- (Miraculous event) Many times a person has a very intimate meeting with God via His Holy Spirit who intervenes in their life in a most miraculous way. For those whom this happens to they do not forget it and they cannot just dismiss it for they have experienced a miracle, for whatever reason. Often it opens their Spiritual eyes to understand and realize that a much greater world/realm is out there than we can just see and touch with our physical abilities.
- (innate curiosity) as a created being the natural intellect that a person has should be such that questions are always on the mind and the mind being open and not closed or limited should naturally wonder if there is something far beyond what their own limitations restricts them to. WE know the physical but we are capable of conceiving of much more and that alone stimulates a natural curiosity and thirst to know more. The Created seeks out it's creator.
- (information) At some point an intelligent person should question their own beliefs when they are in conflict with a great many throughout history. Men, past, have felt it of supreme importances to record and write down information that was imparted unto them. Men who claim that God impressed them to write what they did. The number of people throughout history who have testified that there is more out there and that they have reason to believe. The fact that so many have had such experiences and have recorded miraculous occurrences should have any intelligent person to wonder if they may have missed something and stir them to open their mind to possibilities that they hence were closed to in order to explain or verify that which so many others claim is legitimate.
There are lots of reasons that people, via faith, seek out that which they at times cannot reconcile intelligently. WE act on faith striving to find that which has since, to this point, been unobtainable.
And why? At some point, deep down, you know that virgins don't give birth. You know that people don't walk on water. You have a dozen reasons to know that the Great Flood never happened.
Yet you believe, or pretend to believe, in those unlikely and impossible things.
I hate to say it again but there are limitations to the human knowledge and intellect and we don't all know everything that there is to know. There is so much that is beyond human comprehension yet are we to restrict our potential and our limits to just what we can touch and see and personally verify? If so it is going to be a very small and limited world. Additionally there are miracles that happens everyday and have throughout history. Some may call it freak accidents but there are plenty of people, throughout history, that have attributed impossible things to a superior being, deity, or God.
Aso IF God is who many of us believe Him to be He is Spirit and not tied to physical laws or physical limitations. IF God could bring about physical from the Spiritual and create life and all around us then surely He is capable of what is considered impossible to mankind. What is impossible with man is always possible with God.
Is your satisfaction and confidence in your own intellectual integrity so weak? Do you have no confidence in the rational workings of your own mind?
DF
I can see where a person that has not met God and had that intimate connection with God might think God doesn't exist but saying it doesn't make it so. I can tell you that with ALL ASSURANCE GOD DOES EXIST and is REAL. I can say that because of meeting God's Holy Spirit through Salvation. There are millions now and throughout history who have stated and testified that their lives were CHANGED radically in the blink of an eye when God's Holy Spirit came upon them and into them, as Jesus Promised the New Testament believer would happen upon their salvation.
External evidence exist in total radical 180 degree changes in people that goes against reason or logic yet when ask for the reason for the change they attribute it to the Love of God who reveals Himself unto them and CHANGES THEM from the inside out. Those who never experienced this or who are to closed to have an open mind that there is more than their own selves might write it off to delusions or some other abnormality yet it is their own closed mind that limits their own potential and possibility. So often it seems their belief is more based in a statement like the following: It cannot be true because it didn't happen to me! Often though the person rejected their chance when it was there and given unto them. I fully believe that God's calling and conviction is a real and intimate thing but it's not a guarantee that it will remain with that individual. Many have developed a callous and hardened heart toward God. Thus the easiest rationale or justification that nothing is happening to you or another is that it frankly doesn't exist. The only comfort you can have is if you have a way of discounting another's testimony that threatens that thought by claiming it's a delusion or some product of a warped mind.
If you want to try and claim a person is not intelligent because they believe in more than just themselves is your own prerogative. But to state and claim that people who claim, testify, relate various experiences, that are very real and valid to them, upon which they know and experience changes from are not real or a delusion is more biased and preconceived than just or just being arrogant, going back to say it can't have happened because it hasn't happened to me or I haven't personally seen it.
For those who do not know Christ, who have not experienced the wonder and miraculous touch of God's Holy Spirit I continue to pray that God will provide one more chance and call unto you. Again saying it isn't so doesn't mean it's not but rather that you have not experienced it yet or that it hasn't applied to you. Arrogance is to expect that everything that can happen must have happened to me or that there is nothing that I don't know and make judgements about others intellect based upon your own self.
Again sorry to say but believers are not dumb, crazy, deranged, or delusional and there are and have been, throughout history, many greatly intelligent people Unfortunately though there are all too many who believe themselves to have reached perfection and in order to comfort themselves provide some negative result or outcome about someone they cannot explain or understand. I'm sorry but how very little you actually do know due to limiting yourself to only what you personally can touch, see, smell or feel. Even with that you do exercise faith for there is so much you cannot personally do and verify yet you cling to and attest is true thus you do put faith in others, human man rather than God. For instance there are many who place faith that Darwin was right about evolution and there are many other examples yet someone who places faith in a greater than can be comprehended God, they are the ones who are weak? Not buying it.
Also since I know you, and others, do not accept the Bible as a reference or source of valid data and information I did not include Biblical references to back up and justify many of the things I said but those scriptures and information is there and I'd be happy to pass along the scriptures but since I was responding to someone I know doesn't believe in the Scriptures I have, out of respect, held them back but Scripture reveals answers for mankind's questions and God provides the answers for Mankind's Soul and Spiritual Needs.
