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I've mentioned in the past that Ireland, which gave the Catholic church more privileges and greater deference than almost any other country in Europe, was rewarded for its devotion with one of the highest per-capita rates of child rape by priests than any other nation in the world. That scandal continues to unspool, and today there's another big update.

In 1996, in response to public outcry, a committee of Irish bishops drew up a policy which would have made it mandatory to report suspected sex predators among the clergy to the police. As I wrote back in January, the Vatican expressed strong reservations about this policy, warning that full disclosure of accusations to the civil authorities could interfere with internal church investigations (which, of course, it considered more important).

As a result, the mandatory-reporting policy, although it technically remained in force, was shelved by the bishops and never enforced. What happened next is no surprise: predator priests continued to abuse children, and the church continued to do nothing. As recently as 2009, parishioners were lodging complaints of abuse and molestation by members of the clergy.

The government now plans to introduce a law which would make it a crime for anyone, church officials included, to fail to report allegations of sex abuse to the civil authorities.

These are good first steps, but Ireland needs to go further. When the abuse scandal first broke, the government made a disastrous decision to protect the church by assuming almost all the liability for settlements to abuse victims. I hope they're giving serious consideration to reversing that decision by seizing and auctioning church property to pay compensation to the victims. I also hope that Irish officials will consider following the lead of the Philadelphia grand jury that recently returned indictments against church officials for protecting child molesters. There ought to be more than enough evidence already to file charges.

These are harsh measures, but the bishops have proven again and again that nothing less will suffice. They've shown countless times that they'll never act against child molesters on their own initiative. Their only loyalty is to the institution of the church, not to the people who attend it, and whenever anything happens that could embarrass the church, their first response will always, always be to deny, delay and cover up. They'll never take action unless they're forced to by the threat of criminal sanctions - arrests and prosecutions of bishops, seizure of church property to pay compensation to victims, and the like. The Catholic authorities are in need of a sharp reminder that they're subject to the law like everyone else, and I hope Ireland gives it to them. - http://www.daylightatheism.org...tican-continued.html

 


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07...1&pagewanted=all
Irish Report Finds Abuse Persisting in Catholic Church - Published: July 13, 2011


DUBLIN — The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland was covering up the sexual abuse of children by priests as recently as 2009, long after it issued guidelines meant to protect children, and the Vatican tacitly encouraged the cover-up by ignoring the guidelines, according to a scathing report issued Wednesday by the Irish government.

 


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...ional/i015058D74.DTL
Irish summon Vatican diplomat over abuse cover-up - Associated Press July 14, 2011


DUBLIN, Ireland -- Ireland's government summoned the Vatican's ambassador Thursday for a rare face-to-face confrontation to respond to a report showing Rome secretly discouraged Irish bishops from reporting pedophile priests to police.

Foreign Minister Eamon Gilmore met Pope Benedict XVI's diplomat in Dublin a day after Irish investigators found that the Vatican in 1997 encouraged bishops to reject the Irish church's tough new child-protection rules.

Prime Minister Enda Kenny, who didn't attend the meeting, called the Vatican's role in placing the church's own canon law above Irish criminal law "absolutely disgraceful."

i pray to Cheesus

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One of the things that VP used to say in response to the topic of massive worldwide child sexual abuse as was covered up and allowed by The Church is that it was in the past, that it was fixed and getting better. One can hope that Catholics will not continue to use that particular argument to deflect attention from this vile and ongoing problem or defend the lack of action by The Pope, the bishops, cardinals and priests. Movements always start from the bottom, up. The responsibility to actually make this horror show better falls on followers to hold their church and it's corrupt hierarchy accountable or to at least have the moral conscience to find some other political entity to support.

A.R. says: "One of the things that VP used to say in response to the topic of massive worldwide child sexual abuse as was covered up and allowed by The Church is that it was in the past, that it was fixed and getting better."

 

I don't recall her saying that. As she is no longer active here, I think if you're going to tell anyone what she "used to say", you had best delve back into those old discussions and get us an exact quote. Otherwise, you might just as well be putting words in someone's mouth.

 

 

.- Fr. Federico Lombardi said claims that the Vatican encouraged Irish bishops to not report sex abuse cases to police are untrue and ignore everything the Holy See has done to the counteract the issue.

“In attributing grave responsibility to the Holy See for what happened in Ireland,” Fr. Lombardi, S.J., wrote, “such accusations … demonstrate little awareness of what the Holy See has actually done over the years to help effectively address the problem.”

Fr. Lombardi clarified that his comments were not an official Vatican response, which is scheduled to be issued soon.

The Vatican spokesman made his remarks July 20 amid accusations by Irish lawmakers that a 1997 letter to Irish bishops sabotaged their child protection policy by instructing them to handle abuse cases strictly by canon law.

The letter was highlighted in the recently issued report on the Diocese of Cloyne that identified nine cases between 1996 and 2005 which should have been reported by the authorities but were not. The July 13 Cloyne report is one of several government investigations conducted in the wake of frequently mishandled and covered-up abuse cases in the Irish Church.

Prime Minister Enda Kelly harshly criticized the Vatican on Wednesday, saying that Church leaders are steeped in a climate of “narcissism” and sought to defend their institutions as opposed to protecting children.

However, speaking to Vatican Radio, Fr. Lombardi argued that there is “no reason” to interpret the 1997 letter “as being intended to cover up cases of abuse.”

He explained that the letter was written to the Irish bishops' conference by the then-papal nuncio in Ireland. It detailed how their 1996 document “Child Sexual Abuse: Framework for a Church Response” was problematic from a canon law perspective.

Fr. Lombardi emphasized that the letter never told Irish bishops to only address abuse cases from a canon law approach, but that some of the canonical details in the protection policy needed to be amended to prevent them from being invalid.

The letter “warned against the risk that measures were being taken which could later turn out to be questionable or invalid from the canonical point of view, thus defeating the purpose of the effective sanctions proposed by the Irish bishops,” he said.

Fr. Lombardi also clarified that there “is absolutely nothing in the letter that is an invitation to disregard the laws of the country.”

He said that any reference the letter had to bishops providing abuse information to police “did not object to any civil law to that effect” because civil law of that kind did not exist in Ireland at the time.

The Vatican spokesman called the criticism by the government “curious,” saying it's as “if the Holy See was guilty of not having given merit under canon law to norms which a State did not consider necessary to give value under civil law.”

Fr. Lombardi was also critical of the accusations against the Vatican in light of everything Pope Benedict XVI has done to address the sex abuse problem in the Irish Catholic Church.

He recalled the Pope's “intense feelings of grief and condemnation” and that the pontiff spoke openly of his “shock and shame” at the “heinous crimes” committed.

In addition to the Pope summoning the Irish bishops to the Vatican in December of 2009 and February of 2010, he also published a letter to the Catholics of Ireland “which contains the strongest and most eloquent expressions of his participation in the suffering of victims and their families, as well as a reminder of the terrible responsibility of the guilty and the failures of Church leaders in their tasks of government or supervision,” Fr. Lombardi said.

An Apostolic Visitation of the Church in Ireland – divided into four visitations of the archdiocese, the seminaries and religious congregations – also followed the Pope's letter and the “results of the visitation are at an advanced stage of study and evaluation,” he said.

 

Iv

Originally Posted by O No!:

A.R. says: "One of the things that VP used to say in response to the topic of massive worldwide child sexual abuse as was covered up and allowed by The Church is that it was in the past, that it was fixed and getting better."

 

I don't recall her saying that. As she is no longer active here, I think if you're going to tell anyone what she "used to say", you had best delve back into those old discussions and get us an exact quote. Otherwise, you might just as well be putting words in someone's mouth.

O,

I really like and appreciate vp more than most people on here. I wouldn't try to use her recent lack of activity to try to make an argument/response/comment about something that she didn't actually say. In fact, that vp said something like that at all is probably why I remember it at all. Of course, I could be mistaken but it would only be due to crappy memory and not for lack of respect toward vp.

So fair enough, out of mutual respect for vp, I'll try to find what you request. If I can't find it (even though I think it in here somewhere) I'll apologize for the error and for bringing vp's good name into this.

However, if I can find the quote I was referring to, will you apologize for insinuating that I would purposely try to misrepresent vp in her absence? and will you address the rest of my comment above?

Motive for Sandra Cantu's Murder a Mystery as Sunday School Teacher Charged:

 

Huckaby is a granddaughter of Pastor Clifford Lane Lawless, whose Clover Road Baptist Church was the subject of a police search earlier this week.

"It’s not my grandfather’s," Huckaby told the Tracy Press of the missing suitcase. “It’s mine and someone took it.”

Huckaby taught Sunday school at the church and lived with Lawless in the Orchard Estates Mobile Home Park.

Lawless did not immediately respond to a call seeking comment Saturday. Sheneman said police haven't spoken with the suspect's grandfather since her arrest.

Huckaby's family had been questioned at length during the investigation, and their home and vehicles had been searched, Sheneman said.

He said the shock of learning that the suspect is a woman — and one who knew Sandra and her family — had rattled the community of Tracy, a city of 78,000 people about 60 miles east of San Francisco.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514435,00.html

 

 

Sunday School Teacher Booked in Sandra Cantu's Murder

 

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=7313938&page=1

 

She also sexually assaulted the child.

http://wn.com/Sunday_School_Te...tu's_Murder_ABC_News

A., I wasn't accusing you of lying. I just don't remember her saying that. And around here (and rightly so), people demand a source for just about everything. I just thought if you were going to cite what another member said, you should find and quote them rather than relying on your own memory AND interpretation.

I meant no offense, and I apologize for not wording things better. You say you could be mistaken. Well so could I. That's why if you can find a quote, we will all know for sure. Peace?

Originally Posted by O No!:

A., I wasn't accusing you of lying. I just don't remember her saying that. And around here (and rightly so), people demand a source for just about everything. I just thought if you were going to cite what another member said, you should find and quote them rather than relying on your own memory AND interpretation.

I meant no offense, and I apologize for not wording things better. You say you could be mistaken. Well so could I. That's why if you can find a quote, we will all know for sure. Peace?

Thank you O. I appreciate it. Here's the quote/comment I remember and the impetus for my response when I saw this story:

 

Originally Posted by vplee123:
This is not a new scandal.
Not defending their actions by any means, but the alleged abuse occurred from the 40's to the 1990's.
I do hope that the Catholic Church hierarchy has adopted a better way to handle this.
But, just to clarify, this is a settlement of old claims.
Doesn't make it right, but I do trust that this is not occurring anymore....
March 25, 2011 10:13 PM
https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...5#208733512872741985


Do you care to respond to my original comment about the responsibility of Catholics in response to these ongoing horrors? I'll look for the quote but I believe that vp also said that she had divested herself from the Church in some way or other.


Veep was talking about a SPECIFIC INSTANCE, the one Opie linked to, two posts above Veep's.

 

Hall of Famer
 
March 25, 2011 7:13 PM
 

Record payout from the Catholic Church today. Jesuits were the pedophiles this time. The victims; 470 poor native American kids.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/...d-abuse-case/?hpt=T2
 
 
 
<script type="text/javascript"></script>
 
 
Old Faithful
 
March 25, 2011 7:35 PM
 

Awwwww, man.... I have always thought of the Jesuits as the good guys. I hope the payout puts these rat *******s out of business for good, and that criminal proceedings will begin.
 
 
 
<script type="text/javascript"></script>
 
 
Post Master
 
March 25, 2011 10:13 PM
 

This is not a new scandal.
Not defending their actions by any means, but the alleged abuse occurred from the 40's to the 1990's.
I do hope that the Catholic Church hierarchy has adopted a better way to handle this.
But, just to clarify, this is a settlement of old claims.
Doesn't make it right, but I do trust that this is not occurring anymore....
 
 
 
I don't have any answers about solving the problem. Although in my heart, I FEEL Catholic, I am NOT actually a member of the Catholic Church. I'd like to see ALL abuse, everywhere come to an end, whether it be in Scouting, schools, other churches, government, or neighborhoods. I don't have any answers though.

Wow, I wrote more, but it didn't come out very well.

 

Anyway, what I tried to say is that although I feel in my heart that I'm supposed to be Catholic, I am not yet a member of the Catholic Church. And I don't have any answers. I'd like to see all abuse stop, in Scouting, in schools, in neighborhoods. But I don't know how to go about it.

 

I do feel however, that nothing the MEMBERS of the Church say or do will make any difference. In our own government, we the people don't have much say, and how much less would those in authority pay, who are NOT in elected positions?

Underlying this Catholic scandal in Ireland is a policy decision made by the Vatican, namely the decision some time back NOT to report the known sexual and other physical abuses to civil authorities, but to deal with the issues under canon law.  Canon law FAILED.  Canon law was used to facilitate a cover-up, such that the Irish public was kept largely in the dark for many years concerning the depth and egregiousness of these unholy practices by the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church.  The people and the government of Ireland are justifiably outraged by the deceptive, evasive, and cowardly actions of  the Vatican.

http://www.timesdaily.com/arti...10725/API/1107250606

 

Vatican recalls envoy to Ireland amid abuse uproar

By VICTOR L. SIMPSON
Associated Press

Published: Monday, July 25, 2011 at 11:48 a.m.
Last Modified: Monday, July 25, 2011 at 11:48 a.m.
 

VATICAN CITY - Chafing under extraordinary criticism, the Vatican made the rare move of recalling its ambassador to Ireland on Monday following accusations that the Holy See sabotaged efforts by Catholic bishops to report clerical sex abuse cases to police.

 

A Vatican spokesman said Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza was recalled to help prepare an official response to Irish complaints, but that the decision "does not exclude some degree of surprise and disappointment at certain excessive reactions."

 

The spokesman, the Rev. Ciro Benedettini, acknowledged the recall of an ambassador was a measure rarely used by the Holy See, underlining "the seriousness of the situation."

 

The deepening crisis follows a July 13 report that the Irish diocese of Cloyne failed to act on complaints against 19 priests from 1996 to 2009. It further alleged the Vatican encouraged bishops to ignore child-protection guidelines including the requirement that abuse claims be reported to civil authorities.

 

Foreign Minister Eamon Gilmore had summoned papal ambassador Leanza and demanded an official response from the Vatican. The Vatican has said it will issue one at the "opportune time," but has not done so yet.

 

Gilmore, who is also deputy prime minister, said Monday that the recall was "a matter for the Holy See," saying in a statement that "it is to be expected that the Vatican would wish to consult in depth with the nuncio on its response."

 

Repercussions from the long-running scandal have grown increasingly bitter, with Ireland's lawmakers making an unprecedented denunciation of the Holy See's influence in the predominantly Catholic country.

 

Prime Minister Enda Kenny denounced to lawmakers last week what he called "the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism - and the narcissism - that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day."

It was the first time in the past 17 years of pedophile-priest scandals in Ireland that parliamentarians have taken on the Vatican rather than local church leaders. Revelations of widespread abuse have eroded Catholic authority in a nation where the church still owns most schools and several hospitals, and state broadcasters still toll a twice-daily call to Catholic prayer.

 

A confidential 1997 Vatican letter - originally published by The Associated Press in January - instructed Irish bishops to handle child-abuse cases strictly under terms of canon law. It warned bishops that their 1996 child-protection policy, particularly its emphasis on the need to start reporting all suspected crimes to police, violated canon law.

 

Kenny said Catholic canon law had "neither legitimacy nor (a) place in the affairs of this country." He pledged to press ahead with new laws making it a crime to withhold evidence of child abuse - even if the information was attained during a priest's confession. The Catholic Church insists that the contents of confessions must never be revealed.

 

The Vatican's spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi last week promised to respond and expressed hope the debate on the scandals will play out "objectively" and restore a climate of trust in the church and Irish society.

Originally Posted by upsidedehead:

Yet another in a centuries-long series of abuses and outrages by the Roman Catholic Church.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

By Bob Allen

The Associated Press reported recently that three insurance companies receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, challenging the assumption that clergy sexual abuse is an exclusively Catholic problem that does not take place in other churches.

That is a higher number than the annual average of 228 “credible accusations” brought against Catholic clerics in records reported by the Catholic Church in response to media scrutiny, a priest observed in a Fox News commentaryquestioning why the story isn’t garnering more attention.

While the report about abuse in Protestant churches doesn’t absolve guilty Catholic priests or those who enabled them, said Father Jonathan Morris, it offers a more complete picture. “The problem of sexual abuse has no denominational boundaries,” he wrote.

 

.

Originally Posted by O No!:

Wow, I wrote more, but it didn't come out very well.

 

Anyway, what I tried to say is that although I feel in my heart that I'm supposed to be Catholic, I am not yet a member of the Catholic Church. And I don't have any answers. I'd like to see all abuse stop, in Scouting, in schools, in neighborhoods. But I don't know how to go about it.

 

I do feel however, that nothing the MEMBERS of the Church say or do will make any difference. In our own government, we the people don't have much say, and how much less would those in authority pay, who are NOT in elected positions?

I think not being a member of a Catholic Church is the way to go. Or leaving in protest, if you are a member, due to these pedophile atrocities. You can still be a spiritual Catholic anyway, I'm sure. It would just mean you don't support the corrupt and greedy hierarchy.

 

As to nothing members can do making a difference, I disagree. The Church is already in decline, if they were to see that moral, ethical and upstanding Catholic church members stop their financial support and stop attending services due to the hierarchy's approval of keeping the status quo at the cost tens of thousands of children's lives, say to the tune of losing 30% membership, they'd do what's in their own best interest and submit to the public need for a change. Right now, the Pope and others have no motivation to do anything they don't want, regardless of how obvious and humane or Jesus-like it is because they don't have to and they know that only a miniscule few will walk away. I think this is an example of where faith gets in the way of helping fellow humans in need by looking the other way out of fear or helplessness to make a difference.

 

Yes, I realize that I'm an atheist giving this advice to a Catholic on not being a member of the Church... I hope you at least consider the merits of what I'm saying.

 

I think you misunderstood me, A. I was born and raised protestant. I attended the Catholic Church with my late husband and I found it very reverent, peaceful, and beautiful. I never did take the two years of catechism needed to convert, but that is where my heart is. If I WERE a member, rather than walking away, I would do whatever I could to fix things from the inside. You don't abandon what you love when it is broken, you try to mend it.

Originally Posted by O No!:

I think you misunderstood me, A. I was born and raised protestant. I attended the Catholic Church with my late husband and I found it very reverent, peaceful, and beautiful. I never did take the two years of catechism needed to convert, but that is where my heart is. If I WERE a member, rather than walking away, I would do whatever I could to fix things from the inside. You don't abandon what you love when it is broken, you try to mend it.

Ok, so I misunderstood this line too?

I do feel however, that nothing the MEMBERS of the Church say or do will make any difference.

Originally Posted by O No!:

No, A., you didn't misunderstand. I really DON'T think there is a lot the members can do, but I would never discourage them from trying. ("Who knows? Maybe the horse will learn to sing.")

Again, I think this is an example of where faith gets in the way of helping fellow humans in need by looking the other way out of fear or helplessness to make a difference.

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by O No!:

Wow, I wrote more, but it didn't come out very well.

 

Anyway, what I tried to say is that although I feel in my heart that I'm supposed to be Catholic, I am not yet a member of the Catholic Church. And I don't have any answers. I'd like to see all abuse stop, in Scouting, in schools, in neighborhoods. But I don't know how to go about it.

 

I do feel however, that nothing the MEMBERS of the Church say or do will make any difference. In our own government, we the people don't have much say, and how much less would those in authority pay, who are NOT in elected positions?

I think not being a member of a Catholic Church is the way to go. Or leaving in protest, if you are a member, due to these pedophile atrocities. You can still be a spiritual Catholic anyway, I'm sure. It would just mean you don't support the corrupt and greedy hierarchy.

 

As to nothing members can do making a difference, I disagree. The Church is already in decline, if they were to see that moral, ethical and upstanding Catholic church members stop their financial support and stop attending services due to the hierarchy's approval of keeping the status quo at the cost tens of thousands of children's lives, say to the tune of losing 30% membership, they'd do what's in their own best interest and submit to the public need for a change. Right now, the Pope and others have no motivation to do anything they don't want, regardless of how obvious and humane or Jesus-like it is because they don't have to and they know that only a miniscule few will walk away. I think this is an example of where faith gets in the way of helping fellow humans in need by looking the other way out of fear or helplessness to make a difference.

 

Yes, I realize that I'm an atheist giving this advice to a Catholic on not being a member of the Church... I hope you at least consider the merits of what I'm saying.

 

=================================

Adot, I’ve heard about all I want to stomach of your insinuating the membership of the Catholic  Church is responsible for these crimes against children.

What makes me sick is I know of an incident involving one of your own atheistics. I was appalled to hear it from a young person who was devastated to have been shown pictures of young boys partially nude.

When you have the godless society you and your buddyetts advocate little boys will be fair game for you.

As the old saying goes the guilty dogs are always barking and this incident seemed to coincide with another event. Possibly a cover up. I’ve got my eye on the barkin’ dogs.

Originally Posted by Gnu:

       

         class="quotedText do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_tl do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_tr do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_bl do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_br">
       

@ Rramnlim - little boys are already fair game for your kind. You don't need Atheists for that sick equation. I hope you will stop showing nude children's pics and turn yourself in

immediately



I see this struck a nerve gnu. There are several witnesses to the child **** incident.
Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:
Originally Posted by Gnu:

       

         class="quotedText do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_tl do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_tr do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_bl do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_br">
       

@ Rramnlim - little boys are already fair game for your kind. You don't need Atheists for that sick equation. I hope you will stop showing nude children's pics and turn yourself in

immediately



I see this struck a nerve gnu. There are several witnesses to the child **** incident.

 

 

If this were true of a group of atheist that I belonged to and this person was not immediately reported to the police AND kicked out of said group, I would leave myself.

 

Now what say you Catholics? Will you keep supporting those that abuse children and the ones that help cover it up, or will you demand that those that are responsible pay for their actions and leave your church?

 

Its that simple Ramm/buffalo. If you have true and real knowledge of ANYONE abusing a child I suggest you go to the police and report it. Otherwise you are guilty of abetting those that actually did.

Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:

When you have the godless society you and your buddyetts advocate little boys will be fair game for you.

As the old saying goes the guilty dogs are always barking and this incident seemed to coincide with another event. Possibly a cover up. I’ve got my eye on the barkin’ dogs.

 

 

You are so sick minded. You make my skin crawl. You also scare me. I see you as someone who would do what the guy in Norway did. He was a crazy religious person too. I know that not all religious people are like that, but you strike me as someone capable of doing harm to others. I hope that you seek help soon. Maybe talk to your pastor or a friend about your thoughts and feelings. Seriously, you need help.

 

To the members of this forum, I ask you to please stop encouraging Ramm/buffalo. Sometimes we forget that there is a real person behind the screen name. He has very real and serious issues and I think he could be a danger to our community.

DA, if you google the words, "Norway shooter religious" you will find that although the BLOGS say yes or no, the NEWS STORIES say he is insane, and that his manifesto seems to indicate that his views were nationalistic rather than religious.

 

Why is it that every time there is a tragic, violent episode of any sort, atheists cry, "Christian fanatic!" and Christians cry, "Godless atheist!" When are we going to admit to ourselves and each other that there are plenty of crazy people to go around - Christian, atheist, right wing and left wing.

Well gnu I didn’t see the pictures. A young impressionable lady complained to me that the pictures were shown and when she saw the content she turned away and refused to look further. A growed up lady protested and the person showing the pictures jumped into the air stomping like a madman raising so much hell that the girl was stunned and aghast at what this atheistic did and it left her speechless.

 

Gnu I perceive you to be a naive dude. Whats your story anyhow? work history, age, origion, hobbies, civil record etc. I'll bet you have a couple semesters under your belt at some university, don't wear socks, smoke pot, and represent a financial drain on somebody.

Originally Posted by O No!:

DA, if you google the words, "Norway shooter religious" you will find that although the BLOGS say yes or no, the NEWS STORIES say he is insane, and that his manifesto seems to indicate that his views were nationalistic rather than religious.

 

Why is it that every time there is a tragic, violent episode of any sort, atheists cry, "Christian fanatic!" and Christians cry, "Godless atheist!" When are we going to admit to ourselves and each other that there are plenty of crazy people to go around - Christian, atheist, right wing and left wing.

 

I must point out that it's funny how when a Muslim commits an act of terror it seems that no one in the West is splitting hairs about calling them a "Muslim terrorist" even if their aims are purely politically motivated but when a Christian does the same thing, then it's inappropriate to call him a "Christian terrorist".

 

Notice how the early story in Norway went from "religiously-motivated" to "politically-motivated" as soon as a Christian was implicated? Suddenly his religion was less significant... LOL  (...but it's still ok to call 2 year-old with Christian parents a "Christian")


This guy is anti-UN, anti-EU, anti-Islamic immigration, blamed secularism for the problems in Europe, had ties to neo-****s and right-wing hate groups and was a fundamentalist Christian. Was he not a Christian terrorist?

btw, were "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland, that went on for about 380 years, ever referred to as Christian terrorism (on both sides)??

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by upsidedehead:

Yet another in a centuries-long series of abuses and outrages by the Roman Catholic Church.

And it didn't take the protestant church but three or four hundred years to

outrun the Church, but lets not talk about that.

 

.

Vic,

 

You ARE aware that Catholicism is the predominant religion in America now?

 

DF

Originally Posted by upsidedehead:

Underlying this Catholic scandal in Ireland is a policy decision made by the Vatican, namely the decision some time back NOT to report the known sexual and other physical abuses to civil authorities, but to deal with the issues under canon law.  Canon law FAILED.  Canon law was used to facilitate a cover-up, such that the Irish public was kept largely in the dark for many years concerning the depth and egregiousness of these unholy practices by the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church.  The people and the government of Ireland are justifiably outraged by the deceptive, evasive, and cowardly actions of  the Vatican.

Up,

 

No layers upon layers of apologies can redeem the Church from it's plenary sins against its own youth.  The guilt trips would be enough to condemn it, but the sexual abuse puts the Church above redemption to moral people.  The management of the Church deliberately perpetuated this abuse, in full knowledge of the harm it caused.  If there was a Devil, this would be his work, not God's.

 

Luckily, human knowledge has surpassed the primitive superstition that is the core of the Christian religion.  Atheism is the fastest growing religious opinion in all 50 states.  There is a reason.

 

Religion Fails.

 

It fails in its every attempt and reach.  It fails in morality, obviously, it fails in history, it fails in science, it fails in community, it fails especially in truth.  It will hold on for reasons of cultural momentum, but it will become an anachronism in the foreseeable future.

 

Progress will happen.  We are the agents of this progress, and the internet is our medium. 
We are unstoppable, for right is on our side.  We are invincible, yet patient.  We hold the truth, even when the truth is that we don't know.  Not only do we freely admit that there are things we don't know, we revel in them.  The Godheads who have the easy answer to everything have the answers to nothing.  They should be ashamed.

 

Talk with their children.  Ask them pointed questions.  They will come around, even if the current situation looks bleak.  The truth is too much to resist indefinitely.

 

DF

 

 
Originally Posted by O No!:

DA, if you google the words, "Norway shooter religious" you will find that although the BLOGS say yes or no, the NEWS STORIES say he is insane, and that his manifesto seems to indicate that his views were nationalistic rather than religious.

 

Why is it that every time there is a tragic, violent episode of any sort, atheists cry, "Christian fanatic!" and Christians cry, "Godless atheist!" When are we going to admit to ourselves and each other that there are plenty of crazy people to go around - Christian, atheist, right wing and left wing.

 

 

My words:

"I see you as someone who would do what the guy in Norway did. He was a crazy religious person too. I know that not all religious people are like that, but you strike me as someone capable of doing harm to others."

 

No where in that do you find the word Christian. I even went so far as to make it clear that I wasn't saying ALL religious people would kill as this one did. You and a couple of others on here was what made me choose my words very carefully. I realize now it just doesn't matter how I or any other atheist say something about religion in the negative it is completely twisted into whatever you guys want it to say. So from now on I am not going to try and be as civil and delicate of your sensitivities. I gave it a shot and it failed. 

 

Truth is that he was most definitely a religious fanatic. From all accounts he was of the Christian flavor. I just saw a report on the news where a AWOL Muslim soldier was caught in Texas plotting to attack the base with explosives. Lets see how many Christians come to the muslims defense and say that this guy was "not a true Muslim" and that it didn't mean anything at all what his religion was, he was just insane.

 

Shall we compare recent (last couple of decades) violent attacks committed by those that claim to be doing God's/Allah's work with those that invoke atheism as even one of their driving motives? Trying to make it seem that they are some how equal in numbers and frequency is just another way of trying to down play the role that religion plays in the violence. Of course what I am told most often is that "he was not a TRUE Christian" I say again I guess I still haven't met one of those...except maybe Bill and GB. They seem to be the poster children for good Christian love and acceptance.

 

I will be glad when Christians stop trying to ignore the fact that their religion (and other religions) play a huge role in the discourse and violence of this world.  You won't to make it a more peaceful world? Stop lying about what the real problem is.

Listen sweetie, I am NOT a liar. We have had this discussion countless times on this forum, and if you will reread my post, you will see that I said:

 

"Why is it that every time there is a tragic, violent episode of any sort, atheists cry, "Christian fanatic!" and Christians cry, "Godless atheist!" When are we going to admit to ourselves and each other that there are plenty of crazy people to go around - Christian, atheist, right wing and left wing."

 

In other words, trying to blame the acts of a crazy person on their religion or their politics is childish and pointless. Remember when Loughner shot all those people in Arizona? Immediately the right wingers and the left wingers started to blame it on his politics, each side claiming he was a member of the opposing side.

 

This is the same. The guy is nuts. Has nothing to do with his religion. Nuts is nuts, and nuts come in all flavors, religious, atheist, Democrat, Republican, male, female, whatever else you can think of. Instead of pointing fingers at whichever group we oppose, perhaps we should just be thinking about the victims and their families.

Oh, and by the way, DISCOURSE means discussion. Perhaps the word you were seeking was DISCORD. And I have to tell you, I don't "won't" anything - there are a few things I WANT, but I have never "won'ted" anything at all.

 

"I will be glad when Christians stop trying to ignore the fact that their religion (and other religions) play a huge role in the discourse and violence of this world.  You won't to make it a more peaceful world? Stop lying about what the real problem is."

Sez Ono:

 

"Why is it that every time there is a tragic, violent episode of any sort, atheists cry, "Christian fanatic!" and Christians cry, "Godless atheist!" When are we going to admit to ourselves and each other that there are plenty of crazy people to go around - Christian, atheist, right wing and left wing."

 

Honestly, I didn't think either christian or atheist when I hear stuff like that.

What I do think is more along the lines of "Frickin' chooch."

Originally Posted by O No!:

Oh, and by the way, DISCOURSE means discussion. Perhaps the word you were seeking was DISCORD. And I have to tell you, I don't "won't" anything - there are a few things I WANT, but I have never "won'ted" anything at all.

 

"I will be glad when Christians stop trying to ignore the fact that their religion (and other religions) play a huge role in the discourse and violence of this world.  You won't to make it a more peaceful world? Stop lying about what the real problem is."

OMG! Its the grammar police!

 

Hilarious. So instead of discussing the facts of my post this is what you decided to focus on. I make all kinds of grammar and spelling mistakes. I am famous for crossing up words that sound similar. You should just follow me around the forum and I am sure you can find many many more mistakes such as this to worry over.

 

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