Skip to main content

Southern Patriot and teyates you seem to be late to the discussion or didn't see when we over this earlier. I haven't the time or desire to repeat it again.

The price is not going down. The new discoveries in Iraq may help but much of the new drilling, especially off shore, whill be more costly to extract. Unless new refineries are built the amout in storage will remian the same. Local communties have a right to chose wether they want to live and riase their families in safe and clean environment.
Just as you have the same right.

The alternatives are safe and renewable sources. We can begin by continuing to develop the electric car and other alternatives. There is ebnough wind power to supply most of the US with electricty.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Southern Patriot and teyates you seem to be late to the discussion or didn't see when we over this earlier. I haven't the time or desire to repeat it again.

The price is not going down. The new discoveries in Iraq may help but much of the new drilling, especially off shore, whill be more costly to extract. Unless new refineries are built the amout in storage will remian the same. Local communties have a right to chose wether they want to live and riase their families in safe and clean environment.
Just as you have the same right.

The alternatives are safe and renewable sources. We can begin by continuing to develop the electric car and other alternatives. There is ebnough wind power to supply most of the US with electricty.

No you are repeating the same useless BS over and over. The elctric car is for the future, it is not an alternative here in 2008. They cannot proovide the power necessary to move freight over a long haul, namely getting your food to the table. It is perfectly fine to look for these type of energy sources for the future, but in the short term there has to be some relief if the economy is going to survive.
openeing the oil feilds now may not bring oil to the pump for 5-10 years, however it iwll be there, and the speculation market will calm itself, which is one reason the oil prices skyrocket every Friday (look for another jolt this Friday as well).
What you do not seem to understand is that there has to be a bridge between the now and the future, and there are many things out there available to us now that we are not being allowed to use.
Wind power is coming of age, but it is certainly not able to power most of the US as you say. That in and of itself is a ludicrous statement. The maintenance alone onthis wind turbine generators is very expensive, and they require batteries to store that energy (another potential chemically induced hazard to the environment).
You may think you have all the answers, but if you do you are looking at this with rose colored glasses.
Most of these refineries and piplines do manage to keep the enviroment safe, actually if the people who lived near them had their way they would build more, but instead "do gooders" such as yourself who think you know what is right for everyone else likes to stick your nose in their business.
The price is not going to go down, but it could be stabilized and opening the drilling fields, as well as ANWR, is a good start to that stabilization.
quote:
There is ebnough wind power to supply most of the US with electricty.


That's a lie.

My wife has an aunt who works for a big company in the alternate energy department. We actually talked about wind power. For one, there isn't anywhere near enough turbines to power the entire country. There is also difficult in distribution because wind is not consistent. One day you may get plenty of power, the next next to nothing. There are also issues with figuring out how to meter and bill electricity from wind power.

Plus, there are environmentalist groups who make it difficult to put up wind farms. It requires huge amounts of land and creates an eye sore with all the massive turbines.

By the way Pogo, where are you from again?
teyates, what kind of car do you drive ? Just wondering.

Well, actually the electric car IS here NOW. As most people know, GM marketed one during the early 90's , but pulled them off the lease market as soon as the Republicans came to power. (fact, but also food for thought).
Several companies do market an all electric car right now, and GM is putting one on the market in 2010.
I would like to add, that I am not opposed to adding supply, especilly from domestic sources. My problem is with the bumper-sticker mentality that believes that we can drill our way out of this. If you are old enough to remember the late 60's and early 70's the oil companies were running adds on TV that said "a country that runs on oil cannot afford to run out".About a year after those adds, came the Arab oil embargo, and much teeth gnashing like is going on now. (I can't believe the "shortages" then were not somewhat planned by big oil).
At any rate, as soon as gasoline topped one dollar a gallon, suddenly there was plenty of it. We were also told that when the Alaska pipe line gets finished, it wil help us get off of Arab oil. Well, along came Reagan, and un-did what Carter had started and so we went for another 20 years or so and started driving the most gas guzzeling machines we could buy. The Alaska pipeline came on line, and there wasn't so much as a blip in the price of gas.
Well , here we are now, with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth, with more promises that "if they would only let us.....".
If we are going to get off oil, we should start NOW, not keep waiting for some oil god to strike the ground and give us more to waste.

Another point you brought out was how to transport our food across the continent. Well, ever heard of trains? . Now , as Howard can tell us, trains up north run on electric from overhead wires. When it becomes viable to run that sort of train down here and out west, the RR will put up the infastructure and stop using diesel . (BTW, there are adds on the TV right now that say that they can move a ton of freight 400 miles on 1 gal of fuel. That's a lot more efficient than any other way we have of moving freight (my apologies to those in th trucking industry, but fact is fact).
NOw, as far as generating all that electricity that would be needed if we were to do things the smart way:
I think you are a little mis-informed on the wind turbines, but I will not take that up right now, except to say that there is at this time a goal to provide up to 20% of our electricity from wind. We SHOULD be building more nuclear plants, and I am sure that will happen as there are likely to be penalties on pollution. Clean coal technology is being studied and we still produce somem 80% of our electricity with coal the old fashoned way.
NOTE !!!!! We do NOT have an energy crisis in this country. Yes, we need more capacity, and yes we are building more, but what we have is a situation where our demand on oil, and the price we are willing to pay for the convenience of driving everywhere we go has created demand for a commodity at whatever price "they" want to charge.
We need to change that equation.
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark:
During the hurricane off Texas, 150 oil wells were destroyed without any major oil spill, same for the damaged refineries. The technology has increased exponentially. The left, is still stuck in the past with the rest of the dinosaurs.

BTW HOward, how is the price of gas affecting YOU ?
I believe you take the train to work and use Zip cars for general running around.
Why exactly , do you have a stick in this fire ? Seems to me you are doing the correct thing, and shouldn't care what the price of gas is .
excelman,

Yes, I take the Metro (subway) to work and for most of my errands. I use a Zipcar about once a month to shop in north Virginia and stock up on groceries (DC is short of supermarkets).

However, many Americans do not have access to public transportation. I'm for all our citizens.

GM is planning a plug-in hybrid called the Volt. Reportedly, it will travel 40-miles on a six hour charge (most prototypes only go 12-miles on a charge). A gas engine can kick in after for recharging giving 50 MPG for a 400 mile range. They plan 100,000 in 2010 and more after that. If it works and is economical, it represents a generational jump.

This is the type vehicle we need. Its a four passenger car, capable of long road trips, as well as, day-to-day commutes. Throw in hydtogen injection and one might get 75 MPG or more.

We will need more electriccal generation and some infrastructure changes -- easy recharge at homes, hotels, parking garages, etc. Extremely doable.
BTW HOward, how is the price of gas affecting YOU ?
I believe you take the train to work and use Zip cars for general running around.
Why exactly , do you have a stick in this fire ? Seems to me you are doing the correct thing, and shouldn't care what the price of gas is .[/QUOTE]

WE all pay the increased price to transport goods and the high price of oil is killing the economy. I hope hydrogen becomes the standard as it allows for greater driving distance and no oil. Either way electric or hydrogen is going to require greater electrical production.
Breeder reactors are the best source for electricity generation. As they produce power, they recharge spent rods, reducing nuclear waste considerably -- next best thing to a perpetual motion machine.

France and Norway produce most of their power with breeder reactor.

Hydrogen injection in a car is performed by vaporization of water in the vehicle. Greatly increases gas mileage.
Getting back on topic, here's an article with words from a major donor to Democrats.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/...05/26/cnsoros126.xml

Soros is a big hater of Bush, but even he lays a large part of the blame for the price of oil on speculators and not ol' demon-seed. Since the article does't have crayon drawings some people here won't grasp the fact that recessions and depressions are caused by speculators and not politcians under normal conditions. Sometimes business activity can be impeded by the shackles of socialist rules.
Last edited by Flatus the Ancient
excel,
Not that is is any of your business but I drive a four cylinder 35 mpg car. When I need to pull a trailer or move equipment however the little four cylinder, much like the elctric cars you speak of, will not do that. There are electric cars today, but the technology is not where it needs to be, it has to catch up, and GM and others have said they have a very good vehicle planned for 2010, well excel today is 2008. Food prices continue to skyrocket due to the demands put on the transporter. I have also heard of trains, but the infrastructure for electric trains is not in the South, where we live, so you can see my concern. My problem with the tree huggers is that they do not think one iota about the gap between now and the future. They want everything to suddenly cease and start in the new fashion, and it cannot happen.
Blaming Reagan for the problem with gas is ridiculous. Carter and his minions during the gas crisis made deals with the Saudis which guaranteed our continued dependence on oil. Gas prices have risen over the past 30 years, but at least there has been some to develop our economy , not like the lines present due the crisis of the 70's.
I assure you the average American will vote for the openeing of these fields. If the Dems know what is best for them, they will try and get on the bandwagon. Environmentalists may have had a lot of people's ears when gas was less than $2 a gallon, but you can bet they are not going to get a whole lot of compassion at the current prices. My fear is that there will be a backlash, and the disdain will cause more environmental havoc the longer we let this situation simmer.
Howard, your last two post I totally agree with. It is shameful that most of us do not have access to good public transportation. If we as a nation had as much desire to build our transportation infastructure as we have to invade countries for their oil, we would be a long long way towards that energy independence we all agree would be so helpful to our nation.
Tey, I perceive that you seem to be of the opinion that all of our wowes are the result of environmentalist. Well, I am an environmentalist my own self, and I can assure you that within some boundaries, I am not against increasing production. The boundaries need to be defined tho.
I am somewhat familiar with oil fields, and some of the by-products associated with them.
For example, one thing that you get along with oil is salt water. What the oil industry would like to do is just dump it into a local river, and let the loose end, drag, kinda like the Cimarron River in Oklahoma which is a salt water river. I would want guarantees from the oil drillers that that salt water would be pumped back into the ground instead of just dumped. I would want assurances that the gas and flamable byproducts of oil production would NOT be flamed off, at least close to populated areas. The same thing with refineries.
In short, I don't think it is morally right to dump your poisonous byproducts into the air or water which could sicken people down-wind/stream just because it is a lot cheaper to do. I would want the byproducts disposed of in an environmentally friendly manner. In addition, creation of oil fields in our national forrest and parks, if done, should be done in a manner that does not interfere with the scenic beauty of that park. Would you like to pick nick next to an oil pump and a field ? The beauty of the place should not be sacrificed for our greed.

Another thing that is going on even now that should be corrected, is that the oil in national lands belongs to "we the people". Just as if there was a well in your front yard, you would expect to be paid royalties on the oil that comes off of your land, the oil companies should pay royalties on the oil being pumped from the land belonging to "we the people". By law, the oil companies are supposed to do so, but the Republicans have protected the oil industry and they do not pay us for our oil.
One more point to make on this subject. I don't support drilling on public lands unless there is a serious effort to reduce the amount of oil that is needed in this country. Whether or not you believe it, the truth is that however much oil you think there is, we cannot drill our way to oil independence. We may produce a few million barrels at most, but that would not even keep up with new useage unless we do something to curb the use of oil. Tye, you have harped on the opening of ANWAR, but Bush's own advisors have stated that IF and WHEN it were to come on line, it would not make much difference in the price we are paying for gas.
What I am saying is that while I agree that more supply is not a bad thing, it is far more important for our country to find a way to replace oil for our personal transportation.
I realize it is important to your self worth to be able to blame this problem on "them", but in fact "them" ain't the total problem.
We should either completly take over Iraq and take over their oil reserves, or just get out. We are spending $3 Billion each and every week on that unnecessary occupation. That money could be much better spent (from a national perspective) on building transportation infrastructure that will allow us to get along with a lot less oil. A "Manhattan Project" level program to develop the next generation of personal transportation would be a good start. Those electric trains you pointed out are not here, why not use some of those funds to encourage that ? Why not good passenger train service - hell we should be supporting Amtrack and not trying to get rid of it.
This is a complex problem. It will not be solved with bumper-sticker thinking. Glenn Beck and his "drill a well thru a caribou's head " mentality is just plain ignorant. Please don't fall for that simple minded , knee jerk , reaction that will not do much to solve the problem, except just finding someone on which to allocate blame.
Excel,
despite the fact you may think otherwise, we actually do see eye to eye. I do not think all of our problems were or are being created by the environmentalists, however there needs to be some relief until the dependence can be lessened. I am not niaeve enough to believe that every family out there, particularly the ones in the lower economic scale can afford an alternative energy vehicle, and they are the ones who are being hurt the worst right now, and are also more likely to to be the ones who will not care in the future (backlash) about environmental policies. I love theoutdoors, and have traveled to Alaska many times. The public lands which are being touted there are only a small fraction of the total land mass, and with the EPA policies and regulation, there will be no significant damage to the fauna that lives there.
I too am sickened by the lack of public transportation in our country, but I also see where the "ruralness" of our area, particularly the SE is not condusive to the kind of mass transit we really need to make a large effect down here.
I support a customer rail service wholeheartedly, and would much rather money be spent there than bullets, but I also know that threats from abroad have to be considered as well. I do not fall for the knee jerk typical Rush limbaugh politics, actually I never listen to him, I had much rather watch mutiple news sources, and read to get my impression of what is going on in the world.
As far as ANWR, I do believe that opening this region, at least thru exploration will secure enough future for oil to bring us thru to alternative energy sources, at least if the sources I have read are correct, and I see no reason why they should not be.
I think it deserves a chance. Somehow or another we need to do several things to fix this. 1. Either secure or leave Iraq. We have been there long eneough to give their current leaders a hold in developing their own government.
2. We have to allow more exploration for oil and gas in order to relieve some of the speculators market (that is one group that I do not mind seeing lose thier shirt).
3. Decrease our national debt and get the value of the dollar back to where it should be.
4. Invest in developing an infrastructure in this country that will decrease our foreign dependence on oil (build a refinery, subsidize alternative energy development, open new pipelines, develop mass transit)

We are not on different pages, I am just more for compromise than saying it will not work, so lets not try it.
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark:
Breeder reactors are the best source for electricity generation. As they produce power, they recharge spent rods, reducing nuclear waste considerably -- next best thing to a perpetual motion machine.

France and Norway produce most of their power with breeder reactor.

Hydrogen injection in a car is performed by vaporization of water in the vehicle. Greatly increases gas mileage.


BTW, did you know that TVA is right now working on building a re-processing plant at Oak Ridge ?
________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:


There is ebnough wind power to supply most of the US with electricty.


That's a lie.

My wife has an aunt who works for a big company in the alternate energy department. We actually talked about wind power. For one, there isn't anywhere near enough turbines to power the entire country. There is also difficult in distribution because wind is not consistent. One day you may get plenty of power, the next next to nothing. There are also issues with figuring out how to meter and bill electricity from wind power.

Plus, there are environmentalist groups who make it difficult to put up wind farms. It requires huge amounts of land and creates an eye sore with all the massive turbines.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________


As I have stated a number of times on the Forum a few years back I heard the environmentalist from the group World Watch state that we have enough wind power in the US to supply most of the US. I believe he is right. They probably figure on wind velocities and such around the country. Most of the wind farms would be built in the West.

Wind Power is a new technology that needs to be developed. It is not impossible to develop engines and distribution if we work at it. There are companies now that are building the engines and trying. The first airplane was in the air for something like 14 seconds. The Wright Brothers didn't give up saying it was impractical.

The same goes for solar and they are building solar farms around the world. I think the United Arab Emirates or some country in the Mideast has a Mall of some kind with all energy coming from Solar. It was in the NT Times a few months back but I didn't save it in my files.

The US is stuck on oil and fossil fuels because the politicians are in the pockets of Big Corporations and Wall Street that profit on these systems. It is the corruption that Freedom and deomcracy is supposed to prevent from happening but our media is also Corporate and brain washed people with one sided information.

The electric car worked fine in California and people were using them. They were only leased and when the lease was up the company recalled them, refused to renew the lease and destroyed them. There is a documentry out about it called "Who Killed the Electric Car."

Drilling in ANWAR is not going to ower the price but only increase profits of the Oil Corporations and keep us stuck on a energy that is polluitng our environment and is finite.
All, "I heard." "I believe." "I think."

Facts, not faith, is more of an asset in argumentation.

Wind power is hardly new. In its present form its been around over 30 years. As to solar power in the southwest Asia -- they have sun most of the year, really hot sun.

Many of the solar panels come from China. Research the history of the plants that produce the panels. The pollution produced poisoned farmland for miles -- nothing grows and the farmers sicken and die. Of course, the Chinese government does nothing. Socialist fascism -- such a humane system.
Suddenly Howard is an environmentalist and concerned about pollution. If it pollutes then they need to take the steps to make it safe.

Union Carbine killed thousands in India when gas leaked and how about Chernobyl? There are plenty of chemicals polluting the US right now, how many Superfund sites are there?

In America it's legal to pollute and you can buy and sell the right to pollute. There are tons of toxic waste released into the environment every year. Oil Pollutes.

Solar is a new technology that needs to be developed. When the car was introduced there was a lot of criticism then too and the first plane only flew for something like 14 seconds. Did that stop technology?
quote:
When the car was introduced there was a lot of criticism then too and the first plane only flew for something like 14 seconds. Did that stop technology?


Let's see, development of the automobile was done by private companies in a free market. Development of the airplane was done by private companies in the free market. Development of Chernobyl was done by the government in a government controlled society.

See a pattern there?

By the way Pogo, what part of the U.S. are you in? Are you even in the U.S. at all?
Yes, bosses used thugs to intimidate workers in the 19th century. And, unions formed mobs to destroy company equipment to intimidate owners in the 19th and 20th century.

NOW

In Upstate New York non-union workers were targets of a campaign of violence and intimidation by Operating Engineers Union Local 17 thugs:

The indictment accuses Local 17 leaders and members of dozens of threats and instances of vandalism and harassment against non-union workers and contractors. At times, members of other unions were also targeted.

Much of the activity took place at major publicly funded construction projects, including the expansion of Roswell Park Cancer Institute and renovations at Ralph Wilson Stadium, Buffalo State College and the Buffalo Sewer Authority’s treatment plant on Bird Island, prosecutors said.

One of the disturbing aspects to the case, in Flynn’s view, is that members of the local repeatedly used the Web site of the state Department of Motor Vehicles to find out the addresses of people they intended to harass.

Union members went to construction sites and took photos of the license plates of vehicles used by construction company executives or non-union workers, Flynn said.

“Then, they would use that information to find out where these people lived, and where their families lived,” Flynn said. “They would then make threats against people, mentioning their home addresses.”

At times the union officials' actions seem to be out a script for a Hollywood mafia movie:

According to prosecutor Charles B. Wydysh, [union organizer] Larson had a conversation in 2003 with an official of a construction firm, STS. The conversation took place about two months after a union member had stabbed the owner of STS in the neck in an Orchard Park bar.

The STS representative is quoted in court papers asking Larson what his company would gain by hiring members of the union.

“What are the positives?” the company official asked Larson. “You guys slash my tires, stab me in the neck, try to beat me up in a bar. What are the positives in signing? There are only negatives.”

“The positives,” Larson answered, “are that the negatives you are complaining about would go away.”
The Chernobyl accident was actually a human error but the Soviets did chose to build a different type of reactor. Other countries have nuclear power plants built by the government that have had no accidents, so far. We had Three Mile Island and a reactor in Illinois that I forget the name.

The electric car was coming along quite fine but was killed by the Oil Corporations pressure. There are many technologies, as supporters of big military budgets point out, that have been developed by the military and incorporated into our society. They are developed with US tax payer dollars and then given to corporations to sell us for their profit. The Internet was developed by the military and government. That is also National Security.

The government did invest in Nuclear Power and still subsidizes it with tax breaks and other aid. Taxpayer money is paying to store the waste.

Right now oil corporations and energy companies are putting money into Solar and Wind but are doing it slowly to maintain high profits in oil, coal and electricity. It is hurting the US economy. The government does have a responsibly to act when the private sector wants to make higher profitsat the expense of the society at whole and progress.

There is nothing wrong with the government stepping up to help develop technologies to benefit the citizens, especially when the private sector is being manipulated, suppressed and dragging it's feet.

Labor problems would be solved if the government Labor Board, which is now stacked against the workers, did it's job and prevented union busting. Union busting began under Reagan and continued under all presidents, along with Corporations sending jobs overseas to increase their profits has decreased jobs and security for workers. Another example where the government needs to act in the interests of National Security.

Corporations now hire companies to come and use aggressive techniques to prevent organizing. They target and fire organizers and still hire thugs to break up unions. it came out in the 1990's that Perdue Chicken used the Mafia to prevent union organizing.
Blah, blah, blah. Same old crap, no proof.

Let the government make cars, you get the Trabant.

See the Trabant here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvl60kmVmNg

When the private sector makes cars, you get higher quality, more choice, and lower price. Just drive down the road and look at all the vehicles and car lots, they're everywhere.

Besides, there are already people in the private sector working around the clock to innovate new fuel techniques. One guy found a way to possibly use salt water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

Why are they doing this? Because whoever finds the next viable fuel will make tons of cash. They are doing it for the profit and there is nothing wrong with that.

As for labor, the problems we have is due to greedy unions driving up the cost to do business. That's why it's cheaper for companies to move out of the US or hire illegals and pay them in cash. They served their purpose when there was no protection for workers. Now there are laws and unions are not needed.

Pogo, did you notice what I did there? I posted two video links proving my statements. They are not far left or far right, just facts. It's not that hard to do, you should try it sometime.

By the way Pogo, where are you from again?
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Howard, People should ghave better sense than to cross a picket line. When you get involved in a labor dispute, you are messing with a mans way of feeding his family. You come and mess with me at work and see what you get.


What about a man who crosses the line to feed his family?

That wold be a "SCAB"
quote:
As for labor, the problems we have is due to greedy unions driving up the cost to do business. That's why it's cheaper for companies to move out of the US or hire illegals and pay them in cash. They served their purpose when there was no protection for workers. Now there are laws and unions are not needed.



Nash you are so full of it. Dana Corp filed bankruptcy 2 years ago. The year before that i visited the Corporate offices in Toledo Ohio. At the corporate offices they had valet service for the officers. While they worked, their cars were washed , waxed and detailed. They had their own kitchen where they were provided high class meals. The grounds around the office were immaculate maintained, about 15 acres in Toledo, i am sure at great expense.

I went to Toledo to discuss with them quality problems with their products stemming from the year before when they had moved some of the manufacturing to Mexico. At that time i was having a promlem with the nuts on the pinions of rear differentials in UPS trucks. At the time i had a repair contract with UPS and was having to repair or replace differentials under our warranty, and the corporate execs refused to admit they had a quality problem. The threads cut into the pinion nuts were defective. Needless to say, i lost my contract with UPS, and the same year Dana lost the contract with Chrysler and Ford over these quality issues.
The CEO of Dana who got them into bankruptcy, was paid tregular salary and a 6 million dollar bonus to eliminate corporate payments into the emplyee retirement fund. He had the stock cancelled, efectively wiping out most of the retirement of the employees who had been at the company years. The union was forced to take a pay cut with concessions that future employees would be hired without having to join or work under a union ( less pay and benefits).
The day the judge approved the plan and Dana emerged from bankruptcy, The CEO Micheal Burns, tendered his resignation, collected his 6 million dollar check and left.

This man a few years before was at the helm when GM Europe went bankrupt.
quote:
The CEO of Dana who got them into bankruptcy, was paid tregular salary and a 6 million dollar bonus to eliminate corporate payments into the emplyee retirement fund. He had the stock cancelled, efectively wiping out most of the retirement of the employees who had been at the company years.


Now you know why you should never rely on a company for your retirement. Stuff like this happens. What's your point?

You just showed an example of someone running a business in the ground, where's your point? What they did was wrong, but it's their business.

I work for a large company, I'm not union, and I don't have a penny in their stock. They can go bankrupt today and I'll be fine, I'll just do something else.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:


Blah, blah, blah. Same old crap, no proof.

Let the government make cars, you get the Trabant.

See the Trabant here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvl60kmVmNg

When the private sector makes cars, you get higher quality, more choice, and lower price. Just drive down the road and look at all the vehicles and car lots, they're everywhere.

Besides, there are already people in the private sector working around the clock to innovate new fuel techniques. One guy found a way to possibly use salt water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

Why are they doing this? Because whoever finds the next viable fuel will make tons of cash. They are doing it for the profit and there is nothing wrong with that.

As for labor, the problems we have is due to greedy unions driving up the cost to do business. That's why it's cheaper for companies to move out of the US or hire illegals and pay them in cash. They served their purpose when there was no protection for workers. Now there are laws and unions are not needed.

Pogo, did you notice what I did there? I posted two video links proving my statements. They are not far left or far right, just facts. It's not that hard to do, you should try it sometime.


________________________________________________________________________________________________


As usual Nash you ignore what I say and create a straw man to knock down. I never said anything about the government making cars, I said the government subsidizes the Nuclear Industry, which was developed by the US Military I it's Atoms for Peace Program and other businesses. The Internet also was developed by the government, with taxpayer money and NASA is a government agency that is using tax payer money to explore space. They are also doing fine. Like other programs it creates off shoots that find practical use in society. And when They are done exploring space they will hand it over to business who will then charge us for minerals and or whatever practical use they find for it.

Eisenhower spent billions to develop National Roads. He didn't have the military do it he invested money into industries to build them. That helped develop the use for cars. At the same time the Car Companies bought up trolley businesses to discontinue the service.

Today the Oil Corporations used pressure to kill the Electric Car, I once posted the article and the link to the Documentary. Look it up yourself.

Oil and Energy Companies are beginning to invest in Solar but are dragging their feet to "milk out" the most in profits from Fossil fuels. That is harming the US as a country. The government can invest in research, especially through collages.

When the private sector interferes with progress it is the responsibility of the government to step in for the good of the nation. Not to stand by and not interfere with Corporate Profits and monopolies.
Still running away from the main question, Pogo. How can anyone take you seriously if you are clearly hiding something? I'll get back to that, first I'll prove you wrong again.

Not a straw man, I provided real evidence to prove every point.

The internet may have been created by the government, but private enterprise made it what it is today. If it was left to the government to control, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Roads and basic infrastructure is the government's job. Building cars isn't. I've already provided an example of what happens when the government tries to build cars, they suck.

Henry Ford began mass producing cars for cheaper and better quality long before Eisenhower took office. The government built the roads to keep up with the cars, not the other way around.

The private sector doesn't interfere with progress, progress leads to profit. If profit is the motive that drives the economy. Take away profit and there is no motive, so progress halts.

Pogo, are you ashamed of where you're from? Why are you so secretive? I'm not asking for anything specific, I don't want your address, just a yes or no answer in regards to your ties to the Shoals.

Why is that so hard?

You also have a couple of PM's, please check them.
Extra,

"Howard, People should ghave better sense than to cross a picket line. When you get involved in a labor dispute, you are messing with a mans way of feeding his family. You come and mess with me at work and see what you get."

Didn't read the article or just decided to demogogue? Nowhere did it say picket lines were involved. Nor, did the sources involving the union members prosecution. Nice to know you have the less morals than a mafioso. The union thugs went to workers and company officials homes and threatened them. Come to my home and threaten me and bear the outcome!
Once again, I didn't say anything about the government running anything. I gave examples of how the government spent the money and led the way and worked hand in hand with the private sector. It's the government's responsibility to do it when the private sector decides there is not enough "profit" in it.

The Electric Car was well received and working fine but pressure from the oil corporations got them recalled and killed them.

The dependence on oil is hurting the economy and the average person. The price is only going to go up. We should have been off oil already. It is the government's responsibitly to invest in research in safe renewable sources.

Whether the government should run things is another matter which I am not discussing now.

As far the replacement workers go that is the same as crossing a picket line, you are taking a person job. I don't support violence but labor strife has occurred in our history. This occurs because the government allows exploitation of workers, happened under Clinton too, who is a corporate democrat. There should be enough jobs for everyone. Again, when the private sector is failing to serve the needs of the country the government must step in. It is elected to serve all the people, not just the wealthy.

Working people must realize that we need it other and when one is exploited we all are.
quote:
It is the government's responsibitly to invest in research in safe renewable sources.


Says who? Show me the part of the Constitution that says that?

There are already people researching alternate fuels. HHO, ethanol, salt water, etc. It's the private sector's responsibility to create new innovations, not the government's.

We can't come off oil unless there is something to switch to. There is nothing. The electric car was not viable. It took hours to recharge and couldn't go that far. Plus it was badly underpowered.

That's all I have to say about that, now to address a more important issue.

Pogo, what are your ties to the Shoals? Why are you so secretive about that? You shouldn't be ashamed of where you are from.

By the way, check your PM's. You aren't responding to those either.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×