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Is BIG OIL gouging Americans?

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midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
NO!!!
If you'll research it I think you'll find that BIG OIL makes less profit percentage wise than for example Coca-Cola or Merck. We just use a lot more gasoline than we drink coke. If our vehicles ran on coke instead of gas, Coca-Cola Co. would make 15 billion + per qtr. Back in the mid sixties a gallon of gas was app. 30 cents, a bbl. of oil was app. 3 dollars. The cost of a bbl. of oil has risen twenty fold, while the cost of a gallon of gas has risen about eight fold. If we're getting gouged now, we were really getting screwed forty years ago. But I don't remember people hollering about BIG OIL. That's human nature. If Exxon-Mobil dropped their gas to 30 cents a gallon, most people wouldn't care how much they made.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by midknightrider:
NO!!!
If you'll research it I think you'll find that BIG OIL makes less profit percentage wise than for example Coca-Cola or Merck. We just use a lot more gasoline than we drink coke. If our vehicles ran on coke instead of gas, Coca-Cola Co. would make 15 billion + per qtr. Back in the mid sixties a gallon of gas was app. 30 cents, a bbl. of oil was app. 3 dollars. The cost of a bbl. of oil has risen twenty fold, while the cost of a gallon of gas has risen about eight fold. If we're getting gouged now, we were really getting screwed forty years ago. But I don't remember people hollering about BIG OIL. That's human nature. If Exxon-Mobil dropped their gas to 30 cents a gallon, most people wouldn't care how much they made.


Published on Saturday, October 29, 2005

The recent announcement that Exxon Mobil has earned the largest quarterly profit in the history of our nation makes it clear just how this bad oil company price gouging has become. Reports show that Exxon Mobil brought in a 3rd quarter profit of nearly $10 billion. This is the largest corporate quarterly profit ever, and more than $4 billion dollars more than the company brought in during the 3rd quarter of last year.

To put this in perspective, this means that Exxon Mobil hauled in more profits in three months than corporate behemoths Coca-Cola Co., Intel Corp. and Time Warner Inc. earn in an entire year.

And Exxon Mobil is not alone. ConocoPhillips Co. 3rd quarter profits increased by 89% from last year's level. Royal Dutch Shell's profits increased by 68%; and Marathon Oil's profits more than tripled. In fact, all of the major oil companies experienced record-breaking profits, bringing in an estimated $28 billion more in profits this year as compared to 2004.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
Big Oil companies post record breaking profits.
While Americans pay more at the pump, the five largest oil companies reported a record $110 billion in profits in 2005. Exxon Mobil alone raked in $36 billion in profits, the largest annual profit of any American company. And this past week, it became clear that those record profits are continuing in 2006. The country's three largest petroleum companies -- Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp. and ConocoPhillips -- posted combined first-quarter profits of almost $16 billion. [Associated Press, 4/28/06]

Oil executives making out like bandits.
Exxon is giving Lee Raymond one of the most generous retirement packages in history, nearly $400 million, including pension, stock options and other perks. [ABC News, 4/14/06] Raymond's retirement deal and paycheck in 2005 amount to $141,000 a day, or nearly $6,000 an hour. [ABC News, 4/14/06] The top executive for Occidental Petroleum received about $63 million in total compensation last year, an increase of more than 50 percent over 2004, while the CEO for Chevron received nearly $37 million. [New York Times, 4/15/06]



So why are gas prices so high while profits continue to break records? Unless you yourself are profiting from this deception & even if you are for that matter, I can't see how you can come to any other conclusion. Yes, Big Oil is gouging Americans.
Last edited by _Joy_
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
Simple supply and demand. Oil companies know they have us by the balls. We have to have gas to go to work, buy groceries, survive in everyday life. They know they can keep raising it steadily and make more money because nothing can stop them. That's why we need to develop alternate fuels as quickly as we can. If gas gets too high, people will start using ethanol more. If that gets too high people will use something else. Choice keeps prices down, when there is no choice, there is no limit to how high prices can go.
Shoals LoverShoals LoverHall of Famer
"They know they can keep raising it steadily and make more money because nothing can stop them. Choice keeps prices down, when there is no choice, there is no limit to how high prices can go."

If the preceding remark is true, how are these prices explained?

As of April/May 2006, according to research performed by Associates for International Research, Inc., the per-gallon gasoline price in

• Saudi Arabia - .91¢,
• Kuwait - .78¢
• Egypt - .65¢
• Nigeria - .38¢
• Venezuela - .12¢

According to the U.S. Engergy Information Agency, the spot price of conventional regular gasoline in New York Harbor in 2000 was .863¢ per gallon, while in the U.S. Gulf Coast was .8377¢ per gallon. In 2005, the prices were $1.5651 and $1.5962 respectively.

Reformulated regular gasoline was $1.5992 and $1.6407 in those locations in '05 respectively.

(move decimal point to proper position in final graph.)
Last edited by Shoals Lover
midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
According to their latest 10Q, Exxon sold 99 billion dollars worth of product. It cost them 81 billion to get their products to market. They gave the gov. 7.5 billion in taxes and got too keep the other 10.5 billion. So in the end, they sold 99 billion dollars worth and kept 10.5 billion. In my earlier post I used Coca Cola as an example. In their latest 10 Q they sold 6.5 billion dollars worth and kept 1.5 billion. If you extrapolate it out, if Coca Cola had sold 99 billion dollars worth they would have made over 22 billion. Which one of these companies would you say is gouging the consumer? It's human nature to want to blame someone else. It's Bush and Big Oil. It's certainly not our fault, so it must be somebody else. While I'm not a Bush fan, I have a hard time believing he controls the price of crude oil. It's simply supply and demand economics. The demand in this country is high, while the supply is low. Therefore we must buy crude oil from whoever has it, and pay what they want for it. In SL examples of gas prices a few posts back, the lowest prices were in countries with high supplies of crude oil and low demand of gas. Think there's any correlation? My point is, while big oil is making a lot of money, their profit on their product is not outrageously high. Like I said, if they lowered gas to a dollar a gallon and still made 10 billion, people wouldn't say they were gouging.
Shoals LoverShoals LoverHall of Famer
Oil is necessary for industrial operations.

Coca-Cola is not.

BIG OIL has a history of defrauding investors and land owners from where they obtain their crude. Case in point: State of Alabama v. Exxon Mobile Corporation, which is Alabama's Breach of Contract and fraud claims against Exxon Mobil Corporation relating to oil and gas contract leases where in Exxon Mobile was found guilty of defrauding Alabama of $11.9 billion. That's $2,644 for every man, woman and child in Alabama.

Coca-Cola does not.

While Bush does not single-handedly control the price of crude oil, the political party of which he is titular head, at his behest, continues to enact legislation that permits the corporate ramrodding of business interests over and above those of families and consumers. Case in point: Enron, which was a complete defrauding and sham that lost billions of dollars from false and overstated profits, at the corporate and private investor levels. Meanwhile, while some retirees are now relegated to working menial jobs to survive, the Chief Executives remain living, loving and laughing in the lap of luxury, floating on their yachts in the Mediterranean.

To claim that "It's simply supply and demand economics" and that "the demand in this country is high, while the supply is low" as the exclusive problem is abysmally short-sighted.

Asserting that "the lowest prices were in countries with high supplies of crude oil and low demand of gas" does not account for the vast differences in price in other areas such as Scandinavian, European or Asian nations where gasoline approaches and exceeds $6 per gallon.

According to the law of supply and demand "when demand is greater than supply, prices rise and when supply is greater than demand, prices fall." If that maxim were true in this instance, the highest price ought to be in the United States. However, it it not.

So, any claim that "while big oil is making a lot of money, their profit on their product is not outrageously high" is not only absurd, it is exceedingly ignorant of the variances in global price and demand in oil and gasoline.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by midknightrider:
According to their latest 10Q, Exxon sold 99 billion dollars worth of product. It cost them 81 billion to get their products to market. They gave the gov. 7.5 billion in taxes and got too keep the other 10.5 billion. So in the end, they sold 99 billion dollars worth and kept 10.5 billion. In my earlier post I used Coca Cola as an example. In their latest 10 Q they sold 6.5 billion dollars worth and kept 1.5 billion. If you extrapolate it out, if Coca Cola had sold 99 billion dollars worth they would have made over 22 billion. Which one of these companies would you say is gouging the consumer? It's human nature to want to blame someone else. It's Bush and Big Oil. It's certainly not our fault, so it must be somebody else. While I'm not a Bush fan, I have a hard time believing he controls the price of crude oil. It's simply supply and demand economics. The demand in this country is high, while the supply is low. Therefore we must buy crude oil from whoever has it, and pay what they want for it. In SL examples of gas prices a few posts back, the lowest prices were in countries with high supplies of crude oil and low demand of gas. Think there's any correlation? My point is, while big oil is making a lot of money, their profit on their product is not outrageously high. Like I said, if they lowered gas to a dollar a gallon and still made 10 billion, people wouldn't say they were gouging.


No, Bush does not control the price of crude oil. But he'll never do anything about it because their money paid his way into the Oval Office.

If they lowered gas to a dollar, people wouldn't say they were gouging because they wouldn't be gouging anymore!

Their profit isn't that high? It's higher than it's ever been. Lee Raymond is laughing all the way to the bank.
midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Shoals Lover:
Oil is necessary for industrial operations.

Coca-Cola is not.

BIG OIL has a history of defrauding investors and land owners from where they obtain their crude. Case in point: State of Alabama v. Exxon Mobile Corporation, which is Alabama's Breach of Contract and fraud claims against Exxon Mobil Corporation relating to oil and gas contract leases where in Exxon Mobile was found guilty of defrauding Alabama of $11.9 billion. That's $2,644 for every man, woman and child in Alabama.

Coca-Cola does not.

While Bush does not single-handedly control the price of crude oil, the political party of which he is titular head, at his behest, continues to enact legislation that permits the corporate ramrodding of business interests over and above those of families and consumers. Case in point: Enron, which was a complete defrauding and sham that lost billions of dollars from false and overstated profits, at the corporate and private investor levels. Meanwhile, while some retirees are now relegated to working menial jobs to survive, the Chief Executives remain living, loving and laughing in the lap of luxury, floating on their yachts in the Mediterranean.

To claim that "It's simply supply and demand economics" and that "the demand in this country is high, while the supply is low" as the exclusive problem is abysmally short-sighted.

Asserting that "the lowest prices were in countries with high supplies of crude oil and low demand of gas" does not account for the vast differences in price in other areas such as Scandinavian, European or Asian nations where gasoline approaches and exceeds $6 per gallon.

According to the law of supply and demand "when demand is greater than supply, prices rise and when supply is greater than demand, prices fall." If that maxim were true in this instance, the highest price ought to be in the United States. However, it it not.

So, any claim that "while big oil is making a lot of money, their profit on their product is not outrageously high" is not only absurd, it is exceedingly ignorant of the variances in global price and demand in oil and gasoline.



The question was "is BIG OIL gouging America?"
I said no and quoted figures to back up my position. You say yes but all I read to back up your position is a history lesson and your opinion. I'm not defending Exxon or accusing Coca Cola. These were just examples. If your so sure that BIG OIL is gouging America...convince me. How is Exxon gouging me by charging $2.30 a gallon? If they're gouging me at $2.30 what should the price be ? It's not rocket science, it's simple math...there's 43 gallons of crude oil per bbl. of which less than 20 gallons is refined into gasoline. The rest is used for other things we must have to keep this country going ie. jet fuel, diesel fuel, petrochemicals, lubricants, among other things. 1 gallon of crude oil makes 1 gallon of gasoline. At $60 per bbl. thats app. $1.40 per gallon.(60/43=1.395) If you start at $2.30 per gallon and then take off the .40 per gallon taxes and say .10 per gallon for the station, that leaves you at $1.80 per gallon. So now you have .40 to pay for refining, pipelines, tanker trucks, advertising, and anything else needed to get me to put that gas in my vehicle. And that's before they make any profit. So the gouging would have to take place in that .40 range. Your blind hatred of Bush,Republicans, and big business leads you to believe that Exxon and GB are masterminds of a super secret conspiracy to control the price of oil. I hate to break it to you but even if all the Republican leadership is replaced by Democrats, the price of a bbl. of crude oil is not going to drop significantly. The days of .30 gas are long gone.
midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
quote:
Originally posted by midknightrider:
According to their latest 10Q, Exxon sold 99 billion dollars worth of product. It cost them 81 billion to get their products to market. They gave the gov. 7.5 billion in taxes and got too keep the other 10.5 billion. So in the end, they sold 99 billion dollars worth and kept 10.5 billion. In my earlier post I used Coca Cola as an example. In their latest 10 Q they sold 6.5 billion dollars worth and kept 1.5 billion. If you extrapolate it out, if Coca Cola had sold 99 billion dollars worth they would have made over 22 billion. Which one of these companies would you say is gouging the consumer? It's human nature to want to blame someone else. It's Bush and Big Oil. It's certainly not our fault, so it must be somebody else. While I'm not a Bush fan, I have a hard time believing he controls the price of crude oil. It's simply supply and demand economics. The demand in this country is high, while the supply is low. Therefore we must buy crude oil from whoever has it, and pay what they want for it. In SL examples of gas prices a few posts back, the lowest prices were in countries with high supplies of crude oil and low demand of gas. Think there's any correlation? My point is, while big oil is making a lot of money, their profit on their product is not outrageously high. Like I said, if they lowered gas to a dollar a gallon and still made 10 billion, people wouldn't say they were gouging.


No, Bush does not control the price of crude oil. But he'll never do anything about it because their money paid his way into the Oval Office.

If they lowered gas to a dollar, people wouldn't say they were gouging because they wouldn't be gouging anymore!

Their profit isn't that high? It's higher than it's ever been. Lee Raymond is laughing all the way to the bank.


Re-read my original post. I never said they weren't making a lot of money. I said their profit as a percentage of sales was not very high. Is that true or false? If McDonalds sold 100 billion dollars worth of hamburgers wouldn't they expect to make at least 10 billion ? That's what I meant by "human nature".Most people wouldn't think 10% was too high, but they would think 10 billion is too high. If whomever wrote that article had said "Exxon made 10% profit this qtr." most people wouln't have a problem with that. But if the same person wrote "Exxon made 10 billion dollars this qtr." all of a sudden they're gouging us. I don't like paying high gas prices either, but I also don't think there is a conspiracy by big oil to gouge the American people.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by midknightrider:
Re-read my original post. I never said they weren't making a lot of money. I said their profit as a percentage of sales was not very high. Is that true or false? If McDonalds sold 100 billion dollars worth of hamburgers wouldn't they expect to make at least 10 billion ? That's what I meant by "human nature".Most people wouldn't think 10% was too high, but they would think 10 billion is too high. If whomever wrote that article had said "Exxon made 10% profit this qtr." most people wouln't have a problem with that. But if the same person wrote "Exxon made 10 billion dollars this qtr." all of a sudden they're gouging us. I don't like paying high gas prices either, but I also don't think there is a conspiracy by big oil to gouge the American people.


Okay, if the record breaking profits are not accurate due to production costs, tell me this. How are the oil executives "making out like bandits"? Where are "the most generous retirement packages in history" coming from? Americans used LESS gas because of the increase in price. So, if there was no price gouging, shouldn't someone be getting a cut in pay at Exxon? I'm not buying it.
midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
quote:
Originally posted by midknightrider:
Re-read my original post. I never said they weren't making a lot of money. I said their profit as a percentage of sales was not very high. Is that true or false? If McDonalds sold 100 billion dollars worth of hamburgers wouldn't they expect to make at least 10 billion ? That's what I meant by "human nature".Most people wouldn't think 10% was too high, but they would think 10 billion is too high. If whomever wrote that article had said "Exxon made 10% profit this qtr." most people wouln't have a problem with that. But if the same person wrote "Exxon made 10 billion dollars this qtr." all of a sudden they're gouging us. I don't like paying high gas prices either, but I also don't think there is a conspiracy by big oil to gouge the American people.


Okay, if the record breaking profits are not accurate due to production costs, tell me this. How are the oil executives "making out like bandits"? Where are "the most generous retirement packages in history" coming from? Americans used LESS gas because of the increase in price. So, if there was no price gouging, shouldn't someone be getting a cut in pay at Exxon? I'm not buying it.


I never said record breaking profits were inaccurate. The sordid history of Exxon or how much they pay their execs is irrelevant. The question was "is big oil gouging America?" Based on the figures, I say no. 10% is not to high. Apparently you think they shouldn't be allowed to make 10%. Why?
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
Good grief. Okay, forget the first sentence. How are oil executives "making out like bandits"? Where are "the most generous retirement packages in history" coming from? Americans used LESS gas because of the increase in price. So, if there was no price gouging, how is this possible?

I'm saying we're getting a mixed message. Somebody needs to ask why?
Last edited by _Joy_
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
It depends on what you consider gouging. As the price goes up it gets harder to get a tank of gas. The price of goods increases because shipping costs more. It's slowly making things harder for the average American, meanwhile we hear about record profits and extravagant retirement packages. When you're making more money while making life more difficult for the customers, that's gouging.
KindredKindredOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
It depends on what you consider gouging. As the price goes up it gets harder to get a tank of gas. The price of goods increases because shipping costs more. It's slowly making things harder for the average American, meanwhile we hear about record profits and extravagant retirement packages. When you're making more money while making life more difficult for the customers, that's gouging.


I could not agree more Nash!!
dkndknEverybody Knows My Name
I hope the next time a democrat gets eleceted president he/she is grilled over everything like W. It is just not possible to control everything. There is no magic wand that W can wave to make everything to everyone's liking. Oil prices are ridiculously high but bottled water is sold at $5-6 gallon. Oil prices are set on a percentage of what it costs to produce. We have had some crappy things happen that has caused the price of production to go up. It has also led to advancements in auto technologies that will eventually reduce the need for oil and bring the price back down. If you don't want to pay so much for gas go to journeytoforever.org or search alternative fuels and see if there is anything that you could do to make your own fuel. Biodiesel is easy to make.
KindredKindredOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by andrewm:
I hope the next time a democrat gets eleceted president he/she is grilled over everything like W. It is just not possible to control everything. There is no magic wand that W can wave to make everything to everyone's liking. Oil prices are ridiculously high but bottled water is sold at $5-6 gallon. Oil prices are set on a percentage of what it costs to produce. We have had some crappy things happen that has caused the price of production to go up. It has also led to advancements in auto technologies that will eventually reduce the need for oil and bring the price back down. If you don't want to pay so much for gas go to journeytoforever.org or search alternative fuels and see if there is anything that you could do to make your own fuel. Biodiesel is easy to make.


Crappy things??? You talking about "WAR" in the Middle east? I guess that could be considered crappy, eh? Roll Eyes And Anyone who runs and or gets to be President of the United States SHOULD step up to the plate and be grilled if necessary, ... I feel no sympathy for W because he put himself in that position from almost day one, back in the year 2000 when all that "crappy" stuff went on during the elections.

People are very unhappy with W because he has started so many new changes in our country that we have just sit back in our easy chairs and allowed to happen without doing anything... Dems NOR Reps...

People are unhappy with Oil prices and gas prices, well I bet W isn't a bit unhappy since he IS IN THAT BUSINESS and will go right back to it when he leaves office. You think he has a problem filling his gas tank to get to work??? Think he cares if we do? Roll Eyes And to tell you the truth, it is going to take this country too many years to count to straighten out the mess he has us in.

If nearly 70% of the people of this wonderful Nation believes like I do, then I guess the ones who don't just doesn't WANT to.

Bury your head if you want to, I refuse to.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by andrewm:
I hope the next time a democrat gets eleceted president he/she is grilled over everything like W. It is just not possible to control everything. There is no magic wand that W can wave to make everything to everyone's liking. Oil prices are ridiculously high but bottled water is sold at $5-6 gallon. Oil prices are set on a percentage of what it costs to produce. We have had some crappy things happen that has caused the price of production to go up. It has also led to advancements in auto technologies that will eventually reduce the need for oil and bring the price back down. If you don't want to pay so much for gas go to journeytoforever.org or search alternative fuels and see if there is anything that you could do to make your own fuel. Biodiesel is easy to make.


I'd prefer that no company gouge prices. Just because someone else is doing it doesn't make it right. However, when Big Oil makes money hand over fist while America suffers, not just at the pump but in buying from any company who had to raise their prices as a result of the price gouge, it warrants special attention.
KindredKindredOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
I'd prefer that no company gouge prices. Just because someone else is doing it doesn't make it right. However, when Big Oil makes money hand over fist while America suffers, not just at the pump but in buying from any company who had to raise their prices as a result of the price gouge, it warrants special attention.


Joy, you are right, ... I remember when it was ILLEGAL to gouge, but somehow or another, the laws have desensitized itself to that particular law, and everyone suffers.

But about the Oil/Gasoline, well, now that is just plain wrong. What we hear on the news, and what is 'real' are 2 different things. We are being gouged at the pumps, and so far, looks as though there is nothing we can do about it but to suffer.
midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Shoals Lover:
Oil is necessary for industrial operations.

Coca-Cola is not.

BIG OIL has a history of defrauding investors and land owners from where they obtain their crude. Case in point: State of Alabama v. Exxon Mobile Corporation, which is Alabama's Breach of Contract and fraud claims against Exxon Mobil Corporation relating to oil and gas contract leases where in Exxon Mobile was found guilty of defrauding Alabama of $11.9 billion. That's $2,644 for every man, woman and child in Alabama.

Coca-Cola does not.


So, if Exxon defrauded Alabamians once, they must be overcharging me at the pumps



Bush does not single-handedly control the price of crude oil, the political party of which he is titular head, at his behest, continues to enact legislation that permits the corporate ramrodding of business interests over and above those of families and consumers. Case in point: Enron, which was a complete defrauding and sham that lost billions of dollars from false and overstated profits, at the corporate and private investor levels. Meanwhile, while some retirees are now relegated to working menial jobs to survive, the Chief Executives remain living, loving and laughing in the lap of luxury, floating on their yachts in the Mediterranean.



Another anti-Bush tirade. While the Enron collapse was a terrible thing and the fact that some of their retirees are relegated to menial jobs while some of their execs are living in the lap of luxury is totally unfair, How does this prove you are being overcharged at the pump ?


To claim that "It's simply supply and demand economics" and that "the demand in this country is high, while the supply is low" as the exclusive problem is abysmally short-sighted.



To claim that supply and demand is irrelevant and Bush, his Republican cronies, and big oil is the main culprit behind high gas prices is extremely transparent.



Asserting that "the lowest prices were in countries with high supplies of crude oil and low demand of gas" does not account for the vast differences in price in other areas such as Scandinavian, European or Asian nations where gasoline approaches and exceeds $6 per gallon.



The low prices you quoted are all in high supply oil exporting countries. If you would do a little research you would know the price of gasoline is roughly the same worldwide in idustrialised nations. The tax rates are what accounts for the disparity in prices. For example,in London a few months back the price of gas was the equivilant of $6.30 per gallon. 65% of that price was tax. As a general rule of thumb, you can add $4 per gallon to the price of gas in the US to roughly estimate European prices.(countries such as England,France, Spain,Italy,Switzerland etc.)



According to the law of supply and demand "when demand is greater than supply, prices rise and when supply is greater than demand, prices fall." If that maxim were true in this instance, the highest price ought to be in the United States. However, it it not.


I would say you should thank oil technology for keeping prices comparibly low. One would think that if we were being gouged by big oil the prices would be much higher.



So, any claim that "while big oil is making a lot of money, their profit on their product is not outrageously high" is not only absurd, it is exceedingly ignorant of the variances in global price and demand in oil and gasoline.



What part of that statement is untrue ?
The last qtr. Exxon sold $96 billion worth of product.After taxes they kept $10.5 billion or 11%. Now which do you think is unfair, the 11% or the 10.5 billion ? Research companies like Merck, Mcdonalds or Pepsico, you'll find that their profit percentage was a lot higher. They just didn't sell as muchbecause we're not addicted to Big Macs like we are gasoline.


Let me say, I don't own any stock or have any vested interest in any oil company. I hate high gas prices as much as anybody else.But until someone shows me some concrete evidence to the contrary, I'm not going to pass the responsibility buck so quickly.

GOUGE: to extort or overcharge
To convince me we are being gouged at the pumps is going to take more than an article in a magazine or something heard on the TV.
To me, "i'm being hurt at the pump" + "oil companies are making record breaking profits and compensating their execs accordingly" + "Bush is in charge" therefore we must be getting screwed, is not a convincing argument.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
Bush being in charge has nothing to do with gas prices.

If the price of gas stayed about the same price or slowly increased and oil companies reported record breaking profits, that would mean consumers are buying more gas. When the price of gas skyrockets suddenly, people use less gas, and oil companies report record profits, that means they are earning more on the increased price and not usage. Oil companies know we have to have gas to get by and they continue to raise the price by reducing production. That is extorting the consumer who has no other choice of fuel, that is price gouging.
Shoals LoverShoals LoverHall of Famer
I must wonder if anyone read the articles linked to the post.

Today (12.8.06) I found some dead links and corrected them.

Plus, I don't recall having read anyone's quoting or citing from any of the articles.

The lead article, by Jeff Donn entitled "AP Analysis: Firms Crimping Oil Supplies" is about Shell Oil CLOSING perfectly good & productive refineries in Bakersfield California... THIS YEAR!

As well, some of the most condemning revelations include findings that discoveries of new reserves within the United States have kept dmoestic reserve levels relatively constant since 1999. About 9,800 oil wells were drilled last year alone.

Also, the number of domestically drilled wells in the U.S. dropped 59% from 1998-99, according to federal records. That corresponded directly to price increases during the same period.

And, a direct quote from the story: "A 2001 study by the Federal Trade Commission reported that some firms were deciding to "maximize their profits" by crimping supply during a Midwestern gasoline price spike. One executive told regulators "he would rather sell less gasoline and earn a higher margin on each gallon sold.""

And another direct quote from the story: "This year, the FTC reported that some oil companies were storing oil, instead of selling it right away, to await higher prices anticipated in the future."The industry has shelved an average of 21 percent more unrefined oil from the start of 2004 through last June, the AP analysis indicates. Last spring, stocks of shelved crude reached their highest level in eight years, despite the fabulous riches at hand in high prices then.

To add insult to injury, a report by the Federal Trade Commission on the issue stated in part that, "A decision to limit supply does not violate the antitrust laws, absent some agreement among firms."

That sure sounds reminiscent of collusion to me! How about you?

As well, since we're in a time of war, that's an EXCELLENT rational for the president to NATIONALIZE all oil in the United States! Is war not a national emergency? Or are we confused here? (I think there's an outstanding argument to say that we -our nation's leadership- are most definitely confused.)

So, I wonder... (especially for those whom defend BIG OIL and "free market" theories) has anyone actually READ the stories, or have most comments been based on something else, such as subjective opinion?

(Subjective opinion #1: I don't like neapolitan ice cream, though I do like vanilla, strawberry and chocolate ice creams.)
KindredKindredOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Bush being in charge has nothing to do with gas prices.

If the price of gas stayed about the same price or slowly increased and oil companies reported record breaking profits, that would mean consumers are buying more gas. When the price of gas skyrockets suddenly, people use less gas, and oil companies report record profits, that means they are earning more on the increased price and not usage. Oil companies know we have to have gas to get by and they continue to raise the price by reducing production. That is extorting the consumer who has no other choice of fuel, that is price gouging.


Nash,... You truly are a sweetheart, except when it comes to your SEEING Bush's shortcomings. I am convinced, 100% that he has a part in the gouging, ... for crying out loud, THAT is how he makes his REAL money, as does Cheney.

Bush/Cheney being in charge has EVERYTHING to do with it. Someday you shall see.
Shoals LoverShoals LoverHall of Famer
I wonder if anyone read the articles linked within the post.

Today (12.8.06) I discovered some dead links and corrected them.

And, I don't recall having read anyone's quoting or citing from any of the articles.

The lead article, by Jeff Donn entitled "AP Analysis: Firms Crimping Oil Supplies" is about Shell Oil CLOSING perfectly good & productive refineries in Bakersfield California... THIS YEAR!

As well, some of the most condemning revelations include findings that discoveries of new reserves within the United States have kept dmoestic reserve levels relatively constant since 1999. About 9,800 oil wells were drilled last year alone.

Also, the number of domestically drilled wells in the U.S. dropped 59% from 1998-99, according to federal records. That corresponded directly to price increases during the same period.

And, a direct quote from the story: "A 2001 study by the Federal Trade Commission reported that some firms were deciding to "maximize their profits" by crimping supply during a Midwestern gasoline price spike. One executive told regulators "he would rather sell less gasoline and earn a higher margin on each gallon sold.""

And another direct quote from the story: "This year, the FTC reported that some oil companies were storing oil, instead of selling it right away, to await higher prices anticipated in the future."The industry has shelved an average of 21 percent more unrefined oil from the start of 2004 through last June, the AP analysis indicates. Last spring, stocks of shelved crude reached their highest level in eight years, despite the fabulous riches at hand in high prices then.

To add insult to injury, a report by the Federal Trade Commission on the issue stated in part that, "A decision to limit supply does not violate the antitrust laws, absent some agreement among firms."

That sure sounds reminiscent of collusion to me! How about you?

As well, since we're in a time of war, that's an EXCELLENT rational for the president to NATIONALIZE all oil in the United States! Is war not a national emergency? Or are we confused here? (I think there's an outstanding argument to say that we -our nation's leadership- are most definitely confused.)

So, I wonder... (especially for those whom defend BIG OIL and "free market" theories) has anyone actually READ the stories, or have most comments been based on something else, such as subjective opinion?

(Subjective opinion #1: I don't like neapolitan ice cream, though I do like vanilla, strawberry and chocolate ice creams.)
KindredKindredOld Faithful
Collusion? Sure sounds like it to to me.

Yes, I just read what you wrote, and what makes the MOST sense to me right now, due to all that has taken place in the last couple of years, is that the Oil Companies ARE stockpiling. They are raising the rates so high that people can only use their vehicles to go to work, hence less mileage, less gas usage, so MORE STORAGE. Sounds like a conspiracy for a 'later date'... maybe when our "infamous" Oil Company Stock Holders who are currently in office, gets out of office so they are once again in the driver's seat... except it will be legal then. UGH.. I just cannot fathom why Americans are so targeted by other Americans (FINANCIALLY through OIL), it seems surreal.
Shoals LoverShoals LoverHall of Famer
IMO, there has been a very subtle deception which has crept into the American mindset, and in select Christian communities.

It is that, 'yes, you too, can be rich!'

You too, can be rich.

If you work hard enough, you can be part of the Great American Dream!

Not only can you own your own house, you can own others' houses too!

Yes, you too can be rich!

You can buy Gucci loafers and wear Jaeger LeCoultre watches (forget the Rolex crap), and drive Bentley automobiles while wearing full length mink, sable, ermine & chinchilla coats, silk undergarments, and linen clothing.

Your hands, wrists, necks, ears, toes, nose (and select private portions of your body) can be adorned with diamonds, pearls, emeralds encrusted in platinum and ensconced with 22 karat gold.

You can dine upon the finest caviar, the choicest, richest, most select beef, lamb with mint jelly, French Champagne, and exotic dishes the world over... the veritable fat of the land.

If you're poor, it's your own fault, you lazy slob!

All this can be yours... and your soul in the process.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Bush being in charge has nothing to do with gas prices.

If the price of gas stayed about the same price or slowly increased and oil companies reported record breaking profits, that would mean consumers are buying more gas. When the price of gas skyrockets suddenly, people use less gas, and oil companies report record profits, that means they are earning more on the increased price and not usage. Oil companies know we have to have gas to get by and they continue to raise the price by reducing production. That is extorting the consumer who has no other choice of fuel, that is price gouging.


Nash,... You truly are a sweetheart, except when it comes to your SEEING Bush's shortcomings. I am convinced, 100% that he has a part in the gouging, ... for crying out loud, THAT is how he makes his REAL money, as does Cheney.

Bush/Cheney being in charge has EVERYTHING to do with it. Someday you shall see.


Ok then, show me some proof so I shall see.
midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
According to the Energy Information Administration as of 10 October 2006:
2.25 (avg. price per gallon)
- 1.30 (crude oil)
- .47 (taxes)
- .24 (distributing & marketing)
-----
.24 (refining & profit)= turning crude oil into gasoline and making money.

I'll be conservative sinice I couln't find any definative figures to break down refining & profit. If it costs .05 per gallon to refine it and the man that owns the gas station gets .05, that would leave you with .14 per gallon profit.

Now it doesn't matter if your selling gasoline or hamburgers, having $1.64 in a product and selling it for $1.78, I don't consider gouging.
If anyone is gouging the public it's the government with taxes. I don't understand why we give the government .47 and give the oil companies .14 and holler that the oil companies are gouging us.

Forget all your preconceived notions about Bush and big business and explain why you
think that's gouging. People that believe they're getting gouged either think:
A. Oil companies shouldn't be allowed to make .14 per gallon
B. All these figures are lies
or
C. The Bush administration and big oil companies are colluding to keep the price of crude oil up.

If it's A...that's not much mark-up on your product (you proably wouldn't make a very good businessman)
If it's B...do your own research, get some figures you believe and post them.
If it's C...To think Bush and big oil have that much influence over the global price of crude oil is, in the words of SL, abysmally short sighted. (do some research and find out how oil markets work)


I'm not trying to defend anybody but at the same time I have an open mind on the suject.
If, when Hillary is elected and gas drops back to $1.00 a gallon, I'll be the first one on here to say "YOU WERE RIGHT".
midknightridermidknightriderHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
Midnightrider, just read all the replies on here because we have already covered everything you wrote.

Sorry Confused



I've read all the posts in this thread. I don't see thing that covers this. All I see is people that need a soapbox to stand on while they spew their anti-Bush venom. So I'll ask a simple question and see if I get any answers:

Why,at $2.25, do you think you are being gouged (overcharged) ?

What do you think you should be paying?
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